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February 11, 2009
House of the Day: 599 5th Street
This new listing at 599 5th Street will be an interesting barometer of the market. It's a beautiful limestone house on a park block that's got tons of detail and is in excellent shape; it's the kind of place that should have almost universal appeal. We also like the fact that the two-story extension solves the perennial problem of how to fit the kitchen on the parlor floor. The asking price is $2,400,000. We can't wait to see what it sells for. There's an open house on Sunday from 1 to 3 p.m.
599 5th Street [Brown Harris Stevens] GMAP P*Shark
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Comments
At 17' wide and 3 stories, the $2.4 million pricetag doesn't make it that attractive of a proposition.
Posted by: bk14 at February 11, 2009 1:22 PM
We will revisit this one soon in "This Week's Recent Sales" Team Bear will be hibernating. I stick my neck out as a pompous Asshat that knows nothing about real estate and got PWNED in the ghetto and say: This will go for very, very close to ask, if not above. And it will be post-Lehman!!!!!
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at February 11, 2009 1:25 PM
why do i have a feeling Dave is right and this will go for about 2 mil?
Posted by: secondbecky at February 11, 2009 1:26 PM
Yowzers! What's not to like? It's a single family (Yes! No tenants!)The details are stunning. This is the perfect combo of painted (light/bright) vs. non-painted wood. The kitchen is a perfect working kitchen (even though I'd want a bigger sink). It's even got a skylight in the MB closet to boot.
I LOVE this house!
I gotta ask this, where does everyone currently live that they think a 17 foot wide house is narrow and cramped? I don't think any of my apartments had rooms that were wider than that.
Posted by: TownhouseLady at February 11, 2009 1:30 PM
What!? No bathroom for the top rear bedroom? Bid $425,000.
Seriously, doesn't float my boat. Too many parlors and the front one is too narrow and lacks a fireplace and the middle one seems to be missing a wall (?) and has no windows. I also don't like the white woodwork or the suburban-dream kitchen.
Also, anyone notice how in the 1890s when fireplaces were no longer necessary for heat, the uber-rich briefly made a symbolic fetish of them and created center stairway fireplace halls like this one?
Posted by: mopar at February 11, 2009 1:31 PM
It's very pretty.
Posted by: northsloperenter at February 11, 2009 1:32 PM
it's one of the best layouts i've seen in ages... i'd finish that basement more and put my maid, nanny and manservent down there
Posted by: sender9999 at February 11, 2009 1:33 PM
THL, as I'm sure you know, a 17-foot-wide house does not translate into 17-foot-wide rooms. Unfortunately.
Hence the useless narrow parlor in the front and the second parlor without windows in the middle, making two too many and not-quite-right parlors.
Posted by: mopar at February 11, 2009 1:35 PM
It's a very nice house, and only 1.9 million out of my price range!
Posted by: cwbuecheler at February 11, 2009 1:39 PM
Becky-
Dave won't be right if it goes for 2 mil. That's 20% off ask.
I agree this will be a good test case. Very little we'll be able to point to as explaining away the eventual sell price for bulls or bears.
Posted by: 2br_or_bust at February 11, 2009 1:40 PM
Oh phooey, I still love it.
A 17' wide house has about 16" wide rooms. Which I think are decent sized rooms. Seriously, you all must live in lofts.
I'm cool with 2 parlors. The front one is a gorgeous sitting room. The second on without the windows is the perfect TV/family room.
Posted by: TownhouseLady at February 11, 2009 1:46 PM
WOW, nice details....
...but, I'm going to Poo Poo the 2nd & 3rd floor core layouts; bathrooms and closets. They could have done so much better.
Posted by: bayridgegirl at February 11, 2009 1:47 PM
Beautiful house. I think Dave is right.
Posted by: Montrose Morris at February 11, 2009 1:49 PM
I've got a 20' brownstone with a 3' wide stairway and a 3' wide hallway before you enter my parlour. That makes the parlour at best 14' wide. I can easily accomodate a sofa and coffee table in front of the fireplace. The fireplace sticks out about 1' and there's still about 3' behind the sofa for the parlour doors to swing.
