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March 25, 2009

Widespread Support for Three New Brooklyn Landmarks

Ocean-On-The-Park-0309.jpg
The Landmarks Preservation Commission held hearings on three potential new Brooklyn locations yesterday. First up was the four-building complex associated with the William Ulmer Brewery in Bushwick. All of the seven people who spoke—including a representative from both Councilmember Reyna's office and the Municipal Art Society, Simeon Bankoff from the Historic Districts Council and Ward Dennis from the Waterfront Preservation Alliance. A similar line-up of North Brooklyn folks also unanimously supported the creation of the Fillmore Place Historic District, a 29-building, one-block stretch of Williamsburg. When it came to the Ocean on the Park Historic District (pictured above), more than 20 people spoke; only two—the owners of 189 and 211 Ocean Avenue—came out against it. The dates for the commission's votes on the three matters have yet to be set.
Big Day Coming Up for Brooklyn at Landmarks [Brownstoner]
Public Hearing Agenda 3/24/09 [LPC]




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surprised you didn't pick up on this article yesterdays NYTimes about residents in Chicago trying to prevent landmark status.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/24/us/24landmark.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=landmarks%20chicago&st=cse

Posted by: Petebklyn at March 25, 2009 9:51 AM

It was a great day at the LPC yesterday for the Ocean on the Park HD campaign! We are grateful for the overwhelming support we received from so many sources at the hearing, both by way of in person testimony and written submissions. We're especially appreciative of the support from our sister HDs and preservation groups in Lefferts Manor, Ditmas Park, Prospect Park South, Crown Heights and the Flatbush Development Corporation (a neighborhood preservation coalition repping all of Victorian Flatbush). Montrose Morris, btw, did an outstanding presentation on behalf of the Crown Heights North Assn.! Thanks extra much, MM, as well as other Brownstoner regulars, Bob Marvin and Babs for your great testimonies!

Thanks also, Jon, for keeping this matter in the public sphere with your consistent coverage -- from the initial sale of #185 Ocean to a demolition happy developer to yesterday's public hearing on historic district designation. Hopefully, we'll have a favorable outcome from the LPC in the near future which will protect these 12 houses on the southeastern border of Prospect Park from further destruction.

Posted by: Brooklynista at March 25, 2009 10:59 AM

Is the house next to 185 included in the landmark?

I had always assumed that only the limestones would be protected. There are a couple of brick buildings of zero architectural significance on the northern part of this strip.
I can only hope no one is in favor of protecting them...

Posted by: slick at March 25, 2009 11:28 AM

You are welcome, Brooklynista, it was my pleasure. Since I got there early, I listened to all of the testimony for all three potential landmarks, and it was fascinating, all around. Kudos to everyone associated with all three.

The brewery complex is a no brainer. This part of Brooklyn's industrial past is almost obliterated. These buildings are iconic and important. I hope they are saved.

On first look, the Fillmore Place houses are not impressive. Ordinary middle class enclaves usually aren't. But upon seeing the report, and especially from hearing the testimony of residents and experts, this block is indeed special and worthy. I wish them well.

Of course the Ocean on the Park Houses are worthy. They should have been included in the original PLG designation, as that would have saved 185. I certainly do feel for the owners of 189, they seem to have been royally screwed by circumstances beyond their control, and I hope they are able to win any lawsuit against the owner of 185. But I fully understand the desire to landmark the entire row, including the two remaining brick houses. They have the same setback, and add to the continuity of the rest of the row. The owner of 211, unfortunately for him, didn't have a leg to stand on. But his right to be heard and put on the record is meaningful to the process, and he is entitled to his feelings and opinions. I think he will lose, however.

I couldn't get out of work to attend the Crown Heights North hearings, two years ago,so I was really glad to see the process in action. When we go up for the remaining phases of our landmarking process, I'll be there.

Posted by: Montrose Morris at March 25, 2009 12:04 PM

On Ocean Ave., what was the argument made by the owners of 211 and 189 . . .

Posted by: ontheparkway at March 25, 2009 12:27 PM

"I certainly do feel for the owners of 189, they seem to have been royally screwed by circumstances beyond their control, and I hope they are able to win any lawsuit against the owner of 185."

