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February 6, 2009
It's Tough Out There for a Middle-Class New Yorker
“Income levels that would enable a very comfortable lifestyle in other locales barely suffice to provide the basics in New York City,” says the the Center for an Urban Future in a new report that merely provides data to back up what all city residents already new. The group estimates that the same quality of life that costs $50,000 a year in Houston will run you $123,322 in the Big Apple; San Francisco is a distant second at $95,489 with LA at $80,583 and Philadelphia at $69,196. In addition, many New Yorkers put up with commutes that double the national average of 25 minutes. One Brooklyn Bridge Park even gets an unnamed reference: "If it wasn't already clear that the cost of living in New York City is greatly out-of-whack with the rest of the country, it certainly became apparent in early 2008 when a new condo development in Brooklyn Heights began selling individual parking spaces—not apartments, parking spaces—for as much as $280,000." So it's no surprise that the report finds that many people have been giving up on New York. In fact, twice as many people with bachelor's degrees left New York in 2005-2006 than in the prior two-year period. So what's to do: Among other recommendations, the report suggests diversifying the economy, focus on basic infrastructure and quality of life issues rather than building flashy new projects and increase housing stock that is affordable to the middle class.
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Comments
I can't believe that Chicago is lower than Philadelphia. That makes no sense whatsoever.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at February 6, 2009 10:04 AM
I think $123,000 counts as a millionaire if you're Dan cantor.
Posted by: dittoburg at February 6, 2009 10:04 AM
Now that does specify Manhattan as the place with the highest cost of living. Where does Brooklyn fall on that chart?
Posted by: wasder at February 6, 2009 10:08 AM
"In fact, twice as many people with bachelor's degrees left New York in 2005-2006 than in the prior two-year period. "
Perfect example of how to select a tidbit of data to make a point. What about people with no college degree and what about people with even higher levels of education.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at February 6, 2009 10:08 AM
More importantly, why is there no data for Lodi, NJ?
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at February 6, 2009 10:09 AM
How Much Does it Take to be Middle Class?
Lodi, NJ ------------------- $12.48
Posted by: bayridgegirl at February 6, 2009 10:12 AM
New York looks like it may be starting to be over. This is the point I was making last night on another thread. At some point the equation changes and people will start moving away rather than moving in. The quality of day to day life is just not that great here to warrant such a high cost. To some, who must be see at the latest restaurants or fashionista events or be walking distance to the Opera it may be worth it, but to those of us who prefer good, un-fancy food, never go to fashionista events and think one opera every three or so years is just right, it is beginning not to make too much sense to stay and put up with all the hassle and attitude.
Posted by: sam at February 6, 2009 10:14 AM
For me living in NYC is not about opera or fashionista events or anything really hip or cool any more. IT is about the diversity of the community that I live in, about the friends I have in my neighborhood, and the fact that everything I could ever need is within 5 blocks of me.
Posted by: wasder at February 6, 2009 10:17 AM
But sam, a lot of that depends on what line of work you're in. Our whole firm could up and move to podunk but we'd be in an environment where we would have no day-to-day interaction with others in the business.
And why do any of the trades stay??? people like electricians, plumbers, welders? As hard as it often is for many people to keep up a "middle class" lifestyle, they still love being in NYC.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at February 6, 2009 10:20 AM
im gonna be brutally honest with you people. i moved TO nyc because it was the cheapest alternative when all things are considered. tho i did just move from across the river in jersey. i dont know, i mean you make more money here, there are more services available. also if you are that destitute it's the easiest place in the WORLD to panhandle for money. what does anger me the most is that we have the highest taxes for cigarettes and other vices. grrrr. but because of the influx of bumbleheads from across the country who want to fuse a sex in the city lifestyle meets weeds, it's also the easiest place to sell people faux drugs and make a ton of cash. okay that was a total tangent... point being, yeah it's difficult, but it would be much more difficult to live in a place like buffalo. so big deal rent their might be 300 instead of 3000. unless you have a ton in savings, how the heck are you going to make that 300 unless you work from home? and dont get me started on people who work from "home". ha.
*r*
Posted by: PitbullNYC at February 6, 2009 10:21 AM
"the same quality of life that costs $50,000 a year in Houston will run you $123,322 in the Big Apple"
Yes true, but you must live in Houston to obtain this "windfall."
Posted by: East New York at February 6, 2009 10:21 AM
The "massacre" of new condo prices (see Toll Brothers story, above) should prove a good and wholesome corrective to these brutal disparities, at least for the rich who fancy themselves middle-class because they can afford a million-dollar condo but not a two-million-dollar condo. Bring on the massacree!
Posted by: Brenda from Flatbush at February 6, 2009 10:24 AM
"it's also the easiest place to sell people faux drugs and make a ton of cash."
You better watch yourself, Rob. You might acidentally piss off the wrong people.
Posted by: East New York at February 6, 2009 10:25 AM
Right, rob. Employment opportunities, current economic environment excepted, abound here even if you have to pull pints or wait tables. We will be back to good times. It's called a cycle.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at February 6, 2009 10:25 AM
I'm actually surprised that San Francisco is so much lower than Manhattan. It's not a fair comparison if all these places are comparing large expanses of other cities against manhattan and not just the "core" or, as in the case of Philly terminology, the "Center City."
And why the hell did they pick Houston as the benchmark?????????
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at February 6, 2009 10:29 AM
Why don't you get started on people who work from home, rob. As someone who does, I'd just love to hear some more of your "ideas." As you might guess, I have a few "ideas" about people who post without thinking first.
Posted by: bxgrl at February 6, 2009 10:32 AM
No question, NYC is f'ing expensive. RE costs, utilities, taxes, etc. But I'm not even in prime Slope or Brooklyn Heights, let alone in Manhattan, and, within a few blocks' walk, I can find a decent dinner out (ok, I'm not a foodie, but), go hear some pretty decent jazz, sit in a bar with an enjoyable vibe, not to mention the day-to-day stuff like dry cleaners, hardware stores, bakeries, and the like. And I'm at work in under 30 minutes without getting into a car. Can you do that, Houston?
Posted by: slopefarm at February 6, 2009 10:32 AM
Finally, numbers that are more realistic than the assertion made in Wednesday post of Joel Kotkin's article for Forbes that "The city's middle class--those making between $35,000 and $150,000 a year"
http://www.brownstoner.com/brownstoner/archives/2009/02/forbes_discover.php
Where does Brooklyn's Number fall? I'd say anywhere between the Manhattan and Queens Numbers based upon what neighborhood you live in.
Posted by: TownhouseLady at February 6, 2009 10:33 AM
quote:
Why don't you get started on people who work from home, rob. As someone who does, I'd just love to hear some more of your "ideas." As you might guess, I have a few "ideas" about people who post without thinking first.
i refuse to take your bait. ive seen you fight and bicker with various people here and then causing dogpiles on innocent posters. im not touching that with a 10 foot pole sorry. youll just have to accept the fact that i have issues with "telecommuting princesses"
*r*
Posted by: PitbullNYC at February 6, 2009 10:35 AM
There was a similar discussion the other day on B'stoner.
Forbes Discovers New York's Middle Class
http://www.brownstoner.com/brownstoner/archives/2009/02/forbes_discover.php#comments
Forbes cited NY Middle Class income was between 35K - 150K, but according to the above cost of living in NYC for middle class, anyone making 35K is probably low low income.
There's no denying this city is expensive to live in. It'll suck every penny out of you.
Posted by: bayridgegirl at February 6, 2009 10:36 AM
Apples to apples, folks. A better comparison for most people that enjoy living in an urban neighborhood would be to compare housing prices of living in walkable/urban/interesting neighborhoods in different cities. New York has vastly more options in this category than any other city , and some/many of these options are much more affordable than the most expensive New York neighborhoods. Equivalent neighborhoods in Chicago are cheaper, but the price difference is much smaller in places like San Francisco, Boston, DC, etc. Houston has no such neighborhoods, and the few in the other listed cities have much more expensive housing stock than in then is available in other, less "urban" neighborhoods in those cities.
Posted by: betterside at February 6, 2009 10:36 AM
"More importantly, why is there no data for Lodi, NJ?"
No rants today. I will let the data speak for itself...
U.S. Jobless Rate Soars as Payrolls Plunge by 598,000 (Update2)
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=a9oqMkhAxpBM&refer=home
Feb. 6 (Bloomberg) -- The unemployment rate reached the highest level since 1992 and payrolls tumbled in January, with millions more losses likely until a fiscal stimulus and emergency lending programs begin to temper the U.S. economy’s freefall.
The jobless rate rose to 7.6 percent from 7.2 percent in December, the Labor Department said today in Washington. Payrolls fell by 598,000, the biggest monthly decline since December 1974. Losses spanned almost all industries, from construction and manufacturing to retailing, trucking, media and finance.
“We are in the middle of a very severe, a violent, collapse in activity and it could go on for months,” James Galbraith, an economics professor at the University of Texas in Austin, said in an interview with Bloomberg Television. The report will likely diminish objections “that somehow the president’s recovery plan is too large and should be trimmed back.”
Obama, who predicted a “dismal” report, is trying to push lawmakers to approve a package of about $900 billion, and in three days plans to announce a new effort to shore up credit markets. The rate of the job market’s decline means it’s unlikely the steps will halt a collapse in consumer spending until the second half of the year, economists said.
The What
Someday this war is gonna end...
Posted by: Return of The What at February 6, 2009 10:37 AM
My point exactly at 10:29, betterside.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at February 6, 2009 10:40 AM
"telecommuting princesses"
HEEEEEY!I'm a princess!
Posted by: bayridgegirl at February 6, 2009 10:41 AM
Hey Sam, Remember that a lot of us are here because our friends and families are here and have been for generations. Most of us could give a shit about the fashionista events that you now seem to be getting over, maybe now that you're a bit older. It's better that people like you feel that New York is over. Go ahead, leave please. Take all the temporarily, trendy, super-interesting stuff you brought to this city and move on to the next cool place and set up there. Just remember, New York will always be here in one form or another and I truly believe that it takes a real New Yorker to understand this concept. It's a constantly changing place and unless you are from here you probably don't get that. Things get better and things get worse, better and worse... You either have an extremely short memory or you haven't been here for long, am I right? Finally, most of us don't even notice the hassle and attitude, whataver that means, perhaps because we don't involve ourselves with whatever crowd of transplants you seem to be having a bad time with?
Posted by: EnglishKills at February 6, 2009 10:41 AM
"No rants today. I will let the data speak for itself..."
should probably do a re-write......
