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February 24, 2009

Quote of the Day

You have the effects of the MAB [Mutant Asset Bubble] implosion wrong. The MAB has hurt poor people greatly. If you go to subprime areas, you see that it is poor, working class people who were swindled by subprime brokers and are now losing their credit scores, their houses, and in many cases down payments and closing costs. This is very serious. In addition, all the empty, boarded up houses just encourage crime and destroy the property values of their neighbors' houses. In sum, poor people were screwed on the way up and they're being screwed on the way down. The rich are not going to suffer as much.

— by mopar in Last Week's Biggest Sales

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Comments

I agree with this quote.
That is life.

Posted by: sam at February 24, 2009 3:29 PM

mopar! this is a crowning achievement for you.

Posted by: wasder at February 24, 2009 3:30 PM

And it was a direct PWNING of the What.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at February 24, 2009 3:31 PM

For PWNING, I preferred benson's takedown of BHO.

Posted by: wasder at February 24, 2009 3:36 PM

Agree, wasder, that was good.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at February 24, 2009 3:37 PM

Hi folks;

If I may be permitted an indulgence, here is my statement to BHO. Sort of in line with what MOPAR said, but not of the sort that lends itself to QOTD (still waiting for that day...):

"Hey BHO;

Spare me your trite observations about life in the Great Depression, you ass. My parents grew up in the Dreat Depression, both children in broken immigrant homes. I grew up with their haunted memories of what life was like for them at that time. It is exactly for that reason that I find people like you to be despicable, people who would post their glee on the internet over the prospect of another Great Depression, so that they could pick up a "deal" on a house.

Why don't you grow up and think about the implications of what you write on this site?

Posted by: benson at February 24, 2009 12:56 PM"

Posted by: benson at February 24, 2009 3:41 PM

As with most everything, the poor are gonna get screwed worse than the rich which is a shame. And I agree that there will be some suffering because of this.
But I think (hope) we might be surprised at the realtive lack of devastation a few years from now. Part of the reason that foreclosures/bankruptcy are so disruptive is that since they have been relativley rare, the market was able to punish that behavior without affecting their overall customer base too much.
What we have now is so many more people getting into these kinds of scenarios that the market is simply going to have to adjust. They can't not do business with such a broad swath of the population which will open up more opportunties for peole who have found themselves int hese situations. Sadly what might prevent that from happening is the government intervention with the "preventing forclosures at all costs" mentality which will artifically pick winners and losers based on timing rather than actions.

Posted by: Ledbury at February 24, 2009 3:41 PM

I agree with this quote- but there's always the other side. Many sub-prime loans were not made for purchase- they were cash-out refinance loans. So the borrower had a loan on a house they could actually afford- but due to the real estate bubble- they suddenly were sitting on assets worth a lot of cash. Why not unlock the value with a cash out refi? You can always refi again once the teaser rate expires. Well- when real estate prices crashed- so did their finances. No ability to refi at a teaser rate and now they are underwater and looking at forclosure. But we should ask- what did those borrowers do with the money? Its easy to think most subprime borrowers are victims- until we see what many spent the cash on.

Posted by: panda10 at February 24, 2009 3:44 PM

benson--you could write that same quote out everyday this year and I would never tire of it. If I had your address I would send you flowers right now. Despicable is the exact perfect word for someone who tries to talk down the market and make light of other people's travails to get a good deal on a house.

Mopar-sorry about my participation in the highjacking of your thread, your moment of glory.

Posted by: wasder at February 24, 2009 3:44 PM

besides clawing back from the false prophets of Wall St, can we also claw back all those false profits made by the mortgage loan officers, brokers etc. etc.

Posted by: dittoburg at February 24, 2009 3:46 PM

Well said Mopar!

Benson, you tell 'em!!

Posted by: TownhouseLady at February 24, 2009 3:47 PM

Actually we heard some interesting statistics today that the banks are pulling back from foreclosures. it has always been a widely held viewpoint that banks don't want to foreclose and even moreso don't want to own the properties. What they are seeing is a clampdown by municipalities to extract fees/fines/taxes/etc out of the banks once they see a cash register that now owns the properties. The banks are pulling back on this and letting the bad loans stay. They are able to package the bad loans and sell them to the government and other private entities. Yes, bad loans are being bought now in large numbers.

