« Today on the Brownstoner Backpages Closing Bell: Finally Get Rid of Your Christmas Tree »

January 5, 2009

Quote of the Day

We bought our wreck 21 years ago and all our worst fears (which you enumerate succinctly) came true. We are hostages, no, slaves, to this energy-devouring century-old heap, which delights in torturing us from its devious old mechanical heart to its leprous, flaking exterior. It has sucked every penny of disposable income from our combined labors while continuing to deteriorate before our eyes. We have made every imaginable mistake in attempting to "renovate" it, mistakes from which we seldom learn anything, because the next mistake arises from a totally different and unprecedented sort of calamity. Our so-called "investment" has kept us house-poor and chronically overwhelmed for what we laughingly call the "prime" of our lives. And unless someone gives us, oh, say, half a million dollars, it will never get any better. Needless to say, we love this pile of wretched wood and pipes with a passion so tender that to gaze upon it sometimes brings tears to our eyes, at least until a piece of woodwork or roofing falls off in plain sight.

— by Brenda from Flatbush (whose 2009 Prospect Park calendar is now available here) in First Time Homeowner Anxiety

Trackback Pings

TrackBack URL for this entry:
http://www.brownstoner.com/mte/mt-tb.cgi/7837

Comments

I love Brenda's way with words, she is so clever, and this is one of her finest, to date.

Posted by: Schultz at January 5, 2009 3:40 PM

Brenda, this is awesome. No, not that your hostages, no, slaves to your house, but your descriptive comment.

It should put a smile on anyones face that has an old house.

Posted by: bayridgegirl at January 5, 2009 3:47 PM

And now, a word from your local scrooge....

....I readily tip my hat to Brenda's prose. Having said that, I maintain my belief that much of the advice given to this anxious homeowner in this thread is ill-advised. It seems to me that Brownstoner is picking QOTD's based upon the poetry, not on the substance. Here is what I wrote in this thread:

"I wonder if all the encouragement in this thread is well-advised. To me, it smacks of the advice being given out by mortgage brokers a couple of years ago: "You can't lose in real estate"..."Don't worry about the payments right now...".

None of us know this person's financial situation nor their budgeting discipline, except that he or she is anxious enough about it to solicit advice on an anonymous forum. Perhaps it's just natural nervousness at being a first-time buyer (which I also went through), or perhaps the person is really in over their head, and, absent a course correction, is headed for a dreary existence. Who knows?

Given the lack of specifics, is it really prudent for folks to tell them that everything will be alright? I think not. Wouldn't it be better to give them some normal financial "rules of the road"?? If they have followed these guidelines, then they will indeed be alright. Otherwise, they might be headed for an existence they didn't bargain for.

In sum, what is the point of pitching the benefits of home ownership to someone when we know nothing about their financial situation, discipline and values? Seems to me that this is exactly how we wound up in our current economic debacle."

I stand by my comment.

Posted by: benson at January 5, 2009 3:48 PM

Nobody is saying anything like "you can't lose in real estate" to this poster benson. They are just trying to provide perspective. Again, if the question was "should I buy now" your point would be well taken but they have bought and now they want advice about how to handle the anxiety that the purchase has brought on--a fair enough request.

Posted by: wasder at January 5, 2009 3:53 PM

benson...I agree with you, scrooge that you are. I didn't weigh in on the post because I felt it was too open-ended and not enough information about their personal situation that I didn't feel comfortable asking.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at January 5, 2009 3:53 PM

I love the prose, but the overall quote makes me seriously wonder whether I should reconsider the "old brownstone vs new condo" debate. My heart says brownstone, but my head (and my wallet) are leaning toward condo. :P

Posted by: cwbuecheler at January 5, 2009 4:00 PM

Wasder;

Really? Here is just one of the gems of advice that was given to this person:

"When we purchased our first house in 1980, we signed up for a 14% mortgage and we paid ten points to get it. The mortgage payment took half my husband's monthly take-home, we had other debt, I was making squat (our son had just been born), and the house needed everything, which is why we could "afford" it in the first place.

Which is to say, it will all work out. One day/task at a time; don't project too far into the future or get overwhelmed by "everything" that needs to be done."

How different is this comment from "You can't lose in real estate"?

I acknowledge that this person MAY just be feeling the normal jitters that come with first-time home ownership. On the other hand, it is also quite feasible that they are truly in over their head. If the latter is the case, they should cut and run. Absent any specifics, we are giving out "Dr. Phil" instant analysis and advice here, well-written or not.

