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March 19, 2009

Split Decision on House of Detention

Yesterday's decision in State Supreme Court regarding the future of the Brooklyn House of Detention had something in it for both sides: The city expressed pleasure with the ruling that allows it to resume operating the 759-bed jail as it did prior to closing it in 2003. (It's been operating it on at a reduced capacity since last November.) Neighborhood activists and politicians who have been speaking out against the city's plan to double the jail's capacity in a half-billion-dollar build-out were happy with the part of the decision that required any future expansion to be prefaced by environmental and land use reviews. The lawyer for the opponents, Randy Mastro, called the ruling “a huge victory for the community and a vindication of its right to meaningful public input before the city commits itself to such massive projects.” Opposition group Stop BHOD and other community groups and public officials will be holding a protest on the steps of City Hall tomorrow at 11:30 a.m.
Court Allows Brooklyn Jail to Reopen [NY Times]
Judge Clears Reopening of Brooklyn Jail [NYT/City Room]
Brooklyn House of Detention Can Reopen, Judge Rules [NY Daily News]
Judge: City can reopen House of D [Brooklyn Paper]
Judge Reopens Jail Doors [Brooklyn Eagle]

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Comments

You know something? I was thinking about the Brooklyn HOD when the story-- Drug dealing hot spot in Crown Heights. Hey Retards you can't have it both ways! We want the cops to enforce the law but, don't use the Jail Facility in my neighborhood.

The Assheads use Hypocrisy to it's fullest!

The What

Someday this war is gonna end...

Posted by: Return of The What at March 19, 2009 9:08 AM

What, I agree with you on this one.

Posted by: TownhouseLady at March 19, 2009 9:14 AM

Wow, yeah. Totally spot-on observation by The What...

Posted by: Brownstonerlogin at March 19, 2009 9:16 AM

What, as someone who lives in Brooklyn Heights, obviously the thought of having this facility doesn't thrill me. Just like it wouldn't thrill anybody to have it in their neighbourhood. But if I am being objective, the location does seem to make sense given it's proximity to the courts. It's hard to justify having it in another location.

Posted by: Biff Champion at March 19, 2009 9:18 AM

Gotta go with the What on this one. I walked by this place about a dozen times before I even knew what it was!!! It isn't all that residential in this location and can certainly be added to without any "environmental impact." What are they talking about??? A few more shuttle buses to the courts????

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at March 19, 2009 9:24 AM

quote:

What, as someone who lives in Brooklyn Heights, obviously the thought of having this facility doesn't thrill me. Just like it wouldn't thrill anybody to have it in their neighbourhood.

dont be so quick to assume.

*rob*

Posted by: PitbullNYC at March 19, 2009 9:26 AM

Would be strange if Brooklyn Bridge Park gets tied up in years of environmental review and litigation, and the same would not be true of a project to double the size of a jail.

Posted by: bklynite at March 19, 2009 9:27 AM

"What, as someone who lives in Brooklyn Heights, obviously the thought of having this facility doesn't thrill me. "

Biff I know the Brooklyn HOD is a problem for some residents but The whole court system is right there. What are you gonna do? You want crime or you want facilities to house and process criminals???

Guys you can't have it both ways...

The What (Oh look they are dispensing the Meds)

Someday this war is gonna end...

Posted by: Return of The What at March 19, 2009 9:30 AM

Rob, I'm not sure of your point. Are you saying you would be happy to have this near you?

What, I'm completely in agreement with you. It makes perfect sense to have the facility located exactly where it is and I've stated that every time I've commented on the topic. My point is I don't think anybody in any neighbourhood would necessary WANT this is their backyard or be thrilled to live near it, but I can't argue against it being there for the exact reason you state, i.e., the whole court system is right there.

Posted by: Biff Champion at March 19, 2009 9:41 AM

Biff - he doesn't just want it nearby, he wants to be able to pop in and out of it at will. You've got to think like a Rob.