"Nothing on topic today, Just the usual rant. I'll just cut and paste something that everyone is already fully aware of."
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at February 6, 2009 10:44 AM
And I've seen you post some of the dumbest crap on this blog than I have ever seen anywere. I'm no princess- I don't know any either, but it's obvious there are a few queens around here. You're hardly an innocent poster- no one makes the kind of comments you do without knowing exactly what they are saying and why they are saying it. You do it all the time- you love baiting posters and your record of comments proves it.
Posted by: bxgrl at February 6, 2009 10:45 AM
As someone who visits Houston fairly often (pity me, folks!), I question these numbers. A family MUST have two cars in Houston. That alone would really drive up the cost of living. One of the things that makes NYC living is that you don't NEED a car. You might want one, but you can absolutely get by without it. (And yes, I have two children. It can be done.)
Posted by: Brooklyn Chicken at February 6, 2009 10:45 AM
Unless you've spent some time exploring Houston don't knock it. I know I'm going to get flack for this but here goes...Houston is a huge metropolis city with museaums, art galleries, restaurants gallore (real foodie ones, not just Olive Gardens!), great nightlife, theaters, opera, farmers markets, histrorical sights, sports arenas and very cool multicultural enclaves.
Please, don't let George Bush ruin Texas for you!
Posted by: TownhouseLady at February 6, 2009 10:47 AM
"Hey Sam, Remember that a lot of us are here because our friends and families are here and have been for generations. Most of us could give a shiit about the fashionista events that you now seem to be getting over, maybe now that you're a bit older. It's better that people like you feel that New York is over. Go ahead, leave please. Take all the temporarily, trendy, super-interesting stuff you brought to this city and move on to the next cool place and set up there. Just remember, New York will always be here in one form or another and I truly believe that it takes a real New Yorker to understand this concept. It's a constantly changing place and unless you are from here you probably don't get that. Things get better and things get worse, better and worse... You either have an extremely short memory or you haven't been here for long, am I right? Finally, most of us don't even notice the hassle and attitude, whataver that means, perhaps because we don't involve ourselves with whatever crowd of transplants you seem to be having a bad time with?"
Brownstoner this is the QOTD!
The What
Someday this war is gonna end..
Posted by: Return of The What at February 6, 2009 10:48 AM
new york has always been really expensive.
I knew this when I moved so im not blown away by these numbers. And when New York was cheaper so was SF and Boston.
I remember when I was growing up outside of Oakland my dad considered moving to these new condos in SF and they were around 250k and fit our family of 4 (around '87). These places were on the water and amazing and still looked amazing last time I was in SF around 2000. They have to be well over a million now.
Posted by: Santa at February 6, 2009 10:49 AM
> "A family MUST have two cars in Houston."
True. The city ain't my cup of tea (or bottle of Lone Star), but but housing is plentiful and cheap.
Posted by: SnarkSlope at February 6, 2009 10:50 AM
Slopefarm.... YES you can. Don't be ridiculous.
Posted by: tybur6 at February 6, 2009 10:51 AM
queens? that wouldn't be a gay slur would it, bxgrl?
Posted by: travy at February 6, 2009 10:52 AM
"Brownstoner this is the QOTD!"
What, up What? Not sure this will be QOTD but I do agree with you that it is a noteworthy quote. NYC will always outlast the latest trends.
Posted by: wasder at February 6, 2009 10:53 AM
I'm here for the operas and fashionista events.
And museums, and getting to sit on a subway car with people from 20 different countries, and to go see Billy Elliot tonight, and to run into Amy Sedaris on the street and have her ask you to go grab a drink with her, and to sit in Prospect Park with a bunch of friends and smoke a j, and to live comfortably without having a car, and to eat a great dinner at Al Di La and be able to WALK there, and to be able to take the train to Coney Island on a nice summer night and ride the Cyclone and have a Nathan's hotdog, and to be able to have a large selection of people whom I might be able to date and find love, and, and, and...
Speaking of...did you hear Fashion week is moving to Lincoln Center starting next year? I know you can't wait Sam!
Posted by: 11217 at February 6, 2009 10:58 AM
i grew up in houston in the 80's and hated it. i go back to visit family twice a year and see that it has changed for the better in many ways.
it always had "walking" communities near downtown even when i lived there and that has increased. neighborhoods like montrose, west university, the heights, etc are the antithesis of the suburban sprawl found in the rest of the city.
i think a place like houston is a good alternative now in this economy especially if you really knew the city. a lot of friends from my art high school have stayed (or moved back home) and have careers in the arts without struggling. and raising families too. the main reason why i couldn't live there is i hate to drive. thank god for (fairly reliable) mass transit.
Posted by: winthropst at February 6, 2009 10:59 AM
and i was really excited to take a job in manhattan for 50k :(
Posted by: bklynbpr at February 6, 2009 10:59 AM
I don't like Nathan's hot dogs.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at February 6, 2009 11:00 AM
quote:
And I've seen you post some of the dumbest crap on this blog than I have ever seen anywere. I'm no princess- I don't know any either, but it's obvious there are a few queens around here. You're hardly an innocent poster- no one makes the kind of comments you do without knowing exactly what they are saying and why they are saying it. You do it all the time- you love baiting posters and your record of comments proves it.
oh bite me. just cuz youve never met someone like me doesn't mean im 1/2 the things you claim. that said, im not talking to you anymore unless you bring this to the open thread.
*r*
Posted by: PitbullNYC at February 6, 2009 11:01 AM
Hot fruit?
Posted by: 11217 at February 6, 2009 11:02 AM
You know, it has nothing to do with how much anyone loves New York.
And people who have fixed housing costs (own or rent stabilized/controlled) have a completely different equation than those of us who rent at market rate and/or are looking to buy.
Those of us whose housing costs are at or near market rate have been acutely aware of how much more expensive things have become in the last few years. It has seemed absurd to me at times.
And no matter how much we love NYC, we have to balance that against living space, commuting times, and quality of life in the neighborhoods we can afford.
For 80% of the people, it's not about neighborhood pride or coolness factor. It's about day-to-day living and how to get the most value for their money.
Posted by: northsloperenter at February 6, 2009 11:03 AM
quote:
and to run into Amy Sedaris on the street and have her ask you to go grab a drink with her
i love her. ive run into her on the street too and she seems to eschew people. i dont for a second believe she asked you out for a drink 11217...
*r*
Posted by: PitbullNYC at February 6, 2009 11:06 AM
I'm here because I was born and raised here, my family's here. NYC is what I think when someone says "home." Doesn't mean I might not want to live somewheres else- I did for awhile- and it is certainly tough. But the fashionista events, the clubs and restaurants- doesn't mean all that much to me. The art and museums and family and friends- mean everything. What I do miss is the grit and Noo Yawker mindset- a lot has changed.
Posted by: bxgrl at February 6, 2009 11:06 AM
rob- first of all, you're overly touchy and out of line. Second- I've met far too many people like you and you're tiresome.
Posted by: bxgrl at February 6, 2009 11:08 AM
Having been born and raised in Houston, I can assure you that no reduction in cost of living could draw me back to that hell hole. Seriously, it's a polluted, steaming dump, which is why no one wants to live there.
And, as a public school teacher in Houston only 10 years ago, I earned $24,000 a year. Sure my 1 bedroom apartment was only $375 a month, but that ws a big piece of my takehome pay.
Posted by: curiositykilledthecat at February 6, 2009 11:08 AM
I think it's to our credit at New Yorkers, that many of us are able to not only survive here, but thrive, in spite of the fact that we don't make anywhere near that magic $123 thou number. What is their criteria for comfortable living? Two big cars in the garage/street, a bathroom for every bedroom, a certain amount of square footage in that bedroom, nights out at a restaurant, what?
I wouldn't use Houston as a baseline, or anywhere in Texas. From what I know of Houston, your air conditioning bill will take up at least $30k per annum. From my dealings with home furnishings businesses in Texas, everything they consider a necessity for civilized life is bigger, grander, more wasteful and more expensive than is necessary in other places. Thank goodness we would need so much for the same. Maybe it will force people to begin to live in a much smaller, more efficient and less materialistic world.
Posted by: Montrose Morris at February 6, 2009 11:09 AM
Sam says: "New York looks like it may be starting to be over."
How can New York be "over"? Have I been living in a giant fashion trend for the past 2 decades? If so, how embarassing! Apparently, my city is sooooo last year. WTF.
Posted by: Paul C at February 6, 2009 11:14 AM
" Seriously, it's a polluted, steaming dump, which is why no one wants to live there."
It may be a polluted, steaming dump, but it is a polluted, steaming dump with 2.2 million people, so evidently *somebody* wants to live there. Not me, mind you.
Posted by: SnarkSlope at February 6, 2009 11:15 AM
Indeed, the comparison of NY and SF is wrong. If this theoretical single person owns their own place instead of rents, they would need an income of at least $200,000 to buy a one-bedroom condo in SF in any neighborhood except Hunter's Point. (Everything starts at $750,000 and yes it's bigger and better but it's not cheaper than $750,000.) In fact, on the low end, for a single person, owned housing is much more affordable in NYC than in SF. Whereas rents and food are much more expensive.
If they truly want to compare Houston with New York, they'd have to compare the cost of owning a single family home of equal square feet, including the cost of insurance and garaging for a car. Then it would be obvious that you have to be a billionaire to live a "middle class" life in New York City.
I know an exception that proves the rule: Friends who bought a perfectly intact single-family Victorian on Striver's Row in Harlem with a back alley, garden, and garage some years ago for less than $500,000. It's like they're living on their own suburban paradise island or something in the middle of the city. Their lives are completely unlike anyone else's I know. (They have room for an extensive 1980s record collection!) I think they do send their kids to private school, though, so there's an expense.
Posted by: mopar at February 6, 2009 11:17 AM
But Snark, there have to be some people who make up the left tail of the bell curve in this country. Those 2.2 MM probably belong there.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at February 6, 2009 11:18 AM
quote:
I know an exception that proves the rule: Friends who bought a perfectly intact single-family Victorian on Striver's Row in Harlem with a back alley, garden, and garage some years ago for less than $500,000. It's like they're living on their own suburban paradise island or something in the middle of the city. Their lives are completely unlike anyone else's I know. (They have room for an extensive 1980s record collection!) I think they do send their kids to private school, though, so there's an expense.
BARF. i hate those kinds of people.
*r*
Posted by: PitbullNYC at February 6, 2009 11:20 AM
"I'm here because I was born and raised here, my family's here. NYC is what I think when someone says "home."
There you go. Everyone (who's lucky) identifies with their home. Our home happens to be one of the world's great cities.
