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February 19, 2009

Inside Third & Bond: Week 72

astc-garbage-0209.jpg
In 1948 the American Public Health Association predicted that the garbage disposal would cause the garbage can to “ultimately follow the privy” and become an “anachronism”. This prediction was made some twenty years after the garbage disposal was invented but fifty years before garbage disposals would be legalized in New York City. The garbage disposal was meant to be a healthier way to dispose of kitchen scraps – resulting in less vermin and stench. The downside was that sewage systems had to deal with considerably more organic material than ever before. Today, around 50% of American households have garbage disposals, most of which were produced by the InSinkErator company. Not even in those households has the garbage can disappeared but the garbage disposal’s popularity has fluctuated.

Well, the garbage disposals maintain steady popularity at Hudson. From the beginning, we planned to have garbage disposals in every kitchen sink at Third + Bond. Then, as we were running through the cabinetry bids, we came across a smelly problem. The cabinetry designed for the kitchens does not have a specific location for a garbage can (or recycling). The cabinet beneath the sink is too small given the disposal to provide room for a regular sized kitchen garbage can. Other under-counter cabinets are too far from the sink to be practical for garbage or are needed for things like silverware drawers. The result: residents would have to set out a freestanding trashcan in the kitchen, use a smaller can beneath the sink, or we have to figure out a redesign for the cabinetry.

The dirty little secret of most developments, even with beautiful kitchen renderings, is there’s no place to put a garbage can...
(Continued below)

A lot of buyers don’t worry about it until they are unpacking. Since we have open kitchens, the idea of a trashcan – even a fancy stainless steel one – sitting at the edge of the counter is less preferable. Some of the kitchens, such as the U-shaped ones, don’t have an obvious place to put even a freestanding trashcan.

At our office we have pull-out drawers that accommodate two trashcans and two recycling cans. It’s great for keeping the leftover tuna fish sandwiches from stinking up the lunchroom. As we were refining the cabinet bid for Third + Bond we realized that this would be a great detail to add. It’s not the kind of thing that will earn a higher sales price on its own. But it is the kind of detail that raises the overall quality of our product.

That is, if we can make it work.

What do you think? If it’s either garbage disposals or hidden, full-size trashcans, then which should win? Does it matter how big the kitchen is or how it’s laid out? Does it matter if the unit is a 3-bedroom duplex upwards of $1 million or if it’s a studio priced around $300,000?

Wherever we can have both, we will. But if we can’t have both, what should we use as our deciding criteria?

Inside Third & Bond: Weeks 1-71 [Brownstoner]
Cartoon from ASTC.org

From our lawyers: “This is not an offering. No offering can be made until an offering plan is filed with the Department of Law of the State of New York."




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Comments

Hidden, full-size trashcans. No contest.

Posted by: SnarkSlope at February 19, 2009 11:38 AM

there are great looking freestanding garbage cans that are appropriate for a new condo. don't worry about this. really, you need at least 2 cans these days anyway because of recycling.

Posted by: wine lover at February 19, 2009 11:39 AM

i think i finally get this third and bond post now! hahaha.
that was an interesting read tho thanks! im glad i live on the ground floor. we dont even have a trash can in our apartment. all garbage goes out immediately as it is made into the courtyard garbage containers and recycling. it's gross to keep garbage in your apt or house for more than 20 minutes.

*r*

Posted by: PitbullNYC at February 19, 2009 11:41 AM

The bf just remodeled his kitchen and got the drawer with two cans, one for trash, one for recycling. It's dreamy.

Posted by: SnarkSlope at February 19, 2009 11:48 AM

Hidden, full-size trash containers WITH COVERS! W/O covers you might as well be throwing the trash directly into the cabinet.

We had room for neither a garbage disposal nor a full-size trash container. We found a small, in-cabinet system that takes care of trash and recycling. We had to get it shipped from Germany... It was expensive, but it works very well for us.

Posted by: BrooklynButler at February 19, 2009 11:58 AM

I don't think most New Yorkers expect garbage disposals in any case. So where you can't have both, I'd definitely opt for the hidden trash cans. I have an open kitchen where my only option is to have a free-standing garbage can, and while it's a cool stainless steel one and I don't really mind it (and I keep a smaller can for recyclables under the sink), I'd be much happier if there were a place to hide it.

Posted by: Park Sloper at February 19, 2009 12:00 PM

Garbage disposals were actually illegal in NYC up to about 15 years ago

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at February 19, 2009 12:10 PM

WHo cares about garbage disposals. Most of our trash is packaging. Some of it recycle material lots not.
Foods scraps are minor part.
We have Ikea 2 bin on a slider under the sink. Food scraps go into a little copper pail with lid that sits on countertop.

Posted by: Petebklyn at February 19, 2009 12:17 PM

I don't know what humongous beast you plan to have lurking under the sink, but in my 36" cabinet with a 1hp garbage disposal, I have enough room for a pull-out door with an attached garbage (covered) can (on each side.) Less room for cleaning supplies, of course, but that's a good thing; the average home has way too many toxic containers under the sink.

Posted by: cmu at February 19, 2009 12:17 PM

This is such a racist cartoon.
Is she calling that child Garbage?!?!
Trash?
White Trash?