Posted by: benson at January 5, 2009 4:00 PM

Fair enough benson. I hadn't seen that exact quote you put up. But still, what else is one supposed to say but good luck? The purchase has been made. I understand that we don't know any other specifics about the OPs financial situation so our advice might be off base but if they have already bought your concern about whether or not we are giving them bum advice is misplaced and out of date. Most posters were helping with the mental aspects of it, as I was trying to do. There is a huge psychological hurdle to cross when one really takes in the notion of a multi-hundred thousand dollar debt, no matter what your financial circumstances. I don't see how offering advice about how to deal with that is doing a disservice to anyone.

Posted by: wasder at January 5, 2009 4:06 PM

Brenda - is this quote supposed to suggest that all the agony and financial outpourings are worth it? Because if I was the original poster I would kill myself after reading your comment.

Posted by: gkw at January 5, 2009 4:14 PM

Wasder;

Well, I guess we'll just have to "agree to disagree". I'm sure that everyone was well-intentioned in their advice, and I understand what you are saying. However, I would again urge caution in dispensing out advice on such a big issue without knowing more about the person's finances, values, discipline, etc. In fact, encouragement, no matter how well-intentioned, may not be the best advice this person may receive.

As we write these posts, folks are losing their homes through foreclosure by the thousands. If someone had told these folks two years ago to cut and run while their head was still above water, they would be in a different situation right now.

Posted by: benson at January 5, 2009 4:19 PM

At least it isn't one of those ugly new concrete fedders jobs, right?

Posted by: ou812 at January 5, 2009 4:27 PM

I have about 4,000sqft (about 1,000sqft per floor) in my brownstone (5,000sqft if I include the basement). Where can I get a 4,000sqft condo ?1!?!?1?!!?!?1?1?1

Yes maintaining a brownstone is expensive but no more than paying maintenance fees on a 5,000sqft condo !!!

Posted by: brownie77 at January 5, 2009 4:40 PM

brownie77 - I don't need 4000 square feet and never will. I've seen 1500-sq/ft houses that I'm unsure how I'd fill, let alone something bigger than that. So the idea of having to maintain a ton of space I won't even be using is not exactly highly appealing to me.

It's for this reason that I prefer smaller brownstones and/or condos.

Posted by: cwbuecheler at January 5, 2009 4:58 PM

benson wrote: "If someone had told these folks two years ago to cut and run while their head was still above water, they would be in a different situation right now."

benson, i guess what I am not understanding about your point is what this person could do. Are you suggesting that absent other information they would be better off walking on their mortgage? the people you mention above could have cut and run two years ago when the selling was still good but now it is doubtful that the OP (or any other person selling, myself included) would be able to get the same amount for the house that they themselves just purchased. SO I guess it is not so much that we are disagreeing as that I don't see the point of your warning.

Posted by: wasder at January 5, 2009 5:00 PM

brenda did you get your government coupon yet toward a digital converter box? this february you can only view QVC if you have one!!

*(rob*

Posted by: PitbullNYC at January 5, 2009 5:14 PM

I would never have perceived Brenda's post or others' in response to the OP as telling him to go ahead and buy, he can't lose. All anybody was saying was, yep, it IS stressful to own a brownstone especially the first year. If the OP needs specific financial advice then he could and should have provided his financial information. But he didn't.

Posted by: traditionalmod at January 5, 2009 5:34 PM

I loved Brenda's post. it was scary and funny at the same time.

benson- i appreciate what you're saying re advice, but I'm not sure what anyone can say to a cyber-aquaintance who seemed to be looking more for support from others who have gone through what he is going through, than an assessment of his decision. realistically, and as you said, without details no one could make a realistic assessment. But hte OP wasn't looking for that so much as looking for comfort and reassurance.

Posted by: bxgrl at January 5, 2009 5:41 PM

I can't concentrate enough to write a coherent post on account of divavillage dot com.

Posted by: dittoburg at January 5, 2009 6:06 PM

I thought I'd post this here too--

OP Here--I think I did everything right. I am not exceeding 25% of my gross income, I got a 5.25 mortgage rate, I put a a good amount down. Yet, I am still filled with terror. I am hoping to have the same experience as most of you--that it will pass with time. I know the fears are both rational and irrational and that change is hard. I guess that I was thinking it was going to be much easier. Everyone says that home-ownership means pride and control and I thinking of renting as carefree. Also, after all that saving, it is scary not to have months of expenses sitting in the bank right now. I worry about rebuilding the emergency fund while saving to redo the bathroom and kitchen. It all seems so much! Thanks to all of you for reminding me to breathe and be patient.

