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February 27, 2009

Fulton Mall Appears To Be Bucking Retail Downturn

Biking through the Fulton Mall this week we were struck by how unaffected it appeared to be by the recession and broader downturn in the retail environment. We obviously don't have any numbers on sales trends at any of the stores, but we were impressed by the fact that there was only one small store that was empty and only one other For Rent sign on the entire seven-block stretch. This is in marked contrast to the scene on Flatbush and Atlantic Avenues and, well, almost everywhere.

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even in a bad economy a girl can never have too many wigs or cell phones!

*r*

Posted by: PitbullNYC at February 27, 2009 10:35 AM

i really really also hope this doesnt sound too messed up to say, but most shops that cater to people on government assistance to begin with always do well regardless of the economy. millions of people are losing their jobs and have to cut back, but welfare and benefits money is still there. actually i might be sounding ignorant, do people still get welfare money or is it just in the form of housing assistance and food benefits?

*r*

Posted by: PitbullNYC at February 27, 2009 10:37 AM

This just demonstrates what's often been mentioned on this sie and elsewhere -- sales per square foot (and rents) here are among the highest in the city. And many of the shoppers here were never as blessed by economic good times as many others; conversely, they are not as affected by the downturn. "If you ain't got nothing you've got nothing to lose." It may not be the kind of shopping many people on this blog like, but it does seem to be a bit more satble than more "upscale" retailing.

Posted by: babs at February 27, 2009 10:39 AM

Dear Rob,

The vast majority of people who shop here (and the vast majority of lower-income people everywhere) are not on government assitance, believe it or not. Most of these consumers are just regular working people, in relatively low-paying jobs, many of which may be in civil service -- they never had any $2 million doller bonuses to worry about losing, so they're no worse off than they were before. Welcome to how the rest of the world lives.

Posted by: babs at February 27, 2009 10:42 AM

I don't know how Macy's survives. the area is a sea of discounters ( who as you rightly say, seem to weather a downturn best)I know the plan for the area was to make it more of an upscale shopping experience, but with the change in the economy, I could see the anchor store sight becoming something lower end, like a kohls

Posted by: binnyG at February 27, 2009 10:44 AM

Sorry for the typos -- that would be "site" and "stable" in my first post -- the stress of reading Rob's comments above (Is he really that ignorant or just a provocateur?) made me rush.

Posted by: babs at February 27, 2009 10:45 AM

Rob-

Ignorant AND racist.

Remember when Obama was elected and you wondered what the big deal was all about?

To categorically write off everyone who shops at Fulton Mall as being on government assistance is the same as saying all black people live in the projects, sell crack and eat watermelon and fried chicken.

Sometimes I like your posts but sometimes you are BEYOND ignorance and must be called out on it.

Posted by: Prodigal_Son at February 27, 2009 10:46 AM

no babs, i do realize that. i think my wording was bad. and i dont know if you anything about me to begin with, but these are the types of shops i do shop in. no boutiques for this chile.

*r*

Posted by: PitbullNYC at February 27, 2009 10:46 AM

I agree about Macy's, but it does seem to always be crowded. I loved that store when it was A&S, and now, with rumors of Gage & Tollner and Armando's returning, perhaps that will be revived as well.

And, again, sorry for the typos -- "assistance" and "dollar" above.

Posted by: babs at February 27, 2009 10:50 AM

i never brought race into it. stop baiting. im the least racist person ever. jeez. ive lived in areas like this and i still shop in areas like this and i DO know the type of people who shop here. people who would rather buy a wig and a cell phone instead of baby formula. if you think that's racist to say, YOU are the racist one. not me. cuz there's just as many white skanks in other cities who do the same exact thing. hello, my mother!

