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March 18, 2009

Drug Dealing Hotspot in Crown Heights?

This was recently posted Brooklynian.com:

Is it me, or is the drug dealing on St. John's and Franklin out of hand? Perhaps it is me, because I am around during the day and I see it. But as clear as day I see hand offs, and guys going to their stash in nearby garbages. I guess I am just surprised by how obvious it all is. Are the cops on the take or just don't care?

A number of follow-up comments suggest this is indeed a hot-spot. Anyone have anything to add about the history and current status of this location? This is the 77th Precinct's turf: What have people's experiences been with them? Maybe these new streetlights will ameliorate the problem.

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Comments

I don't see any drug dealing in that pic. If someone's going to make the accusation it'd be nice if they could show the evidence supporting it!!! LMMFAO

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at March 18, 2009 10:47 AM

you can add St. johns and Washington to that as well. not quite as bad as franklin, but still pretty obvious.

Are the cops on the take? Hard to say. If they're not, then they're mailing it in. Does anyone have a contact at the 77th that residents can get in touch with/?

Posted by: oneasternparkway at March 18, 2009 10:49 AM

Jeez...what a depressing looking corner...

Posted by: 11217 at March 18, 2009 10:49 AM

What is it about St. John's.

It's the one block in the North Slope that seems to have more than it's fair share of shady characters too...

Posted by: 11217 at March 18, 2009 10:51 AM

What sort of stuff can you get here? I'm looking for a new source.

Posted by: tybur6 at March 18, 2009 10:56 AM

i lived in the building on that corner from 09/07-11/08, and it is definitely the main drug dealing hotspot on that drag of franklin avenue. the dealers mostly left us alone, but they were out there all day, everyday. we finally moved after a drive-by, a hit-and-run, a series of violent muggings, a break-in upstairs that involved our neighbor getting tied up and pistol-whipped, and the laundromat being robbed at gunpoint. up until my boyfriend's schedule changed so that i was at home by myself most evenings, we were able to deal with it. i didn't like having so many crackheads frequenting my corner, but other than the nightmare that was walking the block and a half from the train to my front door alone every evening, they mostly left me alone. the bodgea on the corner sells drugs too, and (according to the detectives at the 77th), so does the barber shop across the street.

Posted by: saintv at March 18, 2009 11:00 AM

There are a lot of corners like that in the nabe. Well, maybe not quite so active, but certainly active.

Posted by: KHuebbe at March 18, 2009 11:06 AM

up until a few months ago, i lived right near by - i'd walk past franklin & lincoln pl often, earlyish (say 8 to 9am) on the weekends and even in the cold there'd be group of young kids out in front of the bodega on the NE corner of the block. Even in 20 degree weather. I even once saw a small wad of cash passed off very discretely to a much older man who appeared homeless and was talking to himself (clever disguise?).

as for dave's comment of evidence, would you like me to go up to the young men standing on that corner and ask them if i could take pictures of them? or just stand across the street and do that? can you think of a plausible explanation as to why a group of young men would decide to hang out on the corner in 20 degree weather at 8:30am on a saturday morning, every week?

Posted by: gomuppets at March 18, 2009 11:08 AM

Get Greenberg and Hantz on the case!

http://www.modcinema.com/images/dvd_supercops.jpg

Posted by: fexleycb at March 18, 2009 11:09 AM

stop snitchin!!

Posted by: SlopeBuppie at March 18, 2009 11:17 AM

Now it's time for "The What Rants", Yeah, cue stage in 5,4,3...

"i lived in the building on that corner from 09/07-11/08, and it is definitely the main drug dealing hotspot on that drag of franklin avenue. the dealers mostly left us alone, but they were out there all day, everyday."

This is from a "Poser" that cannot afford to live in one of the better neighborhoods of this fine city of ours. So this Knucklehead complains about the conditions of a place that was there before they moved in. Now they are on a Blog "snitching" on what goes on there. Do you think that the "thugs" have computers also, Dumbass!

"we finally moved after a drive-by, a hit-and-run, a series of violent muggings, a break-in upstairs that involved our neighbor getting tied up and pistol-whipped, and the laundromat being robbed at gunpoint. up until my boyfriend's schedule changed so that i was at home by myself most evenings, we were able to deal with it."

Please tell us-- Where did you move to? I hope it was a neighborhood that was up to your expectation level.

"i didn't like having so many crackheads frequenting my corner, but other than the nightmare that was walking the block and a half from the train to my front door alone every evening, they mostly left me alone. the bodgea on the corner sells drugs too,"

So the Crackhead appeared when you moved in??? Did the Crackhead magically appear out of thin air? Did the Crackhead come from Ebay??? Or maybe it was a long time condition you ignored because you want to live in a "edgy" neighborhood???

"he bodgea on the corner sells drugs too, and (according to the detectives at the 77th), so does the barber shop across the street."

That's the money shot! This is a GOD damn lie!!!! I know the owner of that shop and there is no drug dealing going on inside that place. The owners would not tolerate such behavior! This a smear campaign by Brooklynian.com. I got banned from there because I represent another view point. A view point that does not work for them and listen to this-- If you keep posting this type of crap something real bad will happen. remember the streets is watching...

The What

Someday this war is gonna end..

Posted by: Return of The What at March 18, 2009 11:18 AM

i think that's a crack corner - i tried to cop some green there when i lived on lincoln and was not successful.

Posted by: dirty_hipster at March 18, 2009 11:22 AM

Go to Google Maps, type in 764 Franklin Avenue, press "search maps" and then select Street View and you can see some people hanging out in front of the deli.

Posted by: plgdude at March 18, 2009 11:23 AM

Can we also get a report on Bed Bug hot spots?

I can divert my path where drug dealers are concerned. Even ignore ugly corners. But nasty germ carrying bed bugs...they are popping up everywhere. Can't afford to rid of the contents of my apartment because they jumped onto my clothing after sitting on an infested chair somewhere...

Bed bug hotspots...somebody please!

Posted by: The Who at March 18, 2009 11:24 AM

I live on that block and really don't notice anything going on besides young guys hanging out on the corner all the time. I keep to myself and they keep to themselves. Twice I've been called "snowflake," but I just ignore it.

