« Inside Third & Bond: Week 76 House of the Day: 601 6th Street »

March 19, 2009

Co-op of the Day: 135 Prospect Park SW, #F12

This one bedroom at 135 Prospect Park Southwest is both beautiful and large. It has nice prewar character and views of Prospect Park as well. At $458, the monthly maintenance is also quite reasonable. If this were on the Park Slope side of the park, the asking price of $399,000 would seem quite reasonable. Its location in Windsor Terrace, while very nice in our book, certainly makes the price more challenging. Not impossible though. Do you think they can get it?
135 Prospect Park SW, #F12 [Brown Harris Stevens] GMAP P*Shark

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Its a cute apt., not too far from the F train...the low maintance makes the price more palatable.

Posted by: ebklyn at March 19, 2009 12:48 PM

Very large bedroom! Large everything! And, regardless of whether or not this place is worth the asking price, it's nice to see a COTD that is priced below a gajillion dollars like most of the COTD picks.

Posted by: InsertSnappyNameHere at March 19, 2009 12:49 PM

Top floor & park exposures are a huge bonus for this place. The maint is very low for an elevator building & having seen units here, the building is very well maintained & classy.
Price is steep for a 1BR - even in PS, but this place has a layout that would easily fit a couple & even a newborn for a short while...
It all comes-down to whether you think the current market will hold value or take an accelerating plunge. Considering the lack of prewar inventory on the market, it's hard to say!

Posted by: parkedslope at March 19, 2009 12:50 PM

I think this is a very reasonably priced apt. I bet they get ask.

Posted by: wasder at March 19, 2009 12:51 PM

Funny, I was just going to say that it seems to be stuck in no-mans land between the two F stations and the Q @ Parkside all being equidistant.

Looks like a nice little pad. Price, as always, is too high but starting to look faintly not ridiculous.

Posted by: the chicken at March 19, 2009 12:52 PM

at 350k, I really like this place.

Posted by: bktycoon at March 19, 2009 12:52 PM

bktycoon, if I were the seller and you offered me 350k I would bite your hand off.

Posted by: the chicken at March 19, 2009 12:55 PM

I guess bird flu goes right to the brain. :)

I think its a good price for the apartment. Asking $399k, a buyer should expect to get it for somewhere around $350 or so. That would be $650-750 at least, on the UES.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at March 19, 2009 1:01 PM

Nice apartment, but the square footage doesn't seem to add up to all that much space, and a couple of the photos look suspiciously distorted (I guess everyone's doing that these days, though).

Posted by: NsPx at March 19, 2009 1:07 PM

Does anyone see the somewhat odd google street view "editing" here...

Also, we're still looking at $2500-3000 a month for a 1-bedroom apartment... right?

Posted by: tybur6 at March 19, 2009 1:07 PM

Chicken - why did you say that?
I agree with bktycoon I would offer $325K - that's not insulting the seller nor is it a stretch considering the market and that the place is in WT and not PS....

nice apt,except I would update the kitchen just a wee bit

Posted by: gemini10 at March 19, 2009 1:07 PM

"That would be $650-750 at least, on the UES."

Maybe... Maybe not...

http://www.brownharrisstevens.com/detail.aspx?id=1001489

http://www.brownharrisstevens.com/detail.aspx?id=920826

Posted by: northsloperenter at March 19, 2009 1:12 PM

Nice place indeed. This should get pretty close to asking. I think they priced it well.

Posted by: TownhouseLady at March 19, 2009 1:15 PM

how's the travel time from here to downtown and midtown manhattan? How are the schools in this hood? Drove through the area before and it looks nice but other than that, don't know much about it.

nice looking unit and it's efficient layout (ie little useless hallway, etc.).

In this mkt, all offers should be low ball offers. Just dont be rude when offerring it. definitely start at 325k or so and let the negotiation begin.