Empathy is a laudable emotion but should be spared for the truly deserving. Were it not for the actions of the owners of 189, 185 would still be standing, a well-liked family and their tenant would still live there and the movement to create the HD would not have gotten the spark it needed from the destruction of 185. The owners of 189 are truly unusually awful people who dug there own grave - may they rot in it for eternity.

Posted by: FlatbushMan23 at March 25, 2009 1:08 PM

Both 211 and 189 Ocean owners insisted that landmarking would cause them financial hardship. While I do feel for the owners of 189, their argument that no-one will ever want to live in their house as a one-family house because of the monstrosity to be built next door seems rather weak considering that the developer of the lot at 185 has listed it for sale (and taken it off the market again, apparently) and the fact that they had listed their own house for sale as a development site at a price of something like $3 million. And they had this obnoxious Brooklyn Heights lawyer who called the house drek and said there was no way it should be landmarked. Most offensive was the owner's contention that the house did not deserve to be landmarked because no-one of note had ever lived there, only a postmaster and a doctor! Considering that one of Fillmore Place's reasons for proposed landmarking is its look into the lives of ordinary people, I doubt that argument will fly! And I won't even address Mathieu Eugene's support with the caveat that those poor people at 189 Ocean be spared.

The owner of 211, unfortunately, just seemed clueless. He seems to want desperately to sell to a developer but doesn't realize that 1. No developer would buy just one house and 2. That ship has sailed in any case, for the moment. He actually used the coming development of Atlantic Yards (as if!) as an argument that he be allowed to sell his house to a developer.

But yes, MM (I didn't realize that was you!), thank you for your eloquent and moving words. Here's hoping all of thouse houses get approved!

Posted by: babs at March 25, 2009 1:31 PM

Thank you FlatbushMan23; I didin't want to mention that, but basically they got what they deserve...

Posted by: babs at March 25, 2009 1:32 PM

Slick,

The presentation yesterday, by an LPC staff member, makes it clear that the Commission considers the "Federal Revival-style house at No. 191... [and] No. 189, a brick row house in the Arts and Crafts style" to be integral parts of the row. IIRC almost all the speakers yesterday [myself included]were in favor of designating the ENTIRE row, the exceptions being the owner of #211, who opposed the HD designation in it's entirety for the classic [IMO mis-informed] reasons, the owner of 189, and two others [who, I'm told, are her mother-in-law and her lawyer] who want that house excluded because of alleged difficulties regarding the development of the lot to their north, and a representative of Councilman Eugene, who also supports excluding #189.

Posted by: Bob Marvin at March 25, 2009 2:02 PM

OK, maybe this is a little inside baseball but I don't get some stuff on Ocean Ave. . .
What did 189 owners possibly do to push 185 to sell/demolish?
Why wouldn't someone want to buy 189 because it's a nice house right across from the park, regardless of condos next door?
On 211, ditto, the place should be a gold mine, landmarked or no, right?

Posted by: ontheparkway at March 25, 2009 2:24 PM

"Why wouldn't someone want to buy 189 because it's a nice house right across from the park, regardless of condos next door?"

I don't understand that either "ontheparkway."

Regarding #211, many people seem to think that landmarking lowers property values, despite evidence to the contrary.I don't understand that either. I know that I'm really glad that my house is in an Historic District

For the rest, I have only hearsay, which I will not repeat.

Posted by: Bob Marvin at March 25, 2009 2:31 PM

otp, you are completely right about 211 being a gold mine, but its owner doesn't see it that way. He's still thinkinghe can sell out now to a developer for $2 million or so, vs. selling it as a nice, landmarked house for maybe $1 million less. And considering that they've owned the house since around 1998 or so, that doesn't sound too bad. But it's not the magic number dangled in front of them by greedy developers in 2007.

It also seems like this owner has been listening to the "It's my house and I can do what I want with it" types who are completely against any form of landmarking. Mostly these people simply aren't aware that landmarked houses generally sell for more than their non-landmarked counterparts. Unfortunately there are a number of these types on my block in the PLG hisotric district (not in the Manor) and it's really distressing to see what they inflict on their houses.

