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January 7, 2009

Supreme Court Weighs House of Detention Re-Opening

Following a 75-person rally (that included Comptroller Thompson, Senator Adams and Council Member James and Yassky) on the front steps of the State Supreme Court building yesterday morning, Justice Sylvia Hinds-Radix began hearing arguments from the City and from the community group called Stop BHOD which had filed a lawsuit arguing that the city acted improperly by failing to alert the public about the reopening and planned expansion of the facility and not submitting its plan for an environmental impact analysis. According to the Brooklyn Eagle, The argument seemed to boil down to whether or not the city had technically closed the jail back in 2003, and thus would have to re-open it, or whether it had continued to operate it, albeit in a diminished capacity. “This is a closed prison,” argued Randy Mastro on behalf of Stop BHOD. “Five years later, you have a transformed neighborhood.” Countered the corporation counsel: “There is a jail in Downtown Brooklyn. It exists. It has existed for 50 years. We need it.” Both sides have until February 11 to submit additional documents to the court; in the meantime, the city will not house additional overnight prisoners in the facility.
Judge Hears Arguments For and Against ‘Reopening’ of Jail [Brooklyn Eagle]
Closing Bell: HOD Rally Coming Next Week [Brownstoner] GMAP
Inside the Brooklyn House of Detention [Brownstoner]
Not Enough Cash for the HOD [Brownstoner]
HOD Re-Opens for Business [Brownstoner]
Saying No to House of D [Brownstoner]

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Comments

“This is a closed prison,” argued Randy Mastro on behalf of Stop BHOD. “Five years later, you have a transformed neighborhood.”

WHAT A CROCK. When I moved from Schermerhorn St.- 1 1/2 blocks away from the HOD in 2003, the neighborhood was far along in its transformation- which had begun way back in the 80's when formerly boarded up buildings like 96 Schermerhorn began opening as luxury condos.

The idea that the HOD "held back" the neighborhood is the most amazing piece of dreck I've heard in a long time. I do know- I lived there over 20 years- never ever did the HOD cause a problem. this isn't about security or safety or neighborhood concern. This is about the refined aesthetics of people who deem themselves so important to downtown Brooklyn that the entire world must stop and kiss their gentrified butts.

I live in a neighborhood that has way too much "social services" dumped on it. Most of it without the heavy monitoring and supervision the HOD gets. Bklyn Hgts/Cobble Hill people should just grow up and deal with it. Other neighborhoods deal with far worse and with far less complaint.

Posted by: bxgrl at January 7, 2009 9:27 AM

bxgrl -- We must have been neighbors. It is only the new people -- like 53 Boerum, the Smith, and the new retail on Atlantic that are really upset. We who have lived there no that it has been a non-issue for 25 years. Let it open, just don't expand it. The biggest issue for retail on Atlantic is that it is wide and busy -- hard to cross from one side to another for causal shopping/dining (unlike Smith).

Posted by: BH76 at January 7, 2009 9:47 AM

I think if they just name it " Brooklyn House of Detention, Boerum Hill 'North' " everything will be just fine. It might even increase your property value!

Posted by: Prodigal_Son at January 7, 2009 9:51 AM

LIke I've stated before...When I moved to brooklyn and first started shopping and eating in this neighborhood, I walked by this place many times and never even knew what it was.

These BoCoCaNo people have way too much time on their hands and are a bunch of namby pambies.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at January 7, 2009 9:54 AM

Agreed, this thing has not been correlated to changes in the neighborhood.

Posted by: jawbreaker at January 7, 2009 9:56 AM

I've also lived in Boerum Hill for over 20 years, including a stint in the early 80s on State St. between Hoyt + Bond. I disagree that HOD didn't have an impact on the neighborhood. Aside from the fact that local residents have little use for all the bail bond offices that serve the HOD (I'd prefer some other retail use) I don't miss the post visiting hour conversations that people which were conducted by yelling up to their loved ones at all hours.

Posted by: Boerum Hill at January 7, 2009 10:04 AM

Whining Highfalutin Bourgeoisie Townhouse / Condo / Co-op Owners.

