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February 2, 2009

Bushwick Goes National

bushwick-gallery-0209.jpgLike Williamsburg before it, the Bushwick brand is spreading beyond New York City's borders. This weekend, The Philadelphia Inquirer brought news of the gritty but increasingly arty nabe to its readers in the City of Brotherly Love. "Over the last few years, the two-square-mile Brooklyn neighborhood has been attracting visionaries outpriced by neighboring Williamsburg or disillusioned by Chelsea's artiste scene," writes the paper. "Studios, galleries and spaces that defy categorization are appearing in former bodegas, 99-cent stores, and other unglamorous structures." The 'Wick manages to maintain its street cred with a killer quotation from Laura Braslow of non-profit Arts in Bushwick: "The Bushwick art scene is not about sipping wine and looking at white walls," she said. A few of the recommended galleries include English Kills, Ad Hoc and Factory Fresh.
Art Grows in Bushwick [Philadelphia Inquirer]




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Comments

I saw this over the weekend in the Inquirer. Most people in Philly have never heard of Bushwick and really couldn't give a damn.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at February 2, 2009 10:54 AM

I reckon most people in Bushwick may have heard of Philly, but really couldn't give a damn.

Posted by: SnarkSlope at February 2, 2009 10:57 AM

Good point but at least in Center City the quality of life is higher.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at February 2, 2009 10:58 AM

I believe most artists in Bushwick call it East Williamsburg, but people in Philly think they're one and the same.

Posted by: cb6 at February 2, 2009 11:01 AM

"most artists" and, of course, real estate brokers.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at February 2, 2009 11:04 AM

Oh, please.

As per usual, the poor and the hard working, working class people, mostly Hispanic and black, are tossed to the side. These families, who have struggled since before the riots and fires of thirty years ago to make Bushwick a decent home, have been so totally forgotten by the city, they may as well have not even been in the city.

My relatives told me about the vibrant, thriving shopping district that was Broadway under the J train, and of the well kept beer meister mansions, and solid middle class homes of Bushwick Ave, when they were growing up in the 40's - 60's. When I first visited the area in the late 70's, early 80's, the store fronts on Broadway were still burned out, the area was desolate, and the whole area looked like Dresden after WW2. It was the worst place I'd seen in NYC, and I've seen pretty much all of the city at one time or another.

Since then, some semblance of rebirth has occurred, and many new Central and South American Latinos have come to call this neighborhood home, but most of them are not people of great wealth. Services have slowly returned, but this is still a poor neighborhood, with some fine old housing stock, lots of new construction, and great old manufacturing buildings, and some of the ugliest public housing in New York.

I have no problem with artists and hipsters occupying the old factories and starting businesses, galleries, and shops. That is great. I do wish that in all of the ga-ga celebration of new hipsterhood, someone, lots of someone’s, would look around and realize that a good neighborhood is made when everyone’s boat is floating, everyone is benefiting, not just the hip and happening newcomers. Williamsburg has a unique mix of old timers, Hispanics and white ethnics, as well as the separatist Ultra Orthodox, who combined with the new hipsters and wealthy people, exist without much interaction, while most of the services and attention go to the newcomers. Bushwick is set to have this happen to them, as well, and that is not right or fair.


Posted by: Montrose Morris at February 2, 2009 11:21 AM

living in Bushwick gives you more street cred than living in "east williamsburg"

Posted by: Santa at February 2, 2009 11:23 AM

Very true, Santa. Certainly why I don't post as daveinstuyvesantheights LOL

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at February 2, 2009 11:29 AM

This is good exposure for Bushwick...we have to go visit never been there but the place seems genuinely interesting:)And MM we will try to always look at the positives and not look for racism in everything. This article thankfully had nothing about race as far as we can tell... and we will venture to say the artists are from all ethnic backgrounds right?

DIBS we went to college in Philadelphia and we really understand the massive "inferiority complex" the town folk have in relation to NY...it can be tough being a big proud city but completely overshadowed in all respects by a much better city just 100miles away.

Posted by: pierre de taille at February 2, 2009 11:33 AM

pierre...from the people I know down there I don't think there's any inferiority complex...just the opposite actually. Didn't you know that everyone, everywhere outside of NYC thinks all New Yorkers are assholes?? You can always tell one in a restaurant in Philly...loud, obnoxious, pushy with that annoying accent!!!

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at February 2, 2009 11:38 AM

I enjoyed my Philly steak. How about them Steelers?

Posted by: cb6 at February 2, 2009 12:01 PM

DIBS we cannot disagree more dude. New Yorkers are actually well looked at in most places outside NY and rightfully so. The sympathy factor after 9/11 helped a ton and even Europeans who can't stand Americans give New Yorkers a pass. Now We personally like Philly albeit not as much as NY.. simply a better place to us overall. Maybe we just had different experiences qui sait?
For even more contradictory anecdote when we went to visit family in France of all places everyone treated us like rockstars with all sorts of admiration for NYC including Brooklyn. Tons of folks with NY Yankees caps and "I love NY" t-shirts plus the young kids tried to emulate "that annoying accent".

Posted by: pierre de taille at February 2, 2009 12:02 PM

pierre...many years ago I met two Japanese guys who were going to school in New Jersey to study English. I shuddered.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at February 2, 2009 12:05 PM

>"New Yorkers are actually well looked at in most places outside NY and rightfully so. "

You're kidding, right? The Onion said it best when they ran the headline, "Rest of Country Temporarily Feels Deep Affection for New York" right after 9-11.

Posted by: SnarkSlope at February 2, 2009 12:11 PM

DIBS - have you gotten stuck in "snark" gear? As someone who is not reading this site as much as I used to, I was really put off by your snide comment about what Philadelphians think. I spend a fair amount of time in the city of brotherly love and sisterly affection, and most of the people have a fair amount of curiousity about the rest of the world. Obviously a feature article isn't meant to be taken that seriously.

Okay, lecture over. I really want to get over to Bushwick. My life doesn't allow me as much exploration as I would want. Montrose Morris's points are well taken and well written. There always seems to be a tension between the needs and lives of those struggling to get by and those with more money.

Posted by: Putnamdenizen at February 2, 2009 12:23 PM

Interesting that the article is syndicated and ran first in the Washington Post. Clearly there's a national news market for stories on Brooklyn.