Posted by: arrp at March 18, 2009 11:24 AM

hmm i don't know why you feel the need to be such a dick about my own personal experience with the neighborhood, but if it makes you feel any better, i ended up moving to carroll gardens, and i do like it better. it's safer, closer to my work, and i don't have to walk too far to go grocery shopping. i didn't really have any say in the crown heights apartment since my bf lived there before we decided to cohabit besides my advice to not believe the landlord's claim that it was in "prospect heights." i'm no old-timer but i have been here for 7 years, which is long enough to know which areas of brooklyn to be apprehensive about.

Posted by: saintv at March 18, 2009 11:31 AM

You can always trust The What to pop in with the "since crackheads were already there, we should leave it the way it is" argument.

God forbid any area of the city improve in any way due to public action.

Posted by: cwbuecheler at March 18, 2009 11:36 AM

Decades of a war on drugs has been successful in that it has succeeded in removing black men from the voter rolls through incarceration and felony disenfranchisement (altho in NY felons can vote unless in prison or on parole), succeeded in transferring wealth and electoral strength from urban areas to rural areas, succeeded in undermining respect for the law, constitutional protections against unreasonable search and seizures, succeeded in providing justifications for swollen police budgets, succeeded in diverting attention from violent crime. What it has not been successful is in reducing drug addiction, violence in drug exporting countries or petty property crimes around drug distribution points. While as a citizen and father I feel all right by expecting the drug sellers to be discrete and respectful in their entrepeneurial activity, it is senseless to expect that the commerce will go away. Of course if anyone, including the nutjob called the What, threatens me or another with personal violence for complaining about the less savory aspects of drug dealing, then I have a problem.

It won't go away - it will only be displaced, dilluted or hidden by more acceptable forms of commerce or street activity taken its place.

Posted by: Putnamdenizen at March 18, 2009 11:39 AM

If you see something, say something. Go to the 77th precinct's monthly community meeting (look it up on the precinct's website) and ask the cops to put a stop to the drug dealing on your corner. If it doesn't stop, go the next month and complain. If that doesn't work, well, you've done your part.

Posted by: kutterkan at March 18, 2009 11:41 AM

"hmm i don't know why you feel the need to be such a dick about my own personal experience with the neighborhood, but if it makes you feel any better, i ended up moving to carroll gardens, and i do like it better."

Hey Dumbass see what happen when you live in a great neighborhood you can afford? I'm so sorry the Ghetto was not what you wanted, thanks for playing. Next contestant!!!

I want to show the Retards what in your future. The Ghetto Hi-Jack Asshat Team are losing momentum and I hope you didnot buy in a "Up and coming area" because you're toast!

"i didn't really have any say in the crown heights apartment since my bf lived there before we decided to cohabit besides my advice to not believe the landlord's claim that it was in "prospect heights.""

ROTFLMMFAO!!!! See the pixie dust is wearing off...

The What (Let me get 4)

Someday this war is gonna end...

Posted by: Return of The What at March 18, 2009 11:41 AM

indeed, the ghetto is not what i wanted, but we were hoping to make the best of it. we made friends with a lot of the local business owners (RIP Saje cafe). unfortunately the what is probably right on this one. with the economy in the tank and so many foreclosures in the area, crown heights will probably remain crackhead territory for a while longer. which is a shame for the kids and families in the area.

Posted by: saintv at March 18, 2009 11:49 AM

Putnamdenizen I was not threatening anyone! You work in the Brooklyn District Attorney Office (I think you are a ADA) you know what happen when the "Snitch" thing is factored in. Young men do not have rational thought processes, they think in the moment, what ever that is. If the retards continue with this type of behavior they something real bad could happen. Putting false and misleading information on a blog and naming name is bad business. You are that naive Putnamdenizen!

As someone who grew up in the 80's I agree with your assessment on the War on Drugs!

"indeed, the ghetto is not what i wanted, but we were hoping to make the best of it. we made friends with a lot of the local business owners (RIP Saje cafe). unfortunately the what is probably right on this one. with the economy in the tank and so many foreclosures in the area, crown heights will probably remain crackhead territory for a while longer. which is a shame for the kids and families in the area."

The retards better read this statement over and over again! This is from a former Retard that learned the hard way. ROTFLMMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!

The What (I'm a dollar short)

Someday this war is gonna end...

Posted by: Return of The What at March 18, 2009 12:00 PM

I've said it before and I know the Crown Heights dwellers and lovers hate me for it, but it's articles like these that makes 1 million dollar homes (or even half million) in Crown Heights seem absurd to some of us.

It's not about hating the neighborhood (I wish it well, just like every other neighborhood) but the neighborhood's home values have increased FAR beyond the actual improvements in quality of life, it would seem.

I know that Crown Heights has it's good areas and bad, but when the newer residents are paying so much to live in these areas (unlike the peanuts the first to gentrify areas of Boreum Hill, Park Slope etc) they want things cleaned up now, or they become disenfranchised and leave.

If home prices were where they should be (200-300K) those people with moderate incomes who normally do the gentrification would see those deals, move in and try to improve the neighborhood.

I don't think people spending 750K-1 million are the gentrifying type, by and large. I think they are the ones who want to enjoy the fruits of said gentrification.

Posted by: 11217 at March 18, 2009 12:02 PM

So houses in Crown Heights are grossly overpriced and worth 200-300K? Do you think 3 million is reasonable for a brownstone in Park Slope just because it has some bars and restaurants?

Posted by: dirty_hipster at March 18, 2009 12:09 PM

house prices in park slope were well over 200-300k 10-15 years ago. I know someone who bought a house on 13th street and 6th ave for 500k in '98. Saying they should be 300k in crown heights because of drug dealing is kind of stupid.

Posted by: Santa at March 18, 2009 12:11 PM

Nope, I don't think 3 million is reasonable.

I'd say 1.5 million seems about right. Maybe 2.

There is a lot more to Park Slope than bars and restaurants. The amount of work done by the longtime residents on crime, schools, cleaning up Prospect Park and a transformed 5th Avenue (among other things!) have been HUGE challenges that people before me have worked on for 30 plus years.

This can be said for many of the nicer brownstone neighborhoods. It just hasn't happened to the extent that it needs to in Crown Heights yet. Partially due to the inflated housing prices, in my opinion.

Posted by: 11217 at March 18, 2009 12:13 PM

many folks may consider this corner an amenity.