Posted by: East New York at February 6, 2009 11:21 AM
rob...that's what the American Dream is all about.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at February 6, 2009 11:22 AM
"So what's to do: Among other recommendations, the report suggests diversifying the economy, focus on basic infrastructure and quality of life issues rather than building flashy new projects and increase housing stock that is affordable to the middle class."
I heartily agree.
Posted by: Montrose Morris at February 6, 2009 11:22 AM
northsloperenter is right, I think. For most of us it's living day to day- and that's what people do everywhere. Try to get the most bang for their buck. But in NYC you get this enormous smorgasbord, and access is limited only by your means. For me, I think as we saw a huge boom in people with so much disposible income over the last 7-8 years, we also saw a boom in trendy, uber-expensive places and things that most likely will not prove sustainable as the economy tanks. It got very rarefied here- now its correcting, but at a huge cost to everyone.
DIBS- that's my personal, unknowledable, perspective, but I would like to hear yours- you know much more about this stuff than I do.
Posted by: bxgrl at February 6, 2009 11:24 AM
CWB, I'm with you. I have no idea who she is either. I've become my unhip parents.
Posted by: Montrose Morris at February 6, 2009 11:25 AM
I ... I don't know who Amy Sedaris is.
Me neither. I wouldn't know her from a crack in the wall.
Posted by: East New York at February 6, 2009 11:29 AM
great post northsloper. i love nyc and can't imagine living anywhere else, but there is a limit for everyone for how long a commute or dangerous a neighborhood they will endure and i think a lot of people neared that point at the height of the bubble.
for me, 45 minutes on the subway from a shit neighborhood is my limit and when that becomes my only option for living here, i'm out...
Posted by: travy at February 6, 2009 11:30 AM
I have to run now for a lunch meeting, bxgrl. I think a perfect example of what you are speaking about is the huge number of over-the-top, Jean Georges type restaurants. Many of these will fold. They will not be missed. Who wants to dine in a trendy place where the noise level is ridiculous because everyone thinks he's more important than anyone else.
If you ask me, the best restaurant in NYC for ambiance, service and food is La Grenouille. It's not cheap but it will stand the test of time, as will many other places, but many will not. I'm going there next week for Valentine's Day. It'll be a truly fine dining experience and it will be quiet (no cell phones allowed).
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at February 6, 2009 11:30 AM
Amy Sedaris is the less funny sister of David Sedaris, and is best known for her portrayal of Jerri Blank in "Strangers with Candy."
Posted by: SnarkSlope at February 6, 2009 11:31 AM
dave- so which of the BF's are you taking? Or are you taking all of them? Or are you taking all of Us? (yay!)
Posted by: bxgrl at February 6, 2009 11:32 AM
Haha, MM beat me to it, re David. :)
I did wikipedia her, which just confirmed that I don't know her, nor do I know her brother.
As far as the cost of living thing goes: color me unsurprised. I lived in a gigantic 1BR in Philly for roughly half of what I make here, and was able to save almost as much money even while having a car payment, insurance, and a bunch of other stuff I don't have here.
That said, I still love Brooklyn and I still want to own here. I'd just like to make bucketloads of money, too!
Posted by: cwbuecheler at February 6, 2009 11:39 AM
"And who is David Sedaris?"
http://www.newyorker.com/humor/2008/10/27/081027sh_shouts_sedaris
Regarding undecided voters he writes:
"To put them in perspective, I think of being on an airplane. The flight attendant comes down the aisle with her food cart and, eventually, parks it beside my seat. “Can I interest you in the chicken?” she asks. “Or would you prefer the platter of shit with bits of broken glass in it?”
To be undecided in this election is to pause for a moment and then ask how the chicken is cooked."
Posted by: northsloperenter at February 6, 2009 11:40 AM
amy sedaris' character on strangers with candy was GREAT. at a person, i think she's a total tool. and her brother isn't funny at all. pretentious peoples i've noticed like to like him for some reason.
now Mo'Nique on the other hand. that's funny!
*r*
Posted by: PitbullNYC at February 6, 2009 11:43 AM
David Sedaris = humorist.
funny.
Posted by: bayridgegirl at February 6, 2009 11:44 AM
Turns out I've actually read some of Sedarist's stuff in the New Yorker. Just didn't know the name.
Live and learn.
Posted by: cwbuecheler at February 6, 2009 11:48 AM
BRG, you must be as pretentious as I am.
Posted by: SnarkSlope at February 6, 2009 11:49 AM
And by Sedarist I mean: Sedaris
Posted by: cwbuecheler at February 6, 2009 11:50 AM
OK, I had read that quote during election time, and thought it was brilliant. Didn't know who said it. Will have to check him out. Thank you, oh recepticals of popular culture wisdom.
Posted by: Montrose Morris at February 6, 2009 11:51 AM
'BRG, you must be as pretentious as I am.'
I think you are more so!
Posted by: bayridgegirl at February 6, 2009 11:54 AM
David Sedaris on Letterman - 5 min
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBdymtyXt8Y
Posted by: bayridgegirl at February 6, 2009 11:55 AM
I don't find David sedaris so funny. And I've never heard of Amy. Put me in team bear ignormauses.
Posted by: dittoburg at February 6, 2009 11:55 AM
Someone may have already said this, but...
You may be "middle class" on $50k in Houston, but are the job opportunities there? Recession aside, if you were to up and move to Houston are there as many companies and/or outlets for your profession/expertise?
I'm a City teacher and I contemplated moving once. The cost of living here was high, but as a teacher I was also making 2 to 3 times what other teachers were making in Seattle, or Chicago, or Philly. So the cost of living may have been half, but my salary would have been 1/3.
And there are the intangibles. Houston would require a car a person (most likely). You can live in NYC a never own a car. If you want to be your own boss/freelance are the opportunities available in a place like Houston? If you want to change careers does a place like Houston offer the options of further education and professional options?
I think the trade off for higher cost of living is the opportunity NYC offers. People have always come and gone in waves. The city becomes enticing and the droves move in. The city falters and people move. Soon enough the cycle will come around and the city will be thriving again and people will be clamoring to live here.
.02
Posted by: christopher at February 6, 2009 11:57 AM
Montrose,
You must, must, must listen to Santaland Diaries:
- http://www.npr.org/programs/specials/lists/sedaris/
"Santaland diaries launched the career of writer and commentator David Sedaris. He recounts his days as a Christmas elf at Macy's department store in New York City."
Posted by: SnarkSlope at February 6, 2009 12:02 PM
That New Yorker quote is when Sedaris jumped the shark for me.
New York just has this vibe where it's like, "Let's randomly pick a place and just decide it's the best place of all, no matter what." I contemplate moving every so often and I am nowhere near the middle class designation, but there's just too much life going on here. I can understand Updike's point when he moved away because of all the distractions, but my life really took off in incredible ways ever since I've been here and I just can't picture that happening in Houston.
Posted by: infinitejester at February 6, 2009 12:03 PM
> "I think you are more so!"
- http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/strumpet.htm
Posted by: SnarkSlope at February 6, 2009 12:03 PM
I will read watch listen to anything that either David or Amy put out. I think they are both beyond hysterical.
One of my favorite David Sedaris readings is 6-8 Black Men.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCUHTDrca4s
Posted by: TownhouseLady at February 6, 2009 12:16 PM
Snark, I LOVE Flame Warriors! What a brilliant site. Everyone here is there, most people are a combination of at least two. I'll be entertained for days. Will listen to Santaland Diaries later today. Thanks!
Posted by: Montrose Morris at February 6, 2009 12:16 PM
I didn't realize talking about my chance meeting with Amy Sedaris would cause so many comments.
I think she's hilarious. Off camera and on. Her portayal of Jerri Blank in "Strangers with Candy" is comedy genius, in my opinion. It's not for everyone though...it's pretty dirty humor. It also stars Stephen Colbert. Check it out if you like really dirty, dry humor.
David Sedaris...eh...he's ok. Not my absolute favorite.
I certainly didn't mean to imply that Amy Sedaris is the be all, end all of popular culture. I've had so many crazy experiences of running into celebs in the city, and I knew if I said some of the other more well known ones I'd be called out even more than I usually am for being too pretentious.
Posted by: 11217 at February 6, 2009 12:23 PM
11217, I'd stop while you're ahead!
Posted by: bayridgegirl at February 6, 2009 12:25 PM
What 11217 said about the subways.
Anyone who doesn't know David Sedaris is required by me to go out and get his first book and read his first and most famous essay, about working as a elf at Macy's.
Also, Rob, they're just cranky. That's why they're funny. Amy Sedaris is hardly hifaultin'. She was a waitress at Mary's Fish Camp. And Montrose, Amy also wrote a kind of sick tongue-in-cheek coffee table book about "entertaining," with recommendations for such as how to re-use nylon stockings.
(Speaking of which, have you seen pages 68-69 of the Feb. World of Interiors? Cute mix of curry damask and striped blue bed ticking on English antiques.)
All this exercise proves is that America is full of sprawl.
Posted by: mopar at February 6, 2009 12:27 PM
Snark, for you to post that link and insinuate that I am a ‘strumpet’, you must need to make up for the size of your ‘ego’!
;-)
Posted by: bayridgegirl at February 6, 2009 12:27 PM
Celebrities are part of the problem, not the solution, 11217.
Posted by: mopar at February 6, 2009 12:32 PM
Michael Ian Black has asked for us to join him in trying to defeat David Sedaris:
http://michaelianblack.typepad.com/blog/2008/06/help-me-defeat.html
Posted by: TownhouseLady at February 6, 2009 12:32 PM
The celebrities should try moving to Houston.
Posted by: mopar at February 6, 2009 12:32 PM
Um, I did too BRG, just in the Open Forum.
Posted by: TownhouseLady at February 6, 2009 12:33 PM
Their comment about parking at One Brooklyn Bridge Park is misleading. They say $280,000 for a parking space is "absurd" when you can rent in a garage for $2,000-$5,000 a year in a place like Park Slope. Sure, $280K is high, but let's have an apples-to-apples comparison and see how much it would cost to actually buy that Park Slope parking spot. I'd guess it's in the mid $100s, which is obviously lower than $280K but not by an order of magnitude as they try to suggest.
Posted by: NorthHeights at February 6, 2009 12:33 PM
Fair enough, mopar.
I'm not a celebrity hanger on, but when you run into one in the line at the grocery store, it can be kinda fun.
Not life changing, but fun. That's all.
Posted by: 11217 at February 6, 2009 12:34 PM
The "car condo" on Union St in Park Slope sells their spaces for $75k and up.