*r*

Posted by: PitbullNYC at February 27, 2009 10:50 AM

I think the Fulton Mall caters to more people than those on governemnt assistance. Let's be fair. It is actually a very vibrant and profitable retail destination. The shopfronts don't stay shuttered for long. That is because it has critical mass and great public transportation. It has survived all kinds of wrong-headed government interventions and "beautification" programs and has come through it all as a ragtag, but successful, discount shopping magnet. The gentry in the three-million dollar brownstones nearby may not like it, but they never go there anyway. The Fulton mall is where the regular folks of north Brooklyn and even Manhattan go for bargains and specialty items.
I disagree with the efforts of some to "upgrade" the area. It doesn't need upgrading. Montague Street needs upgrading and fewer vacant stores.

Posted by: sam at February 27, 2009 10:51 AM

I shop on this street for some things, and have for years since I was a kid. To me, it's no better worse than 80% of the shopping districts in this entire city, particularly when you include Macy's. It's nothing special I'll admit, but why would it have to be? Clearly it serves its community. I can only suppose that the mostly minority clientele is a factor in the ignorant and uninformed commentary I often read on this blog with regards to the Fulton Mall.

Posted by: East New York at February 27, 2009 10:53 AM

I am often amazed that Macy's is still there, but I was in a week or so ago and it was packed. Appears they are still doing a booming business.

I remember when Alexander's was there. An A&S too if i remember right. I bought my first pair of Air Jordan's at VIM (the black 3/4 ones with the gray snakeskin-ish trim) back in the 80s. Saw my first movie at the theatre that is no the church....

I love Fulton St. mall, I manage to do a lot of my Christmas shopping there. Great to have close to the house

Posted by: christopher at February 27, 2009 10:53 AM

Fulton may attract folks who (generally speaking):

Do less shopping online giving their preferred retailers more foot traffic

May not have as much credit so utilize stores that offer layaway

May not have personal transportation so find all in one shopping districts like Fulton convenient

May not feel comfortable or find the products they're looking for in more upscale shopping districts

May find nostalgia and charm in the district

All of these could be reasons for why Fulton is doing well.

Posted by: LilBitOfLuck at February 27, 2009 11:03 AM

prediction: in 5 years we are ALL going to be shopping at the fulton mall.

*r*

Posted by: PitbullNYC at February 27, 2009 11:06 AM

The Macy's is one of the top grossing in the country. One of my best friends works for Macy's Corporate.

As is the Target at Atlantic Terminal.

You can complain about these stores all you want, but those are facts.

Fulton Mall is terrific for what it is. I wish 7th Avenue was 1/2 as vibrant.

Posted by: 11217 at February 27, 2009 11:08 AM

The Macy's occupies the A&S building on Fulton Street. Federated Departments Stores owned both Macy's and A&S; changed its name to Macy's Inc. ... and changed the names of all its department stores, including A&S, to Macy's. The merchandise available at the Fulton Street Macy's is much like the merchandise available at the 34th Street Macy's.

Posted by: 16Street at February 27, 2009 11:14 AM

"i really really also hope this doesnt sound too messed up to say, but most shops that cater to people on government assistance to begin with always do well regardless of the economy. "

Whoa why no one is tearing Rob a new one??????? If "The What" would've made a statement like this the Asshats would scream like hell!!!! Hey BENSON!!!!!!!!!! Where are you??? Man about decency!!!

With this I think the rules of engagement has changed. I will say WHATEVER I feel like and Ferk the consequences!!!

The What (Hypocrites!!!!!!)

Someday this crap is gonna end...

Posted by: Return of The What at February 27, 2009 11:16 AM

poorer people spend their money. affluent people hoard it in mutual funds where most of it evaporates.

Posted by: sam at February 27, 2009 11:16 AM

11217...that's a surprise. maybe as lil bit of luck suggests, the fact that the area is less driven by customers with access to credit, may have some reflection on it;s sucess as a retail hub?

Posted by: binnyG at February 27, 2009 11:16 AM

well i shall addend my statement that people are viewing as racist then to include people in rent stabalized apts as being on government assistance too. there. i said it.
blah! at least my statement IS true now.