Posted by: dirty_hipster at March 18, 2009 12:13 PM

As is often the case, I agree with 11217. The prices people want for properties in what are absolutely fringe areas of the city are astounding. "Live next to a crack corner! Only $650k for a 2 BR condo!"

No one who makes that kind of money wants to live in a place with no restaurants, shops, etc ... let alone a place where violent crime and drugs are commonplace. Neighborhoods can and do gentrify (and contrary to What's belief, they don't all return to "the ghetto" as soon as there's an economic downturn), but the work isn't done by the wealthy. It's done by people who are willing to put up with the annoyances and outright dangers of a down neighborhood in order to keep their costs low, as they work to improve their surroundings.

I agree that the government-driven "war on drugs" hasn't worked worth a damn when it comes to cleaning up the streets or reducing drug addiction. What DOES work, at least in terms of improving neighborhoods, is a concerted effort by the people who live there to make this type of trade unwelcome.

Posted by: cwbuecheler at March 18, 2009 12:14 PM

Ok, fine 400K.

My point isn't to trash Crown Heights, it's to point out that lower housing prices would actually IMPROVE the neighborhood faster in my opinion.

And it's not just drug dealing. Is there one acceptable school in Crown Heights where someone spending 800K on a house would send their child? Is there a reason that there is sometimes a foot of trash piled on the sidewalk along Franklin Avenue? There are a host of things that need to be tackled. It's come a long way, but more needs to be done. It seems just be reading this blog that it continues to be the long time residents (Montrose etc) that seem most involved with their neighborhood and wanting to improve it. The newbies want their boutiques and cafes or I'm guessing they'll move on.

Posted by: 11217 at March 18, 2009 12:16 PM

"many folks may consider this corner an amenity."

Yes, they're called crack addicts.

Those of you who want to glamorize this really ugly part of our society, be my guest. The picture of this corner looks like an area of Baltimore where houses cost 14K.

Posted by: 11217 at March 18, 2009 12:22 PM

"Neighborhoods can and do gentrify (and contrary to What's belief, they don't all return to "the ghetto" as soon as there's an economic downturn), but the work isn't done by the wealthy. It's done by people who are willing to put up with the annoyances and outright dangers of a down neighborhood in order to keep their costs low, as they work to improve their surroundings."

Name one in the last seven years that will stay "Gentrified" after the collapse of the Mutant Asset Bubble?? Please name just one. Clinton Hill maybe and after that PPPPFFFFFFF! Gone in smoke! Keep dreaming Retards and you will wind up like saintv....

Thanks for playing, NEXT!

The What

Someday this war is gonna end...

Posted by: Return of The What at March 18, 2009 12:24 PM

You've trash-talked a lot in the past What, but now you've gone too far. I am not an assistant district attorney. Don't. ever. call. me. that. again.

More seriously - there is no excuse or defending any reign of terror or threats of personal violence by drug dealers to their neighbors. If it happens it must be resisted with all community force. And yes, that is where I revel in my entitledness. Much as I won't put up with putting my son in a school which I believe is subpar, so too I will not put up with adolescents disrespecting me and my neighbors. Be discrete, be respectful, or take it elsewhere. And yes, I know those can be fighting words.

Posted by: Putnamdenizen at March 18, 2009 12:24 PM

Even $400k is a *shitload* of money for normal human beings. If you pick any neighborhood in the country that's in a similar state to much (most?) of Crown Heights, houses of equivalent square footage aren't going to be priced anywhere near $400k. a 3-story, 2k sf townhouse in a fringe area of Philly, for example, is going to run you like $150k-$200k. And it's not like Philly is some backwater town.

Posted by: cwbuecheler at March 18, 2009 12:26 PM

haha 11217 - your myopic view of brooklyn never ceases to amaze me

i lived in crown heights a few years ago and i can attest that things are "moving in the right direction"

If money was no option and i had the choice btw equal houses in crown heights and park slope - one for 400k and the other for 2.5 or whatever you think is fair - i'd take crown heights and use the 2 million i saved to take a car 10 minutes over to your wonder enclave.

yes park slope is nice - but not 2 million dollars nicer. and if you think crown heights is THAT bad i encourage you to take a walk to the other side of the park once the weather warms up.

Posted by: dirty_hipster at March 18, 2009 12:27 PM

Putnamdenizen - your an ADA???? I hope not - using Government property (computers and Network time) to post your personal opinions on a public website is a no-no and Joe Hynes aint going to like it - especially since your pronouncements differ from your bosses position.
Now get back to work.

Posted by: fsrg at March 18, 2009 12:28 PM

11217 - this corner looks like 5th Avenue or Smith street nine years ago. Have you been to Baltimore?

Posted by: Putnamdenizen at March 18, 2009 12:29 PM

FSRQ - read above. Jerk.

Posted by: Putnamdenizen at March 18, 2009 12:30 PM

What -

"Name one in the last seven years that will stay "Gentrified" after the collapse of the Mutant Asset Bubble??"

Carol Gardens, Stuyvesant Heights, Clinton Hill, Prospect Heights, Williamsburg, Greenpoint, and probably Ft. Greene, the western half of Flatbush, and Bushwick.

And that's not even close to a full list. Not all of those neighborhoods were gentrified by the "invading white people from Ohio" that you're so scared of. In fact, very few of them were.

Posted by: cwbuecheler at March 18, 2009 12:31 PM

"11217 - this corner looks like 5th Avenue or Smith street nine years ago. Have you been to Baltimore?"

Born and raised.

Posted by: 11217 at March 18, 2009 12:33 PM

As for the cops being on the take - while there have been some cases of that - a far bigger problem is that you cant get a decent jury in this county -
The majority of the people who will actually serve on a drug jury are either unemployable loosers with a bias against cops or 'Birkenstock' with a similar bias.
If more working people (especially people who live in the neighborhoods, who know how bad it really is) would serve - we could add some power to the police/DA and have more leverage for both prison AND programs.

But I know your country/state and community asks so much of you - so why should you waste time serving on a jury

Posted by: fsrg at March 18, 2009 12:33 PM

"You've trash-talked a lot in the past What, but now you've gone too far. I am not an assistant district attorney. Don't. ever. call. me. that. again."

Hold hold on... I'm laughing so F*** hard wait! I thought you was a Champion of the people Putamdenizen.. Hold wait.. Ok I'm better. Hey that means I can go in full blast on ya! Ok!