Anyone want to share recos on a good handyman?

Posted by: Cantaffordcarroll at January 5, 2009 6:18 PM

I'm the 14% interest rate poster quoted above, and my message definitely was not, You can't lose in real estate.

There was no Brownstoner blog to consult before buying back then and we were young and stupid. Though neither of us held an MBA, we were intelligent enough to sense that 14% rates and 10 points provided a powerful disincentive to buy, but we plowed ahead. We wanted to make a "home" for ourselves and our kids. Were we scared to death the day after we closed, as we sat at the kitchen table rolling our change? Yes. Did we buy to make a killing in real estate? No. We slowly made that place a home and spent some of the best years of our lives there. We hung on through economic downturns, hostile takeovers, several airline bankruptcies (my husband flew their planes), and more.

But, and this too is not to say, You can't lose in real estate, because of course you can, do you think that first brownstone my parents bought in Jersey City in 1948 for $7,800 will ever cost that again? I sure hope so!! Thanks to that first ill-advised purchase, I'll buy up a dozen of them, and pay cash.

Posted by: dylanfan at January 5, 2009 6:33 PM

Hi folks;

Well, it seems that all's well that ends well!! From the further info that the Op has provided, it seems that they are in good shape. I have to respond to Dylanfan's post, however.

Dylanfan, whether you realize it or not, your message is indeed "you can't lose in real estate", and your Jersey City story only reinforces the point. That story is the equivalent of my stock broker calling me and telling me that if I had only gotten in on the ground floor of Google, I'd be rich now. It's a classic sales pitch, used by all brokers (I'm in sales myself). Millions of people believed that pitch, and they are now headed for foreclosure.

I'm not trying to put you down, but I really suggest that you take some courses on personal finance. The book I'd most recommend to you is "The Millionaire Next Door" by Stanley and Danko. In particular, note what they have to say about the wealthy's budget practices wrt real estate, and the real source of wealth.

Posted by: benson at January 5, 2009 7:44 PM

i've owned and owned, and yes, there our countless problems no matter what, and more so with a house over a condo. my biggest piece of advice is to waterproof the hell out of your place - this includes backyard drainage, sump pumps, working gutters and basement walls that can "breathe." with all that said, i really prefer owning, and would not want to go back to renting. i am personally, incredibly particular, and it doesn't pay to do to a rental what you want to do with property that you own. for one thing, you get to enjoy it while you live there, and i have had success selling because of the work that i've done - especially with high end window treatments (i know, seems silly, but does work), and lots of built-ins/storage.

also, if you are unsure, a small investment in a decorator, even for just paint + wallpaper (huge fan of this right now), pays off huge too.

Posted by: wine lover at January 5, 2009 7:56 PM

Well the moral of the story
The moral of this song
Is simply that one should never be
Where one does not belong.
So when you see your neighbor carryin' somethin'
Help him with his load,
And don't go mistaking Paradise
For that home across the road........

The Ballad of Frankie Lee and Judas Priest

Posted by: yanks77 at January 5, 2009 8:43 PM

Thanks for the reading recommendation, Benson, but I'm doing okay, except for the money deducted from my paycheck and handed over to a 401K plan by my employer.

I think my message was that insofar as 20th-century history goes, in the long term, real estate has been an okay investment. But in 1980, we didn't think of real estate as an "investment" and we didn't even pay attention to what "the market" was doing until we went to sell, because the house was, first and foremost, our home.

I still come to this site mainly because I really do love old houses and the process of renovation. I find it rewarding to take an old wreck and restore it to its former beauty. And I love making a "home" in these places, for myself, family and friends. I won't deny that I benefited from the run-up of the last ten years, but that was never my primary goal.

Posted by: dylanfan at January 5, 2009 8:51 PM

I love Brenda's prose as well, but as a former VF neighbor, I have to say, her house looks like it's falling down and is hardly an asset to the neighborhood, despite the great bones and lack of siding.

Brenda may well love her house, but maybe she should ask herself if she can really afford it. All her posts seem to wax eloquently about her abject poverty, courtesy of her Victorian noose.

Posted by: Architerrorist at January 6, 2009 8:53 AM

This is not just an aesthetic argument - flaking exterior lead paint presents a health hazard to the entire neighborhood.