Posted by: East New York at February 2, 2009 12:25 PM

"loud, obnoxious, pushy with that annoying accent!!!"

Funny, that sounds like someone from.....Philadelphia.

Posted by: East New York at February 2, 2009 12:26 PM

Putnamdenizen...yes, I believe Philadelphians do have a lot of interest in the rest of the world. it was really more of a snide comment towrds Bushwick!!!

ENY...I don't have an accent from New York so I'm not sure who you're referring to.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at February 2, 2009 12:29 PM

Pierre, I don't see racism everywhere. I only mention race to say that the population of most of Bushwick is Hispanic and black. That is merely a demographic, not an indictment.

This blog posted a photo recently, from a magazine article that ran in the late spring or summer, that touted Bushwick as the new "it" place. Every single person in the picture was your classic "hipster" - skinny, square glasses, slightly goth, tattooed, white and young. The article and the photo was roundly trashed here, for its pretentiousness, as well as non representation of the community.

As I said, I have no problem with galleries, etc, and I am sure there are people of color involved with the arts and cool scene in Bushwick. That isn't the point, and their participation in such is neither here nor there. I wasn't calling anyone racist. My point, is that the indigenous population of Bushwick, as it were, needs to be included in any positive benefit to the neighborhood. I would say that no matter what the racial or cultural makeup of that neighborhood.

Posted by: Montrose Morris at February 2, 2009 12:33 PM

"ENY...I don't have an accent from New York so I'm not sure who you're referring to."

I didn't mean you personally, Dave. I've never heard you speak! I meant the description - "loud, obnoxious, pushy with that annoying accent" - sounds like it's about someone from Philadelphia.

Posted by: East New York at February 2, 2009 12:42 PM

This is a reprint of a Washington Post article from several months ago.

Posted by: Jeremy at February 2, 2009 12:49 PM

MM, we were simply saying that the article was a light commentary on the emerging art scene in Bushwick and just that. Guess one can read more into it but to us there was no need to mention the racial make up of the neighborhood since it didn't seem relevant to the discussion..emerging arts in Bushwick Brooklyn.
BTW if you look at the accompanying picture you will see that there are a few Blacks and Asians in the mix...just noticed that too after your comment on prior article. Sometimes we wish all humanity were purple.....aaaahhhhhh!

Posted by: pierre de taille at February 2, 2009 12:55 PM

Interesting:

http://www.lawrenceblum.com/philadelphiainferior.htm

Posted by: 11217 at February 2, 2009 12:57 PM

I think MM posted a dose of realism- not racism, pierre. The fact is that many "up and coming" neighborhoods are a matter pf perception and marketing. People overlook or misunderstand or even ignore the people who are already there and who have made a neighborhood already. Maybe not the neighborhood you want to live in, but nonetheless, a neighborhood. People aren't waiting to be discovered or saved- and while its nice that artists are moving in, and Bushwick is getting attention for that, we shouldn't be forgetting that people lived and worked in Bushwick before the artists discovered it. And that was the socio-economic reality MM refers to- not racism.

Posted by: bxgrl at February 2, 2009 1:03 PM

11217 yes interesting, merci.

Posted by: pierre de taille at February 2, 2009 1:06 PM

Back in 2000 even Brooklyn had an inferiority complex vis a vis Manhattan. Things change. A psychiatrist who writes humor articles on his website (and a crappy one at that)doesn't carry a lot of credibility.

Secondly he's basing his findings on the statements made by the crazies who are his patients!!!!!!! I think that's the best part.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at February 2, 2009 1:19 PM

"New Yorkers are actually well looked at in most places outside NY and rightfully so."

"For even more contradictory anecdote when we went to visit family in France of all places everyone treated us like rockstars with all sorts of admiration for NYC including Brooklyn. Tons of folks with NY Yankees caps and "I love NY" t-shirts plus the young kids tried to emulate "that annoying accent"."

Pierre;

I hate to break this news to you, but in most places in the US the mention of NYC, France and Jerry Lewis does not cause folks to break into song and dance.

Posted by: benson at February 2, 2009 1:20 PM

Montrose - you are totally out of line. Why does one ethnic group get to live in an inexpensive area, but another doesn't? WTF? what you are saying is completely racist.

why do hispanics many of whom are illegal, and many of whom are on of gov't assistance get priority over tax paying, actual americans? are you serious?
these "new Central and South American Latinos" can f*ck off. they are TERRIBLE for our society. they send the majority of their money out of the country, and undercut americans seeking work.

AND, the whole idea of an indigenous population makes no sense anyway! who is that??? from point in time? wasn't most of Brooklyn white middle class 40 or 50 years ago anyway?

US citizens who pay taxes are entitled to live anywhere they want even if they are white.


Posted by: wine lover at February 2, 2009 1:22 PM

Pierre, I didn't read the article until after I posted my initial remarks, which is not usual for me, I usually get as much information as I can before shooting off my mouth, or fingers, as it were.

That said, it was a fluff piece, and all about the galleries and the artists therein. No mention of anything of substance. I find that bad journalism. You don't have to go into a history of Bushwick in order to mention its name, but I think even a fluff piece needs to say something to reference in the larger community. "These galleries are adding a new dimension to the eastern portion of this predominantly Hispanic working class neighborhood, which was once the home to New York City's successful breweries and other manufacturing." That would have been a start.

Posted by: Montrose Morris at February 2, 2009 1:23 PM

benson...I remember many years ago when I moved back to the US from Hong Kong and was talking to someone in California about the current shows on primetime TV. They said "why would we want to watch a bunch of shows about all the crime in NYC (Law and Order) and the lives of those wretched people (Seinfeld)."

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at February 2, 2009 1:25 PM

http://pixelmurder.net/wordpress/2009/01/flatrate-the-hipster-move-023365/

Posted by: Bklnite at February 2, 2009 1:25 PM

Wine lover, your comments are so absolutely stupid that I won't even deconstruct them further.

If you are looking for racism, try a mirror.

Posted by: Montrose Morris at February 2, 2009 1:27 PM

Bklnite....I saw that on the subway...very funny.