You will see this soon in the overall national foreclosure numbers and, although the actual number of people in arrears is not declining, the number of foreclosures will decline.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at February 24, 2009 3:49 PM

Mopar, you are so right on the button.

Benson, your day will come.

Posted by: bayridgegirl at February 24, 2009 4:03 PM

Yeah, I just got off the phone with my lawyer discussing the latest contract changes by the seller, and boy was I surprised to see this.

Posted by: mopar at February 24, 2009 4:20 PM

If you live with your parents are you considered poor?

Now What?

Someday I may need to pay rent

Posted by: crimsonson at February 24, 2009 4:22 PM

This is for 'dumbest quote of the day, right?

Posted by: Sizzle at February 24, 2009 4:25 PM

Based on personal experience with certain members of my wife's family, I have to agree with panda10. There is a definite subset of poor who were not screwed both ways and whom I, as a bailing-out taxpayer, have little sympathy for. I'm guessing they are a small group though.

And lets not forget taxpaying low-income renters, they didn't lie about their income, they didn't continually and unrealistically continually refi and splurge on crap, they got nothing from this, and they will get nothing.

Posted by: dittoburg at February 24, 2009 4:43 PM

darn! I just put in a huge rant and it's being reviewed? is that because I sweared?

Posted by: joe_the_bummer at February 24, 2009 4:45 PM

No, its because your grammar is atrocious. :)

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at February 24, 2009 4:47 PM

ditto -

"they got nothing from this, and they will get nothing."

Some of us renters are hoping that we'll get reduced real estate prices. :)

Posted by: cwbuecheler at February 24, 2009 4:55 PM

I think it was not liberal enough. definitely not liberal enough. stoner, can I have it back? it was something like:

the cause of the economic crisis was irresponsible borrowing. quit crying for these people who are all going across the street to rent similar houses, only cheaper. they screwed you! their credit scores were already low or they wouldn't be called "subprime" to begin with, and often took home cash at closing.

how are you measuring how much money rich people lost? (you are not, you're just being a bleeding heart). didn't a whole swath of professionals just lose the ability to retire? didn't a bunch of middle class kids just lose half of their college funds?

Forget about who "was more than happy to facilitate" the crime of overborrowing (banks, brokers). The crime was committed by the BORROWERS. If you borrow money and don't pay it back, you screw the person who lent it to you. If it can be proven deliberate, it is fraud.

I will probably lose my financial job this year because a bunch of flunkies had to have the awesome kitchens that their friends had.

Stop watching so much TV. No politician and no media outlet will ever spend time telling people that they were all bad and should be ashamed. They will find a villian, and that's all you will see in the news.

Posted by: joe_the_bummer at February 24, 2009 4:58 PM

Thanks, dittoburg! As one of the great forgotten, I agree with that. And certainly with Mopar and benson! My folks were well into their forties when my sister and I surprised them with an appearance, but I also remember my mother being haunted by the Great Depression and the Holocaust as well. There was always a free floating fear that it could all happen again. It wasn't until my dad retired and they went to Florida did I ever get a feeling that that underlying discomfort had finally gone.

Posted by: bxgrl at February 24, 2009 4:59 PM

Somehow i would have a lot more confidence if reagan were giving this speech tonight, not Obama. And i say that with a heavy heart.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at February 24, 2009 5:01 PM

for the record, I don't think anyone here truly would trade a great depression for a bargain on a brownstone if they thought about it for a minute. most of the bears are just rooting for a fair shot at an affordable place, after being tantalized for a decade.

Posted by: joe_the_bummer at February 24, 2009 5:07 PM

"Forget about who "was more than happy to facilitate" the crime of overborrowing (banks, brokers). The crime was committed by the BORROWERS."

Uh, no, I'm not going to forget it. Preying on the fact that a lot of people are ignorant, ill-informed, ill-educated, and generally not good with money in order to try to fatten one's own pockets is equally worthy of punishment.