"Much as I won't put up with putting my son in a school which I believe is subpar, so too I will not put up with adolescents disrespecting me and my neighbors. Be discrete, be respectful, or take it elsewhere. And yes, I know those can be fighting words."

Well Homeslice you better call the moving company right now. The cuts coming down the pipe for New York City Board of Edmukation is going to be real steep! Plus there is no more "upside" on Gentrification! You need asset appreciation for that to work and with the collapse of the Mutant Asset Bubble the stagecoach is turning back into a pumpkin....

Thanks for playing, NEXT!!!!

The What (I want my skittles)

Someday this war is gonna end...

Posted by: Return of The What at March 18, 2009 12:34 PM

And I lived ON 5th Avenue in 2000 and it was nothing like this. Drug dealing, yes. Drive by's, no.

That was more like 1990. When prices were indeed 200K.

I have a friend who lives in Franklin and go hang out at least a couple times a month. I'm not speaking out of my ass, but that doesn't mean you all aren't free to disagree.

Posted by: 11217 at March 18, 2009 12:35 PM

Putnamdenizen - why so testy?? - I said I hoped you weren't an ADA and I didnt criticize what you said either - based on your quick trigger for hostility I have to assume you ARE an attorney of some sort.....

Posted by: fsrg at March 18, 2009 12:36 PM

There is STILL drug dealing going on on 5th Ave in prime PS

Posted by: fsrg at March 18, 2009 12:38 PM

"There is STILL drug dealing going on on 5th Ave in prime PS"

Yup, and they even venture up closer to the park too. ;-)

Seriously though, there is indeed some minor drug activity on 5th. I've seen it. It's mostly pot dealing, which is a whole different animal than crack.

Posted by: 11217 at March 18, 2009 12:41 PM

Honestly - I think St John's btw 5th and 6th is alot more unsavory then St John's and Franklin.

Posted by: dirty_hipster at March 18, 2009 12:41 PM

"Putnamdenizen - why so testy?? - I said I hoped you weren't an ADA and I didnt criticize what you said either - based on your quick trigger for hostility I have to assume you ARE an attorney of some sort....."

I remember Putnamdenizen said that he worked for the Brooklyn District Attorney office. I wish some one would dig that up. Look Putnam calm down.. It's OK.

The What (Get Putnamdenizen some skittles)

Someday this war is gonna end...

Posted by: Return of The What at March 18, 2009 12:41 PM

FSRG:

The point is...if there were crack dealers hanging out on the corner of 5th Avenue and President every single day of the year, you better believe that if the police didn't do something about it, my neighbor who's lived in the same place for 50 years would. These people don't take this shit, and I love 'em for it.

She's one of the people who helped make this such a nice place to live. We need more of her. I'm learning...

Posted by: 11217 at March 18, 2009 12:43 PM

"Honestly - I think St John's btw 5th and 6th is alot more unsavory then St John's and Franklin"

As you'll notice, I said the same thing way above, but there's a big difference between thinking something is unsavory and looking at the crime statistics.

Posted by: 11217 at March 18, 2009 12:44 PM

ugh i can't deal with the park slope crap today. later

Posted by: dirty_hipster at March 18, 2009 12:45 PM

Well not everybody has the luxury to have these special goods from cupcakes to fancy names wrapped in pretty bags delivered to their condo.

Posted by: dutchman at March 18, 2009 12:45 PM

Um, The What, you did say "(I think you are a ADA)". You getting old and brain damaged from all the hating.

I know what you're trying to do, but you can't scare the white folk away honeybunch. They're a tough pestilence, like bed bugs. Look at Fort Greene. 10 years ago -- less, even -- it was as bad as Crown Heights. Now it's Sesame Street with all the different colors of the rainbow clinking wine glasses and toasting the pretty tree guards and all those pretty new restaurants.

But keep trying. You gotta do something with yourself.

Posted by: iz at March 18, 2009 12:48 PM

As Mr. B said...I'm sure all of this will be rectified once the new streetlights are put in.

;-)

Posted by: 11217 at March 18, 2009 12:52 PM

apparently a huge amount of pot is delivered throughout park slope on a daily basis.

yeeeeeehaw

Posted by: Santa at March 18, 2009 1:01 PM

FSRQ - you are the one who got all cutesy about what my boss would think - I guess I'll assume you posted before my prior post went up. My testiness is a joke. Since I am a public defender, I take offense at being called a prosecutor. While I can intellectually understand the need for a prosecutorial function in society, my passion and loyalty is elsewhere.

BTW Forty-six years ago, on March 18, 1963, the U.S. Supreme Court found that it was an 'obvious truth' that the Sixth Amendment right to counsel is a fundamental right essential to a fair trial. Justice Hugo Black said in his opinion: "[I]n our adversary system of criminal justice, any person haled into court, who is too poor to hire a lawyer, cannot be assured a fair trial unless counsel is provided for him. This seems to us to be an obvious truth."

I would like to apologize to all that I engaged with the What. Next.

Posted by: Putnamdenizen at March 18, 2009 1:01 PM

Putnamdenizen - nothing wrong with being a public defender - you dont have to justify yourself - but if you are LAS heres a bit of advice - stop being such a 'believer' some (most) of your guys are guilty and you do them a disservice by ALWAYS waiting for a "better" plea deal - sometimes all that comes is a prepared DA who realizes he/she has got a slam dunk conviction and doesnt need to plead it out.......

Posted by: fsrg at March 18, 2009 1:07 PM

fsrq--somehow I dont think Putnamdenizen is in need of your advice about how to do his job. I get the sense from him that he is pretty damn good at it.

Posted by: wasder at March 18, 2009 1:12 PM

Okay - now you are being boorish, FSRQ. First you think I am a DA and tell me what to do, now you know I am a public defender and tell me how to feel about my work and my clients. Triffle presumptious, no? Tend to your own gardening, thank you.

Posted by: Putnamdenizen at March 18, 2009 1:12 PM

wow, is it a full moon or something? Breath deep.

Posted by: BklynPEZ at March 18, 2009 1:24 PM

i was hoping to actually talk about the state of crown heights? surprisingly, no one has yet mentioned franklin park...

Posted by: saintv at March 18, 2009 1:30 PM

"Triffle presumptious, no?"

probably, but seriously its a blog comment, try not to be so sensitive I obviously have no clue who you are in real life so what difference does it make and why get so bent out of shape - its more about interesting discussion than anything else

Posted by: fsrg at March 18, 2009 1:30 PM

Was at Franklin Park two nights ago. I like that place a lot.