Have you seen... www.diehipster.com

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at February 2, 2009 1:29 PM

THE HIPSTER MOVE
a checklist by FLATRATE

Moving to: [ ] williamsburg [ ] bushwick [ ] greenpoint [ ] fort greene

Reason for move: [ ] gentrification [ ] proximity to music venue [ ] writer’s block [ ] artistic differences

[ ] schedule a free moving consultation at your co-op/loft/art space

[ ] fold skinny jeans/ironic t-shirts/flannel into wardrobe boxes

[ ] separate Proust, Nietzsche and Freud collections in specialized book boxes

[ ] plan on spending your free time grooming ironic facial hair while the moving company does the rest

[ ] get a custom box for fixed gear bicycle

[ ] don’t pay hidden fees, explore hidden emotions

[ ] arrange for moving company’s IT setup to ensure speedy blogging in your new co-op/loft/art space

[ ] resolve daddy issues

Posted by: Bklnite at February 2, 2009 1:30 PM

"are you serious?
these "new Central and South American Latinos" can f*ck off. they are TERRIBLE for our society."


You mean they are terrible for your property values.

Every word you utter on this website is veiled in your transparent attempt to uphold property values in North Brooklyn. Whether it's a glowing recommendation of every single restaurant in Williamsburg to now blatant and TERRIBLY offensive racism.

Posted by: 11217 at February 2, 2009 1:36 PM

WOW...wine lover is a real psycho. Haven't seen that much crap since the old faded type guest days.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at February 2, 2009 1:36 PM

diehipster is a little too mean-spirited for me. The subway ads are funny ... I like the growing family move too.

Posted by: Bklnite at February 2, 2009 1:37 PM

Wine lover may have just been hung over -- perhaps too many cartons of the cheap stuff during the super bowl last night.

Posted by: Bklnite at February 2, 2009 1:39 PM

Bklnite,

We don't need any excuses for racism.

"I like the growing family move too."

Saw that one yesterday on the train. They are fun.

Posted by: 11217 at February 2, 2009 1:41 PM

Oh blahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblah.

This much is true:

*The loft area is Bushwick, not East Williamsburg.

*The artsy hipster scene is mostly happening in the loft area, not the residential part.

*The neighborhood is mostly hispanic, not black.

*Right now this minute there is a very nice balance between the various groups, and they occupy different types of housing, and no one is being pushed out.

A few caveats: Most of the art is not very good but there is a great deal of performance, music, and interesting events going on all the time. If you want to see what the neighborhood offers, go during Open Studios and make a point of seeing anything curated by Maggie Pounds. She is really good.

Yes, there are definitely hispanic and black arty hipsters, but most are white. Many of these "hipsters" are recent college grads looking for cheap housing. Many are political activists. They crowd horrible substandard and illegal housing for $800 each. They are mostly not competing with the other major group of the area for housing, the recent Mexican immigrants, who tend to pay even more (less per bed but more per apartment) to double up and triple up on rooms rented individually by Spanish speaking landlords. The Spanish speakers are not interested in lofts; the arty grads are mostly only interested in lofts.

All of that said, rents have been rising in the area, particularly around the L Jefferson stop where the lofts converge with traditional housing (two-, three-, and six-families). For example, a three or four-room railroad apt used to rent for $1200 and now it runs $1400 to $1600. Usually the immigrant families make do by living with a third adult, usually a sister, and sharing three jobs and child care responsibilities. Single people tend to rent a room directly from a landlord. They pay very little individually but the rent roll is high -- higher than it would be if the building were being used legally. These are always advertised in Spanish on paper fliers. The two populations don't really interact -- the landlords often don't speak English and don't know about Craigslist.

I sometimes see places like this for sale and wonder what will become of the tenants. There is one now for sale on Stanhope where a Vietnam vet could be displaced from his $400 a month basement studio. There is another one for sale on Troutman where the tenants expressed to me worry they will have to leave, although the total rent roll on the building is higher than market rate. These are two- and three-family buildings that are not under rent control. They're simply below market for now. Most of the tenants are in their 50s and are hispanic, some speak perfect English.

It's not true that nobody cared about Bushwick until the media started writing about hipsters in lofts. Bushwick is very famous for staging its own comeback from the blackout and fires of the early 1970s and crack in the 80s and 90s with community based organizations such as Make the Road, the local credit union, community sponsored agriculture, activists such as Maria Hernandez, and political-machine politician Vito Lopez. I am a member of Make the Road, and I attended the vigil for José Sucuzhañay and I was thrilled to see so many different people from different walks of life, different colors, different sexual orientations, all coming together in a spirit of cooperation and similar purpose and values. I would say this is typical of Bushwick.

Posted by: mopar at February 2, 2009 1:43 PM

But it's true the hype about artists in Bushwick seems to have reached an insane level of hype in the last two weeks. I was eating dinner in a restaurant in the West Village last week and talking about how much attention Bushwick has been getting, when suddenly we noticed the table of ten old friends behind us were toasting to Bushwick and talking about how they have to get out there and visit the galleries. I think they were being sarcastic. Maybe they heard us or maybe they didn't. It weirded us out.

Posted by: mopar at February 2, 2009 1:46 PM

The area was Italian in the 1950s. Current property owners are mostly "people of color," both hispanic and black and from a wide variety of countries, such as Dominica, Puerto Rico, and the U.S.. Also Italians, Chinese, East Indians.

Posted by: mopar at February 2, 2009 2:12 PM

montrose - really? hmmm you don't know me. americans vs. illegal aliens? that's racist? it's the black americans who are most affected by illegal aliens btw. and i don't care what color these illegals are. they are criminals. anyone who hires an illegal alien, (including brooklyn parents) is also breaking the law.

if you don't think that they are especially a drain on poor african americans, you are incorrect. they eat up our tax dollars by attending our schools and getting free lunch and free after school care. they clog up the emergency rooms and other social services.

they do not pay taxes and do not re-invest in our economy. the statistics on the money flowing out of our company prove this.

also, i disagree about the art not being very good. some of it is terrific.