Posted by: dittoburg at March 19, 2009 9:44 AM

What is right- more so because other than being a really ugly building, the BHOD has never caused any trouble to the neighborhood.There are no hordes of ravening prisoners rushing through the streets, mobs of family and friends infiltration the neighborhood and holding up stores and tots at gunpoint, or wild west shootouts. The only problem seems to be it offends the delicate sensibilities of some of its residents. I lived a block and a half away for over 20 years. There were no problems.

Posted by: bxgrl at March 19, 2009 10:04 AM

as another nearby resident who could never understand all this kneejerk reaction against reopening (including all those politicians i.e. Yassky et al). As I've written before - biggest annoyance is the parking permit employees of court and correction system.
Yet - a bit leery of doubling size of facility because usually ends up be major boondoggle of cost overruns and decade of construction.

Posted by: Petebklyn at March 19, 2009 10:10 AM

I've always enjoyed these HOD discussions when they pop up, but have never commented before. It looks like the pro-HOD crowd is making the early noise, so I'd like to get a few points going for the other side.

1. The HOD will be a negative for the surrounding businesses and real estate. I don't think this is really debatable. What is debatable is: a) how bad it will be and b) whether that's irrelevant because it's still justifiable given proximity to courthouses, lack of suitable replacements, etc.

2. I think that given the current economic situation, it's especially damaging for the city given: a) the cost of renovating/expanding; b) the foregone revenue on selling the valuable parcel of land and relocating to a cheaper venue and c) the foregone tax revenue from all the side effects of the HOD's presence/expansion - such as: less property taxes associated with declining property values, and less business taxes associated with less business revenues.

I've been reading this board long enough to know that these arguments have already been made (as have the opposing arguments). But one point that I haven't seen raised regards the issue of proximity to the courthouses. This seems to be a big argument on the pro-HOD side: i.e. 'it's the only logical location for the HOD, it doesn't make sense to bus people across the borough, etc' To me, this argument seems really superfluous. Ever since when did it become a logistical requirement that holding facilities be within walking distances of the courthouses? What percentage of holding facilities in this country enjoy that setup? And further, what are we talking about when we say added congestion/expense of busing people? Two extra buses a day on roads already clogged with hundreds of thousands other vehicles? I just don't see how this argument should be a factor when you consider all the other overriding economic concerns.

Thanks to anyone who took the time to read this far.

Posted by: Brooklyn Gent at March 19, 2009 10:12 AM

So if not there then where? Who's backyard should it be in? If it will have a negative impact who's area would you like to see impacted?

Posted by: TownhouseLady at March 19, 2009 10:23 AM

wow, what an HOD-friendly crowd!
Everyone gets political-correctness brownie points.
Yipeee!

Posted by: Mrs de Dough at March 19, 2009 10:25 AM

This ruling seems completely sensible: they can reopen as is, but if they want to expand, they have to go through the usual channels.

Posted by: Brooklyn Chicken at March 19, 2009 10:26 AM

Brooklyn Gent let me guess. You just flew into JFK with your backpack from Spokane Wash, Right???

"What percentage of holding facilities in this country enjoy that setup? And further, what are we talking about when we say added congestion/expense of busing people? "

This is a moot point! The buildings are up! WTF is wrong with people??!!!! Brooklyn HOD is there Already!!!!!! My GOD I'm in the Bizarro world

Brooklyn Gent you just penned a nice POS. I hope your edmukation goes a long way with common and street sense...

The What (COFFEE!!!!)

Someday this war is gonna end...

Posted by: Return of The What at March 19, 2009 10:27 AM

do i detect a note of self-deprecating humour in the What's posts here?

Posted by: vanessa at March 19, 2009 10:35 AM

bklyngent-

If the HOD had such a negative impact on the area explain to me how those neighborhoods have still mamnaged to become among the most expensive and desirable in NYC? I watched my neighborhood change over the years- always improving. No one gave a rat's ass for the BHOD because it had no ral impact. Especially not on real estate values. So yours is a false argument. Its not as if the BHOD was plopped down 5 months ago. In fact vistors and staff have long supported local businesses because they patronize eateries and other stores in the neighborhood.