Incidentally, it's one of the most hideous building exteriors in New York City. Not that it matters what a parking garage looks like ... but still.
Posted by: cwbuecheler at February 6, 2009 12:36 PM
NorthHeights:
There is (or was) a parking space for sale recently at the garage on Union Street between 6th and 7th Avenues for $75,000.
Posted by: 11217 at February 6, 2009 12:36 PM
Mopar, I have that issue. Will peel myself from the computer and check again when I have lunch. I vaguely remember it.
Posted by: Montrose Morris at February 6, 2009 12:36 PM
Queens? Princesses? David Sedaris?
This is my conversation!
Mother Montrose, you disappoint me.
Seriously, why do you need $83K in Queens to be middle class?! Based on that "fact" alone, I dismiss this entire article.
The Queen has spoken.
Carry on.
Posted by: Miss Chiff at February 6, 2009 12:39 PM
I have a friend (and former boss) who lives on Central Park West in the same building as Bono, Dustin Hoffman, and Ashton/Demi.
I've only ever seen the latter. We went over for beers, and the couple came rushing through a swarm of paparazzi (who made us wait outside), to get into a towncar. Demi Moore is really short.
That is all.
Posted by: cwbuecheler at February 6, 2009 12:41 PM
A few years ago the condos on the corner of Clinton and State Sts. were selling spaces for $40k (before they finished construction). We thought they were nuts.
Only a few blocks from One BBP. Could've flipped that spot for triple by now ;)
Posted by: christopher at February 6, 2009 12:42 PM
11217…..when you've hung out with them for hours, when you've worked with them for months, years...then tell us about it. Otherwise, put your Doritos on the conveyer belt, pay for your purchase and walk back to Park Slope.
Don’t be a name dropper, it’s not becoming.
Posted by: bayridgegirl at February 6, 2009 12:42 PM
I can be the only one that has completely tired of this Miss Chiff ridiculousness?
You're not cute, engaging, or nearly as amusing as you think you are.
Buh Bye.
Posted by: TownhouseLady at February 6, 2009 12:45 PM
THL = wake up on the wrong side of the bed this morning?
Posted by: Miss Chiff at February 6, 2009 12:48 PM
Nope, I'm fine, I just never really thought the whole "guess who Miss Chiff is" thing was worth the effort.
I'm fairly certain I really like you sans the facade.
Posted by: TownhouseLady at February 6, 2009 12:51 PM
At this point, it seems that no matter what I say there will be a backlash. And that's totally cool. I don't really give a rats ass.
11217 has become my "character" I guess. He is my instrument for provoking thought or rage (take your pick) and unfortunately I've kinda lost a handle on him.
No pun intended.
Posted by: 11217 at February 6, 2009 12:53 PM
For general quality of life, I don't doubt for a minute that you can live a very rewarding life at much lower cost in many cities around the country. The idea that culture or diversity is exclusive to NYC is simply misinformed chauvinism. There is good food, interesting art (performing and graphic), and lovely urban design in almost any decent-sized city. And like it or not, many of us (particularly people who spend a lot of time on websites like, say, Brownstoner) do a fair amount of our socializing, entertainment consumption, etc., on line. And with a high-speed modem, where you are makes no difference.
If you're like me, and attend a dozen or more operas a season, NYC has an appeal unlike any other American city. But even for those of us with this relatively rare interest, you could certainly subsist on the offerings of Lyric Opera of Chicago, Houston Grand Opera, or SF Opera. I like it here, I have no intention of leaving any time soon, but I recognize that this is more for personal reasons of where my job, family, and friends are, not because there's something intrinsically better about New York.
Posted by: Sparafucile at February 6, 2009 12:57 PM
Point taken.
Admittedly, I was being silly in my post above, though I stand by my comemnt about Queens. That number doesn't seem reasonable.
I thought the whole guess who I am was over some time ago. I am certain we would get along really well in person.
So I can't have fun here as well as comment on the articles, THL?
Posted by: Miss Chiff at February 6, 2009 12:58 PM
It's hard for me to play a character on blogs when I retardedly insist on using my initials and last name as my login for most of them. :P
It makes figuring out who I am kind of easy.
Posted by: cwbuecheler at February 6, 2009 1:07 PM
I have inside information on a certain decorator known for fabulous hats: She is really nice and she likes a little smoke now and then. Quote when interrupted by child when rolling were "Not now, mommy is doing her business."
Posted by: mopar at February 6, 2009 1:07 PM
lol 11217 lives in nyc cuz he likes celebrities. actually tho, honestly, i think that is much more valid and i give mad respect to that than people who claim to live in nyc for the "culture" such as operas and museums. :-/ you can see all that crap in a book or online and can listen to operas in your headphones, so i really don't see the point. working in soho i run into a few celebrities sometimes but im not good at spotting them out. i have that rare brain condition where you have trouble recognizing peoples face. (look it up it's a for real condition!)
best celebrity moment were a gazillion people and paparazzis outside of baltazaars cuz a "star" was inside and everyone was waiting for them to come out. the paparazzis would not tell anyone who it was and people were waiting to see who. these two little kids walk right in and come out and go it's jennifer aniston and the crowd (minus the paparazzis) was all like booooo and just walked away lol.
worst celebrity spotting was maggie gyllenhaal in park slope jogging. she jogs passed me and im like omg i know her who is she? then it clicked and i turned around and all i saw were cottage cheese thighs :(
*rob*
Posted by: PitbullNYC at February 6, 2009 1:09 PM
I *thought* you would have WOI, MM. :)
Posted by: mopar at February 6, 2009 1:10 PM
I have inside information on a certain decorator known for fabulous hats: She is really nice and she likes a little smoke now and then. Quote when interrupted by child when rolling were "Not now, mommy is doing her business."
Posted by: mopar at February 6, 2009 1:12 PM
Miss Chiff, we're making the same point. Tons of inexpensive housing in NYC.
Posted by: mopar at February 6, 2009 1:13 PM
"I can['t] be the only one that has completely tired of this Miss Chiff ridiculousness?
You're not cute, engaging, or nearly as amusing as you think you are.
Buh Bye."
No, you're not THL the only one. I've been done with it for awhile now.
Posted by: cobblehiller at February 6, 2009 1:23 PM
"you can see all that crap in a book or online and can listen to operas in your headphones, so i really don't see the point."
I'm pretty sure you can also see celebrities online, or in People Magazine, but I would concede that there might be a difference when experiencing it in person, rather than on a video screen or printed page.
Posted by: Sparafucile at February 6, 2009 1:29 PM
Me too, THL.
Posted by: mopar at February 6, 2009 1:31 PM
Totally agree Sparafucile.
Granted I work in the business, but I go to at least 10 operas a year also, and to Carnegie Hall, Lincoln Center, BAM, and others another 40-50 times a year, minimum.
Did you happen to see Orfeo y Euridice at the MET?
Posted by: 11217 at February 6, 2009 1:31 PM
mopar: Even within a boro, there are huge differences with housing costs. Obviously, you have to take some average to get to a number. I am wondering if this takes into account the average cost of Manhattan real estate? If it does, then the numbers are meaningless as a large number of manhattan dwellings were never built for the middle class and/or haven't had middle class residents living in them in decades. Also, how can Nassau be cheaper than Queens? The real estate taxes and commuting costs alone should make Nassau more expensive.
Posted by: Miss Chiff at February 6, 2009 1:33 PM
So, 11217, are you telling us that your real self likes to sneak out in the middle of the night in skinny jeans to tie one on in a Williamsburg speakeasy and bid on condos in the Edge?
Posted by: mopar at February 6, 2009 1:34 PM
operas. jeez. how old are some of you? 150!? just kidding. (sorta)
*r*
Posted by: PitbullNYC at February 6, 2009 1:35 PM
Mopar,
While I've been known to do that on occasion (the tie one on in Williamsburg part) my posts are factual. It's not a fictional character so much as one that seems to have skewed far outside of my actual persona.
And btw, I ALWAYS wear skinny jeans.
p.s. I would NEVER go look at the Edge. My love of Brownstones is 100% solid.
Posted by: 11217 at February 6, 2009 1:40 PM
seems pretty silly to come up with figures by borough.
Why not then take san francisco and then tell us how much to be middle calls in Pacific Hts as compared to a middle class neighborhood.
Compare stats from 1 city to the next - not an affluent part of one to entire enchilada for another.
Posted by: Petebklyn at February 6, 2009 1:43 PM
Rob, good anecdote.
I sat in the same row as Michael Moore at a movie once.
Posted by: infinitejester at February 6, 2009 1:45 PM
'Did you happen to see Orfeo y Euridice at the MET?'
I'll buy the bootleg copy of it on the street for $5.
Posted by: bayridgegirl at February 6, 2009 1:55 PM
I didn't see this year's Orfeo & Euridice, but I listened on the radio. I saw it done at BAM about 20 or so years ago. I'm not a huge fan of Mark Morris's opera direction.
So far the best thing I've seen this season was concert version of Elektra at NY Phil.
Posted by: Sparafucile at February 6, 2009 2:00 PM
I was at Elektra as well.
The production of Orfeo was a lot better last season than this year's production.
I didn't mind the Mark Morris Dance Company but wasn't a huge fan of the Isak Mizrahi costumes at all.
Posted by: 11217 at February 6, 2009 2:13 PM
Let's face it: comparing Brownstone Brooklyn to Houston is inane. Houston is the Enron of urban centers... rather than comparing apples-to-oranges, this is a case of apples-to-road kill armadillos.
As a Texas-ex I can assure you that Houston is indeed a soulless hellscape which would be utterly uninhabitable if not for the interstate highway system & the injection of massive amounts of air conditioning - two things destined to go the way of the dodo bird in the near-future.
Houston may have a few pedestrian enclaves, but it's mainly the kind of place where entire neighborhoods are built without sidewalks. And as for public transportation, it's strictly for the hired help. Just like Atlanta, Houston has a totally non-sustainable city plan: a weak center core enveloped by a web of exurban sprawl. This design is flawed & cannot be fixed.
And let's not forget that the current plunge in oil prices has dealt a major blow to Houston's biggest industry - one reason that it's a famous boom-and-bust city.
But putting all this aside, why am I wasting time commenting on this? You couldn't pay me to live in Houston or most other cities, which is EXACTLY why I live in NYC!
Posted by: parkedslope at February 6, 2009 2:16 PM
Just was on Yahoo.com and this was the featured story with headline "An overpriced middle class" and subtitle "It takes a shocking salary to achieve "middle-class" status in New York City"
The link goes to a daily news article with a great URL:
http://www.nydailynews.com/money/2009/02/05/2009-02-05_nyc_so_costly_you_need_to_earn_six_figur.html
Posted by: northsloperenter at February 6, 2009 2:21 PM
My three most direct celeb sightings in NYC.