Posted by: 11217 at March 18, 2009 1:40 PM

Ok here is one part of this that was ignored. The police usually don't respond or do anything about drug dealing unless someone has a gun. They have to actually catch someone in the act of dealing to really arrest them. They are business people and have figured out how to do their business. They get sloppy now and then, but they are fully aware of how to play the law. If you call 911 about drug dealing, they will ask you if anyone has a gun. The gun part will seal the deal for them and they will make a move. Here is my theory. Everyone's gotta eat. There are people that have jobs and get paid and people that hustle and get paid. The cops know this. The city knows this. My experience in Brooklyn shows me that in any given neighborhood the MAJORITY rules. If the majority is Hasidic Jews, they dictate the behaviors and rules, In white neighborhoods, people sip wine on their stoops. In the Lower East Side the cops have been told not to respond to noise complaints because Bloomberg has declared it a "party zone" and it would be bad for business to tell the bars to keep the noise down. In poor and working class black neighborhoods there is a percentage of people that have to hustle to make a living. As long as that hustling is not hurting anyone, causing other crimes or drawing large numbers of complaints, then its business as usual. It keeps things status quo, people eat and no one gets hurt. Clampdown and well, what will folks do? Especially with high unemployment levels. The cops know its happening, but unless its really causing a problem to surrounding businesses and threatening people's lives they do nothing really. They can't, its majority rule basically. So until the majority swings the other way and people keep complaining, the 77th probably can't do much.

Posted by: tomgee at March 18, 2009 2:18 PM

I don't think it's appropriate to cherry-pick your drug dealers. You can't separate the pot dealing in Park Slope from Franklin Ave, and it's only a ridiculous sense of entitlement that would make one try. If you buy illegal drugs, you're supporting the illegal drug trade. Period. That means you're supporting blight like this -- even if it isn't in YOUR neighborhood.

In my younger days, I always thought drug dealers made excellent neighbors, because they didn't want any trouble. I'm no longer convinced that's true -- not sure if I've gotten older and stodgy (possible) or if the trade is in fact more violent and random than it used to be.

Back to the Franklin Ave topic: I seem to remember reading some broker copy about Franklin Ave being the "new" Bedford Ave. Thoughts?

Posted by: Heather at March 18, 2009 2:19 PM

You guys are so F-ing stupid with that "Stop Snitching" BS. "Hi it's me...I live in a Shi*hole drug infested neighborhood...but don't want to make it better." "Snitching" is wrong...? Bull*hit

PLEASE! That same dude you want to "protect" by not snitching would just as well put a bullet in your face as the next guy...believe it!

Idiots!

Posted by: BassmeisterGeneral at March 18, 2009 2:21 PM

Posted by: tomgee at March 18, 2009 2:22 PM

This picture shows a particularly ugly corner on an otherwise nice neighborhood. I have lived there for 2 years off Franklin and can attest to many changes. I have never been one for multi-family building arrangments, where you tend to get this type of trouble. Even friends of mine in Prospect Heights in multifamily buildings have similar problems...Right off St Johns and Franklin you have the very hip and happening bar "Franklin Park" (full of all sorts of people - but mostly white people) continue down Franklin and you will find a new bakery and tea shop "Lily and Fig" which will soon open, a new pizza parlour, a new Indian restaurant which opened a year ago, and new wine store (opened a year ago) with more than 500 types of Spanish wines, among others. I know people who have recently moved from Italy, japan, Germany UK, and elswhere in the US to settle in CH North in the last 4 years. This area is just getting better. Note that these are people who are hear for the long haul - not just for 2-3 years. We welcome change while embracing the local community. And when I say the local community - it is full of wonderful afro-caribben people who actually own their homes and care about their community. So please now that the NEWBIES will not move on. We are here to stay. As someone said, if I need a good cheese, I go with my car to Fairway, Park Slope or order from Fresh Direct. It is no big deal really....

Posted by: crownheights2007 at March 18, 2009 2:32 PM

This picture shows a particularly ugly corner on an otherwise nice neighborhood. I have lived there for 2 years off Franklin and can attest to many changes. I have never been one for multi-family building arrangments, where you tend to get this type of trouble. Even friends of mine in Prospect Heights in multifamily buildings have similar problems...Right off St Johns and Franklin you have the very hip and happening bar "Franklin Park" (full of all sorts of people - but mostly white people) continue down Franklin and you will find a new bakery and tea shop "Lily and Fig" which will soon open, a new pizza parlour, a new Indian restaurant which opened a year ago, and new wine store (opened a year ago) with more than 500 types of Spanish wines, among others. I know people who have recently moved from Italy, japan, Germany UK, and elswhere in the US to settle in CH North in the last 4 years. This area is just getting better. Note that these are people who are here for the long haul - not just for 2-3 years. We welcome change while embracing the local community. And when I say the local community - it is full of wonderful afro-caribben people who actually own their homes and care about their community. So please now that the NEWBIES will not move on. We are here to stay. As someone said, if I need a good cheese, I go with my car to Fairway, Park Slope or order from Fresh Direct. It is no big deal really....

Posted by: crownheights2007 at March 18, 2009 2:32 PM

As the spouse of the Brooklynian poster, I'd like to respond to a couple of things. For us this is a quality of life issue. We have never felt in danger in our neighborhood. Indeed, we rented nearby for a couple of years before buying our house, so we knew the score going in. That does not mean that we shouldn't still be troubled by crime that appears to go unchecked by the police. The same goes for the people who have lived there for years; I don't think it is only relative newcomers who would prefer to eliminate drug crime from our neighborhood, or, more realistically, deter the sort of out in the open sales that we see occurring. We would like to attend the precinct's community meetings, but as I suspect is true for many people, our work schedules and other commitments do not permit it. As there is a police presence in the area, I cannot believe they are unaware of these activities, so I don't see how further complaints would get them to respond better. But to those of you who are neighbors, make some calls when you see something. Maybe a critical mass will spur some action.

I cannot corroborate much of what saintv said. We've lived near this corner since 2006 and to us it appears the item sold is marijuana, but who can say for sure. I haven't seen many obvious crackheads around. Nor did I hear anything about the drive-by, hit-and-run, hold up and in-home assault described by saintv, which seems surprising but not totally implausible. The kids hanging out on the corner every day make me sad more than anything else.