This place has more than adequate width in the living room, sitting room and the parlour.
Because this house does not have the side stairway and hallway it is more than enough width to accomodate a comfortable living room and dining room.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at February 11, 2009 1:52 PM
It will go close to asking. 576 4th Street, 3 stories, 17x45 (smaller than 5th St.) went for 2.4M on January 26, 2009.
Posted by: broker at February 11, 2009 2:05 PM
Fantastic house especially that rare limestone facade but we think Dave is a touch too bullish as usual; this great house will sell for about 15% off asking.
As far as a barometer this will really shed light on some of the over priced junk that have recently hit the market and translate into more cuts.
Yep Becky @$2millions this will be 20% off as 2br points out.
Posted by: pierre de taille at February 11, 2009 2:07 PM
I live in an apartment where the largest room is 10' wide, maybe 11'. I'd bash my own hand with an aluminum bat just to gain a couple more feet. 17' is NOT narrow.
Posted by: InsertSnappyNameHere at February 11, 2009 2:08 PM
Pierre...15% off would be normal and still a good price. I say this is priced right (as opposed to most other places) and will go very close to ask...more than $2.2 MM. If there's a place where there is a chance to go above ask, its this one. It's a nice place to move to for a lifestyle change for someone who has a 2 BR condo in Manhattan that they bought 6-10 years ago and now have close to $2 MM in equity.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at February 11, 2009 2:12 PM
Really pretty house
I think it will go close to asking as well - maybe shy 100-200K
Posted by: gemini10 at February 11, 2009 2:16 PM
As someone in the market for a brownstone, and after having visited many houses of all widths, I can tell you that, in my opinion, there IS a marked difference in feel and space between the parlor rooms of a 17' and a 20' house. I'm not saying that a 17' wide house is small or unusable--that's ridiculous. I'm simply saying that there IS A DIFFERENCE between 17' and 20' and I've come to the realization that I prefer the feel of a 20' footer, especially at the $2 million price point.
Posted by: bk14 at February 11, 2009 2:19 PM
I'm not sure i totally understand the whole 'team bull' 'team bear' concept.
a year or so ago this would have listed for 2.8 or more and sold at or close to asking.
2.4 is already 15% below peak. if it sells for 2.2 (which it might) that seems like a pretty far way from peak.
for reference, didn't a 3-story 15'er on fifth between 5th & 6th went for 1.9 last year. it was cute but not remotely in the same league as this.
Posted by: manofelt at February 11, 2009 2:32 PM
Dave you may be right @ the 15% off asking but to us that will be a significant cut given that such grand homes use to all sell @ or above asking just 2 years ago. We will be watching this one closely...
Posted by: pierre de taille at February 11, 2009 2:32 PM
The front parlor is 11.1 feet wide, the living room is 13 feet wide, according to the floor plan. So, living room will, as THL points out, comfortably accommodate a couch and TV.
Front parlor will be an uncomfortable affair. I recommend spindly-backed chairs and sitting upright and balancing a tea cup on the knees on formal visiting days.
Posted by: mopar at February 11, 2009 2:33 PM
So Dave would you say anything over 2.2 is a good sign? Below what number on the down side would you be surprised?
My thinking is that 2.2 is a "tread water" point on this one...
Posted by: 2br_or_bust at February 11, 2009 2:36 PM
adding to my point, i believe that this house is within ps 321 whereas the 15'er was in ps 39--that's worth something too.
so unless this sells for well above asking, hasn't the sky already fallen a least a bit and use of the word 'bull'....well, bull?
'team not-so-bear' maybe seems a bit more appropriate.
Posted by: manofelt at February 11, 2009 2:38 PM
mopar...the front parlour looks roomy enough with the sofa and ottoman/coffee thingamajig. That said, since the hallway opens into the "living room" I'd close up that opening from the hallway into the front room and you could put two great sofas facing each other with a table in the middle, kind of a love seat arrangement. you know what I mean. The opening into the hallway is useless and makes for bad space.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at February 11, 2009 2:39 PM
manofelt--you are right I think. This selling at 2.2 would still be a good price, but not anywhere near peak pricing.