Posted by: bayridgegirl at January 7, 2009 10:05 AM

I think we would be hearing a different tune on this thread if the HOD was located nearer the sacred precincts (Clinton Hill, Park Slope, Fort Greene). I think it is great that the community is pushing back. Who knows what the corrections department has in mind here. They are lying to the community or perhaps they are clueless themselves as to how to re-activate a 1950's era dinosaur of a prison. I think they are lying through their teeth and hope that the lawsuit will at least get some of the real issues out in the open.

Posted by: sam at January 7, 2009 10:06 AM

Dear bxgrl,
I bought a house in this neighborhood 20 years ago and unlike you I stayed.While the jail's presence was not a deal breaker for me,that doesn't mean i wouldn't like to see it gone.Anyone who really knows this neighborhood knows that the jail has always divided Atlantic Ave into two zones to the detriment the Boerum Hill side.Anyone who lived through those years would remember how many bail bondsmen set up shop along Atlanic and the negitive effect they had on the area's image and development.I guess we'll have twice as many under the city's new plan.And more girlfriends catcalling up from the street-and more chain gangs unloaded on State st-and more crime.Welcome to Brooklyn tourists!
By the way I doubt that whatever neighborhood you now live in has been more impacted by social services than downtown Brooklyn.

Posted by: crafty at January 7, 2009 10:08 AM

BH76- I used to live at 82 Schermerhorn in the white townhouse closest to Court. I loved the area but my apartment was so tiny- even tho' it was a 2 bedroom. Postage stamp sized rooms, ground floor and dark as a tunnel. it used to be really dicey over there but once 96 opened, things really started changing on the block.

I'd still be there- my landlady was a sweetheart- but when my friend bought a house in CHN and offered me a floor thru, I couldn't resist.

Posted by: bxgrl at January 7, 2009 10:08 AM

God I love New York. Bring back the jail!

Posted by: slopenick at January 7, 2009 10:10 AM

crafty- Anyone who lived in the neighborhood, and as close as I did to the HOD knows the HOD had little to no impact on the neighborhood. (1980-end of 2003 qualifies me to be an expert on the changes in the area, don't you think?)the marshalls, storefront lawyers, etc. were not the problem- they were stable businesses in the neighborhood, and if you judge them by the age of the courthouse you'd know they had been there for many many years. The porn theater (now thankfully gone), Pandora books, and other older, less...er... family neighborhood businesses did not depend on the jail for their livelihood, but on residents.

The jail was pretty much ignored - Boerum Place itself was the dividing line- it had nothing to do with the jail. It's a huge, wide and dangerous street to cross because of traffic. Boerum Hill seems to have done fine despite it. So I reiterate- the jail was not the problem.

And do a little research about City social services in Crown Heights. It's been a dumping ground- one reason why we're fighting the City's attempt to dump a city-wide intake center in the Bedford Armory. It's very different from the "problems" downtown Brooklyn has. You have no idea.

Posted by: bxgrl at January 7, 2009 10:29 AM

The jail needs to be by the courthouse. Duh. I am starting to develop a strong bias against NIMBY urban utopias.

Posted by: Heather at January 7, 2009 10:40 AM

I'm with bxgirl...been in Boerum Hill for over 20 years, the "South" side of Boerum Hill. Anyone who has lived here as long as I have knows that the BHOD has not brought crime to the area, not in 89, 99 or 09. Is it ugly and an eyesore? Sure. Has it brought crime to the area. Only the criminals who live in it.

Posted by: Prodigal_Son at January 7, 2009 10:43 AM

I'm a life-long Brooklynite who recently moved to Boerum Hill after living in Carroll Gardens and Park Slope.

After witnessing the people opposed to the jail handing out material - much of the information in the material being incorrect or taken out of context - I have to say this not only smacks of nimbyism, it also has a tinge of bigotry and racism attached to it. The vast majority of the people speaking out against the jail are white. They hurl disparaging remarks at the people who would be housed in Brooklyn house, detainees that would be mostly black and hispanic. Those suspects are often victims of a racist criminal justice system that arrests a disproportionate number if blacks and hispanics every year.