Posted by: wine lover at February 2, 2009 2:16 PM

As both a resident and landlord in Bushwick, I would like to add a few thoughts.
Yes, the neighborhood is mostly latino, south and central American. I find these folks are hard working, friendly and make excellent tenants. The new hipsters (young, white, skinny jeans) generally keep to themselves and generally live in Bushwick for the same reason as the Latinos - its cheap, has good services, and is reasonably close to Manhattan (especially if you are near the L). Certainly things are changing - buildings are being renovated and a few new bars and restaurants have come in but by and large, I find that the two groups tend to co-exist fairly peacefully and I don't see rapid gentrification driving folks out of the area.
One last note: Bushwick is a big neighborhood - on the west end it is mostly industrial and has a number of loft buildings inhabited by artists. Along Broadway, under the train, the area has much more in common with Bed-Stuy. Along the L train, it is mostly Latin, solidly working class with a sprinkling of young folks looking for cheap rent and in the East, near Broadway Junction, it is pretty rough with more in common with East NY. This area also has great brick rowhouses that can be had for less than $500K.
Bushwick is a real Brooklyn neighborhood with thriving retail and solid residential blocks. I encourage Brownstoner readers to come and explore my neighborhood.

Posted by: JoeBushwick at February 2, 2009 2:22 PM

dave - only in this upside down liberal town that we share would my opinion be considered "psycho." since when is stating the truth the wrong thing to do? are you white? if so, isn't some one out there saying that you were wrong to move to bed-stuy? of course. that is exactly The What's point. He calls you an idiot almost daily. you argue with him, but aren't you saying as much to him, as I said in my post. ie: that you have the right to live anywhere you want?

Posted by: wine lover at February 2, 2009 2:23 PM

I know many illegal immigrants. This country would be far better off if everyone worked as hard as they do.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at February 2, 2009 2:27 PM

winelover, for the entire time we thought you were actually a descent human being....yeah that comment makes you lose all credibility here. Absolute garbage you know? We can only hope that you were consuming too much wine for your own good.

MM it was a very light er "fluff" article about art and intended to be that way. You read way too much into it my friend. Again no need to bring in the racial make up of the hood... la vie ne doit pas etre si dure! Sorry about winelover hopefully he/she doesn't blame it on French wine.

Posted by: pierre de taille at February 2, 2009 2:28 PM

I don't think Dave has ever said this about any group of people:

"these "new Central and South American Latinos" can f*ck off. they are TERRIBLE for our society."


The fact that you see nothing wrong with this statement boggles my mind.

Posted by: 11217 at February 2, 2009 2:29 PM

The only person who gives me shit about moving to BedStuy is the What. He's even worse when it comes to brownstoner and where he lives. When he speaks of "neighborhood makeup," for lack of a better phrase, he sounds as ridiculous as you do.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at February 2, 2009 2:34 PM

Thank you 11217. I take back the nastiness from the other thread. Well, maybe.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at February 2, 2009 2:36 PM

Hey Winelover this is the RACIST comment DIBS is reacting to: "these "new Central and South American Latinos" can f*ck off. they are TERRIBLE for our society". How can you defend that with a straight face and make it seem as if its about illegal immigration? Psycho is actually a kind description in our opinion. Really pathetic and sick comment don't ya think?

Posted by: pierre de taille at February 2, 2009 2:45 PM

It's ok Dave. I realize I do sound "bitchy" sometimes. I don't mean to, though. Sorry.

And btw, I've been trying to "out" winelover as the psycho that he is for months now to no avail. I had no idea he was THIS psycho though.

I mean, not only is he disparaging an entire group of his own neighbors, but then tries to throw in that he thinks the Bushwick art is good too in the same breath. So creepy.

My comments about Williamsburg in the past about how (in my own experience) that some of the people there don't seem to be a community and that the newcomers want nothing to do with the older residents seem to be highlighted here in his remarks quite well today. I'm not saying it's Sesame Street in Brownstone Brooklyn (it's NOT!) but I've come across more than my fair share of "winelovers" who live in Williamsburg and have no respect for anyone other than their own "kind"

Maybe it's a coincidence.

Posted by: 11217 at February 2, 2009 2:45 PM


"dave - only in this upside down liberal town that we share would my opinion be considered "psycho.""

Nah, I think your views would be considered "psycho" in any number of places. A statement like "these "new Central and South American Latinos can f*ck off" provides a revealing clue into your mentality.

Posted by: East New York at February 2, 2009 2:51 PM

Agree with Dave, like I've said before on this blog, the recent Mexican immigrants are a very positive presence in Bushwick. On the whole, an amazing group of people. I admire them and enjoy living among them.

Also, to another point, if illegals use fake social security numbers, they certainly do pay social security tax, and they never get it back. And to another point: It's the employers who take advantage of illegals, not the illegals who take advantage of US society. The employers exploit them because they don't want to pay minimum wage. Law enforcement looks the other way, or, more recently, punishes the illegals instead of the employer. It's a REALLY sick system that sh**ts on those who least deserve it.

Posted by: mopar at February 2, 2009 2:58 PM

mopar...my illegal Mexican friends earn well above minimum wage. That is largely because the people who employ them know they are hard workers. No, there are no benefits but the employer probably wouldn't offer them to legal people here in the US either. All of this is the basis for much serious discussion.

To put it in perspective, remittances last year from the US to Mexico were $25B, from legal and illegal residents.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at February 2, 2009 3:03 PM

I don't see where talking about a neighborhood means you can't talk about it demographically.The ethnicity of any neighborhood is part of its reality- and I don't mean in a judgemental way. MM was simply pointing out the make up of the neighborhood and the way that the existing population is overlooked in terms of contribution to the life of a neighborhood.
Truthfully, when did the "fluff" articles ever give a real context to the subject, or the NYTimes talk about a new "edgy" neighborhood by recognizing that the pre-existing population had anything to do with a neighborhood becoming desirable? They don't and MM is simply pointing that out- that doesn't make what she says a statement of racism unless you choose to misinterpret it that way.

Posted by: bxgrl at February 2, 2009 3:04 PM

Hold onto your hats folks, because I'm going to agree with Montrose and Bxgrl on this one. Actually, Montrose and I have agreed on this point before.

I am always bemused when the NYT and other such papers write these fluff pieces on "emerging" areas. It's one thing to say an area has an emerging arts scene, it's another to write as if these areas didn't exist until the artists showed up on the scene.