Posted by: wasder at February 11, 2009 2:41 PM
I don't think it will go for $2.2 MM. It will go higher. I want to go to the open house on Sunday and see for myself. I hope there's no hidden problems like a fugly bathroom or something.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at February 11, 2009 2:42 PM
This place has a powder room on the parlour floor and lots of closet space in each of the bedrooms. Not often found in a lot of places.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at February 11, 2009 2:48 PM
Manofelt is right, this house is just within PS 321 (south side of 5th St. is not). Mopar, you've clearly never been inside one of these homes. Nothing tiny feeling about them. The biggest drawbacks, would be the F train, and that this is an access street to Methodist Hospital. Even with hospital traffic this is a very quiet, beautiful and well maintained block.
Posted by: vinca at February 11, 2009 2:52 PM
Mano,
You need to go back and read past threads to pick up on the argument. In the crazy world of economic argument on this site, it seems that "treading water" or "not so bear" is the stance of many who have been identified as "team bull." Team bear is reserved for those predicting something substantially more dire than recession followed by recovery, and something more severe than a modest decline in brownstone prices.
For team bear, look for posts by the what and brownstones half off (see, it's right there in the name). Team bull is often, but not solely, represented by DIBS, who seems to be predicting a rise in the Dow and S&P some time this year that may or may not continue as a trend, brownstone prices holding roughly steady at current levels for the time being, and recovery some time down the road (pointing out that stock market is a leading indicator). That's my read of it anyway.
Then there are those of us who are deemed associated with team bear who do not take a forecasting position at all but are lumped in simply because we object to the glee and venom with which team bear selectively reports bad financial news, and seems to wish personal and financial ruin on those who disagree.
There, now you have a scorecard.
Posted by: slopefarm at February 11, 2009 2:54 PM
slopefarm--thanks for that seriously. Just because I don't think the sky is going to fall I end up "siding" with Team Bull, even though I know we are in for a world of pain. I just don't think its going to be the Fort Apache, Bronx of BHO, What and cornerbodegas wet dreams.
Posted by: wasder at February 11, 2009 2:58 PM
"Then there are those of us who are deemed associated with team bear..." you doubtlessly meant deemed associated with Team Bull. this is me as well.
Posted by: wasder at February 11, 2009 3:00 PM
slopefarm.....that was a pretty good assessment of life on brownstoner.
I do believe that everything should sell at 10% below ask. This one though, I think is a winner.
That may come back to bite the seller or the broker though. If it does indeed sell quickly and close to ask, there will be finger pointing by the two that it was underpriced. If they had priced this at $2.9 MM I certainly would not be saying 10% off.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at February 11, 2009 3:07 PM
Simplified:
Team Bear:
What-the original raving lunatic. Hates everybody and wants us all to fuck off and die. Sometimes I cut him slack because I can kind of see where he is coming from on a meta-level but really his goals are antithetical to most people on this site.
BHO--wannabe What and purveyor of all things venemous. Though married with a child and well educated, he comes on here pretending to be a bad boy and predicting with glee the end of Brownstone Brooklyn as we know it. Easily the most egotistical poster on the board.
cornerbodega--either a sock puppet of the What or just a moron.
Lechacal--the gentleman of Team Bear.
Many others who are in general agreement that prices will come down 30-50%.
TEAM BULL
DIBS--I think slopefarm articulated Dibs position fairly well (Dave?). Takes the heat but stays in the kitchen.
Sebb--the most bullish (many would say delusional) poster on the board. Everything is always good in sebb's real estate world.
Me and Slopefarm and lots of others---just hoping things stay about the way they are because we like our lives in Brooklyn. I would imagine that many people on the board fit this category.
Posted by: wasder at February 11, 2009 3:08 PM
Yes, I meant "associated with team bull."
Agree, DIBS. Ask is irrelevant as an indicator.
Posted by: slopefarm at February 11, 2009 3:12 PM
That was fine by me, wasder.