The truth is, the average stay of someone in Brooklyn House would be what it was before the jail "closed" which was 48 to 72 hours. These are people who are awaiting arraignment or trial and we should be considering innocent until proven guilty. Take a look at the city's statistics and you will find that charges are dropped or reduced in close to 50% of their cases. Their lives are disrupted and their freedom is taken away when very often, their infractions can be addressed through fines and desk appearance tickets rather than having to go through the system. It's not uncommon for judges to rule that these suspects were wrongfully arrested. They shouldn't be in the system in the first place.

Having these people housed for 2 to 3 days on Rikers Island creates a tremendous, unnecessary hardship for their families. People who have very little resources and who are living at or below the poverty line must trek to Rikers Island from all over Brooklyn to deal with their relative's temporary incarceration. To do so, they must expend money and time that they don't have. If these suspects are housed at Brooklyn House, it becomes much easier for their families to visit them and deal with their needs. But the folks speaking out against the jail don't want to see those poor, disadvantage, minority individuals walking the streets around their high-priced condos and town houses.

The cost of housing these individuals on Riker's Island and the transportation to and from the isolated facility is much greater than it would cost to house them at Brooklyn House. As a taxpayer, one who lives just a few blocks away from the downtown Brooklyn jail, I want the facility reopened to save the city money. It would also mean more uniformed peace officers on our local streets. Their visible presence would make the neighborhood safer.

Furthermore, the jail was there way before the majority of the people opposed to its re-openning moved into the neighborhood. You knew it was there and there was always a possibility that the jail could be pressed back into service. Your arguments are moot.

Could that property have a more beneficial use for the neighborhood? Absolutely! But jails are a necessary component of our society and they have to go somewhere. We all must do our part in accepting these and other social services into our communities so they are not concentrated in a few locations or in isolated areas out of view of society.

The idea that the jail divides two sides of Atlantic Avenue is ridiculous. There's an entire downtown region and a major 6 lane avenue that divide the two neighborhoods of Brooklyn Heights and Boerum Hill. Removing the jail would do nothing to bring the two neighborhoods closer together.

Posted by: BrooklynSteve at January 7, 2009 10:48 AM

I'm a life-long Brooklynite who recently moved to Boerum Hill after living in Carroll Gardens and Park Slope.

Posted by: BrooklynSteve at January 7, 2009 10:48 AM

bravo bxgrl. I think we need to start our own informational website to counteract the crap being put out by the nimby folks.

Posted by: BrooklynSteve at January 7, 2009 10:53 AM

Some of these comments are mystifying to me. When this jail was last open, the surrounding neighborhood was completely different. It was before the renaissance of Smith Street, before the construction of new residential buildings on Court Street, State Street and Atlantic Avenue. It was a different time and scene altogether. If you don't see how radically the area has changed over the past fifteen years, you memory is very short. I think the HOD should be demolished and a new building built incorporating a smaller HOD for inmates whose trials are ongoing or who otherwise need to be near the courts (if you are serving a five year sentence you don't need to be near the courts). The balance of the building, facing Atlantic Ave, can be mixed use residential/commercial. The existing building is an eyesore and a relic. I doubt very much it could ever be used again as a functioning prison. The cell layout is a weird design that was abandoned by Corretion Departments throughout the country fifty years ago.

Posted by: sam at January 7, 2009 10:57 AM

That was well-said, Brooklyn Steve.

Hey, perhaps the nay-sayers should organize a protest, get arrested, and then come to appreciate the convenience of a centrally located holding facility!

Posted by: Heather at January 7, 2009 11:05 AM

Also agreed here from someone who has lived close enough for 30 years that this is much ado about nothing.
Sure, in a perfect world would have no bail bondsmen (just more spas and cutesy shops) , no jail and no crimimal court buildings (which is across from the jail - which is bigger reason for the bondsman).
I understand that some of these new people in the condos that came after HOD fell into disuse worried over the unknown - but it really is non-issue (except of course for parking because of all the city parking permits for employees).