Posted by: bayridgegirl at February 19, 2009 12:18 PM

denton????

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at February 19, 2009 12:19 PM

"Garbage disposals were actually illegal in NYC up to about 15 years ago"

It is extremely rare that something that used to be illegal in New York (or anywhere in the US) is now legal. It's almost always the other way around.


"This is such a racist cartoon. Is she calling that child Garbage?!?! Trash? White Trash?"
I believe she is actually denigrating The What with her statement, "What's Garbage"!

Posted by: Biff Champion at February 19, 2009 12:23 PM

If these units have outdoor space as it sounds like most will, you should forego the garbage disposals and provide each unit with a compact compost bin. It is the true green thing to do; it doesn't overwhelm the sewers, no electricity usage, less water usage, and creates free soil. So much talk of being "green", it is time to put all this talk to action. It is a simple thing to do, it is clean, and for kids it is very educational.

Posted by: oldrte10 at February 19, 2009 12:25 PM

DIBS, see SnarkSlope, that's exactly what I did in the new kitchen. Pullout drawer with two rectangular pails, one for garbage, one for recyclables.

Biff, not really. Not when it comes to building codes. A new invention is great in the rest of the country, the old guard that runs plumbing at the DOB won't have it.

cmu, I'm surprised you got such a hifalutin' appliance. It bet it's chrome plated!

I've also installed a disposal, on my second problem. Plumbers who can't install things that are under a hundred years old!

Posted by: denton at February 19, 2009 12:50 PM

garbage disposals are critical in NYC, but not as critical as a hidden trash can.
You must find a way to do both. you got to!!!!!!!!!

Posted by: commentor at February 19, 2009 1:13 PM

PEX, what's that? No, we only do copper. Typical.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at February 19, 2009 1:15 PM

Rob - glad it only took you 72 posts to figure out this post.

Posted by: Make My Heights the P Heights at February 19, 2009 1:38 PM

bayridgegirl: HILARIOUS!!!

Posted by: Park Sloper at February 19, 2009 1:39 PM

Having lived in California, I am of the opinion that disposals are over rated. Often people put more in them than they should, which just leads to a costly visit from the plumber. Hidden trash cans is the way to go!

Posted by: jwaterb at February 19, 2009 1:56 PM

I find it humorous that the topic of garbage has resulted in by far the most posts I've ever seen in this feature.

Posted by: Biff Champion at February 19, 2009 2:02 PM

Snarky, Biff, snarky.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at February 19, 2009 2:11 PM

Hello Snark, nice to meet you.

Posted by: Biff Champion at February 19, 2009 2:19 PM

we have a kitchen with a freestanding garbage can and almost daily i dream of in cabinet recycling and garbage...never dream about garbage disposal...

Posted by: miss priss at February 19, 2009 4:28 PM

I dream about in-cabinet composting...

Posted by: denton at February 19, 2009 5:31 PM

I have had a garbage disposer for years. It's convenient. Coffee grinds, egg shells, left over scraps of food. I have never had any trouble, and since you are not putting anything organic in the trash, it doesn't smell and you don't have to throw it out every day or use as many plastic garbage bags.
What's the controversy?


Posted by: mcKenzie at February 19, 2009 9:13 PM

maybe i can help - 20 years in NYC's recycling/waste management field; currently handle environmental affairs locally and nationally for insinkerator, meaning i spend most of my time talking about food waste/scraps with state/local agencies, trade groups, enviros, etc.
1. Disposers fully legal in NYC homes since 1997, following decade of study and pilot project; previously legal in newer areas of city. Battery Park City requires disposers in last set of 'green' residential towers; even NYCHA is installing them.
2. 60% of US homes have at least one; 80%-90% of new homes, including most rated 'green'; new National Green Building Standard awards one point for including. Fast-growing international acceptance, esp in countries challenged by organic waste issues; Stockholm just eliminated restrictions and surcharges; Worcestershire County (UK) offers 80 pound subsidy for their installation
3. Food waste @ 15% of NYC's household waste; food scraps @ 70% water, which makes it heavy, odorous, messy, etc.
4. Food scraps loaded into garbage trucks go to transfer stations and then to distant landfills; methane emissions from landfills a significant source of potent greenhouse gases, which is inefficiently captured. Export costs now over $100/ton.
5. food scraps pulverized in a disposer travel easier through sewers, in a matter of hours reaching the city's 14 wastewater treatment plants; at most, energy is captured for on-site use; since NYC stopped dumping sludge in ocean in 1992, nearly all sludge processed into fertilizer products, most of which meets EPA Class A standards for returning organics to soil.
6. in our 5-6 person household, we've not put ANY food scraps at curb since '97; the 20% of our waste that isn't recyclable/recycled is mostly plastic packaging and soiled paper; local squirrels don't bother our bags, and mouse problem under sink ended.
7. Disposers moderately simple to install, and a no-brainer when remodeling a kitchen. Average cost @ $150 for appliance that will easily last 10-12 years; newest models can handle everything, quieter, fewer jams, etc.

glad to answer questions on/off-line

Posted by: kendallgaia at February 20, 2009 9:50 AM

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