1. Sam Waterston, in costume for L&O (suit, trenchcoat), walking down Chambers St. near the Muni building a few years back. I kept thinking "I was on a case with that lawyer, who is he? What case was it? What firm is he with?" He was halfway down the block before I realized who he was.
2. Sarah Jessica Parker, pre-SITC, in a 6th Street curry house, two table over.
3. Browsed in a hole in the wall East Village record shop in 1985 with Michael Jackson (during tail end of Thriller hype) and a bunch of bodyguards. His chalkstripe suit was 3 sizes too big, his skin gray, and he was looking for some rare Ray Charles imports.
Back when we rented further north in the Slope, my wife used to see John Turturro yelling into his cell phone all the time. My parents once saw Springsteen and Patti toasting their anniversary in a theater district Italian restaurant. Can't believe they (my parents) didn't send over a bottle of wine. Oh, and I vaguely suspect I was in a pick-up basketball game with Giancarlo Esposito about 20 years ago at the Prospect Park Y, but I am not at all sure.
I think that's it. I am sure I've seen tons of celebrities that I didn't recognize.
Posted by: slopefarm at February 6, 2009 2:22 PM
It's a good thing New york hasn't suffered any blows to any major industries lately, whew!
Posted by: SnarkSlope at February 6, 2009 2:24 PM
A good name dropper should always spell their celebrity 'friend's names correctly especially 'granted they work in the business'
'Isak'
Posted by: bayridgegirl at February 6, 2009 2:25 PM
- http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/grammarian.htm
Posted by: SnarkSlope at February 6, 2009 2:33 PM
BRG, is there a reason you are such a pill?
Go pick on slopefarm or others who actually DID name drop.
There's a word for girls like you, but my mother taught me not to use that word.
C U Next Tuesday!
Posted by: 11217 at February 6, 2009 2:35 PM
And only a girl in Bay Ridge would consider ISAAC Mizrahi a name to be dropped in the first place.
Posted by: 11217 at February 6, 2009 2:37 PM
WAIT WAIT WAIT MY BIGGEST CELEBRITY ENCOUNTER EVER! okay so i work at the front desk at work and who gets off the elevator?! AL GORE! and like three people surrounding him. (bodyguards?) this was after he lost the election that time and i think maybe around the time of his documentary? he goes "im here for a meeting." im like um, huh? who are you here to meet with? he was like 'do you know who i am?' i totally laughed and my whole office was like wtf is going up there and laughing too. i was like sorry you have the wrong office. he got off on the wrong floor. he was supposed to go to the onion floor hahahahah. doesnt sound as funny now and i guess he's not a celebrity.
*r*
Posted by: PitbullNYC at February 6, 2009 2:40 PM
I bumped into Giuliani and his girlfriend in the animal hospital. It wasn't the celebrity, it was the location.
Since then I've bumped into Al Sharpie, Julia Roberts, Jerry Orbach (RIP), and Parker Posey. None of them recognised me however.
Posted by: dittoburg at February 6, 2009 2:46 PM
I'm baaaaaaack.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at February 6, 2009 2:46 PM
"hahahahah. doesnt sound as funny now and i guess he's not a celebrity."
Actually, that does sound funny! I've worked with a few celebrities, and it seems the more important they are, the more some rely other people to tell them where they're going and what they're doing. I'll bet Al reamed someone in the entourage when the elevator doors closed!
Posted by: East New York at February 6, 2009 2:46 PM
I once saw Mason Reese on the UWS!!
Posted by: Biff Champion at February 6, 2009 2:51 PM
I've never seen Canada's one celebrity, Celine Dion, and never want to.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at February 6, 2009 2:53 PM
'Go pick on slopefarm or others who actually DID name drop.'
But their posts aren’t full of or allude to: ‘I do think I'm extraordinary’
'There's a word for girls like you, but my mother taught me not to use that word.'
Your mother should have taught you not to be a pompous, haughty, self affected individual always flaunting personality qualities that you insist you have, but no one else sees.
‘C U Next Tuesday!’
And which celebrity are you going to be with?
Posted by: bayridgegirl at February 6, 2009 2:59 PM
And your mother should have taught you not to be a raving bitch, but that's neither here nor there.
Posted by: 11217 at February 6, 2009 3:02 PM
I was dining with a guy whom I was sleeping around with at a Thai restaurant that used to be on East 6oth St and we were seated next to martina Navratilova and Brooke Shields back in the 1996-7 timeframe. Francisco and I were talking about how we weren't really right for each other and Martina spoke up and said that she thought our conversation was more interesting than their own. We wound up pulling the tables together and having dinner together.
Thats my best celeb story. I used to see Rueh Mclanahan & Brian Denehey a lot in my old UES neighborhood...and the Brit who was the second captain kirk on star trek.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at February 6, 2009 3:03 PM
Girls, girls, girls, please.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at February 6, 2009 3:05 PM
DIBS, you need to get out more. Just a few other than Celine...
The Group of Seven
Emily Carr
Karen Kain
Margaret Atwood
Arthur Hailey
Margaret Laurence
Stephen Leacock
Hugh MacLennan
Farley Mowat
Robert Munsch
Michael Ondaatje
Jonas Salk
Samuel Bronfman
Jack Kent Cooke
Samuel Cunard
Jack Warner
Norman Bethune
Terry Fox
Rick Hansen
Alexander Graham Bell
Joseph-Armand Bombardier
Pamela Anderson
Dan Aykroyd
Genevieive Bujold
James Cameron
Neve Campbell
John Candy
Jim Carrey
David Cronenberg
Elisha Cuthbert
James Doohan
Marie Dressler
Atom Egoyan
Joe Flaherty
Michael J. Fox
Tom Green
Lorne Greene
Monty Hall
Natasha Henstridge
Peter Jennings
Norman Jewison
Margot Kidder
Eugene Levy
Norm MacDonald
Louis B. Mayer
Eric McCormack
Lorne Michaels
Rick Moranis
Mike Myers
Leslie Nielsen
Anna Paquin
Mary Pickford
Christopher Plummer
Keanu Reeves
Caroline Rhea
William Shatner
Norma Shearer
Martin Short
Donald Sutherland
Kiefer Sutherland
Meg Tilly
Alex Trebek
Nia Vardalos
Jack Warner
Posted by: Biff Champion at February 6, 2009 3:08 PM
‘11217. today we’re going to learn the word Bitch. Listen to Mommy, honey. Bitch is a term for a female canine, but you can also say it to a woman that you think is being unpleasant and malicious. You are great my son, the greatest. Now go tell the world.'
Posted by: bayridgegirl at February 6, 2009 3:09 PM
Alexander Graham Bell was a Scot was he not
Posted by: dittoburg at February 6, 2009 3:12 PM
Hmm, maybe the fact I had to list Jack Warner twice indicates there aren't so many after all. I wonder how many of those celebs live in Houston and how many live in Manhattan (just trying to stay on topic)...
Posted by: Biff Champion at February 6, 2009 3:12 PM
The only one I saw who I would be interested in would be Keanu. However, my heroine would be Norma Shearer as Mary Haines in "The Women" 1938 version.
Jonas Salk is not a celebrity.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at February 6, 2009 3:12 PM
Years ago I was in a (now defunct) video store in Park Slope.
I picked up "Parting Glances" and was reading the back cover. Then I looked up, and over on the other side of the store I spotted Steve Buscemi (who plays Nick in PG).
I looked back at the cover, then back at him. I gave him that "Are you who I think you are?" look, and he gave me that "Yes I am" look, and that was that.
Great flick by the way.
Posted by: SnarkSlope at February 6, 2009 3:13 PM
"Jonas Salk is not a celebrity."
I could argue that someone who found the cure for polio was indeed a celeb. Albert Einstein was a huge celebrity in his day because of his mind. Today we worship Britney Spears and Ashley Simpson...sad.
Posted by: Biff Champion at February 6, 2009 3:14 PM
And, the closing line out of Joan Crawford as Crystal Allen in "The Women," 1938 version was:
"There's a word for you women but it's not used in polite society, except at the kennels."
See how this discussion becomes intertwined through a number of topics??
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at February 6, 2009 3:15 PM
ENY I dunno, I worked in a recording studio when I was in my early 20's and generally speaking the younger *artists* were the ones with the chip on their shoulder. They had something to prove and were really bad mannered, rude, demanding and needed a lot of babysitting/coddling. The more established the artists mostly had little to no entourages and behaved just like us regular folks. They required much less tending to.
Posted by: TownhouseLady at February 6, 2009 3:17 PM
Ditto, you are correct. He was born in Scotland, but spend the majority of his years in Canada.
I forgot the inventor of basketball, James Naismith, although he's not a celeb, even by my standards...
Posted by: Biff Champion at February 6, 2009 3:17 PM
> "I could argue that someone who found the cure for polio was indeed a celeb."
By today's standards, only if he flashed his hoohoo while getting out of a cab. Sad indeed.
Posted by: SnarkSlope at February 6, 2009 3:18 PM
When he met Albert Einstein, Jack Warner told him, "I have my own theory of relativity - never hire your relatives."
Posted by: East New York at February 6, 2009 3:18 PM
I am my own celebrity. My work once appeared on the front page of the NYT (no kidding!). I've had my 15 minutes of fame.
Posted by: benson at February 6, 2009 3:19 PM
'By today's standards, only if he flashed his hoohoo while getting out of a cab. Sad indeed.'
Open Thread
Seriously, move this there...it's so off-topic at this point.
Posted by: bayridgegirl at February 6, 2009 3:21 PM
"By today's standards, only if he flashed his hoohoo while getting out of a cab."
Or gained 20 pounds and started wearing "mom" jeans!
ENY, that's a good one!
Posted by: Biff Champion at February 6, 2009 3:22 PM
Damn, Biff. Your list omits the first three Canadian celebrities that come to mind:
Neil Young
Ben Heppner
Glenn Gould
Posted by: Sparafucile at February 6, 2009 3:22 PM
benson, you have just set yourself up for an easy punchline from bxgrl or BRG!
Posted by: Biff Champion at February 6, 2009 3:23 PM
I worked with Kim Cattrall once, THL, and I must say, she fits in with what you're describing. Very nice to everyone and no attitude.
Posted by: East New York at February 6, 2009 3:23 PM
> "it's so off-topic at this point."
Ah yes, so much less on topic than a certain bickerfest going on here.