*r*

Posted by: PitbullNYC at February 27, 2009 11:19 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P36x8rTb3jI

This is why Fulton Mall is strong. Peeps be gettin' mo' handouts, yo! Obama be paying fo' my gas, son.

Posted by: PropJoe at February 27, 2009 11:28 AM

so is there a form of benefits that provides people with money to buy wigs and cellphones? i don't know of any such program.

i do most of my clothes shopping at fulton mall, get the rest at C21 or Daffys. i don't know what the big deal is, recession or not, this is a big city, there's always gonna be people available to cruise up and down the mall.

Posted by: Jimmy Legs at February 27, 2009 11:30 AM

It's hard to believe, but it's true. I actually find myself somewhat agreeing with what Rob says and strongly disagreeing with 11217. Do you really want 7th ave to look like Fulton? The place is a shithole of staggering proportions.

And after a multitude of extremely ignorant and, to put it mildly, misinformed statements that Rob usually pulls out of his ass, this is the one you people wanna tear him a new one for?

I might've said this before, but here goes anyway: the fuck is wrong with online commenters in general? I guess the sane ones tend to be quiet and not post.

Posted by: heck_of_a_job_brownie at February 27, 2009 11:47 AM

aren't we all kinda on Govt Assistance in some way or another?

Posted by: gemini10 at February 27, 2009 11:55 AM

I loved fulton mall- shopped there for years - and loved the movie theater (except for the running rats). I am still heartbroken over the disappearance of the Bridge St fabric stores which saw me through many a decorating, bridal and costuming job. I bought tons of baby stuff when my niece and nephew were young down there- and got many a clothing bargain. I totally agree with sam- it doesn't need upgrading. Montague does. Why can't politicans learn- if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Posted by: bxgrl at February 27, 2009 11:55 AM

I didn't say I wanted 7th Avenue to look like Fulton Street.

I said I wished it were more vibrant. Big difference.

And p.s. I don't find Fulton to be a "shithole of staggering proportions." I wonder if people would say the same thing if it looked just as it does, same stores but with all white shoppers.

This thread has become ridiculous. Rob is most certainly not racist, btw.

Posted by: 11217 at February 27, 2009 11:55 AM

I see why you picked the user name "heck of a job brownie"

Posted by: bxgrl at February 27, 2009 12:06 PM

"Rob is most certainly not racist, btw."

BTW, I agree and did not mean to infer he was with my own comments. Although I definitely agree he posts some strange comments from time to time, if you look back, Rob has been one of the people who has ADVOCATED shopping in the Fulton Mall

Posted by: East New York at February 27, 2009 12:56 PM

exactly. totally advocate it but i called it how i perceive it.i have never shopped at the fulton mall but i used to always shop in the same exactly kind of stores when i lived in harlem. i mean they serve their purpose because there are a LOT more people in the city who need things from stores at the fulton mall than might need something at some ridiculous overpriced tiny one rack clothing boutique in williamsburg.

again, if my comments even remotely sound racist i apologize. sometimes i have digital diarhea.

*r*

Posted by: PitbullNYC at February 27, 2009 1:02 PM

I love the Bklyn Macy's and also shopped there when it was A&S. Although there are always shoppers there, it is SO much less of a zoo than the Manhattan Macy's which is insane and stuffed full of year-round tourists. Same merchandise, and Macy's always some kind of sale going on. Macy's is great. And it's convenient to hit up the Children's Place across the street plus whatever else at the mall while I"m there.

Posted by: mscrochety at February 27, 2009 1:07 PM

where else but outside Hoyt-Schermmerhon, can you pick up your welfare check and spend it all in two blocks on sneakers, fast food, cell phones, belt buckles, baubles, and basketball jerseys? And then even make it to the court house one more block away in time for your baby daddy's child support case! God bless America. No universal health care but we're still able to give out tax dollars for people to buy incense and bootleg hip hop CDs. Good prioritizing, liberals. Make amends for your guilt first, fix the country second.