The NYT does this all the time, and my favorite piece in this regard appeared in their Sunday real estate section about 6 months ago (and I commented about it on Brownstoner at the time). The piece was about how "difficult" it was to find a townhouse in Brooklyn and Manhattan that had a garage. My jaw dropped, as there are 100's of thousands of 1 and 2 family rowhouses in NYC with garages. Brenda from Flatbush cleared up the mystery, however, when she informed me on the thread that "townhouse" is code for places that NYT reporters would deem worthy of living in, as opposed to the great unwashed.

Posted by: benson at February 2, 2009 3:15 PM

So many times I have gotten that stupid email chain letter that claims illegal aliens are going to get social security funds even though they supposedly don't pay anything into it. And how many times have I sent around articles stating the truth of the matter only to have someone tell me I am a "stupid, ignorant liberal." Yeah- I must be, because I don't see illegal aliens as the huge problem the conservatives make them out to be. In fact, I venture to say that the illegals in this country have contributed a huge amount of money to the system as customers, consumers and workers. Or did we think they eat and drink air, and live outdoors in cardboard boxes?

Posted by: bxgrl at February 2, 2009 3:15 PM

Glad someone is making above minimum wage. Unfortunately, this wasn't the case at the Associated on Knickerbocker.

Posted by: mopar at February 2, 2009 3:16 PM

we heart you benson :-)

Posted by: bxgrl at February 2, 2009 3:17 PM

The parts of Bushwick that I am more familiar with are next to Bed Stuy, near Halsey, Broadway, Bushwick, which is mostly residential, with a commercial strip. I've also worked with businesses in the industrial spaces that are near the back of the cemetary, going towards Queens, and near Cypress Gardens. I realize Bushwick, like many Bklyn neighborhoods, is quite large, and I'm glad that there is really room for everyone. I still hope that there is enough political activism from both oldtimers and newcomers to work out the inevitable gentrification issues. I defer to the most excellent Mopar on this regard. Her posts in defense of Bushwick have always been right on.

I'm sorry, Pierre, but I continue to disagree that the racial and ethnic makeup of Bushwick is irrelevant. It is neither racist, or non-racist, to bring it up, it's just a fact of the neighborhood, and a part of what makes Bushwick, Bushwick. I think it is possible to be so worried about not offending, or being politically correct that we cancel out those things that contribute to what or who we are. To have a gallery in Chinatown and not mention the area's rich ethnic history is to deny its importance, in my opinion. To describe me and leave out the fact that I am African American, is not elevating us into a non-racial society, it's overlooking who I am, and negating a part of me that helps define who I am. That is all I am saying here.

Posted by: Montrose Morris at February 2, 2009 3:19 PM

benson...I agree with you on this one as well. I beleive the Associateds are all independently owned but its surprising that something of that nature (its a coop is it not) would allow that sort of thing.

My friends work down in Brooklyn Terminal Market.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at February 2, 2009 3:21 PM

Thanks, Benson! (Bow in your direction).

Posted by: Montrose Morris at February 2, 2009 3:35 PM

Every New York Times reporter I know lives in Manhattan or Park Slope. I think it shows.

Posted by: mopar at February 2, 2009 3:44 PM

As a quasi-illegal high-income wine-loving tight-jeans-wearing hard-working white alien, I'd like to join 11217, DIBS etc. in being mind-boggled and more than slightly revulsed by winelover's comments.
Even if you did have a point about illegal immigrants (which you don't, since entire sector of your country's economy relies on exploiting cheap labor), your going from "Hispanics, mainly of whom are illegal" (...) to "f*ck them all" is a thing of beauty. Not even to mention your fetish for US citizenship, or the fact that you seem to mistake "company" for "country".
The list goes on.

Posted by: MrsCWB at February 2, 2009 4:02 PM

Brownstoner:

I met recently with a prominent and influential New Yorker who's been in the city his/her entire life -- good times and bad.

Why's the town doing so well? I asked.

Because of the immigrants, s/he answered, who help fill formerly empty housing, create demand for real estate expansion "from the bottom" and replenish depleted neighborhoods.

Just 15 or 20 years ago, vast tracts of New York's housing were in tax arrears and taken over by the City. No more!

For the immigrant haters, there was a time when the Irish were depicted as sharks in Papal hates coming out of the sea to devour New York and Italians were considered "black" with all the racist hogwash that went with it. (And that was as recently as the 1920s, according to my parents.)

The town looks different from when I was a boy in the 1950's. And I'm delighted.

Nostalgic on Park Avenue

Posted by: NOP at February 2, 2009 4:12 PM

MrsCWB, thanks for your comments. A lot of people in the US love to heap abuse onto other groups of people who least deserve it -- they don't know any better.

Posted by: mopar at February 2, 2009 4:17 PM

Wow. All I can think about what happened in this thread is wow. Winelover...that was truly disgusting. I think you've been hanging out with PropJoe too much.

Posted by: InsertSnappyNameHere at February 2, 2009 4:21 PM

As usual, NOP rolls in with a calm and evenhanded take on things. Thanks. :)

If I had a choice between being an illegal immigrant or living in abject poverty for the rest of my life (among other terrible things) ... I'd choose being an illegal immigrant. So I can hardly fault those who are here illegally for making the same choice.

And for the record, though certain weird holes in our government's (crappy) immigration laws will make her status here questionable for a few weeks between when her job ends and when her permanent residency status comes through, my wife didn't come to the country illegally. So my feelings on illegal immigrants are unrelated to the fact that I married a French girl.

Posted by: cwbuecheler at February 2, 2009 4:23 PM

mopar, don't worry -- unfortunately racism is pretty International, nothing typically US about it...
And cw {sorry for the private message}... Well my dear, I will not be illegal at all, but winelover made it so appealing that I might have exagerated a little bit.

Posted by: MrsCWB at February 2, 2009 4:38 PM

I just hope that Mr CWB isn't taking unfair advantage of your illegal status and forcing you to do things that you wouldn't want to do. Notice i said "unfair" advantage because some of it is certainly fair given the circumstances.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at February 2, 2009 4:44 PM

I'm first generation- my parents were immigrants. They came here out of desperation- as many illegals do. When they renovated- gut rehab- the building next door, the Mexicans worked the hardest and got the least help on the job. No masks during demolition and they had to carry big garbage bins filled with waste on their backs up a ladder to put in the dumpster. I called the boss on it and told him what an a**hole he was but I didn't push it because it would have cost them their jobs.