Posted by: SnarkSlope at February 6, 2009 3:24 PM
Sparafucile, thanks. I cut and pasted the names from some website that didn't include them, but I should have at least thought of Neil and Glenn on my own. I also could have mentioned Rush. And how could I forget the Barenaked Ladies??
Posted by: Biff Champion at February 6, 2009 3:24 PM
The same Francisco whom I mentioned above at 3:03 was the personal assistant to Bianca Jagger for about two years. She was an absolute bitch.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at February 6, 2009 3:27 PM
And...
Christopher Plummer
Art Linkletter
Brendan Fraser
Caroline Rhea
Carrie Anne Moss
Catherine O`Hara
Corey Haim
Dave Thomas
Eugene Levy
Evangeline Lilly
Glenn Ford
Hayden Christiansen
Howie Mandel
Kim Cattrall
Neve Campbell
Paul Shaffer
Phil Hartman
Raymond Burr
Raymond Massey
Ryan Gosling
Thommy Chong
Posted by: Biff Champion at February 6, 2009 3:29 PM
"I am my own celebrity. My work once appeared on the front page of the NYT (no kidding!). I've had my 15 minutes of fame."
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/19/nyregion/19fedd.html
Aaaah, but your work will live in infamy!
Posted by: bayridgegirl at February 6, 2009 3:30 PM
STOP WITH THE CUT AND PASTE OF THE CANADIAN SHIT!!!!
Posted by: bayridgegirl at February 6, 2009 3:31 PM
Alanis Morissette
Avril Lavigne
Blue Rodeo
Bryan Adams
Burton Cummings
Corey Hart
Cowboy Junkies
Crash Test Dummies
David Wilcox
Diana Krall
Gordon Lightfoot
Holly Cole
Jeff Healey
Michael Buble
Nelly Furtado
Nickleback
Our Lady Peace
Shania Twain
The Guess Who
The Tragically Hip
OK, I'M DONE, I SWEAR! Sorry for the interruption...
Posted by: Biff Champion at February 6, 2009 3:32 PM
Alanis Morissette
Avril Lavigne
Blue Rodeo
Bryan Adams
Burton Cummings
Corey Hart
Cowboy Junkies
Crash Test Dummies
David Wilcox
Diana Krall
Gordon Lightfoot
Holly Cole
Jeff Healey
Michael Buble
Nelly Furtado
Nickleback
Our Lady Peace
Shania Twain
The Guess Who
The Tragically Hip
OK, I'M DONE, I SWEAR! Sorry for the interruption...
Posted by: Biff Champion at February 6, 2009 3:32 PM
BRG, don't get your panties in a twist!
Posted by: Biff Champion at February 6, 2009 3:33 PM
'STOP WITH THE CUT AND PASTE OF THE CANADIAN SHIT!!!!'
Re-write;
STOP THE CANADIAN SHIT FROM CUTTING AND PASTING!!!
Posted by: bayridgegirl at February 6, 2009 3:34 PM
(and for the double post)
Posted by: Biff Champion at February 6, 2009 3:34 PM
I got into a verbal altercation with Kirsten Dunst at last seasons Marc Jacobs after fashion show party ( she spilled wine on me) What a c*nt!
Posted by: dirty_hipster at February 6, 2009 3:36 PM
'BRG, don't get your panties in a twist!'
um, let me see now, um....hhhmmmm.
Posted by: bayridgegirl at February 6, 2009 3:37 PM
My best celeb "happenstance" was I went into a dive bar (since remodeled) right near MSG looked down the line and one barstool was open but it was pulled right up close to some guy like he was saving it. I walked over and said is anyone sitting there? He turned around and said no go ahead and pulled it out for me. That's when I had a mini stroke at age 19 (they didn't card back in the day) it was Matt Dillon. I worshiped at the alter of M.D. ever since the Outsiders. I was shaking so hard I almost fell pulling butt onto the stool. He was there with his bother Kevin and two other friends. They'd just come from a Knicks game at the Garden. Long story short he was super cool, ended up chatting with him a good portion of the night he bought the beers I provided all the smokes (this was back in the day when you could smoke in bars and I was still a smoker) while his bother and friends hit on the FIT girls.
Bummer was, I was there with my boyfriend who's name I can't even remember now.
Posted by: TownhouseLady at February 6, 2009 3:38 PM
I've had no celebrity sightings ;-)
Posted by: bayridgegirl at February 6, 2009 3:41 PM
"I am my own celebrity. My work once appeared on the front page of the NYT (no kidding!). I've had my 15 minutes of fame."
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/19/nyregion/19fedd.html
Aaaah, but your work will live in infamy!"
BRG;
Not quite - this is from the NY metro section :-b
If you want to know: yours truly was involved in the deployment of the first submarine cable in the world that utilized fiber optics. It was a cable link between two of the Canary Islands. For reasons that no one anticipated at the time, these fiber optic cables were destroyed by sharks soon after their installation. Yours truly organized a 6 week expedition of marine biologist from places like Harvard, Scripps and the American Museum of Natural History to understand what was happening. It was a boon to the field of marine biology, and I received a special letter of commendation from the American Museum of Natural History.
My 15 minutes....
Posted by: benson at February 6, 2009 3:43 PM
Benson Your 15 minutes....ZZZZZZZZZZZZ
No, seriously that's great. Except I didn't understand a word you said regarding to what you did :)
I've had several 15 minutes, actually sitll having them, but if I tell people about them then I'd have to change my log-in name to 11217 :-)
Posted by: bayridgegirl at February 6, 2009 3:48 PM
> "these fiber optic cables were destroyed by sharks soon after their installation."
Yes, by my sharks with head-mounted "lasers."
[cue evil laugh]
Posted by: SnarkSlope at February 6, 2009 3:49 PM
"Benson Your 15 minutes....ZZZZZZZZZZZZ"
Hey, it might not be exciting, but when you're an engineer working on fiber optics, it was something!! You don't get alot of invitations to cocktail parties when you tell folks you're going to talk about chromatic dispersion, atenuation, and other such "chick-magnet" topics.
In other words, it was my 15 minutes, dammit!!! Don't spoil it for me.
Posted by: benson at February 6, 2009 3:53 PM
"If you want to know: yours truly was involved in the deployment of the first submarine cable in the world that utilized fiber optics."
That was YOU, Benson? Holy Toledo.
Posted by: East New York at February 6, 2009 3:53 PM
Benson, tough crowd, eh?!
Posted by: Biff Champion at February 6, 2009 4:00 PM
Come on now Benson, we all know you're the total chick magnet! We all saw the picture of you sporting that sexy-town mustache!
http://groups.msn.com/SaintsSimonandJude1971Graduates/shoebox.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=8
MEOWWW!
Posted by: TownhouseLady at February 6, 2009 4:03 PM
Yes, Biff, but I can take it. I'm not inviting anyone to the next get-together of fiber-optic engineers!
There is such a show, you know: the National Fiber Optic Engineers Show (NFOEC). Yup, we're a wild and crazy bunch! They'll be green with envy for not coming to this "event"
Posted by: benson at February 6, 2009 4:05 PM
Are you ever going to tell us which one is you?
Posted by: TownhouseLady at February 6, 2009 4:07 PM
I'm sorry, Benson. I am actually impressed. I work with media people, most of whom (including myself) couldn't make it past algebra/trig (which is why we work in media).
Posted by: East New York at February 6, 2009 4:09 PM
East New York;
I'm only joking. I wasn't upset.
THL;
I'll narrow it down: I'm wearing a tie in the photo.
Posted by: benson at February 6, 2009 4:12 PM
Why are most commenters so damn defensive over this report? It was done by the CENTER FOR AN URBAN FUTURE. Hello??? They are pro-NYC. Get it? I was born and raised in NYC and I take no offense from this. You people are weird...
The name of the study is "REVIVING THE CITY OF ASPIRATION."
"This major report by the Center for an Urban Future concludes that New York’s longstanding legacy as a place that both sustained a large middle class and elevated countless people from poorer backgrounds into the middle class is now in serious jeopardy. "
What's the problem???????
Posted by: bk14 at February 6, 2009 4:24 PM
'You don't get alot of invitations to cocktail parties when you tell folks you're going to talk about chromatic dispersion, atenuation, and other such "chick-magnet" topics.'
Well thanks for the warning as to the topic of conversations you'll be engaging us in at the next brownstoner shindig. Should be a loooooong night.
oh Bennie, you know I jest. It is very impressive.
Posted by: bayridgegirl at February 6, 2009 4:25 PM
That is one bunch of wild and crazy guys, THL!
Posted by: Biff Champion at February 6, 2009 4:27 PM
First of all, I completely agree with Sparafucile @12:57:
For general quality of life, I don't doubt for a minute that you can live a very rewarding life at much lower cost in many cities around the country. The idea that culture or diversity is exclusive to NYC is simply misinformed chauvinism. There is good food, interesting art (performing and graphic), and lovely urban design in almost any decent-sized city.
And now for my own two cents. I don't comment often here, as I have very limited internet access during the day (I'm a high school teacher). I usually find the comments entertaining and informative, but in this thread you all have become parodies of New Yorkers, talking about your celebrity sightings. I've lived her for ten years, not because I have any particular love for NYC (although I do genuinely like Brooklyn, it will never compare to my hometown of San Diego!), but because I happen to like my particular job and school and my group of friends. That said, I'd gladly leave NYC, and may leave next year if I get into a PhD program elsewhere. I find New Yorkers oddly provincial (people in other areas of the USA are more aware that they aren't the center of the world, if only because they don't constantly see their home city on TV), overly obsessed with style and trendiness (Sex and the City syndrome), elitist and classist, and strangely unwilling to grow up, get married, and actually commit themselves to other people over the long term. Every year I tell my students to broaden their horizons and increase their chances of acceptance by applying to colleges outside NYC, and they recoil in horror at the very idea. Where I grew up, our parents encouraged us to leave, and it wasn't for lack of job opportunities in southern California. It was to get a taste of the larger world while still being in a safe college environment, and take some responsibility for themselves. New Yorkers these days are (oddly) amazingly afraid of the world out there!
Posted by: sixyearsandcounting at February 6, 2009 4:30 PM
Biff and all;
Take a look at the whole site - it is akin to that "Canarsie in the 80's" post that Mr. B ran a few months. If you look at our 1981 reunion photos,it looks like the casting call for "Saturday Night Fever".