Posted by: Billiamsburg at February 27, 2009 1:17 PM

oh stfu billiamsburg. i love incense and bootleg hip hop cds!

*r*

Posted by: PitbullNYC at February 27, 2009 1:26 PM

You know, I could just as easily turn this around and accuse of racism those of you who don't think African-Americans deserve better than shopping in the shithole that is Fulton Mall. But that would just force us all to abandon the issue at hand and start bragging about who's got more black friends.

I really don't care who shops there. If it looks like a shithole to me, then that's going to be my opinion. In the end that's all these comments are. Accusing somebody of racism or anti-Semitism for no good reason is a coward's way of using an ad hominem attack to escape an argument.

bxgrl: I see how you'd come to that wrong, yet asinine conclusion

Posted by: heck_of_a_job_brownie at February 27, 2009 1:32 PM

some of my best friends wear wigs.

Posted by: goldie at February 27, 2009 1:36 PM

Billiamsburg,

Pretty much any poor urban or semi-urban area. (go to a strip mall in Upstate NY, the welfare office is usually very close).

It's funny to hear people call Fulton a shithole, among other things. It used to be a real shithole, with empty stores and groups of teens waiting on the corner to relieve shoppers of their heavy bags. My friends and I used to spend our allowance there and had to shop in packs to avoid being mugged.

But you know what, it was still better than 5th Ave was at the time (mid 80's).

Fulton is not pretty, but it's reasonably clean for the amount of traffic it gets and it is very safe. It also attracts many city and court employees, who shop during lunchtime.

Posted by: Troy McClure at February 27, 2009 1:39 PM

"I might've said this before, but here goes anyway: the fuck is wrong with online commenters in general? I guess the sane ones tend to be quiet and not post."

It's amusing to me that the "person" complaining about online commenting is the one using profanity with the nastiest comments so far on this thread.

And you've just admitted to not being sane either.

Posted by: 11217 at February 27, 2009 1:39 PM

If its thriving, leave it be. God knows we need at least some parts of the economy working.

Posted by: dittoburg at February 27, 2009 1:43 PM

I noticed about 6 vacancies along Fulton Street. You just need to keep a better eye out. They don't all have real estate for lease signs up.

Posted by: Shoots and Leaves at February 27, 2009 2:00 PM

gee, heck of a- A little paranoid and defensive there, aren't you? You and billiamsburg friends? Because the 2 of you seem really asinine to me. That was the "asinine" conclusion I came to.

Posted by: bxgrl at February 27, 2009 2:04 PM

It's amusing to me that the "person" complaining about online commenting is the one using profanity with the nastiest comments so far on this thread.

And you've just admitted to not being sane either.

*****

You're right, I knew I'd get called out on that. I think my point still stands, though Brownstoner board tends to be much more civilized and more informative than most others.

Also, I have to point out, I'm just stating my opinion and not advocating that some external entity force its aesthetics on the people who are more than happy to spend their money at Fulton Mall.

Posted by: heck_of_a_job_brownie at February 27, 2009 2:16 PM

"African-Americans deserve better deserve better than shopping in the shithole that is Fulton Mall."

I'm black. I shop there. I also shop on 34th street in Manhattan, and all over this city and other U.S. cities, for that matter. Like I said, it's not great, but it's not a "shithole" to me. If you don't like it, it's your right to say so. However you can't presume to understand or appreciate what black people "deserve."

Posted by: East New York at February 27, 2009 2:27 PM

However you can't presume to understand or appreciate what black people "deserve."

*****

I don't. Black people (or any people) are a diverse enough group that no one can make that kind of a presumption. My point was to make an equally silly (and fake) argument, like the ones that were being thrown at me, to stave off all those "you're a racist" comments. I do dislike malls in general.