We're not trying to deny people's responsibility for their actions here - the sub-primers should've learned more about what they were getting in to. No question. Also, city and state governments should've been way more on top of what was happening. The New Yorker piece on the Florida real estate market, a few weeks ago, was horrifying. The whole state government just looked the other way while the bubble grew and grew, founded by insane speculation and extremely shady dealings on the part of realtors, brokers, AND buyers.

Everyone's in this together. There are too many guilty parties to try and point individual fingers.

Posted by: cwbuecheler at February 24, 2009 5:10 PM

why, dave?

Posted by: bxgrl at February 24, 2009 5:10 PM

Lord, enough with the Reagan worship. He set us on this path.

Posted by: SnarkSlope at February 24, 2009 5:12 PM

The one thing from Joe's rant that I do agree with is that nobody wants to hear the whole truth. It is far to easy to pick a scapegoat, and there are plenty to go around. But the whole truth is more complex that this QOTD or Joe's response.

Posted by: wasder at February 24, 2009 5:13 PM

I agree with you, cwb. Too many people actually trusted the "expertise" of subprime lenders because as we all know, buying a house is a very complicated deal. These people- especially if they work the bank I've used for years, are going to come across as helpful, and more knowledgable than I. And how can I even know if a professional is lying or not when I don't have that level of expertise? I mean you can and should educate yourself, but these lenders also did serious manipulation of peoples' emotions and desire to build a solid financial future for their families. It's marketing.

Posted by: bxgrl at February 24, 2009 5:15 PM

Joe;

Most of us can recognize an intelligent Team Bear response from those of the loons. As I mentioned a few days ago, your comments have been a great addition to the scene here at Brownstoner.

PS: ahhh, Ronald Reagan. My hero!!!! Sorry, Snark, but I really wish he were around today (Bxgrl, don't bite my head off too).

Posted by: benson at February 24, 2009 5:17 PM

Bxgrl and CWB;

Remember what the Romans advised more than 2000 years ago: caveat emptor!

Posted by: benson at February 24, 2009 5:19 PM

benson - as I noted: I'm not trying to excuse buyers of their responsibility. I've been watching a lot of the home-buying shows on HGTV lately, and the way some first-time or even multi-time buyers walk into things having done zero research just blows me away.

They don't even know basic things like average area prices, let alone how to compare mortgage rates, or understand what the hell their broker is talking about when he/she starts bringing up adjustable-rates and interest-only mortgages. And this is *after* the sub-prime crash when you'd think people would be a lot more wary.

There are a LOT of people out there who seem to think buying a home is essentially the same thing as buying a toaster, only bigger. You just go pick one out that you like and think you can afford. :P

Posted by: cwbuecheler at February 24, 2009 5:24 PM

cw - just a figure of speech. I have only seen one tv source implying that some blame falls on borrowers -- 60 minutes. it's undercovered because it doesn't get good ratings.

But I don't know where you guys get this idea that rich people have been hurt less... I mean, where do you even start to try to justify a comment like that? don't you have to correct for the fact that they were already rich? Of course their windows aren't boarded up! how much does a millionaire have to lose to be hurt as badly as a person who gets forclosed on? half a million? done! his banking job? done! The pain has been spread very wide. Look how much Prince Alaweed has lost on Citigroup. Virtually his whole investment. Billions. that will leave a mark.

Posted by: joe_the_bummer at February 24, 2009 5:25 PM

Sure the rich might get hurt more on a purely dollar for dollar basis but it seems Joe that they have more options available to them and therefore the dollar loss is not the same devastating situation that it is for someone with fewer means and more dependence on their property value for the retirement.

Posted by: wasder at February 24, 2009 5:30 PM

Wasder - that reminds me of an eggcorn I once saw, someone was complaining of being an "escape goat".

I imagine this is the kind of thing one only finds in the possession of certain criminals in mountainous greek islands.

Posted by: dittoburg at February 24, 2009 5:30 PM

I don't recall ever saying that rich people have been hurt less. They've certainly been hurt badly by the crashing economy.

It's nonetheless difficult to feel as sorry for the guy who even after his investments have come crashing down, still has *vastly* more money than I do, as opposed to the person who's now living on government cheese.