Once landmarked, these houses might actually go for more than those in the Manor -- they are as large (or larger than some), are not bound by the one-family covenant, and are closer to both the park and the trains.

189 basically made life so hellish for the owners of 185 that they gave in and moved far away. They didn't push anyone to demolish -- 185 was simply bought by a developer after a drive-by (he didn't even get out to look inside). Unfortunately for them that developer's approved plans include on-site outdoor parking making 189's backyard much less pleasant and a cantilevered overhang over 189's portion of the driveway that would block a lot of light.

However, as I mentioned, it is extrmely questionable that such a thing would ever be built.

Posted by: babs at March 25, 2009 2:42 PM

Sorry, folks for the longwinded post. I surely wish I could sum this up quicker, but this is the best I can do. So, here goes.

First of all, the back story of what happened between the former owners of #185 and the current owners of #189 is so ugly and twisted that I'll spare you the details. Suffice it to say, it's a prime example of how a wonderfully congenial and tight knit commmunity of neighbors can become irreparably fractured over one internal dispute. Unfortunately, and because of that dispute, we lost one great family of neighbors, and their house is now history as well. The good news is that, despite the rift between our own version of Hatfields and McCoys, the majority of the row remains a tight knit, mutally supportive and friendly community that is a pleasure to call home. And, yes, the irony of the loss of #185 is such that now there is an even stronger case for the official preservation of the remainder of the houses on the row.

None of the anti-landmarking arguments hold any water. The owners of #189 did not argue against landmarking of the 10 limestones or even landmarking of the other brick house, #191. Instead they argued only for exclusion of their house from the proposed historic district. The key points of their arguments were:

1. Their house is fugly, at a "kindergarten level of preservation" and not up to LPC "standards" of beauty. Further, it "doesn't match" anything now that the companion house, #185 has been demolished.

2. No one of importance has ever lived at #189 Ocean. A review of the social register proves no big kahunas ever held title to that property. Therefore, it doesn't meet LPC's historical "standards."

3. The current owners are likely to experience financial ruin because, with a development site now next to them, they will not be able to sell their house to anyone but a developer. However, if their house becomes landmarked, they won't be able to sell it to a developer.

4. They will experience financial ruin because they have an easement that runs with the shared driveway between #185 and #189. That easement obligates them to shared responsibility for maintenance and liability of the driveway in case of damage, injuries suffered by others, etc. If a large apartment building is erected on the site of #185, that includes onsite parking, they feel their exposure to potential liabilities will increase.

Again, none of these arguments hold water before the LPC.

The financial ruin arguments are speculative at best and exceed the jurisdiction of the LPC. In the event an apartment building is built next door to them and such liabilities occur, they should take their case to the courts and/or to a City regulatory agency such as the DOB, for example. In any case, LPC is not in the business of making landmark decisions based on the alleged, potential negative financial consequences to the persons who currently own the property under consideration.

Of course, there's no question that, among all these houses which were built between 1909 and 1917, the neo-renaisance styled limestones designed by the early 20th century starchitect Axel Hedman are more "beautiful" than the neo-federal red brick houses designed by the architects Holmgren and Faribalult. However, the architectural and historical merit of structures to be landmarked are not based solely (or even) upon their architectural "beauty" nor the wealth and power of the people who have previously inhabited those structures. In this case, and notwithstanding the obvious diversty of this housing stock, each of the 12 remaining small family structures on Ocean Avenue share the contextual commonality of being low-rise, architecturally distinctive homes which are deeply set-back from the street. Further, they are situated in the middle of an extraordinarily long Park block that is otherwise comprised of larger, much taller apartment buildings from a different period. As such, it is a significantly distinguishable, century old residential enclave that makes a prominent mark upon the land. For a host of other reasons that are way too numerous to go into here, all 12 houses should be preserved!

As for the anti-landmarking argument of the owner of #211, I believe Babs has already given an expert summation.

Posted by: Brooklynista at March 25, 2009 4:12 PM

Thanks for the explanations. . .
I'm sure 99% of New Yorkers would happily live in the allegedly fugly 189 Ocean and gaze out the front windows at Prospect Park every day.
They'd also happily take the "financial ruin" these boneheads are claiming -- ie., doubling or tripling their investment in a few years.