Posted by: Petebklyn at January 7, 2009 11:05 AM

Sam -- The neighborhood may have been different for you but not for those of us who have lived there for 25+ years. There are still courts and it is still right in the middle of downtown Brooklyn! People moved here, opened businesses over the past 25 years -- not just the past 5 -- because it was cheaper becasue of what it was -- now they want to change it completely -- pretend it's Madison Avenue. Well it's not, never was never will be. We live here and we are fine with it. All the protests are just from people who thought they deserve to be making more money on their newly acquired real estate in the area.

Posted by: BH76 at January 7, 2009 11:06 AM

The BHOD closed in 2003. I was still living on Schermerhorn at that time and Smith St. already had a renaissance, and the new residential building construction was already underway, long before it closed all of that was happening. B&N was up, as was the theater, the BC dorm was under construction, the church across the street from me was sold and slated for demolition, the Bd. of Ed. building had been closed down and sold to 12 Trees, Danny was trying to sell his building with the Chinese restaurant, stores had been upscaled (the corner Spanish deli was gone and a hi end restaurant opened) and I could go on and on about the upscaling of the neighborhood that was going on long before the BHOD was closed.

Yes- it is a butt ugly building. But anyone who claims the BHOD will damage the neighborhood or undo its inexorable march into unaffordability for the middle class really, has no reality leg to stand on. The area around the BHOD has long been one of the most desirable areas of Brooklyn, and probably the most expensive- with Park Slope- in Brooklyn. that happened long before the BHOD was closed down. So again- NIMBYS- a little perspective, and truth.

Posted by: bxgrl at January 7, 2009 11:16 AM

I'll just have to continue to disagree with BrooklynSteve and bxgrl about the historical role the HOD and it's satellites of bail bondsmen has had on creating the "two Atlantic Avenues" syndrome.It is worth noting the enormous strides that the Boerum hill side has made during the closure.Also remember that Boeurum place is reduced down to one lane across the street from the jail,making it very easy to cross.People always stopped there because of the forbidding atmosphere.
Bkgrl is correct that the bail bondsmen were stable businesses
as long as the jail was operating,but they hardly the kind that we locals-whether new or long term residents such as myself- would like to see return.

Posted by: crafty at January 7, 2009 11:18 AM

Sam, you should do a some exploring of the facts and the repercussions of your ideas before posting something like that. Your proposal would be infinitely more costly to our city's budget then the retro-fitting of the existing facility.

Actually, I know for a fact that much of the work done inside Brooklyn HOD in the early part of this decade brought it up to federal standards. I don't know why there is this notion that the building doesn't meet current nationally accepted standards for housing inmates. The renovations were done to the national standards agreed to by corrections departments across the country. In fact, because of it's layout, they are actually able to watch more inmates with fewer guards at Brooklyn House then they are at many of the jail buildings on Riker's Island, yet another cost savings.

Furthermore, this notion that the property is better suited for a mixed use commercial/residential building is ridiculous. I mean have you noticed how difficult a time developers are having selling apartments right now in the current market? Brooklyn is saturated with new condos/coops and the availability far exceeds the demand right now. As for the commercial space, haven't you noticed all the new commercial space along Atlantic Avenue that has remained empty for 2 or 3 years now? Developers have been unable to find tennants for these commercial spaces on a desirable avenue despite their high-profile locations. The last thing we need is more street level commercial space on Atlantic Avenue.

Also, people serving five year sentences wouldn't be housed in Brooklyn House. Once someone is convicted of a crime and they are sentenced to an extended stay behind bars, they must serve their prison term in a state facility. Brooklyn House is for people awaiting trial, not convicts.

I'm also not clear what the physical changes in the surrounding neighborhoods have to do with the jail and why that means it should be torn down? I can think of lots of buildings on Atlantic Avenue that don't look good. Just because real estate values have increased dramatically in the last 15 years and a new class of resident has moved into the neighborhood over that time, does that mean that all those older, unappealing buildings should be torn down? And where do you propose we put all the social services housed in those buildings?