Posted by: more4less at March 19, 2009 1:16 PM

I don't think the price is that far off. Should sell for $370K or more. It's good sized 1 bedroom in a nicely maintained building. The same layout on another floor is already in contract. Similar sized apartments at 75 PPSW are priced at $450K +

Posted by: Bessie at March 19, 2009 1:18 PM

Other than paying $2500 to $3000 a month (plus a chunk o' change for a down payment), what are the financials like? Is $460 a month stable? Or will it be $800 next year?

Posted by: tybur6 at March 19, 2009 1:19 PM

why did I say what? "bite your hand off"?

Don't know if this expression is used over here but it means the seller should accept the offer as quickly as possible before the buyer changes his mind.

So on the basis that you would offer 325k then I guess we are in agreement.

Posted by: the chicken at March 19, 2009 1:20 PM

Bessie... Seriously? $450,000 in that Soviet-style looking place up the hill? We're talking $3,500+ a month to live in a 1-Bedroom apartment?

Posted by: tybur6 at March 19, 2009 1:21 PM

Chicken!!
ok too funny, totally lost in translation
yes we are in agreement!

Posted by: gemini10 at March 19, 2009 1:22 PM

Is a foyer considered half a room?

Posted by: Nomi at March 19, 2009 1:31 PM

I've been keeping an eye on this building and prices have been falling. I suspect they will fall further still.

I went to an open house a while back for a unit with this same layout. The bedroom is far larger than the living room, which did not really work so well in my opinion.

Posted by: SnarkSlope at March 19, 2009 1:34 PM

(Chicken... "bite my hand off," as in "Don't bite my hand off." is usually only used in a negative sense of impatience, not positive excitement. Thought I'd be helpful with idioms today!)

Posted by: tybur6 at March 19, 2009 1:34 PM

Oh, I meant to add -- while I don't consider a foyer a room or half a room, I find that it adds a tremendous feeling of space. It's like you can breath when you walk in. My sister just bought a place with a large foyer, and it makes all the difference. It's a big place though, so it doesn't feel like space elsewhere is sacrificed.

Posted by: Nomi at March 19, 2009 1:35 PM

i don't get the "2500-3000" carrying cost statement. Assuming 20% downpayment and 5.5% rate (maybe lower?), monthly mortgage is around 1800/mo, so total of $2260/month carrying cost.

Anyway, I've noticed probably 6-7 1BR apts priced at $399K on PPSW in the past 6 months. Not sure where they ultimately land price-wise, but it seems to be the going rate.

Posted by: squaredrive at March 19, 2009 1:36 PM

3,500+ a month? How are you doing your math. If you could do 10% down (which is doubtful in a coop) and using the 5.5% 30 year mortage on a 360,000 loan it is 2,044 a month. Plus maintanence you have about 2,500 a month. Larger down payment which would probably be required would bring this down. Also, my assumptions are well above the 5.15% for a 30 year that bankrate.com is showing.

Posted by: Redwes25 at March 19, 2009 1:43 PM

"That would be $650-750 at least, on the UES."

As northsloperenter pointed out, it won't cost that much. The prices for one beds on UES are cratering, two beds are hanging in there for now.

Take your pick!
http://www.trulia.com/NY/New_York/#for_sale/5260_nh/1p_beds/price;a_sort/

Here's one example.
http://www.corcoran.com/property/listing.aspx?Region=NYC&listingid=1519812

Maintenance is higher but starting price is lower.

Posted by: the chicken at March 19, 2009 1:45 PM

It's a co-op, so I'd be surprised if you're going to get the bestest mortgage % rate... you're forgetting things like PMI too. So, yeah, at $400k and after you've ponied up $80k for a downpayment... you're looking at $2500+

And we're all praying the $460 a month maint. doesn't skyrocket.

Posted by: tybur6 at March 19, 2009 1:47 PM

(And thank you Redwes... the $3500 figure was for the $450k place up the street Bessie made reference to. That's why it's the second sentence immediately following "Seriously? $450,000 in that Soviet-style looking place up the hill?")

As a side-note... thank you for confirming my $2500+ figure for this $399k property.