Here is my diploma from the site:
http://groups.msn.com/SaintsSimonandJude1971Graduates/diplomaphotos.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=162
As you can see, we had "just a few" Italians in my class ;-)
Posted by: benson at February 6, 2009 4:32 PM
mopar on SF: "Everything starts at $750,000 and yes it's bigger and better but it's not cheaper than $750,000. In fact, on the low end, for a single person, owned housing is much more affordable in NYC than in SF. Whereas rents and food are much more expensive."
total rubbish. check out SF real estate (it's easy, they have multiple listings and everything's available from any site,) and you'll find tons of 1-beds for 350-500k. In great condition too, and great locations unless you're talking the equivalent of the UES. In fact, I'd almost challenge you to find many 1 beds in SF for over 750k
Posted by: cmu at February 6, 2009 4:33 PM
Whoah Benson what gives? Who let McFarland's admissions paperwork get through? I don't see a vowel at the end of that name!
(mine ends in O)
Posted by: TownhouseLady at February 6, 2009 4:39 PM
I think the good nuns and priests of SSJ required that a few Irishmen be brought in for their own sanity. People these days forget that at one time there used to be alot of tensions between the "white ethnics" of NYC. The Irish looked down on the Italians many years ago, and the nuns had some of that.
(mine ends in A)
Posted by: benson at February 6, 2009 4:45 PM
sixyearsandcounting--as a New Yorker, I commend your post. You are right. And I am secure enough with myself to agree with the content of your post and not feel threatened. Unfortunately, many people who live in NYC are myopic, provincial, and elitist, but they THINK they're liberal, progressive, and worldly. They give my city a bad rap.
Posted by: bk14 at February 6, 2009 4:47 PM
Congrats, Benson. I agree, that is impressive.
Speaking of Ben Heppner, my friend and I, both opera singers at the time, ran into him at the Brooklyn Diner on 57th Street. He was singing at Carnegie Hall that evening. He was quite nice about being recognized, and chatted with us for a while about singing and the opera biz. A really nice man.
Posted by: Montrose Morris at February 6, 2009 4:49 PM
yeah dave,im finaly agreeing with u on something.Philly $69,196 does not make any sense at all.not when u can buy a house there for 30-40k.and im not just talking out of my ass.i lived in philly and have a lot of friends who live there.i know plenty about the RE,and the quality of life there.
Posted by: buckfast at February 6, 2009 5:06 PM
"(mine ends in A)"
careful benson, we've narrowed you down to one out of seven or so people in the picture!
Posted by: Biff Champion at February 6, 2009 5:35 PM
"overly obsessed with style and trendiness (Sex and the City syndrome), elitist and classist, and strangely unwilling to grow up, get married, and actually commit themselves to other people over the long term."
Hmm, if you think this about New Yorkers, try the Bay Area sometime. More uncommitted, single and weirdo people than you can shake a stick at.
In many ways, NYC is far above most other cities, and it is not "myopic and provincial" to state or recognize that, it's just having a pride of place. In most countries, the city that stands in for NYC (financial, cultural capital, cosmopolitans, and not incidentally the most expensive) is also its capital and the most desirable city. Of course, if you don't care for all the good and bad that comes with a true city, you can like ersatz ones like Houston, San Diego or Atlanta.
Posted by: cmu at February 6, 2009 5:41 PM
CMU,
I certainly don't disagree with your general evaluation of the Bay Area, but one can have "pride of place" while realizing that there are many other worthwhile places to live, visit, and explore in the United States and the world, and without denigrating those places. My point is that many New Yorkers express their provincial attitudes in that they won't, don't, or can't realize this simple fact, and feel the need to constantly engage in self-congratulatory praise about how great NYC is (insert inappropriate circular onanistic metaphor here) and claim that in any other country it would be the capital. Obviously NYC (well, ok, Brooklyn and maybe Queens) is a nice place to live, but one need not call other cities ersatz to affirm that fact. I'm proud of San Diego, and remain a Padres and Chargers fan, but I realize that city has its faults too and that it's not for everyone.
Posted by: sixyearsandcounting at February 6, 2009 6:06 PM
cmu, where are the $350K one bedrooms? I lived there for 12 years and checked craigslist before posting.
Posted by: mopar at February 6, 2009 6:20 PM
Hey, six&counting. Nothing inappropriate about circular onanism (hearkening back to the Sunset Park porn district thread from earlier in the week).
Posted by: Sparafucile at February 6, 2009 6:25 PM
http://www.zephyr-re.com/searchresults.cfm
Representative:
Hayes valley: 359k
Civic center: 385k
Bernal Heights, SOMA, 399k
Having lived 18 years in SF, I know these are all reasonable areas. And, going up:
Parnassus, Lower Pacific Heights: 600-650k
In fact, if you set floor cost to 750k, you get mostly 2 bedrooms. and even:
$759,000 - Potrero Hill - new Condo/Coop
/TIC/Loft 3 bedroom
Posted by: cmu at February 6, 2009 6:37 PM
This is the reason why the real estate plummet, restaurant desperation, etc. is a good thing for us.
The cost of living is in the stratosphere, so as reality begins to kick-in people will have a reason to stay.
For every person who leaves the city b/c (s)he hates it, there are probably two who want to stay but just can't afford it.
Posted by: Come Clean at February 6, 2009 7:22 PM
I'd argue that more people in New York have been to other cities around the country and the world than the typical American, thus say they prefer it here because of experience.
A lot of "middle America" have barely left their home state, much less the country, so of course they don't think that NYC is the be all end all.
Because they haven't been here.
Or much of anywhere.
I'm not saying that to degrade anyone, but it's the truth. I think 20% of Americans have left the country before or something like that. Maybe that's the number that have passports. I remember reading it when it was discovered that Sarah Palin had never been out of the country before.
I'd guess that a huge chunk of those who travel often live in NYC, San Fran, LA, Boston, etc.
Posted by: 11217 at February 6, 2009 7:24 PM
Thanks, cmu. I'm surprised. Good to know.
Posted by: mopar at February 6, 2009 7:38 PM
Damn, 11217, where are all those tourists in midtown from then?
Posted by: mopar at February 6, 2009 7:39 PM
11217 more or less proves my point. Lots of *New Yorkers* have never left their home region (most have been to NJ and CT), and if they go anywhere else, it's Florida. Have you ever been to Middle America and actually talked to people there? Lots of them have seen far more of the USA than the average New Yorker. Believe me, I ask my students this question every so often, and I teach in a school with 4200 kids from every possible socioeconomic group. I share lots of my own travel stories, and the most common reaction among colleagues and students is one of fear - I've never met so many people afraid of travel as I have here in NYC!
It's true that something like 20% of Americans have passports, and I would say the percentage of native-born New Yorkers (not immigrants and dual citizens) with passports is quite similar. Also, up until 2007 you could travel to Mexico, Canada, and (I think) many Caribbean countries without a passport. Thus there were millions of Americans whose only experience outside of the USA was in those countries, and they didn't have passports. This will now change since you have to have a passport or passport card to go basically anywhere.
If I'm not mistaken, Palin had been to Kuwait and Germany in her capacity as Governor, but had never traveled as a private citizen.
Posted by: sixyearsandcounting at February 6, 2009 7:59 PM
"Have you ever been to Middle America and actually talked to people there?"
Now why would I EVER want to do something as silly as that ;)?
Seriously, that sort of statement is meaningless. Of course I (as far as I'm representative of a New Yawker/big city person) "know" well enough that there's different sensibilities, desires, environments and values in this large country. But how, unless I want to conduct research or be a national politician, does it matter if I never experience this diversity firsthand? And that's not the same as being close-minded.
The point is that mostly people tend to live in environments that they are comfortable with, and befriend people with like values and feelings. Same for travel. I'd feel much more at home in Paris, London or Mumbai than in Bismarck, Atlanta or Salt Lake City. That does not make me provincial or unwilling to expose myself. It merely means that, given finite time and resources, I will spend my time where I am most comfortable and where I feel most fulfilled...in cities mostly, and on occasion in naturally beautiful areas, but rarely if ever in the great heartland or suburbia.
Finally, your Palin comment threw me...are you an admirer of hers or are you using her as an example of provinciality?
Posted by: cmu at February 6, 2009 8:21 PM
"A lot of "middle America" have barely left their home state, much less the country, so of course they don't think that NYC is the be all end all.
Because they haven't been here.
Or much of anywhere."
Are you for real?
Posted by: bk14 at February 6, 2009 9:29 PM
quizzote:
I'd argue that more people in New York have been to other cities around the country and the world than the typical American, thus say they prefer it here because of experience.
A lot of "middle America" have barely left their home state, much less the country, so of course they don't think that NYC is the be all end all
want to hear something funny? and it's sad at the same time. i've never been on a plane, ive never been more north than vermont and more other ways than cape cod and and ive never been more south than barnaget nj. :-/ it's kinda lame i know, but you have to realize that a LOT of people just live in nyc cuz well, that is the area they are from, comfortable with, and like it so much they dont really want to move. in college all my professors told me i;d LOVE california. hmm perhaps. i dont know, but then my friends who do live there say how much i'd hate it. who do i believe? it's not like i can just pick up out of nyc and go there you know? and i think many people are in the same boat. we are stuck here. but we LIKE being stuck here. if i grew up in the midwest would i come here? i dont know. if i grew up in cali would i come here? no clue either. point being, i am here, and i like it, and deep down inside i do like transplants... hells i am one being from jersey i guess.
my grandmother is STUCK down in south carolina. she HATES IT! no offense to people down there but she has told me some nasty things about it down there and do you know she actually asked me if we could get an apt together in nyc or northern nj? when i told her i cant do that it broke my heart.
the funny thing is that i always thought she was the biggest racist EVER! and i hated that side of her. but now all she complains about are white people down there. she says the black people down there are great but that they act in ways that she isnt used to. i dont know what means either. maybe someone can chime in. i love my grandmother but the thought of us sharing an apt in nyc circa 2009 is just crazytown!
*rob*
Posted by: PitbullNYC at February 6, 2009 9:51 PM
sixyearsandcounting is right. My midwestern friends are more travelled than some NYC natives. Rob is a perfect example.
cmu, I have an afterquestion: A very good friend lives in SF, makes $50,000 a year, and complains she can't afford to buy anything. She doesn't want to live in a studio, but otherwise is open. I think the bank would approve $130,000 or so. I bought an 1,100-sq foot one bedroom in Queens for $195,000. Does she have any options?