Sad that Miss Muffett left though. She took the heat pretty well and stood her ground.
I can't be any more bullish about the real estate market than to hope things stay as they are. That would continue to price many of the sane posters here out of the market and I feel for them.
Nothing could drive me out of the kitchen!!!
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at February 11, 2009 3:12 PM
Falling off the wagon again: Actually some "Team Bear" types are not necessarily saying prices will crash by 50% but that, given a run-up of 300% in 10 years, it's not inconceivable, and furthermore, many owners (those who purchased pre-2003 or 2004), will probably just find their property's value back to where they started, if not more (i.e. if they purchased before the real boom started). Given the implosion of just about every other asset class, and the classic lag time of NYC, it seems all but certain that that a significant correction in NYC RE prices is in order, and it's barely begun. All but the most bullish (sebb) concede prices will go down further - the only real question is just how deep it will be, and how long it will last. I do not relish with glee over those who will suffer in this climate (since it's affecting those close to me) but it does seem the writing has been on the wall for a long time, and is just getting more obvious.
Posted by: Miss Muffett at February 11, 2009 3:20 PM
I guess that is what it comes down to...being "bullish" means believing/hoping that things remain about as they are for the forseeable future. not too much growth predicted out there.
Posted by: wasder at February 11, 2009 3:21 PM
Just a side note: you know it's bad when people thinking another 10-15% slide are thought of as "bullish".
If this place, which is cherry in my view, does go for 20% or more below this price, it'll portend ill.
Posted by: 2br_or_bust at February 11, 2009 3:27 PM
Miss Muffet,
I did not intend to include you among Team Bear's less sportsmanlike members. Sorry you fell off the wagon. Is there some kind of Brownstoners Anonymous group we should know about?
Posted by: slopefarm at February 11, 2009 3:27 PM
Welcome back Miss Muffett. Its nice to have you here.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at February 11, 2009 3:28 PM
Thanks guys. I'm trying to control myself and at least limit my posts. Gotta make the donuts to buy our house (even at a deep discount)!
Posted by: Miss Muffett at February 11, 2009 3:30 PM
Mr. B--slopefarm's got your quote of the day right up there at 2:54.
Posted by: manofelt at February 11, 2009 3:42 PM
metaphase...i would have to call that nitpicking. A 17 X 20 yard is certainly enough space for sitting out and enjoying a garden. I have a 20 x 40 yard and think it's overkill.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at February 11, 2009 4:16 PM
meta...a buyer from Manhattan will be awestruck by this place, teentsie weentsie garden and all :)
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at February 11, 2009 4:24 PM
Regarding garden size--it's all relative, no? It depends on what a buyer is looking for. Some people want a nice big yard, while others are content with a patio. Personally, one of the main reasons I'm looking to buy a house is to have a nice-sized yard. But that is just one buyer's opinion.
Posted by: bk14 at February 11, 2009 4:48 PM
The many doors in brownstones are not useless. They give a sense of spaciousness to the place.
DIBS, with all due respect, if you closed off the door and put in two couches face to face, you'd feel like you were sitting in a subway car. You would feel uneasy. Most owners in Bushwick have tried this (closing off doors to create private bedrooms) and ruined their properties.
Anyway, just saying, I wouldn't buy a house less than 20 feet wide at any price. But that's just me. I'm more than a little obsessed with floor plans and many other things.
And for those who missed my two postings on the Team Bull vs. Bear topic this week and last, I'm predicting price drops of more than 20 percent in the prime areas COMBINED with rising mortgage rates, thus making these properties MORE expensive. Ha ha ha!
So are actual closing prices for these houses down or not? Nobody on this board seems to know. I certainly don't.
Posted by: mopar at February 11, 2009 5:15 PM
Mopar-
Yea, I don't think anyone has a grasp of the actual closing prices.
And if you're going to offer some speculation, I will too: the price decline in NY will be slow and orderly over the next year and a half and then flat to slightly up for the next couple of years. From today, median psf decline of 15-20% in Brooklyn prime.
Posted by: 2br_or_bust at February 11, 2009 5:42 PM
why would closing costs be down other than the mortgage tax that varies with the size of the mortgage????