On another note, the comment about juries is complete baloney. I sat on a grand jury for two weeks and it was a real cross section of Brooklyn. I really don't think anyone in the group could have been described as particularly mistrustful of the police going in, though the attitude of many (including myself) may have been shaded somewhat by what we learned during our service about the workings of undercover drug busts. Indeed, while I do wish the police could take some action in our neighborhood, at the same time I know that often innocent people are swept up along with the "real" criminals, if that is what you can call teenagers selling drugs for a pittance.

In spite of this one unfortunate aspect of my neighborhood, I still prefer living in a house in a diverse neighborhood two blocks from four express lines and 15 minutes from Prospect Park to living in an apartment in a white enclave on the F train and down a steep slope from the Park. (11217, as you might expect, even those of us who have purchased homes recently in Crown Heights could not conceive of affording a house in Park Slope in this lifetime. Even a two-bedroom apartment would be a major stretch.) But I'm vegan, don't go out drinking much, and try to limit my shopping, so many of the "amenities" of Park Slope don't appeal to me enough to sacrifice having a dining room, a basement, and outdoor space.

Posted by: supersleuth at March 18, 2009 2:38 PM

FSQR, if you meant to engage me in a real conversation, it is odd that you chose to start it by giving me a lecture about how I should advise my clients. Perhaps if I describe my work you will better understand why I didn't think your comment all that interesting or worthy of a response:

- I have practiced as a public defender for over 15 years. I work for an organization which teams its cases, with lawyers, social workers, and investigators focusing far beyond the four quarters of legal charges facing our clients. We track, document, and respond to patterns of arrests (trespasses, low-level narcotic arrests) which disproportionately restrict the life possibilities and freedom of movement of the communities we serve. We vigourously seek out those accusing our clients and secure statements - many of which are at sharp odds with their sworn to testimony at trial a year or so later. We also have housing lawyers and immigration lawyers on staff to advice us on the collateral consequences of pleas, and to represent our clients in housing court, other civil proceedings and in immigration proceedings. One of the unfortunate results of the criminalization of American society is that even minor infractions can have severe consequences in terms of residency, public employment and even education. Did you know that even marijuana convictions can prevent a young person from receiving financial aid for college? We worry about cases where the only evidence is "identification" evidence. We have litigated the kind of line-ups the police department does to avoid false "positives." I worry about my young clients on probation who don't have the family support to make it through five years of supervision. I struggle with adolescent clients whose minds are not yet mature and with adult clients whose minds have been damaged by years of drug abuse or who were never very bright to begin with, or who have been warped by a lifetime of incarceration. So many of the decisions are legally theirs, and I should be empowering them, but how do I weigh it against my responsibility to protect them from foolish decisions? I face 26 and 27 year old district attorneys who have neither the life experiences or the wish to empathetic of the less fortunate. And for the most part I enjoy it, oddly enough.

To reduce my work to "waiting for a better plea offer" and to suggest that I should be mindful about being beaten by some hot-shot district attorney was deeply ignorant and disrespectful of the time and effort I put into my work (despite the impression my postings on this site might indicate!). You took a cheap shot, I called you on it, and then you call me touchy. I think not.

Posted by: Putnamdenizen at March 18, 2009 2:43 PM

Supersleuth,

Really great post. Thanks. I don't claim to know everything about the neighborhood, but just give my impressions of it from my rather frequent trips there and what I read. It's always nice to hear from those who are even more keenly aware of what's going on.

Nothing I've said is meant to diminish Crown Heights AT ALL. As I've said before, I find all of Brooklyn really special for a variety of different reasons, and the diversity of your neighborhood is something that I wish we had more of in Park Slope. And another reason why I actually HOPE for falling prices in my neck of the woods.

My perspective on this was more about the issue of high home prices with regard to quality of life. I simply think the neighborhood could go even stronger with somewhat lower housing costs. Costs more in line with the salaries of those who most typically gentrify neighborhoods.

I trust things will continue to improve despite that, but I agree...seeing those kids out there is disheartening. They are the the ones in need of help. All this other stuff is not even close to as important.

Posted by: 11217 at March 18, 2009 2:45 PM

supersleuth and crownheights2007 are right. it is the worst corner in the neighborhood, and an easy target for troublemakers. all the tenants moved in to 3 newly renovated buildings (same landlord) at pretty much the same time and everyone in the neighborhood could see that they were young white people (except me, i'm not white) with fancy gadgets. all the incidents i described did happen, but they were all confined to this one intersection.

Posted by: saintv at March 18, 2009 3:07 PM

tomgee - that B.S., the police will respond to complaints of dealing, its just that unless they use undercovers, etc.... they arent going see anything except a bunch of people standing around. Even if they tossed everyone, no one is likely to be holding anything more than a bag or 2. So the cops learn quick not to (improperly) just toss everyone b/c of a 9-11 call (not worth the hassle) and short of that - the normal POs and Dets are powerless to do anything more then just drive by to get the dealers to move (for about 5min).

BUT if you call the precinct, 911 and go to the precinct community meeting and otherwise make a fuss - the NYPD will send over narcotic detectives to do buy-n-busts; which over time will help abate the problem (in that location)

long and short - its not that the 'cops' dont care - they are restricted in what they can do.

Posted by: fsrg at March 18, 2009 3:08 PM

Putnamdenizen -

1st of all I directed my "advice" (not really meant as such - more a commentary) to LAS attorneys - which it sounds like you are not one - so I still fail to see why you take offense b/c while a generalization - you must admit that many of the young LAS attorney's handling routine buy-n-busts are simply the reversed mirror image of the 26yr old ADA in your generalization.
Again, I wasnt criticizing you and there is no reason to be prickly about it - although I do see I was right about you being an Attorney of some kind :)

As for supersleath - I'm afraid your limited experience on 1 Grand Jury does not give you a broad enough perspective on who in our community (through the county clerk) we can get to serve on the typical jury. And if you don't beleive me w/o tipping your hand, ask your friends and neighbors how they get out of jury service. Sadly most will have a method.

Posted by: fsrg at March 18, 2009 3:18 PM

FSRQ - troll much?

Posted by: Putnamdenizen at March 18, 2009 3:59 PM

rule of thumb never buy your weed in the ghetto, its usually that mexican rag weed garbage.