Posted by: BrooklynSteve at January 7, 2009 11:21 AM

Its funny how Maestro and this group of NIMBYs miss the best and most legitimate argument. It isnt the reopening of the jail that is objectionable - as many have said, its been there for decades without any issue. The problem is the city is planning (which means it will be alot more) to spend HALF A BILLION DOLLARS to "reopen the jail."
This despite the fact that less than 5yrs ago they spent $75M fixing up the jail and most importantly - The jail WONT SAVE MUCH ON TRANSPORT COSTS.

The new courthouse is 3blocks away - you would still have to bus the defendants to the courthouse which defeats the sole reason for having a jail close to the courthouse (it is the administration of moving prisoners by bus that costs so much not the diesel fuel).
Frankly they should be exploring moving the jail to the unused MTA building - then you could likely walk the prisoners underground to the new courthouse.

It is beyond insane for the city to spend thismuch money on a less than ideal facility that is hardly needed - you have to ask - who has the contracts for all this renovation work.

It is amusing to me however that Maestro and Stop BHOD miss the one legitimate argument they have in an effort to obtain their entire goal (no jail ever) rather then fighting with powerful and legitimate arguments that MAY result in the jail being reopened as is. - its almost...."greedy"

Posted by: fsrg at January 7, 2009 11:26 AM

If the jail is up to federal standards why haven't they started using it yet? What are they waiting for? National hug an inmate day?
You can write irrational postings but no one has to believe them.

Posted by: sam at January 7, 2009 11:27 AM

The bail bondsmen are still around, just over on Livingston and eleswhere. It's not the jail that brings the bondsmen, it's the court house where people have to apply for bail.

Posted by: Boerumresident at January 7, 2009 11:30 AM

Crafty, the bailbonds businesses are there because of Brooklyn Criminal Court, not the jail. Several have remained open even though the jail is not being used. Some bailbonds businesses have closed because of rising rents, not because of the mothballed jail.

fsrg, tha's a very interesting proposal, re: converting the MTA building on Jay Street into a new jail directly connecting to the courthouse. However, isn't the current Brooklyn Criminal Court building staying open? I have heard of no plans to close it. Maybe I'm wrong.

But one thing is clear... with the creation of so many new residential units in the surrounding area, we definitely need new schools. The community would be better served if either property was converted into a community school structure containing an elementary, middle and high school under one roof.

Posted by: BrooklynSteve at January 7, 2009 11:32 AM

BrooklynSteve at January 7, 2009 10:48 AM

The What salutes you BrooklynSteve, you smacked right out of the park! Thank you so much

The What

Someday this war is gonna end...

Posted by: Return of The What at January 7, 2009 11:39 AM

It's one lane on the Other side of atlantic- because they never widened that part of the street. Boerum was always meant to end at Atlantic-had they continued across Atlantic, cobble Hill and Carroll gardens would not exist. This has nothing to do with the BHOD and everything to do with traffic.

Frankly, what's the big deal about bail bondsmen? They aren't criminals, they're businesses. Ok- they weren't starbucks, if that's your problem, but the courthouses in downtown Brooklyn aren't going anywhere, and they (or the BHOD)have not stopped the neighborhoods around the BHOD from becoming the most desirable area of Brooklyn.

Agree, brooklynsteve. If the past is any indication, those social services will be dumped into neighborhoods like mine (Crown Heights) which already have more than their fair share.

Posted by: bxgrl at January 7, 2009 11:46 AM

For the record, not ALL newer residents are vehemently opposed to the jail re-opening. I live a few blocks away (for the last 2 years), and I don't really care. However, I don't think it's worth spending that much money on the place. So, all things considered equal, I AM opposed, but not in a "protesting" sorta way. But, if any of that money is allocated towards make the cells "nicer", then I am really opposed to that.

Posted by: broadwayron at January 7, 2009 11:49 AM

I wouldn't want them to make the cells into luxury condos but bear in mind, the BHOD is a holding center, not a jail for convicted criminals. They are still, under the law, innocent. So it shouldn't be Gitmo on Atlantic- which is inhuman.