Posted by: cwbuecheler at February 24, 2009 5:32 PM

ditto--as much as I want to go there with you I am not getting your "eggcorn" reference. Does it have anything to do with the swahili-speaking woodchuck the What is friends with?

Posted by: wasder at February 24, 2009 5:34 PM

You used "scapegoat" in your 5.13 post. Sorry, should have referenced it.

Posted by: dittoburg at February 24, 2009 5:37 PM

cw yes! I too am disgusted that even now it's just a big puppy shopping trip to these people!

"so if we sign the goofy mortgage we get the place with the pool? sweet!"

bxgirl I bought this ugly sportcoat at Paul Smith for 400 bucks, and the guy there said that it fit and looked great, and I trusted him because he was clearly gay. Now I know that it was always ugly. I don't know... who's to blame. I think I am.

Benson, thanks! I missed your comment the other day. This is seriously addictive and if I keep this up I promise I'll be unemployed soon, but I just can't resist pulling the pin on a big comment-grenade and rolling it in.

Posted by: joe_the_bummer at February 24, 2009 5:38 PM

oh -- cw I meant the original comment. I dunno, I'm not rich -- but I do feel sorry for my 50 year old cousin who can't retire. definitely not poor but played by the rules and did what suze orman said, and is now looking at retiring on 1/2 X

wasd yeah that's my point, there's just no way to compare the situations. I don't feel sorry for the Prince. Otherwise, bummer all around.

Posted by: joe_the_bummer at February 24, 2009 5:43 PM

Joe, I don't watch much TV. Can't you tell by my over-liberal comments?

My comments are based on actual experience. I am hunting for a house in a subprime area and I am constantly meeting people who are working-class immigrants in their 50s (grocery store checkers, etc.) who are close to foreclosure. They don't speak English. They are humble, hardworking, modest people. There is no way in hell they were gaming the system.

It's what cw said: They were taken advantage of.

In late 2007, I met a contractor/flipper who bragged about being part of deals where the real estate agent filled out all the paperwork for non-English speakers. The implication was the agent faked the numbers.

My mother's house cleaner in California, also an immigrant, bought a house she could afford and no one told her the ARM would reset. In California, you don't use a lawyer.

How many people would knowingly buy a house they knew they couldn't pay for? Maybe flippers.

Posted by: mopar at February 24, 2009 5:55 PM

Sorry to interrupt the lovefest, but a little history on Team Bull, courtesy of a "loon." Eighteen months ago: Buy this house, it'll be worth 8 million in 2012! One year ago: Wake up! Housing prices never go down! Six months ago: Um, Brooklyn is different? Today: Can you believe the character of these people, cheering on a Great Depression?

I for one am sick of you moving the goalposts every time you lose an argument --whose terms are fixed and clear --on the specifics of Brooklyn real estate prices. As a last refuge, you have chosen to moralize the bearishness of the bears --it's classic shoot the messenger, and you ought to be ashamed. It was only after The What absolutely trounced you on the facts that you all started to comment on his rudeness, etc., and for this you are nothing but intellectual cowards. DIBS, your total ignorance never ceases to amaze me, but in your comment about Reagan --in the face of Obama's overwhelming approval numbers --you outdo yourself as a hubristic dimwit. A pox on all your overlevered houses, which the taxpayer now has the great privilege of subsidizing.

Posted by: Whuh at February 24, 2009 5:57 PM

"Forget about who "was more than happy to facilitate" the crime of overborrowing (banks, brokers). The crime was committed by the BORROWERS. If you borrow money and don't pay it back, you screw the person who lent it to you. If it can be proven deliberate, it is fraud.

I will probably lose my financial job this year because a bunch of flunkies had to have the awesome kitchens that their friends had."

This is the QOTD!

" but I also remember my mother being haunted by the Great Depression and the Holocaust as well."

Bxgrl can you please set this story strait. The Great Depression happen in the US 1229-1933 and the "Holocaust" (There was many so I guess you mean the one that happen in Europe).

"Preying on the fact that a lot of people are ignorant, ill-informed, ill-educated, and generally not good with money in order to try to fatten one's own pockets is equally worthy of punishment"

Oh no!!!! The foundation of the Mutant Asset Bubble was ** DRUM ROLL*** Greed and Delusion!