Posted by: Xander Crews at March 18, 2009 4:01 PM

Putnamdenizen - no never.....

Posted by: fsrg at March 18, 2009 4:04 PM

dirty hipster - you must be sight-impaired. st. john's b/w 5th and 6th in Park Slope has a huge playground and elementary school backing into it. it looks and feels like any other block in the North Slope. You think there are shady characters selling drugs within 100 feet of a school in Park Slope?? Extremely unlikely.

Posted by: tiptoe at March 18, 2009 4:15 PM

FSRQ - hardly ever?

Your memory of your comments directed to me is about as accurate as the memory of most detectives who I cross on the stand. One of the main problems of the "war" on drugs is that it encourages and rewards the most creative lying on the part of law enforcement in order to overcome constitutional challenges. My experience in the Bronx is that this taints the communities in a way which undercuts more important prosecutions of violent crimes. Despite someone's (yours) protestations to the contrary, the police do do sweeps (normally out of sight of the landed class) and search people at random. High school students are arrested for being in the lobby of the grandmother's building, and four people are prosecuted for one joint. The fact that prosecutions are dropped after two nights in jail or after a plea to a non-criminal disposition is beside the point. The damage is done, and their mothers, brothers, sisters and fathers are called to jury service with real life experience of arbitrariness and mendacity of the men (and women) in blue.

My trolling accusation is in lieu of an observation that you are somehow clueless or limited in intelligence. If you say something personal to someone else on a blog to, as you claimed at one point, encourage an interesting conversation, man up and take responsibility for it. Instead each time you have retreated with an accusation that I am too sensitive or responded to a comment not directed to me but rather someone else. Seems rather disengenuous.

A broader comment is that those who expect the police to end the drug trade are really looking in the wrong direction. They can't. Again it can only be masked by community concerns and community activities.

Posted by: Putnamdenizen at March 18, 2009 4:20 PM

Tiptoe:

St. John's between 5th and 6th is not the average North Slope block. It is almost all low income housing...they are brownstones, so not everyone would know it, but they are.

While it's not horrible, by any stretch of the imagination, I wouldn't say it feels like the other blocks around it.

Posted by: 11217 at March 18, 2009 4:21 PM

I don't think there are too many neighborhoods anywhere that don't have their good and bad blocks. Crown Heights is huge and to condemn the nighborhood based on a lot of anecdotal stories, and a bad block is to ignore the great neighborhood it actually is. It's hardly a fringe neighborhood and that's by virtue of years of hard work by long time residents and homeowners- not gentrifyiers or newbies. All of whom are welcome in any case.

However as to those who love making pronouncements as to what life is like in Crown Heights yet don't live here, get over yourselves. You don't know- and that's your loss, not Crown Height's.

Putnamdenizen- great posts today! Ignore fsrq- he's conversationally challenged.

Posted by: bxgrl at March 18, 2009 4:52 PM

Crown Heights is the zit on the face of Brooklyn.

Posted by: Xander Crews at March 18, 2009 5:18 PM

oh no - i'm sight impaired now, as apparently a nice school exists on St Johns btw 5th and 6th and not low income housing. better go get the prescription on my contacts checked.

Posted by: dirty_hipster at March 18, 2009 5:33 PM

There is as much weed and coke in Carroll Gardens and Brooklyn Heights, only difference is it is all home delivered.

Posted by: bmfesq at March 18, 2009 5:34 PM

Actually Xander, if that means you won't show your pathetic, immature, and ugly face in my neighborhood say whatever you want. We prefer not to have the streets covered with your slime trail.

Posted by: bxgrl at March 18, 2009 5:44 PM

Brownstoner:

This has been a long thread about Crown Heights, where I grew up during the 1950s and early 1960s.

There was crime then, too. For kids it was petty stuff, bicycles stolen, bigger kids shaking down smaller kids, but it was never pleasant.

The intersection pictured here was out of my usual path, although my brother and I would cross Franklin on our way to the Savoy movie theater on -- as I remember -- Classon Avenue near Eastern Parkway.

Because we'd use our bus money for popcorn, we'd have to walk along streets we didn't know and through blocks with garages and small warehouses, pretty desolate and nervous-making for youngsters.

But we were city kids and even at 10 and six years old, knew how to move and look alert in the twilight.

This area wasn't as "nice" as Crown Heights to the east or west. Even as boys we could figure that out. Squat buildings, non-residential uses, empty sidewalks, graffiti. We'd stick our hands in our pockets, lean forward, and look grim. A couple of little tough guys.

And nothing ever happened.

Until we'd get home and our parents, who somehow knew precisely how much time it should take to get home, admonished us for walking. Not that that stopped them from letting us go again. Testing the boundaries and edges of our neighborhood was part of growing up.

Crown Heights got rougher as time passed. Poorer. Denser. More transient. Still, I was pleasantly reminded of the old neighborhood looking at the picture above. I'm sure my brother and I passed that corner several times, if not for the Savoy, then on our way to Prospect Park.

Nostalgic on Park Avenue

Posted by: NOP at March 18, 2009 5:54 PM

"However as to those who love making pronouncements as to what life is like in Crown Heights yet don't live here, get over yourselves. You don't know- and that's your loss, not Crown Height's."

Bxgrl, can you read? Some of the posters above were actual residents of Crown Heights, so don't use that tired cop-out.

Posted by: Big Jugs at March 18, 2009 6:24 PM

Xander Crews has been trying hard to be the next Snark Slope, and thus far is failing!

Posted by: sixyearsandcounting at March 18, 2009 6:53 PM

Gee. Check the link below to find out how upper-class guys from "prominent" families move a "thousand pounds" of product per month from Manhattan pre-war apartments.

http://www.observer.com/2009/o2/slurping-down-sedgwick

Do you know who your neighbor is?

Posted by: NOP at March 18, 2009 7:36 PM

Putnamdenizen - your just like virtually every public defender out there - prickly, annoying and not all that bright - you can tout your greatness here but I guarantee most of your defendants would be better off getting a drunk 18B lawyer then your likely ineffective Bill Kunstler impression

Posted by: fsrg at March 18, 2009 7:56 PM

Where can you score some green?