Posted by: tybur6 at March 19, 2009 1:58 PM

20% downpayment = no PMI. 5.5% is a reasonable expectation I believe, so carrying cost for this apt with 20% down as it stands is $2260-ish. Math is not really that subjective.

Even if you go to 6% interest (you can certaintly do better) you're below 2500 total.

Posted by: squaredrive at March 19, 2009 2:00 PM

so my rent is 2400 a month in the apt i live in. so i can feasibly tell people i live in a half million dollar pad? sweet.

*rob*

Posted by: PitbullNYC at March 19, 2009 2:05 PM

Squaredrive... I accept your math.

20% down at 6% = $1,913.77 + 458.00 = $2,371.77

This is the monthly cost for a 1-Bedroom Apartment, approximately a 10 minute walk from the F-train or 15 mins to the Q-train. It does have a "park view" and it's across the street from the park. It's pretty much in the middle of nowhere in terms of "stuff." It's the same 10 or 15 mins walk to buy things... unless you count Uncle Louie G's, which I might.

Oh, and the above math does discount that fact that you just plunked down $90,000. But, I guess that's not a lot of money (it's 37 months of $2,371.77)

Is this *honestly* reasonable? What is the "type" of person that is going to want to buy a 1-bedroom apartment? Is this an appropriate cost for that person/couple?

Posted by: tybur6 at March 19, 2009 2:19 PM

Uncle Louie G's. A complete diet.

Posted by: Nomi at March 19, 2009 2:27 PM

(Chicken... "bite my hand off," as in "Don't bite my hand off." is usually only used in a negative sense of impatience, not positive excitement. Thought I'd be helpful with idioms today!)

Posted by: tybur6 at March 19, 2009 1:34 PM

http://www.english-test.net/forum/ftopic650.html

C'mon english stoners, little help?

Posted by: the chicken at March 19, 2009 2:29 PM

"so my rent is 2400 a month in the apt i live in. so i can feasibly tell people i live in a half million dollar pad? sweet.

*rob*

Posted by: PitbullNYC at March 19, 2009 2:05 PM"

You can Rob but soon you will only be able to say that you live in a $300k apartment!

Posted by: the chicken at March 19, 2009 2:31 PM

Putting it another way.... you're paying $4,246.75 per month for the first 4 years!

Let's say that again, $4,246.75 per month or $203,844 for four years in a 1-Bedroom apartment at 135 Prospect Park Southwest. That's over $50k per year! OH, and that's only if the monthly maintenance stays EXACTLY the same for the whole time... likely?

Here's the Math:

47 months x $1913.77 = $90,000 downpayment
48 months x $1913.77 = $91,860 mortgage
48 months x $458 = $21,984 maintenance

Total = $203.844 / 48 = $4,246.75 per month

In 2013, your costs plummets to the low low monthly price of $1,913.77 plus whatever the hell the maintenance fee has become by then...

Posted by: tybur6 at March 19, 2009 2:32 PM

Chicken... I have several English friends and it's just a sad reality that idioms are truly idiomatic!! Many don't mean the same thing here. And sometimes the opposite.

Posted by: tybur6 at March 19, 2009 2:36 PM

dmn....I'd better bite my lip...oops! ;)

Posted by: the chicken at March 19, 2009 2:40 PM

Unless you work from home and use fresh direct, the location is pretty crappy. I also would rather the sizes of the living room and bedroom be reversed... Considering that this is an apartment for a single, a buyer should probably hold off and look for something in a better location. i would.

Posted by: saminthehood at March 19, 2009 2:51 PM

tybur6, I'm not arguing for this price, the market will decide if it's reasonable, not you or me, but your logic does not make sense. You understand that downpayments go against the purchase price, correct? You are putting equity in your home that you will eventually get back, unless you sell at a loss.

No one factors downpayment into monthly costs because it makes absolutely no sense to do so.

Posted by: squaredrive at March 19, 2009 2:54 PM

I know you "get it back," but you can't just discount it. That is real money and a HUGE chunk of change. That's totally illiquid. And unless you had a windfall, that took a long long time to amass. (And if you're buying THIS place, chances are you are not "trading up.")