Now the payoff..

"You have the effects of the MAB [Mutant Asset Bubble] implosion wrong. "

I do?? I think my performance speaks for itself..

The MAB has hurt poor people greatly. If you go to subprime areas, you see that it is poor, working class people who were swindled by subprime brokers and are now losing their credit scores, their houses, and in many cases down payments and closing costs.

The Assheads beLIEve the hype of the MAB. Just buy a house and your rich! They had Mortgages for Retards to fulfill those dreams but now it's a nightmare no one wants to accept responsibility , give me a break....

This is very serious. In addition, all the empty, boarded up houses just encourage crime and destroy the property values of their neighbors' houses. In sum, poor people were screwed on the way up and they're being screwed on the way down. The rich are not going to suffer as much."

OOOHHHH Remember the Asshat Movement?? Those Assnuts live in those Neighborhoods now and I wonder whats going to happen to property values...

Brownstoner there was better quotes....

The What

Someday this war is gonna end...

Posted by: Return of The What at February 24, 2009 5:58 PM

"only after The What absolutely trounced you on the facts that you all started to comment on his rudeness, etc., and for this you are nothing but intellectual cowards."

Yes, you've got our number, we only started to comment on his rudeness after October '08.

Wait a minute - wasn't that after he had already been banned once from Brownstoner for rudeness and incivility and threatening violence and had to come back with a different name - the "return of the what".

darn facts.

Posted by: dittoburg at February 24, 2009 6:05 PM

joe- when it comes to coats and the ability to look in the mirror- yeah, you're right.You're to blame:-) But that's a little simplistic when it comes to extremely complicated subjects like finances and housebuying.

YOu go to a cardiologist because you have a heart problem- if you're smart, you'll educate yourself as much as possible and ask a lot of questions but ultimately you have to cede to the doctor's years of specialized education, experience and reputation. And if something goes wrong, the doctor is the one who is responsible because he put himself in the position of saying, I know more than you about your heart.

Everyone should be a homeowner was one of Bush's pet policies. It's a mark of financial responsibility. It's "wealth." You really care for your family- whereas renters were looked at askance. (we saw it here on b'stoner- many times).

I'm not trying to make excuses for those who went overboard or didn't do the research- but as mopar said, many of these people were targeted.

benson- I'll forgive your love of Ronald Reagan if you can admit that trickledown economics was the world's dumbest concept- and I think that's been overwhelmingly proven. The Republican Party is not about making good policy, or pragmatism or caring for the taxpayers- its all about clinging to an ideology and caring for taxpayer money. Not only did the ideology crash and burn in the last election, but the irony of the GOP claiming to be the party of fiscal responsibility after the debacle of the last 8 years is really quite funny. The GOP has become a party of a lifestyle- ultra conservative, rigid and dogmatic. I will never understand the adoration of Ronald Reagan- his biggest crime (or heroic feat depending on your viewpoint) was to make the GOP a social/moral cultural brand, not a political or governing entity. (ok benson- I'm ready for ya! :-)

Posted by: bxgrl at February 24, 2009 6:20 PM

What, in the interest of storytelling I expanded the things that haunted my mother in her life. I certainly know when the Great Depression was- she feared a repeat of that all her life, as did my dad. A repeat of the Holocaust was her second great fear. It was mentioned in the context of how certain iconic events effect even the children who never went through them.

Posted by: bxgrl at February 24, 2009 6:24 PM

"What, in the interest of storytelling I expanded the things that haunted my mother in her life. I certainly know when the Great Depression was- she feared a repeat of that all her life, as did my dad. A repeat of the Holocaust was her second great fear. It was mentioned in the context of how certain iconic events effect even the children who never went through them."

BBBBBIIIIIZZZZZZ Wrong answer!

Please Don Pardo repeat the question for our contestant.

Bxgrl can you please set this story strait. The Great Depression happen in the US 1229-1933 and the "Holocaust" (There was many so I guess you mean the one that happen in Europe).

The What

Someday this fallacy is gonna end...

Posted by: Return of The What at February 24, 2009 7:44 PM

Whuh -

I'm not a member of team bull -- I believe property values in Brooklyn will continue to drop well into 2009 and probably 2010 -- and I still think it's ridiculous to celebrate an economic meltdown the way What and others are doing.