Posted by: heck_of_a_job_brownie at February 27, 2009 2:38 PM

Yuppies are at a total loss to understand or appreciate Fulton Mall because it is an authentic piece of urban culture. Not transplanted suburban culture. It is a place were all kinds of people go, because it is convenient and because you can get all kinds of goods for a variety of prices. It may not be "Martha Stewart Living" but it is not a shithole either. I think that fancy house culture whether in the city or the country, is all about pretentiousness. Fulton Mall is not at all pretentious. It is a bustling down-home marketplace as it has been for over a hundred years. It isn't SoHo, it is real. It's one of the last places where you can go and not see tourists.

Posted by: sam at February 27, 2009 2:55 PM

In a bad eczema a gizzard can never have too many wildebeests or cement.

Posted by: bridges at February 27, 2009 3:09 PM

marry me, sam! Great post!

Posted by: bxgrl at February 27, 2009 3:21 PM

I finally agree with you Sam!!!!!!

Posted by: 11217 at February 27, 2009 3:40 PM

sam, I smell a QOTD (or is that scent a gizzard?)

Posted by: Biff Champion at February 27, 2009 3:51 PM

Biff, The gizzard comment was awfully good. pithy in that cryptic sort of way. I could no more outdo that than one of The What's megalomaniacal tirades. His whole problem is that he doesn't wish to see Black Brooklyn turn White. Brownstoner is of course world headquarters for the White "reconquest". And our friend Dave is the personification of that phenomenon. It never changes. It's always the same thing. That's why I have stopped reading his posts. Altho to be fair, I seldom read posts much longer than this one from anyone.
I am slightly attention deficient that way.
Bye now.

Posted by: sam at February 27, 2009 4:21 PM

Sam;

OK, I'll be the curmudgeon on this one. I fail to see what is "authentic" about the Fulton Mall. If folks want to shop there, that is fine. However, to me, it's no different than a few other threadbare shopping streets in NYC. I think folks on Brownstoner like to praise "mom and "pop" places, and I can understand it to a degree. Note, however, that there exists in NYC some "cheap" merchants who, in my opinion, could not care a wit about their community, and Fulton St. has a fair share of them. I'll just point out one such type of merchant: VIM, which seems to be all over the place in this city. They are neither a mom-and-pop place, nor a national store. They are VIM, a cheap NYC chain. What is so authentic about that?

Posted by: benson at February 27, 2009 4:33 PM

Sam;

One more point regarding a factual issue. You are incorrect when you state that Fulton St.has been a down-home marketplace for over 100 years. In fact, at one time Fulton St. was an elegant shopping street. I have home movies of my mom taking me there, decked out in white gloves and all, and she was just part of the scene there.

Posted by: benson at February 27, 2009 4:41 PM

What amazes me is how the Downtown Brooklyn Partnership can call this area "underused." It's one of the liveliest shopping districts in the city. The very fact that it's weathering this economy proves its relevance.

Bloomberg and Doctoroff are systematically attempting to wipe out anything that serves lower income classes. Did anyone see the screening of FUREE's documentary on this subject the other night in Fort Greene? I missed it.

Posted by: chorosch at February 27, 2009 4:41 PM

benson, I think sam means in the sense of down-to-earth, not not pretentious. I never found Fulton St to be anything but lively and a great place to find bargains.I wouldn't call it upscale for sure, but threadbare it's not.

I'm sure it was much more elegant at one time (I love seeing the Schrafft's on the side of the - I think its the drugstore now? It must have been beautiful. But nothing is as elegant as it once was, and women don't put on white gloves just to go out anymore. I think sam's description was spot on, really, and don't forget he was replying to a really obnoxious remark. So if I were going to take anyone to task for hyperbole it would be heck of a brownie.