Posted by: bxgrl at February 2, 2009 4:49 PM

I'm first generation- my parents were immigrants. They came here out of desperation- as many illegals do. When they renovated- gut rehab- the building next door, the Mexicans worked the hardest and got the least help on the job. No masks during demolition and they had to carry big garbage bins filled with waste on their backs up a ladder to put in the dumpster. I called the boss on it and told him what an a**hole he was but I didn't push it because it would have cost them their jobs.

Posted by: bxgrl at February 2, 2009 4:50 PM

Interesting article that just popped up on the NYTimes website:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/03/business/
worldbusiness/03yuan.html?hp

Posted by: 11217 at February 2, 2009 4:50 PM

Oh well DIBS -- all is fair in love, right?
At least, as long as I get to define what falls under "love".

Posted by: MrsCWB at February 2, 2009 4:56 PM

Thanks, CWB.

So your spouse is French? Nice!

And that means, Mrs. CWB, that you're French.

Even nicer.

And thanks, too, CWB, for running a cocktail column on your website. Now that's a contribution to culture (that even the French may appreciate).

NOP

Posted by: NOP at February 2, 2009 5:01 PM

I like the column, NOP, but I like the testing even more!

Posted by: MrsCWB at February 2, 2009 5:05 PM

Mrs. CWB:

Now you're making me nostaglic for the old Biltmore's bar (which was probably before most Brownstoners' time).

Or the Oak Bar, long before the Plaza was condo-ized.

My frat brothers and I would race taxis through Central Park, the last to arrive paying for our rounds!

NOP

Posted by: NOP at February 2, 2009 5:16 PM

NOP - thanks for the kind words and glad you enjoy the drink posts! I love cocktails and I hope someday to own a bar which serves many good ones (including some of my own creations).

And yes, MrsCWB is indeed French.

Hey DIBS - we were in your hood on sunday looking to attend an open-house on Halsey, except the house ... wasn't open (no one there). So we wandered around a bit. What do you think of this: http://www.fillmore.com/view_details.php?WebID=828025

Obviously in need of major work but we could figuratively put like $200-$250k into it right away.

Posted by: cwbuecheler at February 2, 2009 5:26 PM

ive found that bushwick is too expensive for what you get. Landlords are getting greedy and charging high rents in apartment buildings that are very shitty. Also as a young person who would be labeled as a "hipster" by most old people who know the term I find the huge number of spaces devoted to shows and art appealing. However everyone I know and hang out with live around where I live in prospect heights so I take the G to the L if I want to go to bushwick.

these places are why people pay sometimes too much for apartments. Easy access to williamsburg, manhattan and semi-legal loft shows. You can find cheaper apartments in sunset park, kensington, crown heights or parts of flatbush, the areas just lack cool stuff.

Posted by: Santa at February 2, 2009 5:51 PM

The Oak Bar? Racing through Central Park in taxis (let me forget the frat aspect?
How very Gilded Age... That's a compliment :)

Posted by: MrsCWB at February 2, 2009 5:51 PM

I'm gonna stick a toe in this mess...

First, for sure what WL said was way out of line. My wife, btw, is a first gen Colombian, who came here (legally) when she was six years old, with her seven bros and sisters, and not speaking a word of English. Now she's an immigrant success story, with a degree and a six figure income. And me, lol.

Also, I've never read a serious economic study that indicates immigration, legal or illegal, is anything but a plus for the USA.

Nevertheless, what WL was possibly getting at, and elaborated on in a subsequent post should not be overlooked. It should be remembered that African Americans are the only ethnic group brought here against their will. It should also be noted that they have been here in the US longer than most Americans, whose ancestors tended to come from Europe in the 1900s. Yet many still live in appalling conditions with little opportunity. How are those schools in Bushwick?

Unfortunately WL turned it into a them-vs-them contest, when it shouldn't be that way at all. Nevertheless it's that way on the street, with some Latins picking up prevailing prejudices about African Americans without being aware of American history, and African Americans feeling that Latinos are taking their jobs, with many believing that the system turns the other way to illegal immigration to ensure a supply of low-priced, pliable workers.

"When Work Disappears" by William Julius Wilson has some interesting analysis on this subject.


Posted by: denton at February 2, 2009 5:51 PM

Well, Mr. and Mrs. CWB, it's good to know that people still drink in New York.

In the early 70s, a "high ball" (scotch and soda or bourbon and soda) cost all of a buck, which meant the college crowd could get loaded -- fast -- at some pretty good places.

We "conned" at the "Gonk" (the Algonquin Hotel)and tippled at the St. Regis' King Cole, until our raging political arguments got us thrown into the street. No matter, there were McSorley's and Chumley's downtown. (Where cheap beers left us enough for taxis back uptown.)

Now, remember, New York in the 70s was broke, dangerous and, yes, ugly. But it was possible to throw on a dinner jacket and hit the high spots for very little money. (Today's "hipsters" have nothing on my pals and me. Bushwick? A cake walk, compared to finding yourself waking up under a stoop on Avenue D, your cash and dignity gone, as it happened to me.)

I do try to get back to the old haunts when I'm town (Sister Woman and I had a champagne-fueled tea at the St. Regis recently), but somehow it's just not the same.

NOP

Posted by: NOP at February 2, 2009 5:57 PM

NOP, the problem was you had to wear a jacket and tie! I hated that shit! I got tossed from the Oak Room for that once.

But you're right about the '70s. Life wasn't as bad as advertised, you could get a table anywhere, and a lot of shit was free. The museums, for example.

Posted by: denton at February 2, 2009 6:01 PM

now most people get kidnapped by bouncers at expensive clubs NOP. Same shit different way of getting fucked.

Posted by: Santa at February 2, 2009 6:02 PM

Watch out, MrsCWB! Back in the 1790s, French immigrants to the U.S. were considered dangerous subversives (what with that revolution and all), like Jews and Catholics in later years and I suppose Muslims today. The Alien and Sedition Acts of 1798 were passed with French immigrants in mind, and Thomas Jefferson was often accused of being too sympathetic to the French.