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at February 11, 2009 6:08 PM
"BHO--wannabe What and purveyor of all things venemous. Though married with a child and well educated, he comes on here pretending to be a bad boy and predicting with glee the end of Brownstone Brooklyn as we know it. Easily the most egotistical poster on the board."
Wow! I get a longer (slightly but still longer) profile than The What! Thanks, wasder. You're right, I AM egotistical. I rock!
"the end of Brownstone Brooklyn as we know it"???
You mean we're defined purely by brownstone prices???
(Cornball under Bad Boy Cover, Bear Mafia, La Cosa Nosedive)
***Bid half off peak comps***
Posted by: Brownstones Half Off at February 11, 2009 6:28 PM
DIBS, sorry, I don't mean closing costs. I mean the price someone pays for a house when it closes. Actual sale prices. Not asking prices. Anyone know? Are they off in this area or the rest of prime Brooklyn? How much?
If you're looking to buy in a particular prime area, you'll know, from doing comp checks on Property Shark.
I certainly know about the area I live in.
Posted by: mopar at February 11, 2009 10:52 PM
"the end of Brownstone Brooklyn as we know it"???
You mean we're defined purely by brownstone prices???
You know damn well what I mean. If you were really concerned about people you would take a very different attitude about the implications of what you are crowing about. If you don't get that then there is nothing I can do for you. I am sorry you find all of this so amusing. I assume you are not really as much of an asshole as you come off here because somebody married you but that is the best thing I can think of to say about you. I like What 100 times more than you because for better or for worse he is who he is. You are a two-faced poseur.
Posted by: wasder at February 11, 2009 11:26 PM
Are you folks smoking the sticky stuff again?
Knock off a million dollars and I'd maybe go look at the house.
The economy is in a tailspin and investment banking is on the way to hell.
Who in their right mind is going to risk anywhere near 2.4 million on this nice, but only 17 foot wide abode?
NOBODY.
Posted by: IronBalls at February 12, 2009 12:11 AM
"Who in their right mind is going to risk anywhere near 2.4 million on this nice, but only 17 foot wide abode?"
The two bit bagholders...
Posted by: cornerbodega at February 12, 2009 2:06 AM
and ignorant wannabes
Posted by: cornerbodega at February 12, 2009 2:08 AM
IronBalls & cornerbodega make for an intellectually stimulating tag team don't they.
Too bad they are pretty much clueless as to why people might find this house attractive.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at February 12, 2009 8:41 AM
"If you were really concerned about people you would take a very different attitude about the implications of what you are crowing about."
Man up. This is life on earth. You bought into the hype of the MARB. Deal with it. Then learn from it.
"I like What 100 times more than you because for better or for worse he is who he is."
I care.
"You are a two-faced poseur."
We all are. It's a blog.
***Bid half off peak comps***
Posted by: Brownstones Half Off at February 12, 2009 10:02 AM
some random sampling of cheerleading quotes from dibs AFTER the respective dismal data hit:
"Consumer confidence is up", "93% of the country is employed", "recession? what recession Black Friday sales shows all is good", "I have a line of people waiting to pay more for my ghetto house" etc etc
Posted by: cornerbodega at February 12, 2009 10:45 AM
"Man up. This is life on earth. You bought into the hype of the MARB. Deal with it. Then learn from it."
I bought a house and home office and I am glad I did. I am a good neighbor and member of my community. I have put my money where my mouth is, unlike you. It is so easy to sit here and shit on everybody. I am surprised you still find it amusing. Try doing something with your life.
Posted by: wasder at February 13, 2009 12:26 PM
"You are a two-faced poseur."
We all are. It's a blog.
I'm not. I have put myself out here honestly and told people about the process of buying my house. It is hard to be honest sometimes, and I expressed my concerns and my hopes etc honestly and featured pictures on this blog. That is being oneself, something you could learn a bit about. Sitting on a blog and pretending to be something you are not does not make you tough. It makes you pathetic.
Posted by: wasder at February 13, 2009 12:29 PM
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