Posted by: bxgrl at January 7, 2009 12:27 PM

BrklynSteve -

The old Brooklyn Criminal Court is still open but it is only really utilized for Arraignments (where they set bail after you are arrested). Such defendants are generally trasported by the precincts directly to the Courthouse and then ONLY if they cant make bail do they go to the jail.

So yes in that narrow sense (being trasported from arragnments to jail) the current location works BUT the average defendant will make dozens of trips to the courthouse after that and given the new location of Criminal Court (up Jay St) - they will have to be bussed at great expense.

Frankly the old criminal court is another boondogle - it is a gorgeous building being totally underutilized (arraignments is only the 1st fl) - and it costs a fortune to maintain. The city should be selling this building as well.

It is sad that we could put a sizable dent in next years deficits simply by selling 3 buildings that are essentially vacant or hardly used (MTA building on Jay, BHOD and Crimnal Court)- and the City doesnt have the will.

Posted by: fsrg at January 7, 2009 12:35 PM

bxgrl -for $440+M you likely could put all the defendants up at the Four Seasons and have money left over for the minibar.

Posted by: fsrg at January 7, 2009 12:36 PM

Hmmm.... I may have to commit a crime. Where's the bar??

fsrq- wouldn't it cost that much to renovate the vacant MTA building, anyway? I'm not opposed to putting the HOD in another building if it's more cost effective. I'm just grousing at the misinformation and whining the NIMBYs are tossing around, as if reopening the BHOD will destroy the neighborhood and put it back to the stone age. Like I said- I lived over there for @ 23 years, a block and a half away- the BHOD was not the problem.

Posted by: bxgrl at January 7, 2009 12:48 PM

It would likely cost more to do the MTA building as a jail - and I am not necessarily even advocating it (who could without really seeing the numbers) - but at least doing so COULD possibly be justified by saving significant money on transport costs (assuming you could utilize underground walkways) as well as being next to the KCDAs office and away from residential housing.

The point is that the D of Corrections spent 75M to upgrade the jail and then immediately mothballed it - which means to me that the burden of proof should be on DOC to 1. justify its reopening 2. that they must offer a very powerful case why the jail needs to be expanded to the tune of $440M when it is currently empty.

I suspect that such a case (for expansion) can not really be made and that the NIMBY folks would be far more successful if they attacked on this front rather than trying to keep the current jail from ever reopening.

Posted by: fsrg at January 7, 2009 1:07 PM

That certainly makes sense, but if anything they'll add that to their list of supposed grievances. Don't know why it pisses me off so much- I guess because they make it seem like the neighborhood was a hellhole until they moved in and made it all better. Talk about delusional.

Posted by: bxgrl at January 7, 2009 1:16 PM

one cannot convert an office building into a jail. jails are pretty high-tech these days, they have to be built from scratch following very precise specifications. The old HOD is hopelessly obsolete. They have wasted millions trying to update it but as we all can see, it is not remotely usable except for holding a dozen or so people in the base portion. The argument is not really about nimbyism it is about the rational planning of a detention facility. I remain convinced that a new jail is necessary whether at this site or another. They cannot merely keep this old jail and try to reuse it. The cells are arranged in a split-level configuration that correction officers and their union simply will not tolerate. It is time to let go of the old eyesore and plan something better for the future. The lawsuit will hopefully be a catalyst in figuring a way through the bureaucratic mess that has lead to this stalemate.
One final thing, I so disagree with bxgirl today. this area was a pit fifteen years ago. There is no comparison to today. It has improved enormously and I think the new residents and businesses have made that possible. Why take that accomplishment away from them? Why the hate for the locals?

Posted by: sam at January 7, 2009 2:11 PM

"they have wasted millions trying to update it but as we all can see, it is not remotely usable except for holding a dozen or so people in the base portion."

and you base this conclusion on what evidence??????????