The idea that the real estate is so valuable the HOD should be moved to a neighborhood with lesser values begs the question- you mean it's OK to put it in a poorer neighborhood? My present neighborhood already has far more than its fair share of city services, many of them on residential, family occupied blocks.

Many arguments have been made re transport and proximity to the courts. I think you should go back and read them because they are valid.

Posted by: bxgrl at March 19, 2009 10:35 AM

Vanessa, I think you might be right.

Posted by: dittoburg at March 19, 2009 10:44 AM

oof! crappy typing- sorry about the misspellings.

Posted by: bxgrl at March 19, 2009 10:52 AM

WOW...bxgrl & What essentially agreeing. This is reasonenough for a party!!!!

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at March 19, 2009 10:53 AM

As the universe gasps in shock, I also have to agree with the What, here. Bxgrl and others are also right, aside from being a fugly building, the BHOD has not been a source of contention to the safety or quality of life there. It makes perfect sense for it to be there, and it should remain there.

Posted by: Montrose Morris at March 19, 2009 10:53 AM

ALERT * ALERT * ALERT * ALERT * ALERT *

MM, bxgrl and The What AGREE! FULL STOP!

ALERT THE MEDIA! FULL STOP!

Posted by: cobblehiller at March 19, 2009 11:03 AM

why are you people tormenting me??????

Posted by: bxgrl at March 19, 2009 11:09 AM

quote:

So if not there then where? Who's backyard should it be in? If it will have a negative impact who's area would you like to see impacted

tear down the bank on the corner of 5th avenue and 1st street. stick it there. right next to me! scaredy cats.

*r*

Posted by: PitbullNYC at March 19, 2009 11:11 AM

A lot of people who have actually lived in the neighborhood for more than 10 min agree with bxgrl and what on this. The neighborhood improved with the HOD there and open. And then developers stepped in to take advantage of it with the "luxury" condo boom.

Posted by: BH76 at March 19, 2009 11:12 AM

"you people"

Is that code?

Posted by: cobblehiller at March 19, 2009 11:18 AM

Wow nice job by the judiciary....perfect compromise in these recessionary times - it makes ZERO sense to close a recently upgraded facility ($85M) yet it makes even less sense to essentially throw out the $85M upgrade and drop another 400M on a facility that hasnt even been used in years. The land use/environmental reviews will essentially kill the expansion - the reopening will allow the city to begin to amortize the cost of the recent upgrades (and maybe even save some on transport costs).

I am not familiar with Justice Sylvia O. Hinds-Radix but she deserves credit on this one!

Posted by: fsrg at March 19, 2009 11:20 AM

"Brooklyn Gent let me guess. You just flew into JFK with your backpack from Spokane Wash, Right???"

How'd you guess, What? I just flew in, and while I'm sitting here at the terminal waiting for the wallet inspector to come back, I thought it would be an exciting experience (something to write home to my folks on the farm about) to get into a discussion on a brooklyn centric real estate blog.

Ok, I guess it can be argued whether the HOD has a negative impact on the neighborhood. I think that it does, having lived here from 2000-2002 and moved back last year. But to those of you who insist that it doesn't, how can you also raise the argument that it's not fair to put it in another neighborhood? I mean, if it really makes no difference, then why do you care? By the way, I'm not advocating that it be moved to a poorer neighborhood, per se, but a less residential one. The corrections department sold a suitable piece of land in the navy yard a few years back, if I remember correctly, but I believe that there are still other cheap, far less residential areas in Brooklyn available.

Bxgrl, I've been reading these arguments for a while, and I can't honestly remember anyone responding to a point like the one that I made regarding the transportation situation.