Posted by: mopar at February 6, 2009 11:58 PM
i cannot stand people using the phrase "middle america" as some socially acceptable put down. please change middle america to jew, black, asian, or anything else and you'll see how gross it is. it's the phrase that insecure people use to feel better about themselves. do you really think that everyone on the east coast is in some way smarter, more interesting, and better educated on the whole than people elsewhere? really? chicago is a gigantic cultural center and certainly their improve, 19th century modern art, modern architecture (frank lloyd wright anyone?) blues and futures markets are unique to that city and leads in those areas in the US. so, just give it a rest.
and travel has way more to do with money and time, then anything else. the majority cannot afford to fly out of the country. be realistic here.
i am absolutely tied to NY for work, and could not find the same opportunities in my field in another city, but would not rule out moving if that changed. i personally just love everything out west from the rockies to LA to Seattle, and, yes, of course, Las Vegas!
i've been a new yorker for forever and love NY, but enough with the name calling.
Posted by: wine lover at February 7, 2009 12:59 AM
Wine lover: I am not using "Middle America" as a putdown - although maybe you're not referring to me. My 94-year-old grandmother has lived in Bismarck, ND (one of the cities cmu doesn't feel (s)he needs to visit) for over 60 years. I've spent twenty summers in Minnesota, one of my favorite states. Obviously, travel is in part a function of money and leisure, and I am lucky to have a bit of both, as an unmarried teacher with no student loans to pay off. That said, many of my students' families fly to Bangladesh, Poland, and other far-off locales with some frequency. Like most other things in life, travel is also a matter of *priority* - if you save, and are willing to accept non-luxury accommodations, you're probably able to travel if you have the time and the energy to plan ahead!
cmu: If you're only willing to spend time and money traveling to places you're already comfortable in, how is that in any way fulfilling? How is that educational? What do you learn by spending time among people who are similar to you? Are you challenged in any way at all? Do you ever question the assumptions you have about life? NO. That is the very definition of being provincial.
Btw, I am not an admirer of Palin, not in the least! I voted for Obama, for a variety of reasons, chief among them that I have quite a bit of experience traveling in the Middle East. But *you* stated "I remember reading it when it was discovered that Sarah Palin had never been out of the country before." I'm merely correcting your provincial misinformation.
Rob: save up some money, if you can, and get on a plane and go! Backpack through the more affordable parts of Europe, Southeast Asia, or the Middle East - you'd love it.
Posted by: sixyearsandcounting at February 7, 2009 2:21 AM
sixyearsandcounting - you seem to hang with an atypical bunch of New Yorkers. 40% (I am shouting that number) of New Yorkers weren't even born in the USA. Perhaps you need to visit some more of New York City.
Posted by: dittoburg at February 7, 2009 9:48 AM
mopar, not sure. Iit's not a fair to compare Queens to SF city proper. SF is too small, more like Manhattan (or maybe even Manhattan below say 140th)
I'm sure, however, that she could find such a place in Oakland, a reasonable commute from SF and in many ways the equivalent. Or Burlingame or South SF though I would not wish those places on any friend.
I guess I'd agree that it's easier to find 200k places a little further from Manhattan and still have a good quality of life than from SF (unless you like the suburban environments surrounding SF).
Posted by: cmu at February 7, 2009 10:01 AM
buckfast,,,i hope you meant to type $300-400k and not $30-40 k or you are talking out of your ass. There's no urban location in the country where you can get something for $30-40k.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at February 7, 2009 10:24 AM
Personally I don't think travel makes you more or less "provincial." that's a mindset and I have met plenty of well-traveled people who would make the guys in Deliverance look sophisticated and open-minded.
60andcounting- you came here with the same attitude I saw in the thousands of people who came to NYC after 9-11. They all had that same, tired, New Yorkers are hard, elitist, rude, obnoxious and think only NYC is important. And 90% of them went home with a whole new outlook. I heard people say such things as "All New York women are whores." And that they were afraid to leave the hotel unless they went in a pack. And when they went home, I heard them say how they thought NYC was wonderful- how everyone bent over backwards to to nice, how people got off trains to show them the UN, or took them all out to dinner, or invited them home.
You need to put all your old, outmoded ideas of what you think New Yorkers are, aside and learn something about us. And if we think NY is the greatest city in the world- I supposed you never heard a Frenchman say Paris was, or a Londoner claim London is. We love it with all the passion of a school rooting for its home team- it takes a truly great city to inspire that kind of passion. You are writing scenarios about NYC and its people that we don't live. It's your interpretation- not the reality. So before you accuse us of being elitist, obsessed with style and provincial, you need to take a long look in the mirror at your own urban insecurity.
rob- I've been through most of the eastern Hemisphere but haven't yet had the time or money to travel further. Most of my family are great world travelers and someday I would like to be also. You'll do it when you can.
Posted by: bxgrl at February 7, 2009 10:24 AM
Yeah, good point, cmu. SF = Manhattan and the other boroughs don't exist. Oakland = New Jersey or Westchester or something like that. She doesn't want to move out of the city either. I will tell her about your analogy.
Posted by: mopar at February 7, 2009 10:50 AM
Bxgirl et al: yes, you can love NYC with the all the passion you want. But that's not what is going on in this thread, or in the other one on Miami. This isn't about pride of place--give me a break. It's about needing to justify your life by putting others down.
Commenters are downright insulting other populations, cities, states, WHILE positing NYC and New Yorkers as superior and cultured. It's really pretty pathetic. It's indicative of a small, unsophisticated mind. And of immaturity. I think that (maybe) I had a bit of this attitude when I was 17 years old, for about a year at most. Then I grew up and realized there's a whole big world out there. If the 40% statistic is true, then most of you commenters are not even originally from NYC. You need to get a life. Insecurity reigns supreme on this and similar threads. 11217 continues to lead in this respect. I just hope that the opinions expressed on some of these posts are not representative of the real world.
Posted by: bk14 at February 7, 2009 2:28 PM
Folks;
I'll jump into this discussion, late in the game.
I'm a native New Yorker, and except for 2 years in grad school, it's always been home to me, in the way that Bxgrl expressed way up on this thread. It's where my memories, family and friends are.
Having said that, I can't believe what CMU is saying above about only associating with people and places which are of like mind and values. This is the very definition of insularity.
In my work, I have to travel often to "Middle America". I find alot of good people there. These are the people who grow our food and who work in our factories. I enjoy going there, and seeing a different slice of life. When I have discussions with them, I often hear things from a different POV, and it makes me re-examine my assumptions. You cannot grow unless you do so.
NYC is a great place, and there is certainly a wide spectrum of folks here. However, it is not a world unto itself. Again, how many farmers do you meet in NYC? How many NY'ers make a career out of the military? Indeed, to turn a trite caricature on its head, how many folks do you meet who live in a trailer park?
There's a big world out there. Embrace it, which is the point Sixyearsandcounting was making.
Posted by: benson at February 7, 2009 3:36 PM
Dittoburg: I teach in a public high school where well over 50% of the students are immigrants or children of immigrants. I hardly think I need to get out more.
bxgrl: No, travel in and of itself does not make one less provincial, but refusal to travel, or at least refusal to travel out of one's comfort zone, is evidence of being provincial. My "interpretation" is based on my ten years of experience living in this city. I'm not sure what other reality I'm supposed to base my opinion of New Yorkers (and yes, by now I include myself in that category).
My other points have been made by benson and bk14, so I rest my case.
Posted by: sixyearsandcounting at February 7, 2009 4:31 PM
I find it amusing that wine lover is accusing other people of putting people down and earlier this week had this lovely quote to share:
"these "new Central and South American Latinos" can f*ck off. they are TERRIBLE for our society."
Ok, not so much amusing....more disgusting.
Posted by: 11217 at February 7, 2009 5:11 PM
benson, I stand by my words. There's a reason for the expression "birds of a feather etc." If your close, real friends don't share a lot with you, you're pretty unusual. I'm not saying that one can't have plenty of diversity among acquaintances, sports buddies, board memberships and what have you.
NO one said Middle America or whatever was not "good." But if I think NYC is the best, it means in all kinds of mostly objective ways, it's best for me, and, by extension, people I associate with.
In fact, *your* eager desire to chat up farmers or for that matter nuclear scientists or back-to-the-earthers or all kinds of people who don't live in NYC is just as suspect...as they'd say in my ex-state (CA) you're still finding yourself.
Posted by: cmu at February 7, 2009 5:24 PM
"Middle America" to me means just what it says. Americans who live in the middle of the country and not on the coasts.
It is not a derogatory term.
We have seen from the election however that much of "Middle America" does seem to be leaning in one direction which differs from that of the areas on the coasts with regard to political and social issues.
It's not better or worse...it's different.
Posted by: 11217 at February 7, 2009 5:37 PM
CMU;
You have a disturbing propensity to put words in other folks' mouths. This is not the first time you've done this in a discussion with me.
For you information: my close friends do share my values. I don't know where I said that they don't. I am active in a local religious/fraternal/charitable organization, and I devote a fair amount of time to it.
It is precisely because I am grounded in my values, and secure in them, that I want to talk to folks who have a different point of view. There is such a thing as mental "in-breeding", if you're not careful..
One of the great strengths of this country is that it is "dynamic": it takes in different folks, and integrates their values to form a union. Believe me, few countries have this ability. I travel often to Japan too and one of the reasons they have been in a funk for 15 years is that there is no "new thinking" there about how to regain their edge. They are too homgeneous.
Posted by: benson at February 7, 2009 6:41 PM
what the hell r u talking about DAVE? my friend just got a house in the kensington area of philly for 40k.i guess i dont really know about philly.300-400K? in Philly? i dont think so.
Posted by: buckfast at February 7, 2009 6:55 PM
A scary read:
http://www.nytimes.com/
2009/02/08/us/08lehigh.html?_r=1&hp
Posted by: 11217 at February 7, 2009 7:32 PM
Omg, 11217 how much of a wannabe are you? You're one of those guys that you see on the street, know nothing about him but you're SURE hes a d*ck. Long time New Yorkers know people like you, we walk past and say to ourselves "I just wanna slap that a*shole". Please excuse the vile tone, its just a New York thing. Something you know nothing about. Run along and watch reruns of Sex and the City...
Posted by: cornerbodega at February 8, 2009 12:45 AM
I guess that's the difference between New Yorkers and transplants.
I don't walk down the street and want to slap anyone.
Especially not people I know nothing about.
You give New Yorkers a bad name, cornerbodega. You sound like the really ignorant kind. I'm glad I haven't come into contact with too many people like you.
Posted by: 11217 at February 8, 2009 5:11 PM
"my friend just got a house in the kensington area of philly for 40k.i guess i dont really know about philly.300-400K? in Philly? i dont think so."
Kensington to Center City = Bronx Projects to Manhattan
I guess you don't really know anything about Philly.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at February 9, 2009 9:03 AM
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