Posted by: fsrg at January 7, 2009 2:29 PM

The BKHD has never been technically closed. They stopped housing inmates overnight but it has remained open to receive inmates coming from Rikers Island for court dates. They sallyport on the old criminal court building does not accomodate the Correction Department buses and hasn't been able to for over 25 years. Therefore the inmates are unloaded at the BKHD and then walked into the criminal court building through the undrground tunnel. If the BKHD is opened to full capacity, it would probably house inmates post-arraignment/pre-bail and since arraignments are still held in the old criminal court building, it would make sense to house them there. The new building on Jay Street is not connected to the BKHD but the BKHD is a much shorter trip than the trip from Rikers Island. Rikers has 10 jails 5 of which are falling apart. The BKHD in its current state is in better condition than most of the jails on Rikers and better suited to meet the needs of an inmate population.

Just because a neighborhood has "improved" doesn't mean that anthing that the improvers deem obselete should be banished to a not so improved neighborhood.

Posted by: Chaka at January 7, 2009 2:32 PM

Thanks BrooklynSteve and Bx Girl and Chaka for talking sense. I lived in the Heights from 1980 to 1990 or so and the jail was never an issue. And the Heights was just as gentrified then as it is now. It would be ridiculous to try and build a new jail somewhere, who would accept it?

It well behooves the city to keep an extra jail on hand. You never know what the future will bring. The murder rate is up and things can get worse just as fast as they got better. What happens if there's a serious insurrection? Nothing wrong with being prepared.

Posted by: denton at January 7, 2009 3:39 PM

sam- as I said- I lived over there for 23 years. It was no hellhole. It's filled now with new buildings, yes but they weren't built to improve the neighborhood, they were built because the neighborhood was already desirable. It may not have been up to your aesthetic standards, but it wasn't a "pit." It was a typical big road intersection, gas stations, parking lots, old buildings. Surrounded by beautiful brownstone neighborhoods that kept appreciating in value. And lets not forget all the less than upscale businesses that were on Court St. for years, making money and providing loads of area amenities. Maybe not upscale enough for you, but more than adequate. Court St. was never the disney version of a neighborhood street.

I don't hate the locals. I just resent the newbies thinking the improvements to the area began when they came in, when in fact it was the efforts of long time residents who brought the neighborhood up. I lived through it- I lived through having a boarded up, drug dealer infested building on my block to watching beautiful old churches torn down to put up a p.o.s. condo building, and seeing the porn theater become a B & N. Atlantic/Boerum is a huge, scary, noisy street to cross-and had long been commercial/civic in nature. and that was the main reason it took so long to build residential there.

What you're looking at over the last 5 years is the jump on the bandwagon syndrome, not the build the new frontier syndrome. Chaka is right. If the city caves in to StopBHOD it will be a struggling neighborhood like Crown Heights or Bed-Stuy that will be getting stuck with a new jail.Just like they are trying to stick a citywide intake center in the Bedford Armory.

Disagree all you want but the fact is those new residents in all the new buildings that have gone up in the last 5-6 years are not responsible for the improvements, they moved there because of them.

Posted by: bxgrl at January 7, 2009 3:57 PM

I think you all should chill. This jail is not going to be relocated to Crown Heights or any other residential community. In fact, I think it should stay where it is, but in a new, usable guise that respects the streetlife along Atlantic Avenue and that does not act like a giant pedestrian obstacle in one of brownstone brooklyn's main east-west arteries. No one is saying the jail should be located in another residential neighborhood. It could be moved to another spot Downtown perhaps, like the site of the TA building on Jay, but again, it would need to blend in the way modern urban detention centers do. Geez, this thread is making me grumpy. The current facility is of use to no one, including corrections. if it were suitable, it would have been put to use by now. The existing building needs to be replaced by a modern facility. A better facility. We deserve it. Brooklyn is changing for the better. Corrections has mis-spent so much money already that now I think it is stuck with this dinosaur, that it can't use, but is afraid to admit it.

Posted by: sam at January 7, 2009 4:31 PM

Well I certainly agree with you on that (in hopes of making you less grumpy.)Although if the city does decide to keep it closed and set up a new jail, I still say they'll put it in one of the poorer neighborhoods. Brooklyn deserves better, I agree.