Posted by: Brooklyn Gent at March 19, 2009 11:30 AM

"But to those of you who insist that it doesn't, how can you also raise the argument that it's not fair to put it in another neighborhood? I mean, if it really makes no difference, then why do you care? By the way, I'm not advocating that it be moved to a poorer neighborhood, per se, but a less residential one.

OK Dumbasses I'm tired of going back and forth. The Brooklyn HOD never closed, they just reduced the population while the remolding was going on. I you look in there the facility is fully operational because some inmates cases are going on right now and it would be a logistical nightmare going back to Rykers every night.

Note to Retards: The Brooklyn HOD is not moving, not closing down and will be back to full operations when crime spikes again!

The corrections department sold a suitable piece of land in the navy yard a few years back, if I remember correctly, but I believe that there are still other cheap, far less residential areas in Brooklyn available."

That property belong to the US Government not the NYC Department of Corrections. Why in the F**** would the city build a new jail when one is right there???????????!!!!!!!!!

The What (I'm Done)

Someday this war is gonna end

Posted by: Return of The What at March 19, 2009 11:45 AM

The facility has been there forever but somehow it has never grown on people. It is just such an alien presence in the streetscape. Designed and built at the very lowest point of American urban awareness and sensitivity. I'm sure it is obsolete in terms of the interior layout and securty.
It is just an unloved building. Even corrections abandoned it years ago. I have a feeling this saga will continue.

Posted by: Mrs de Dough at March 19, 2009 11:56 AM

The jail is convenient to the nearby criminal courts buildings, some of which have been around for more than 70 years ... the building on Schermerhorn comes to mind. The jail services the nearby court buildings, and is in a central location, easy to access by all means of public transportation. [See Rikers Island for a jail facility that's truly a bitch to get to, even via private car.] Sure, one could build a jail in another part of Kings County. But add up all the new construction costs, the usual NIMBY litigation, and all the diesel fuel wasted by transporting prisoners from somewhere else in Brooklyn to the court complex downtown ... and you're talking AIG bonus money, baby!

Posted by: 5w30 at March 19, 2009 12:20 PM

corrections can hardly be said to have abandoned a building they spent millions on renovating. They - as What correctly points out- downsized the population but it never actually closed.

As far as it being built at the lowest level of urban awareness and sensitivity- huh? In point of fact it was put where it made the most sense and it was the neighborhood that changed around it. What is this "grow on people?" It's certainly no uglier or alien than much of the new architecture being thrown up all over Brooklyn. Less glass, truly ugly lobby, but considering what's going up, I think it fits right in.

brooklyngent- I do care where it goes. I live in a neighborhood that's an afterthought to the Mayor. He treats us like a storage room where you stick everything you want out of sight. It makes no economic sense to move the facility or build a new one somewhere else. Not economically, nor ecologically. YOu would have to go way back in the archives to see some of the arguments ajbout transport. I think it was gman who made very good points in that.

Posted by: bxgrl at March 19, 2009 12:25 PM

Had to join in solely because of the unusual and unprecedented coalition developing on this thread and I thought I should join. I once worked with an environmental lawyer in Philadelphia who told me the best way to make sure a facility that might pose an environmental hazard is run cleanly is to place it in Chestnut Hill (DIBS can tell you, but it is a neighborhood of residents comparable to BH living in beautiful old stone houses to rival the best frame victorians in VF). I can't imagine where we would want the HOD other than right next to the courts and under the watchful eyes of some of the City's most vigilant and perhaps overentitled neighbors (sorry, Biff, I don't mean you). Relocate it to some neighborhod that doesn't advocate for itself with quite the same ardor, effectiveness or clout and with the added risk of long busrides of suspected criminals (snarled in AY construction-induced traffic no doubt) and the like, and the risks attendant to operating the HOD would undoubtedly increase.

Posted by: slopefarm at March 19, 2009 12:29 PM

"The facility has been there forever but somehow it has never grown on people. It is just such an alien presence in the streetscape. Designed and built at the very lowest point of American urban awareness and sensitivity. I'm sure it is obsolete in terms of the interior layout and securty."