Yeah, this was pain in the *past* -- but I was just trying to put it in perspective as if you had the "luxury" of paying off the downpayment over time. (Which of course you don't)

Posted by: tybur6 at March 19, 2009 2:59 PM

rates are actually at 4.875% today for a 30-year fixed conforming. this does apply to co-ops. rates have been hovering around 5% for a while and are coming down in the wake of the Fed announcement yesterday re: buying Treasuries. if you put 20% down on this apt at asking, your monthly mortgage is 1,689. add the maintenance and you're up to 2,147. and even this number is inflated compared to your true cost if you factor in tax breaks for mortgage interest and real estate taxes.

at 20%, the down payment would be 80K, not 90K. not sure why one would conceptualize the down payment as being paid out monthly over the course of 4 years. i think it assumes that your apt is a wasting asset that will be depleted by 20% in 4 years. in normal markets, a home buyer recoups their down payment (and any other equity) upon selling the apt, and under those circumstances, the "cost" of the down payment is more of an opportunity cost, i.e. what else could you have done with that 80K for those four years? if you put it in a savings account, it would generate about 1.875% right now. not a heck of a lot of opportunity cost lost.

one last point, since yesterday someone was prattling on about how high income earners lose the mortgage interest deduction because of the AMT. simply not true. it's actually quite the opposite -- the mortgage interest deduction can reduce your tax so that the AMT no longer applies (or applies with less effect). i got hit with the AMT in 2007 and bought real estate in early 2008 in part to combat the AMT. i can tell you first hand that paying mortgage interest and real estate taxes enabled me to get a sizable tax return at both the state and the federal level, and from a tax perspective, the only economic difference between 2007 and 2008 for me was that i was paying mortgage interest and real estate taxes in '08 but not '07.

Posted by: panamac at March 19, 2009 3:14 PM

Blah. I love Windsor Terrace, but to me the whole point of the neighborhood is that you don't have to live in a big prewar building. I agree the location's in the middle of nowhere retail-wise, but to the Fresh Direct comment, there is actually a decent-sized grocery store a few blocks away.

Posted by: betterside at March 19, 2009 3:44 PM

AMT caps a person on amount of deduction one can claim on tax return. So it doesn't sound logically that taking on an add'l deduction item (mortgage interest in this case) would actually help lower impact of AMT. Not disputing your claim (cause I'm no tax expert) but it's peculiar scenario I'll go test out in Turbo Tax tonight. Hope you're correct, cause I'm going to buy a super expensive house if I ever hit the lottory

Posted by: more4less at March 19, 2009 5:44 PM

All you people are guessing at monthly carrying costs, but here's some real world numbers: We paid 425k in 2003 for a 1 br, put down 25% (107k,, if i recall). Mortage was around 6 pct. even, maint was around 800. Total was 2600/mo. BUT, after tax deduction for mort. interest and 50% of monthly, it was $1800 something. That's not bad.

If you got this place for 350k, your actual costs would be considerably lower, say probably around $1,500 with 25% down.

Last I checked, bitter renters still don't get any tax benefits. You buy in a co-op, usually around half the monthly is deductible, plus mortgage interest.

Obviously in a declining or flat market, the question is whether your money is safer as a dp, in the market, or in your mattress. (probably the last). But actual carrying costs and rents are a lot closer than many people think.

Posted by: Bolder at March 20, 2009 12:06 AM

Bolder... so you're telling me that your TAX LIABILITY... i.e., how much you paid in federal/state taxes was reduced by $9,600 because of your mortgage and co-op taxes?

NO... I don't buy that. These are deductions on your *taxable* income, not how much you pay.

Posted by: tybur6 at March 20, 2009 10:15 AM

« Inside Third & Bond: Week 76 House of the Day: 601 6th Street »

March 19, 2009

Co-op of the Day: 135 Prospect Park SW, #F12

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