Posted by: bxgrl at January 7, 2009 4:57 PM

Sam:
"The current facility is of use to no one, including corrections. if it were suitable, it would have been put to use by now."

And what makes you think that????

Sam you make alot of statments with no back up.

Posted by: fsrg at January 7, 2009 5:25 PM

fsrq, I am making a very self-evident point, which you are obviously missing. If the HOD were usable, it would be in use today. Corrections does not need any special permits to open up the existing facility, the fact they have chosen not to do so speaks volumes.
The community does not want to see the size of the jail increased, and I think that is understandable, they will fight hard, very hard to prevent a doubling in size.
Such a change would need to go through the usual public reviews. You and bxgirl can show up at the those meetings and say that Boerum Hill is filled with pretentious bourgeoise scum and that they deserve their just desserts in the form of a new jail twice the size of the old one.

Posted by: sam at January 7, 2009 7:21 PM

The fact that the jail was closed speaks volumes to the excellent job that the NYPD did in keeping crime at a minimum. The inmate population was at its lowest and steadily declining in the past few years but the current financial climate, this no doubt will change. In the advent of Hurricane Katrina, the federal government forced the Department to evaluate its evacuation plan. When they did they realized that they could not possibly evacuate all of the inmates and staff from the island in the event of a hurricane or other natural disaster. So this forced them to once again consider not having its base of operations and all inmates concentrated on an island that is mostly landfill, below sea level in the East River.

Posted by: Chaka at January 7, 2009 10:07 PM

Sam, the fact is the jail is usable as it is. I know for a fact that the renovations made in the early part of this decade brought it up to standards deemed acceptable by the correctional community across the country. It may not be a modern layout with today's fixtures and amenities but it meets the acceptable standards and it is certainly better than the five jails that are literally falling apart on Rikers Island. Those buildings are going to have to come down.

Brooklyn House was renovated so that a) the DOC haa a place to put inmates if there ia a sudden rise in crime and the population increasea as courts get backed up, b) as a place to shift close to 800 inmates from Rikers if one of those 5 crumbling buildings had to be closed under an emergency order, c) to potentially be used as a place to take people picked up in mass arrests so that the police department doesn't have to set up a deplorable temporary holding cell system on a pier over the Hudson River as was done during the Republican convention in 2004.

The cost benefit analysis has been done and the Department of Corrections has shown how housing close to 800 inmates at Brooklyn House would save them money. That had to do that in order to justify the millions of dollars it cost to renovate the building.

Why hasn't the DOC just put inmates in there then? Because it's a political hot potato. Remember the outrage produced when the Mayor closed 5 firehouses so they could shift resources to parts of Brooklyn that didn't have adequate fire protection? At this point, the mayor's administration isn't ready and willing to take the heat they will get from some folks in our part of Brooklyn if that jail is used. But evetually, as the budget crisis gets worse and they don't have the money in the capital budget to fix the crumbling jails on Rikers, they will take the heat and shift inmates to Brooklyn House. Eventually it will happen.

It would be fantastic if the city had the money to build a new, modern jail facility next to the new criminal court; a building that blended better into the surrounding structures. Better jails are always better for society as a whole. But I think if the city had the money, it would be put to better use building a few new schools in our neighborhood. Our elementary and middle schools around here are completely overcrowded and because of the increase in the number of residential units this decade, they are only going to get more crowded in the future.

Posted by: BrooklynSteve at January 7, 2009 11:15 PM

"You and bxgirl can show up at the those meetings and say that Boerum Hill is filled with pretentious bourgeoise scum and that they deserve their just desserts in the form of a new jail twice the size of the old one."

sam- don't put words in my mouth. Nowhere did I say the jail should be expanded- nor do I advocate expanding the jail to punish pretentious bourgeois scum (your words not mine). I guarantee you that when I go to meetings like that (as I've done so in the past for various issues), I go prepared to make my points based on facts, not name calling. That's the technique of grumpy people whose facts are falling short of reality.

Posted by: bxgrl at January 8, 2009 12:50 AM

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January 7, 2009

Supreme Court Weighs House of Detention Re-Opening

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