GROWN on people?? "Alien presence???" It's a JAIL for LOCKING PEOPLE UP! It's not SUPOSED to "grow" on anyone!! Man, I really have to agree with the What! What in God's name are some of you thinking?? It's been there as a jail- for generations - and the surrounding neighborhood has IMPROVED in that time.

Posted by: East New York at March 19, 2009 12:29 PM

"1. The HOD will be a negative for the surrounding businesses and real estate. I don't think this is really debatable."

By the way Gent, it IS certainly debatable, you are undoubtedly wrong, and you clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

Posted by: East New York at March 19, 2009 12:38 PM

I grew up in Brooklyn Heights, still live there. I've barely noticed the HOD, ever.

It's always been there but I can never remember a time when it was controversial until it "closed" (of all the ironies).

It was/is what it is, a detention center located right next to the courts. Been there for years and never posed a problem. I don't see it posing one now.

I also think all the "stop the HOD" people are new to the area. If they aren't then where was their righteous indignation for the decades it was in operation?

And if the HOD is so bad how about the Bail Bonds and Attorney businesses that kept that intersection alive before Brooklyn Industries (extra points for anyone who remembers what was in that corner retail spot forever before Bklyn Indust.)

I don't care if they re-open it. If they want to spend $400 mil, "projected", to expand I have a problem with that. That $400 mil will double before we know it and it'll be a pit of cash.

Re-open it as is and I bet 12 months later no one will even realize it is fully operational.

Posted by: christopher at March 19, 2009 12:43 PM

I seem to remember one HOD thread where someone complained that the Bail Bonds and Attorney businesses were bad for the neighborhood. That one was good for a laugh. It's amazing how people with a little money have such an outsized sense of entitlement.

Posted by: bxgrl at March 19, 2009 12:47 PM

Christopher, It was a Scuba shop that was there forever. I have lived in Cobble Hill all my life, my business is within a block of the HOD. We do business with the people who work there (it is true they never really closed). I Remember when it did close most of its operation, the original owner of St Claire diner was lamenting the closing saying they got a ton of business from people visiting the Jail. I wont repeat the reasons why its not really going to matter if they fully open and expand, everyone is making a fine argument already.

Posted by: lifer at March 19, 2009 1:10 PM

I dont think it will be the end of the world. The Manhattan HOD is much more high profile, and it doesnt really disturb the neighborhood.

Posted by: slick at March 19, 2009 1:12 PM

BTW - incorrect information the Brooklyn HOD was CLOSED to inmates for approximately 4 years before November - that is NO PRISONERS

Which I find disgraceful since they spent 85M fixing it up - the sooner they either reopen it fully or sell the parcel (the only too remotely legitimate options) the better.

Posted by: fsrg at March 19, 2009 1:16 PM

Man those Brownsville folks got it made! now they can get out of their project and move up to a desirable neighborhood. And the Fulton Mall is so close for when they get their $100 and released.

Posted by: Billiamsburg at March 19, 2009 1:24 PM

I hope Yassky, Joann Simon and all the other whiners are ready the comments from here today.

Posted by: Petebklyn at March 19, 2009 1:51 PM

lifer,
YES! I loved that scuba shop. Growing up the only place I ever say a kayak was in that window. And the mannequin with all the scuba gear? Brilliant.

That shop was there forever and I was bummed when they closed.

Posted by: christopher at March 19, 2009 2:16 PM

I agree w/bxgirl and others... This thing has been here for as long as I remember. It's not like they just built it. It's a wart in the nabe that you're just going to have to love, and over time you will forget about it. I think it's highly unlikely that axe maniacs are going to escape from there and run across the street into Brooklyn Industries to hold shoppers hostage. (Although maybe good idea if they did - KIDDING!!) And I know some people won't like this, but I think it's "better" to have the facility in a functioning nabe next to the courthouse than relegated to a borderline, struggling nabe that wouldn't need any new problems.