Posted by: cwbuecheler at February 24, 2009 7:56 PM

"Forget about who "was more than happy to facilitate" the crime of overborrowing (banks, brokers). The crime was committed by the BORROWERS...I will probably lose my financial job this year because a bunch of flunkies had to have the awesome kitchens that their friends had."

I'm sorry you're worried about your job, but I just don't believe your conspiracy theory that poor people figured out how to trick Wall Street into giving them billions in loans they couldn't pay off, and thereby brought down the financial system.

The fault lies with the professional financiers whose entire job was deciding who to give loans to and who not to give loans to, and who chose to give loans to people they knew couldn't pay them off. There's a big share of fault also to the geniuses who bought these loans because they thought they'd figured out a way to make money even if the creditor defaulted. And the insane masters of the universe who allowed ridiculous leverage and ignored every warning sign that this was insane.

All these guys, frankly, knew full well that a LOT of the little fish wouldn't be able to pay off these loans, but gave them the loan anyway. Because, hey, there's money to be made in loan origination, selling bundled securities, etc. And, did we mention, these GENIUSES have figured out a way to make money even if the people borrowing money default?

Seriously, it's kind of crazy to blame unsophisticated people who took free money on what they were told were incredible terms. It makes a LOT more sense to blame the so-called financial geniuses who gave them free money on false pretenses, and thought they'd be able to make a fortune doing it.

Posted by: lookin fer stuff at February 24, 2009 8:04 PM

What- I guess you really don't understand english. I gave you the courtesy of an explanation, not to pass some infantile test of yours. I envision you just hugging yourself with glee, and wiggling in your chair with delight at your own wit, such as it is. I have no idea why I waste my time on someone so incapable of the simplest civil human interaction. I guess you amuse me.

Given your limited understanding of these things I can see where you would continue to behave like an immature class clown and of course your childish behavior is simply a way of demanding my attention- there, I given you 5 seconds of serious consideration.

Sweetie- you're getting tiresome. When you have a legitimate point to make, please do. Until then, remember- the dates were 1929-1933, straight and strait are 2 entirely different words, and yes- that Holocaust. I realize with your limited capabilities and knowledge of history you may not understand the full implications and effects of it, so I suggest you read Holocaust for Dummies. It'll be clear, concise and simple enough even for you.

Posted by: bxgrl at February 24, 2009 8:29 PM

the rich were screwed by the likes of Bernie Madoff, the poor are being screwed by the mortgage implosion. Most rich people don't even notice the bump in the road. They have extra good suspension.
The definition of being rich is that while others flail and die off by the side of the road, you sail by dressed in white and sipping French mineral water with a twist of lime.

Posted by: mcKenzie at February 24, 2009 8:31 PM

Well put, mcKenzie. And isn't it interesting that people were taken in by Madoff?

Posted by: mopar at February 24, 2009 8:48 PM

I just saw this:
http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/02/18/map.states.foreclosures/index.html

Interesting look at the foreclosures by state. Only 4,861 in the entire sate of NY.

The majority of foreclosures have been in California and Florida.

A few states have have given the rest of us a bad name...

Posted by: christopher at February 24, 2009 11:12 PM

Hey Whuh;

What the hell are you talking about??

I set the goalposts for my being on Team Bull a few months ago, predicitng that the average selling price in Brooklyn would fall less than 20%. And you know what? If I lose the bet, it is not big deal. I've lost debates before, and if I lose this one, I'll have learned something. No big deal.

If you would read my message to Joe carefully, I said that there are many intelligent members of Team Bear. Having said that, I stand by my messages to BHO and the What. It is one thing to engage in an intellectual debate about the economy, the housing market, etc. It's quite another to respond with glee about the prospect of another Great Depression.

Finally, you don't know me, and you don't know my financial condition, so quit your speculation. I am in my 50's, and as such, have more than 75% of the equity in my house.

Posted by: benson at February 24, 2009 11:59 PM

"It's quite another to respond with glee about the prospect of another Great Depression."