Posted by: sixyearsandcounting at February 2, 2009 6:07 PM

Watch out, MrsCWB! Back in the 1790s, French immigrants to the U.S. were considered dangerous subversives (what with that revolution and all), like Jews and Catholics in later years and I suppose Muslims today. The Alien and Sedition Acts of 1798 were passed with French immigrants in mind, and Thomas Jefferson was often accused of being too sympathetic to the French.

Posted by: sixyearsandcounting at February 2, 2009 6:14 PM

cw...do you know where that place is??? That, and the fact that its next to a Fedders would determine resale value but certainly anything would be worth more than $400k if it was finished. I actually like the clapboard houses.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at February 2, 2009 6:14 PM

DIBS - We know it's not on the most lovely block, yes.

Bainbridge is actually really pretty right up to Malcolm X and then ... not so much.

Mostly we just think the idea of buying a boarded up shell and then turning the inside into something lavish is kind of funny. :)

Posted by: cwbuecheler at February 2, 2009 6:18 PM

so where is that one???

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at February 2, 2009 6:25 PM

NOP -

A good highball will run you like 12 bucks depending on your scotch/bourbon choice, these days. Yikes! 1200%+ inflation in 30 years.

I am kinda glad I missed NYC in the 70s (what with only even existing for the last three years of them), but I'm also kinda sorry that I never got to see the city at that point - it's appealing in a scary kind of way.

Posted by: cwbuecheler at February 2, 2009 6:27 PM

Oh, whoops, sorry -- it's on Bainbridge in between Malcolm X and whatever is the next avenue headed deeper into Brooklyn. I found it on Trulia.

Posted by: cwbuecheler at February 2, 2009 6:29 PM

Winelover, I guess you don't eat at restaurants, right? After all, you don't want to support that illegal economy. And who do you think is building all your precious condos? Who is watching your kid? Who cleans your house? (I'm going out on a limb here and guessing it isn't you.)And why did your family come here again? Hopefully, you are not the sum total of all of their striving, because that would be sad.

Anyways, back to what I see as the real meat of this thread before scary real estate tangent guy took off: Philadelphia vs. New York.

As a native of the former, I have to say that the way Philadelphians typically handle having New York on their doorstep is to pretend it doesn't exist. I think there is still some bitterness that despite being twice the size of Boston (I think?) and much closer, Boston gets more New York acknowledgment than its southern cousin.

Don't believe me? Go to Philadelphia. Tell someone you're from New York. Watch them blink once, look away, and change the subject.

Posted by: Heather at February 2, 2009 6:29 PM

You mean, SixYears, the way John Kerry was accused of being "French"?

Yes, Denton, I remember when the museums -- and Central Park Zoo -- were free.

When I was a kid, New York was my brother's and my living room, and for the price of bus or subway fare (15 cents!), we could visit most anywhere.

No doubt about it, for all its gloss, the city's civic life has coarsened, especially for children.

Not too long ago, I watched three kids, about 13- or 14- years old, walk into the Metropolitan Museum. (By their dress and color, they didn't look like Upper East Siders.) They saw the "voluntary" contribution sign, turned on their heels, and walked out. (I was looking down over the balcony at the time, too far to steer them back.)

To this day I wonder if we lost an artist or art historian that very moment.

NOP

Posted by: NOP at February 2, 2009 6:31 PM

NOP....If I moved to NYC after I got out of business school in 1980 I'd be dead now. Serious.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at February 2, 2009 6:32 PM

DaveinBedStuy:

As we'd say in our cups around the Chapter Room, that's deep.

Most of us never got in any real danger -- until we moved to Cambridge for graduate school where:

A girlfriend was sexually assaulted.

Most of our apartments were burglarized (sometimes while we slept).

And some punks tried to set me on fire on the "T"!

We'd learned to read the danger signals in New York, but Boston/Cambridge was another world.

An unexpected menace: Raging, working-class Irish American kids from Southie, looking to roll any student they could.

NOP

Posted by: NOP at February 2, 2009 6:46 PM

"No doubt about it, for all its gloss, the city's civic life has coarsened, especially for children."

NOP;

I'll have to strongly disagree with you on that one. I think I'm a bit younger than you - I grew up in NYC in the 60's and 70's. My memories are of dilapidated parks that were not fit for kids' play, of ethnic tensions so thick you could cut them with a knife and just a general feeling that things were not well. I'm sure that the old days had their merits, but I'll take present day NYC any day of the week.

Posted by: benson at February 2, 2009 7:54 PM

MM this is where we cannot disagree more with you:
"To have a gallery in Chinatown and not mention the area's rich ethnic history is to deny its importance, in my opinion" Deny its importance?? Even when the crux of the discussion is about art and the gallery? Sorry MM but we will not draw such an inference (completely out of thin air)but hey people have different life experiences on which we all base our understanding and interactions. Like we stated earlier wish all humanity was one race / color...dommage!
Now since everyone is talking about it good old pdt will also chime in and say we are a 1st generation immigrant who came here with zilch, nada, zip, except for hope and courage....Ah that audacity! We understand and deeply appreciate the contribution of Latinos and Mexicans to this society and are quite sure the economy of this country will collapse to disrepair if it weren't for illegal aliens especially Latino aliens. The overwhelming majority of Americans are NOT willing to do any of the jobs these hardworking and polite Latinos do so that right-wing political satire of illegals taking American jobs is NOT entirely true.
Winelover who do you think washes your plates in restaurants, plant & pick your fruits and vegetables in California, drive cabs in Brooklyn, perform cheap construction labor, clean your hospitals, and all with grace and politeness? We must be thanking these people and don't think for one second these folks don't pay taxes...

DIBS we also have Mexican and other Latino "illegal alien" friends...nicest people you ever met.

Posted by: pierre de taille at February 2, 2009 8:12 PM

yes pierre.....wonderful families

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at February 2, 2009 8:18 PM

I have *never* had a Mexican cab driver. Never. Maybe one guy once who might have been second-generation Puerto Rican. Most of the drivers I get are Indian or Arab/Muslim/Pakistani/Egyptian. Now why is that?