Posted by: bxgrl at February 27, 2009 5:15 PM

bxgirl is right. At one time ladies wore hats and gloves to shop for underwear and hair rats (the Victorian version of hair extensions) And most of the shoppers on Fulton Street were White. But that does not mean that this was a street of millionairea or robber barons. This was a street for ordinary people who lived in ordinary places. the "carriage trade" bought their goods in Manhattan or when on tour in Europe. This was strictly Brooklyn Bourgeoisie. Today, you may see ladies and gentlemen employed by the City or hospitals or wherever buying thir underwear and fake hair. What's the dif? Blacks were not allowed to work at these stores long ago, but they shopped there, if they had the cash. I think benson is seeing things through the lens of nostalgia.
Fulton Street was always "Brooklyn" and sixty or seventy years ago that did not mean "elegant".

Posted by: sam at February 27, 2009 8:01 PM

Sam and Bxgrl;

Sorry, but I'm still going to disagree with you on this one. A few points:

-at the time that the brownstones were built, Brooklyn was highly bourgeoise. When it was developed, Park Slope was the welthiest neighborhood in the entire USA. Brooklyn Heights and Clinton Hill were not far behind.

-please take a look at the photos of Fulton St. in the BHS book entitled "Old Brooklyn in Early Photographs" and you will see what I mean.

-Finally, you are making a incorrect statement on my behalf. I did not say that Fulton St. was the place for the rich when I was a kid. What I did say, and continue to maintain, was that it was much more elegant when the Dept. stores like A&S, Martins and others held sway there.

Posted by: benson at February 27, 2009 9:26 PM

I don't think Brownstoner has been to Fulton Mall too many times. It is what is it is, despite the inevitable future changes and past incarnations.

Fulton Mall is downscale compared to nearly all NYC shopping experiences (Saks to SoHo to Smith Street ), but it is always full of life and affordable stores. Would you rather have a J.Crew or Banana Republic be there?

Fulton theatre was great, first time seeing crazy Charles Bronson movies to House Party.
Gage&Tollner will never come back, and Macy's taking over the old A&S is underrated ... still a very good store, and easy parking even now in the garage. You can't beat the fact that the Fulton Mall is at the crossroads of Brooklyn. Still a good shopping experience for all of Brooklyn. Don't forget Cookie's!

Posted by: buttermilk channel at February 27, 2009 10:12 PM

Fulton Mall is fine. It will be there when the wine bars in more affluent neighborhoods close.

And that's not a bad thing.

BTW, Rob -- your statements were incredibly offensive. Being poor and gay doesn't give you a free pass.

Posted by: Heather at February 27, 2009 11:32 PM

It seems pretty clear to me: the stores that get most of their customers by foot or transit are doing okay, while the stores that depend on customers coming in cars are going down.

Anybody think that the Fulton Mall will be doing better after Joe Chan builds his parking garages with our tax money?

Posted by: Capn Transit at February 28, 2009 1:26 AM

"Fulton Mall is downscale compared to nearly all NYC shopping experiences (Saks to SoHo to Smith Street )"

Not at all true. In fact, the Fulton Mall experience is very similar to Fordham Road or the Hub in the Bronx, or 181st Street in Washington Heights, or Jamaica Avenue in Jamaica or, for that matter, Journal Square in Jersey City. Ten years ago, I could have included 125th Street in Harlem, but not now that it's overrun with tour buses.

Posted by: Sparafucile at February 28, 2009 3:46 PM

Correction... I should have written "Fulton Mall is downscale compared to some NYC shopping experiences (Saks to SoHo to Smith Street)"

Posted by: buttermilk channel at February 28, 2009 6:15 PM

quote:

BTW, Rob -- your statements were incredibly offensive. Being poor and gay doesn't give you a free pass.

and you being a blogger and a woman doesn't give YOU a free pass for the stupid things you say either. what's your point?

*r*

Posted by: PitbullNYC at March 1, 2009 1:27 PM

chorosch, "underused" is code for "not getting as much money in rent as they could if the place were upscale".

Posted by: oneonetwotwoone at March 2, 2009 10:38 AM

« Close-Up on the Commandant's House The Sleepy's Addition Revealed »

February 27, 2009

Fulton Mall Appears To Be Bucking Retail Downturn

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