Benson what about the "glee" that the retard had before 2009??? Every idiot who thought buy buying a house they was on the road to riches! During those years (I'm a Broker) it was very hard to convince these people that they was making big mistakes and now we have to live with that crap???? I so sorry but FECK 'EM!!!! America is in a depression and it will be hard on the retards!!!

"Finally, you don't know me, and you don't know my financial condition, so quit your speculation. I am in my 50's, and as such, have more than 75% of the equity in my house."

You a retard Baby-boomer and you will get your Ass handed to you! I wonder how upset you will be when the Plutocratic crowd comes for you Social Security money (Yeah that's next retard) I wonder how upset you will be with BHO and The What....

"It's quite another to respond with glee about the prospect of another Great Depression."

I have a raging HARD-ON! I can't wait....

The What (Cry me a river...)

Someday this war is gonna end....

Posted by: Return of The What at February 25, 2009 12:40 AM

"Hey BHO;

Eat one, Benson. My people were lynched during the Great Depression while trying to escape 50% unemployment (versus your 25%). With all due respect, what your parents went through aint touchin' that. I'm haunted everyday about what my people went through (and still are going through), the latest episode curtesy of the NY Post.

"It is exactly for that reason that I find people like you to be despicable, people who would post their glee on the internet over the prospect of another Great Depression, so that they could pick up a 'deal' on a house."

You goddamn right I'm gleeful. Gleeful about a price collapse, not a depression. But I can't have my cake now can I? THEY (all who participated) wrapped the global economy around home prices, not me. This depression is a means to an end. It was all good in the hood when prices were 3-4 X income.

"Why don't you grow up and think about the implications of what you write on this site?"

Implications??? You guys give me too much power.

Team Bear We Go Hard...Team Bear We Go Hard...

***Bid half off peak comps***

Posted by: Brownstones Half Off at February 25, 2009 1:13 AM

Sorry, BHO, no free lunches being dished out. You got to earn your skittles and your downpayment. Go home and play in your sandbox.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at February 25, 2009 8:03 AM

"You guys give me too much power."

You are mistaking the annoyance that comes with your tedious negativity with power. You are a person who knows not who they are and therefore wants everyone else to suffer with you. Find yourself first my friend.

Posted by: wasder at February 25, 2009 9:12 AM

"I stand by my messages to BHO and the What."

I know you don't agree with me on this benson but I draw a big distinction between What and BHO. The What for better or for worse has his point of view and is consistent: gentrification has driven poor people, largely African American, out of neighborhoods like Clinton Hill and he is pissed off. Of course he is way to reductionist in his "theories" about urban demographics but he has a POV that is consistent and certainly not one that I haven't heard before. BHO on the other hand pretends to be on What's team, but really he is just another aspirational asshat wanting to climb the very same "ladder" that What hates.

What, when will you figure out that BHO is using you?

Posted by: wasder at February 25, 2009 9:18 AM

Yes, but the What, though consistent, is championing the "taking back" of neighborhoods and not without some hope of a little violence here and there. Though his position is consistent, its also nothing more than self proclaimed entitlement and racist at that. Does that make him better or worse than BHO???

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at February 25, 2009 9:29 AM

It makes him neither better nor worse than BHO but I don't really believe What is violent or advocates violence. After many months of trying to understand What I have come to the conclusion that his violent passages are rhetorical devices, ones that I disapprove of but something that somehow make sense to me on some gut level. I think some of it has to do with the fact that What and I live so close to each other. I have seen this neighborhood through his eyes and therefore I have more tolerance for his rants. I hope you particularly understand Dave that I do not condone when he says things that are homophobic or sexist or racist. I do not and point out my displeasure regularly about his more outrageous statements. But like I said, I think I know where he is coming from even though I don't agree with his world view.

BHO on the other hand espouses and cackles about the very same things but if you read between the lines he is really just another person who wants to buy a rowhouse in Brooklyn (which obviously is fine as I just did the same, it is the hypocrisy which bothers me). He gloms on to the What's POV when it suits him because he thinks that if he keeps hammering his position that the market will follow his great influence and lead him to the promised land of an affordable house. Again, I have no problem with someone wanting to buy an affordable house, but to do so while cackling about the potential misfortune of everyone who did the same thing is despicable.