Posted by: meerkatz at March 19, 2009 2:42 PM

Oh wait! I thought of another snarky comment... Sorry I didn't think of it earlier. They should totally convert it to condos, since the architecture is way nicer than a lot of the crap that's been going up. ;)

Posted by: meerkatz at March 19, 2009 2:44 PM

The old Navy yard Brig was originally owned by the US Government and turned over to the City. It was old dilapidated and not near the State Courts. It had to be rebuilt anyway.
I live in the neighborhood of the HOD for 30 years, it never has been a serious problem except for parking. There was one escape and the person immediately left the area- no one stays in the area they escape from. But there have been occasional problems with visitors to the jail(they also visit the court as well and that isn't going any place)
Yes some luxury housing was built across the street(on a site that would have made an excellent expansion place for the jail and the court). They are the big complainers about this as are the newly built single family houses on State Street.

I would prefer if it wasn't expanded however. The employees will park where ever they want and while they will patronize some of the businesses, the newer businesses aren't for them(or for me for that matter)

BUT no neighborhood wants a new jail. When people say move it somewhere cheaper they are really saying is move it some place poorer(more minority). That's not happening either. Also the cost of construction doesn't change only the cost of the land which here the City already owns. There is an additional cost if you move it somewhere else-transportation and pollution costs increase.

Posted by: smeyer418 at March 19, 2009 3:06 PM

"GROWN on people?? "Alien presence???" It's a JAIL for LOCKING PEOPLE UP! It's not SUPOSED to "grow" on anyone!! Man, I really have to agree with the What! What in God's name are some of you thinking?? It's been there as a jail- for generations - and the surrounding neighborhood has IMPROVED in that time."

See East New York!! You thought I was crazy, right. The retards on Brownstoner are a sight to behold. They take stupidity to a new level...

The What

Someday this war is gonna end..

Posted by: Return of The What at March 19, 2009 3:10 PM

So when a boutique on Atlantic selling $600 Mark Jacobs pumps fails, brooklyn gent and others will blame the HOD and not the economy and the diminishing number of 25 year-olds making $150K plus bonus. Those of use who have lived in the neighborhood all along know better...

Posted by: BH76 at March 19, 2009 3:20 PM

BH76- on another one of the HOD threads, someone mentioned that the HOD shold be moved because now BH, CH and CG were real neighborhoods. Makes me wonder what they think these neighborhoods were before? Skateboards?

Posted by: bxgrl at March 19, 2009 3:42 PM

"The retards on Brownstoner are a sight to behold. They take stupidity to a new level..."

No kidding! I have read MORE stupid, uninformed, inane, ignorant and insulting comments here on Brownstoner than anywhere else in my entire experience. It really is amazing sometimes!

Posted by: East New York at March 19, 2009 5:06 PM

"BH76- on another one of the HOD threads, someone mentioned that the HOD shold be moved because now BH, CH and CG were real neighborhoods. Makes me wonder what they think these neighborhoods were before? Skateboards?"

Posted by: bxgrl at March 19, 2009 3:42 PM

Really? That is ridiculous and ignorant. BH, CH, and CG were "real neighborhoods" back in 1913 when my grandmother arrived. There were "real neighborhoods" when it was built. They are "real" today.

I know you didn't say it bxgrl, just can't believe it was said.

I said it once and I'll say it again, they city could bring it back to full capacity without telling anyone and no one would know the difference.

The HOD hasn't hurt the neighborhoods since it was built, it wont hurt then now.

Posted by: christopher at March 19, 2009 6:52 PM

Top salary for CO's is about 95K WITHOUT overtime. They reach it in only five years and most of the CO's working in the Brooklyn House have more than five years on the job. Welcome them back to the hood. They will probably be the only ones left who can afford to buy $600 Mark Jacobs pumps!

Posted by: Just Wondering at March 19, 2009 7:55 PM

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March 19, 2009

Split Decision on House of Detention

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