The Puerto Rican guy said the Mexicans are great tippers. Three or four will share a cab home from work late at night.

cw, Bainbridge is quite a nice street, but FYI, between Ralph and Patchen is a public housing project. But the house is also just a block from Stuyvesant Heights, right Dave?

Posted by: mopar at February 2, 2009 10:06 PM

"Don't believe me? Go to Philadelphia. Tell someone you're from New York. Watch them blink once, look away, and change the subject."


So interesting! I've been to Philly maybe 20-30 times over the past 5 years as a really great friend was living there up until recently (she's from here though). I really got to know the city a bit and came to really enjoy center city.

The one thing my friend and I always commented on though was that whenever we went out, all we had to do was say New York and we had 10 new best friends. It happened every single time. The people we met gave us so much attention simply because of our NYC connection, we always considered it strange, if not endearing.

You would have thought we were freakin celebrities the way some of them acted around us. Very nice people though. Nothing but good vibes for Center City, although things seem to be getting a little more depressed there lately and crime seems to have spiked. My friend is back in NYC, so I haven't gone down in the past 6 months, but I'm looking forward to a weekend trip soon.

Posted by: 11217 at February 2, 2009 10:08 PM

Mopar;

You are right - Mexicans don't go in for car service. Pierre was just engaging in some patronizing politically-correct BS. Hey, don't you know that his best friends are latinos? Please.

Posted by: benson at February 2, 2009 10:37 PM

bushwick is where poor people move who can't afford manhattan and some parts of brooklyn anymore. seriously, it's nothing more than that. it's a ghetto. dont most people want to move OUT of the ghetto? plus people who think they are edgey in 2009 nyc are just totally beyond lame. who the hell really wants to see some self-absorbed performance art piece by a Madison and McKenzie from bumblef*ck louisiana? i sure dont. they have nothing relevant to add to nyc.

*r*

Posted by: PitbullNYC at February 2, 2009 10:42 PM

you know that dumb band Talking Heads.

those stupid fucks lived in the ghetto and were some art school idiots from Rhode Island and did nothing to help anyone and made absolute shitte music.

Posted by: Santa at February 2, 2009 11:08 PM

"Here's your ticket pack your bag: time for jumpin' overboard..."

Posted by: SnarkSlope at February 2, 2009 11:30 PM

Unfortunately, Pierre, we don't live in a color blind or beige world. As you well know, we come in all different flavors and colors. This is a great thing, and makes us all interesting. It is also value neutral, in of itself. It's only when we as societies, make one flavor or color superior to the others that we get in trouble. Part of who you are is French, at least that's your persona here. Your Gallic heritage helps shape you, and contributes to who you are. To say you were just some guy named Peter would be to deny you a part of your self.

All I am saying is that neighborhoods also have identities. To me, it is the height of political correct blandness to ignore what is all around you, in order to focus on whatever you are doing. If I tell you my gallery is in Harlem, all that says is that it is somewhere within the established boundaries of that neighborhood. It has no inherent value judgement about the people in the neighborhood,or the neighborhood itself. If you, as a listener, make something, either good or bad, out of that, that's on you. If I tell someone the address is on 145th and St. Nicholas, and leave out the fact that it is smack in the middle of Harlem, that says more about me. What's wrong with saying Harlem? Is my omission because I am ashamed of Harlem, think you won't show up because it is in Harlem, or am so evolved that I don't notice it's Harlem? I don't think that many people are so evolved.

There is nothing wrong with mentioning a neighborhood, or a person's ethnicity or heritage. You highlight your posts almost all the time, by throwing in French phrases, some of which are incomprehensible to non-French speaking readers. Some may find that terribly pretentious, others intriguing, others may have no opinion at all. Yet that establishes your identity to the Brownstone community, ne'st pas? That's all I'm talking about.

Posted by: Montrose Morris at February 3, 2009 12:14 AM

Unfortunately, Pierre, we don't live in a color blind or beige world. As you well know, we come in all different flavors and colors. This is a great thing, and makes us all interesting. It is also value neutral, in of itself. It's only when we as societies, make one flavor or color superior to the others that we get in trouble. Part of who you are is French, at least that's your persona here. Your Gallic heritage helps shape you, and contributes to who you are. To say you were just some guy named Peter would be to deny you a part of your self.

All I am saying is that neighborhoods also have identities. To me, it is the height of political correct blandness to ignore what is all around you, in order to focus on whatever you are doing. If I tell you my gallery is in Harlem, all that says is that it is somewhere within the established boundaries of that neighborhood. It has no inherent value judgement about the people in the neighborhood,or the neighborhood itself. If you, as a listener, make something, either good or bad, out of that, that's on you. If I tell someone the address is on 145th and St. Nicholas, and leave out the fact that it is smack in the middle of Harlem, that says more about me. What's wrong with saying Harlem? Is my omission because I am ashamed of Harlem, think you won't show up because it is in Harlem, or am so evolved that I don't notice it's Harlem? I don't think that many people are so evolved.

There is nothing wrong with mentioning a neighborhood, or a person's ethnicity or heritage. You highlight your posts almost all the time, by throwing in French phrases, some of which are incomprehensible to non-French speaking readers. Some may find that terribly pretentious, others intriguing, others may have no opinion at all. Yet that establishes your identity to the Brownstone community, ne'st pas? That's all I'm talking about.

Posted by: Montrose Morris at February 3, 2009 12:14 AM

Sorry for the double post, and should have been n'est pas. Time to go to sleep.

Posted by: Montrose Morris at February 3, 2009 12:26 AM

Wow - really sorry I missed this today. Lots of nonsense posted. Sounds like more then a few of you had a case of the Mondays!!

Posted by: dirty_hipster at February 3, 2009 12:38 AM

Lots of nonsense every day, dirty hipster

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at February 3, 2009 8:18 AM

hey wine lover,i think u need a big black dick in ur mouth to shut ur ignorant ass up

Posted by: buckfast at February 3, 2009 2:09 PM

I would go insane living in Park Slope, Rob, but I don't go around insulting others who enjoy it. Though I would like to buy fresh wild salmon for $10 a pound at the Park Slope food coop.

Posted by: mopar at February 3, 2009 10:59 PM

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