So, in my world view I would much rather know What than BHO because at least What's position is clear and unequivocal.

Posted by: wasder at February 25, 2009 10:24 AM

"What, when will you figure out that BHO is using you?"

Divide and conquer.

"...cackling about the potential misfortune of everyone who did the same thing [buy affordably]..."

Oxymoron.

Team Bear We Go Hard...Team Bear We Go Hard...

***Bid half off peak comps***

Posted by: Brownstones Half Off at February 25, 2009 10:50 AM

"Divide and conquer."

Nope, just being honest.

Posted by: wasder at February 25, 2009 11:42 AM

And since you said affordable, what is an affordable townhouse in Clinton Hill in your definition?

Posted by: wasder at February 25, 2009 11:46 AM

"And since you said affordable, what is an affordable townhouse in Clinton Hill in your definition?"

Same as traditional lending standards, 3X income.

***Bid half off peak comps***

Posted by: Brownstones Half Off at February 25, 2009 2:24 PM

That means that every house has a different value depending on the income level of who is buying it? Seems highly subjective to me. However, by that standard I guess I did pretty well in the affordability department.

Posted by: wasder at February 25, 2009 2:46 PM

"That means that every house has a different value depending on the income level of who is buying it?"

You're so smart. Now take all those different values and calculate the median. Multiply it by three and voila! Median affordable home price per hood.

"Seems highly subjective to me."

Reported income, yes. But not by much. You tend to have a reasonable idea how much your neighbors make.

"However, by that standard I guess I did pretty well in the affordability department."

Assuming you paid $750K (VERY CONSERVATIVE to your advantage) that means your houshold annual income is $250K = $4K (max rental) X 12 (mos) + $200K [job(s)]. You're an artist, right? Income up and down, no? I guess you "married well". Congratulations.

***Bid half off peak comps***

Posted by: Brownstones Half Off at February 25, 2009 4:58 PM

I don't know why I am going here with you but I am genuinely curious about the notion that home value is linked to the income of the buyer and not determined by some intrinsic qualities of the property itself. The house next to me sold at a similar price level to my own, but the one across the street is occupied by a family that is distinctly less well off than me or my neighbor. That house, were it to be on the market (which it is not) would certainly command less than half of what mine did just because it is in a state of some disrepair. Can a house not on the market be a comp? And if not why does the income level (very low) of my neighbor across the street have any bearing on the value of my house.

Secondly, when you said in line with "lending standards" that is what I was referring to--how much mortgage I could afford. My mortgage is about that amount not the purchase price. The term "Lending standards" seems to indicate how much of a mortgage one qualifies for, not the total value of the house. Please correct me if I am wrong.

And while I am occasionally artistic, I am a small business owner primarily.

Lastly I will say this to you BHO. I don't want to keep having a fight with you. I know that you are intelligent and capable of being a reasonable person. I will do my best for a little while to stay away from your posts and we will see how we can get along. I hope you can understand that there is very little about your financial analysis that I object to and that I respect your knowledge on these matters. I just wonder why you have to be such an asshole about it. You take what could be a simple winning argument for yourself and spend a lot of time rubbing other people in it and I don't get that. Its not the way I was brought up and its not who I am. IF you can tell me why you are so angry at folks like myself who are in a reasonably similar boat to yours I might understand you better.

Posted by: wasder at February 25, 2009 5:19 PM

"Lastly I will say this to you BHO. I don't want to keep having a fight with you. I know that you are intelligent and capable of being a reasonable person. I will do my best for a little while to stay away from your posts and we will see how we can get along. "

BHO just PWNED Wasder! Man that was ugly!!! WADSER got KTFO!!!!!!!!

Team Bear We Go Hard...Team Bear We Go Hard...

The What (Wasder do you want me get you some ice? ROTFLMMFAO!!!)

Someday this war is gonna end...

Posted by: Return of The What at February 25, 2009 10:54 PM

How was that PWNing?

Posted by: wasder at February 26, 2009 12:34 AM

"How was that PWNing?"

ROTFLMMFAO! Dazed and Confused...

I still love ya Wasder. Of all the Asshats your intentions are good (I mean that).

The What

Someday this war is gonna end...