Posted by: teddyunc at March 18, 2009 8:03 PM

FSRQ: So you are insulting me? I don't think your analysis of me is reflective either of my work, or of what I have shared here. Sure it bothers me when I actually try to engage on a substantive basis in threads like this and all I get back are inconsistent ad hominem attacks, but that is my own fault. I should lower my expectations. For that you have been very helpful.

Enjoy your pension detective.

Posted by: Putnamdenizen at March 18, 2009 8:23 PM

Anyone who thinks that there is no crack being sold in Park Slope is fooling themselves. And yes, it's being sold near schools. Not just crack but coke, heroin, and acid. No, I don't use any drugs but I'm not blind. I've lived or worked in PS since 1997 and lived in Brooklyn since 1983. Just because you don't notice the drug dealers doesn't mean they aren't there.

Posted by: caseopele at March 18, 2009 11:19 PM

NOP--

Do you remember on which intersection of Classon there was a theater? There was a building just north of Lincoln that was recently knocked down that might have been one, otherwise must be long gone....

Posted by: oneasternparkway at March 18, 2009 11:50 PM

OnEasternParkway:

Your note prompted me to see if I could Google the Savoy -- and sure enough I could. Below is what I found.

Turns out it was at Bedford and Lincoln, below Franklin, so my memory's gotten hazy!

It's a church now and largely intact! Note the historian locates it in Bedford-Stuyvesant. Poor Crown Heights. Bedford Stuyvesant to many. Prospect Heights to others. When will my old neighborhood receive its due?

Anyway, enjoy! (I sure did. Who knew the old haunt was so important in film-house history?)

"The Savoy Theatre was the largest theatre that William Fox ever built in Brooklyn prior to the downtown Fox Theatre. Opening publicity claimed 3,500 seats, but that has been debated ever since. Some industry year books say 2,750, but I would guess more like 3,000. The Savoy Theatre has a very large balcony with minimal space between the rows.

The Savoy Theatre was built at the same time as Fox's Academy of Music in Manhattan, with Thomas W. Lamb as architect of both. The Savoy's auditorium is in the Adam style, with boxed seats adjoining the stage and a shallow dome in the center of the ceiling. It first opened on September 1, 1926, with Fox's "Fig Leaves" on screen, plus six acts of vaudeville. With program changes twice a week, the Savoy was considered the Fox circuit's top Brooklyn showcase until the 1928 opening of the downtown Fox. After that, it became just another neighborhood movie house, but playing first-run for the area.

After William Fox's bankruptcy, the Savoy Theatre landed under the Randforce Circuit, which, to signify the theatre's importance, moved its executive HQ to office space in the building. The Savoy Theatre carried on into the 1960's, despite all the social turbulence in the Bedford-Stuyvesant area.

Fortunately, it escaped demolition and is now the Charity Neighborhood Baptist Church. Except for removal of the marquee and alterations to the entrance, the Savoy's interior is virtually intact, though re-painted in whitewash in most areas. Some of the original stage curtains are still hanging, and I've been told that old scenic backdrops are still stored in the lofts."

From http://cinematreasures.org/theater/6069/
Contributed by Warren G. Harris

Posted by: NOP at March 19, 2009 12:05 AM

PS. If you scroll down that link you'll find connections to several great photos of both the original building and its latest incarnation.

The Savoy, together with the Kameo on the Parkway at Nostrand Avenue, and another theater on Grant Square, have been turned into churches, reflecting movie chains' abandonment of "inner city" neighborhoods and the parallel growth of black churches.

And -- horribly! -- one of the photos shows Eastern Parkway buildings replaced by -- of all things! -- a gas station!

The City's contempt for Central Brooklyn post-1960s knew no limits.

Thankfully, Montrose Morris, BxGrl, and other posters on Brownstoner are recapturing the neighborhood for a racially- and economically-mixed future.

NOP

Posted by: NOP at March 19, 2009 12:25 AM

I started to write what probably would turn into a lengthy diatribe, and decided, "neh."

Suffice it to say that in a renaissance of any neighborhood, there are alway pockets, blocks or corners that resist the betterment of the rest of the neighborhood. Franklin Ave is undergoing the kind of developement that Washington, Vanderbilt, and earlier, Smith and 5th Ave have gone through. It takes time, it takes community activism along with police presense. But it will happen. This corner, which has been a problem for thirty years, will not be a problem forever. Crown Heights is a huge community, and this corner is hardly indicative of Crown Heights.

It's people who make jokes about where they can pick up their product, as well as those who come over there to do so, who contribute to the continuation of the activity there. Tonier neighborhoods get discreet deliveries. There should be no moral superiority here, both activities are illegal.

Lots of good points here, though, from many sources. Would have had fun wading in while the temperature was hot. Next time.

Posted by: Montrose Morris at March 19, 2009 12:35 AM

You want this drug dealing in brooklyn to stop? Tell Charlie Hynes to start prosecuting these people instead of pleading the cases to nothing. Brooklyn next to the Bronx has the worst proseuction rate in the 5 boro's (check the internet its true). Im a ret. NYPD Detective, your state legislature wants to get rid of the Rockefeller Drug Laws that put these guys away for a long time. As far as the cops being on the take, that is total BS. Start electing some crime fighters in Brooklyn & Albany instead of bleeding heart lberals and you might see drug dealers actually go to jail. Typical drug dealer is out in 3 days and dealing again on the street. Its a joke...

Posted by: harrythehat at March 19, 2009 8:00 AM

Just to chime in here. I live a block away from that intersection. There is drug dealing on the corner, no doubt. And that isn't good. But I can't say I've ever been hasseled while walking by or felt threatened.

However, the photo illustrating this post is misleading. It's got the creepy fisheye look b/c it's from Google streetview. That Chinese restaurant is usually open, and is a pretty welcoming spot without even the requisite plexiglas window. Only 10 yards away, you've got a karate studio that's filled with kids every afternoon. And a 24-hour recently renovated "organic" (sort of) market. And around the corner, there's Franklin Park.

There's more to this neighborhood than drugs and crime.

Posted by: Ridonkulous at March 19, 2009 10:21 AM

Some people don't seem to mind drug dealers as long as they leave them alone, however, when two drug dealers decide to shoot it out for some stupid reason and a lone bullet finds its way to a child and kills them. Your not as safe as u think.

Posted by: harrythehat at March 19, 2009 10:54 AM

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March 18, 2009

Drug Dealing Hotspot in Crown Heights?

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