Posted by: ontheparkway at March 25, 2009 4:20 PM

Babs, I didn't know who you were either. I would have liked to have met you, I've admired your posts for a long time, especially back in the old PLG wars days, when I was CHP. If you are who I think you are, you were most eloquent as well.

I have to admit, without knowing the back story, I was moved by 189's plight, mostly in the thought of being responsible for easement issues, but I must agree, as I thought yesterday, that those issues are beyond the scope of the LPC. After hearing all this, that pity is fading. Their lawyer was most bombastic and unpleasant.

211's comments are echoed by many people who are not really aware of what landmarking means. The very last speaker at the hearing, I have no idea who he was, made the point that the LPC really needs to do a better job of getting the word out on the rules, regulations and meaning of landmarking, as it would serve them well in getting a community behind designation.

However, some members of the community also don't educate themselves, when the opportunity arises. When we had an LPC meeting, people came to complain that no one told them anything, yet when pressed admitted that they got the literature in the mail, but they didn't bother to open or read it.

211's best excuse for not being designated was that the properties were no big deal, as the subway runs behind it. Somehow, I think he might forget that point, if a developer was interested in it, as it goes from a negative to no problem at all.

Posted by: Montrose Morris at March 25, 2009 8:20 PM

I still am curious about the story of what 189 ocean did to 1985 ocean.......

I was supposed to buy 185 ocean until I got outbid by the developer...

I want to know what I was potentially "saved" from if they are such hellish neighbors!

Thanks!

Posted by: areakidsbrooklyn at March 25, 2009 10:37 PM

Thanks very much, MM -- I actually spoke after the owner of 189 Ocean, but before her lawyer -- and her comments made me so furious, especially about how the house wan't worth landmarking bacause no-one important ever lived there, that I pretty much scrapped my prepared speech and kind of went off-the-cuff, so I doubt my eloquence was too apparent :).

And, yes, I don't know who that last speaker was, but he did make a very good point about the need for outreach to people regarding the availability of low-cost loans and other funding to help owners of landmarked properties (espeically low and middle income owners) restore their homes.

I an currently trying to organize some sort of LPC/HDC outreach effort on my block in order to combat the ongoing plague of landmark violations. In the meantime, the HDC has just published a very informative brochure on the various sorts of funding available to homeowners of landmarked (and non) properties: http://www.hdc.org/financial%20incentives%20brochure.pdf

I'm sure you're already familiar with it, but perhaps others are not.

Cheers!

Posted by: babs at March 26, 2009 11:36 AM

I feel terrible for the owners of 189 ocean ave., not only because of this landmarking situation, but because they have to put up with such childish neighbors! They've been called horrible names! The truth is, the people who live at 189 ocean ave. are just trying to protect themselves in the same way that the rest of the block is. And, ironically, 185 ocean sold to developers. Isn't that one of the things that you're trying to prevent with landmarking? The people who live at 189 are kind, decent people who angered the other neighbors by not letting them park in their backyard, a situation that the owners of 185 created. The neighbors have been angry at them ever since. The landmarking project sounds a lot more like a personal vendetta than an effort to preserve beautiful houses.

Posted by: plgneighbor at March 26, 2009 1:20 PM

"The landmarking project sounds a lot more like a personal vendetta than an effort to preserve beautiful houses"

Not withstanding any sympathy that may be due the owners of # 189, the sentence I've quoted above is one of the most ridiculous I've ever seen!

Posted by: Bob Marvin at March 26, 2009 2:30 PM

To expand on my 2:30 comment, the current "landmarking project' was started in response to the threat to #185. The owners of 189 originally supported landmarking the entire row and, as of the hearing Tuesday, still support landmarking the other 11 houses. I know there are some bad feelings between neighbors there (and I've gotten an earful from both sides) but I don't see how the attempt at HD designation could be a "vendetta".

Posted by: Bob Marvin at March 26, 2009 2:54 PM

"The people who live at 189 are kind, decent people"

ROTFLMFAO

Posted by: FlatbushMan23 at March 27, 2009 10:12 AM

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