Posted by: Architerrorist at January 6, 2009 9:40 AM

I think the flaking exterior paint is probably the least of your neighborhood health hazards, architerrorist. these old houses are a labor of love- people like brenda are the ones to so the most to preserve them and their details, at no small cost to themselves.

It kills me when those "who can afford it" buy one of these beautiful old places in need of TLC, and gut them, then modernize them to the point of destruction. Why buy an old house, only to rip out the gorgeous, needs stripping butler's pantry to put in your new faux copper farmhouse sink and cabinet?

give me neighbors like brenda any day. It may take her more time to fix up her house, but I bet she's a greater asset to your neighborhood than you realize.

Posted by: bxgrl at January 6, 2009 10:39 AM

bxgrl -

There are plenty of homeowners in VF, including myself, have spent a tidy sum on period restoration coupled with modernization where needed. Many of these homes were renovated in the 70s and I assure you, few original kitchens remain.

Brenda has been in her house 20 years plus. She has done virtually nothing to the exterior, which is practically collapsing. Judging from her frequent posts (and blog), she seems more in love with being house poor than with her actual house.

As far as I can tell, Brenda is indeed "preserving" her home at very small cost to herself. Which would not irk me quite so much if she wasn't constantly advertising the fact.

Do you own a Victorian home, bxgrl?

Posted by: Architerrorist at January 6, 2009 1:38 PM

Most of the homes in Victorian Flatbush were remuddled in the 70's and early 80's. Having been in many of the recently renovated homes in the area on the house tour, I have only seen one that was a modernized and it had no original details left to preserve anyway. Most of the more recent homeowners have taken the care to restore their homes to their original grandeur. As a resident who has been here for a while, the renovations of my newer neighbors inspired me to do something about my house, which I purchased for under 200K and now is mortgage free. If they spent a million dollars to buy and renovate, I figured I could give up a couple of bucks to do something about mine.

I enjoy Brenda's blog about her house and her posts here on Brownstoner. If I remember correctly her house, according to her own blog it was used as an abandoned or haunted house in an episode of Law & Order. That would be indicative of the condition of that house. I would never have put that out there if she didn't have it on her blog.

Posted by: Chaka at January 6, 2009 2:17 PM

architerrorist- to each his own. Its nice you have that kind of money. She doesn't-it certainly wasn't neighborly of you to post what you did. You're obviously not privy to her finances or personal situation (neither am I), but commenting like you did on brownstoner is pretty mean spirited.

No- I rent from a very close friend who does own a Victorian townhouse, so I do see what it takes first hand. Not everyone has the money to do more than basic upkeep but buying the house was certainly and especially in the long run a really good financial move. I don't believe only people who can afford to restore their homes immediately and according to the neighbor's aesthetic standards are the only ones who should be allowed to own.

Posted by: bxgrl at January 6, 2009 3:50 PM

Architerrorist, if you didn't spend so much time enviously licking the exterior of our "collapsing" house, you would not be ingesting our flaking lead paint. And don't make like it's not you we see out there at night.

Actually, our house is a spectacular example of, not just good bones, but completely renovated mechanicals as well; it is astonishingly sound and square for a Victorian frame, and we simply ran out of money before we got to the exterior cosmetics. On a 3,000-square-foot frame, unless you go the siding route, you either (a) go way too deep into debt, or (b) sit patiently and wait for your ship to come in, or (c) rob a bank. We have chosen (b), despite the urgings of a young mortgage-brokering whippersnapper that we could have plundered our equity even further. Now we are very glad we chose restraint, as our house, bought for a preposterous $155K, settles like a souffle from its "million-dollar" high.

There are many downsides to living in a crappy-looking house you can't yet afford to finish, like poisoning Architerrorist's tender bloodstream with our microparticulated lead paint, or having to drool over Brownstoner forum posts about dazzling six-figure renovations, or (as Hyacinth Bucket would say) "bringing down the tone." But I have chosen, in life and through my online journal, to keep my sanity by focusing on the sweet as well as the bitter--on the paradox that the crappiest-looking house on the block can be that powerful and redemptive thing called home. Our neighbors have been a key part of that message; since we live just outside the posh landmark district, we have been blessed to live among other hard-working homeowning folks in struggle, who have never uttered a negative word in our earshot in 21 years. When we apologize for it, they typically say things like, "That's a great house, a great house. But it takes *time.*" We may yet get our exterior paint job, and Architerrorist can be spared that delicate shudder when passing our homestead. But I like to think that the house will know that we loved it through the long years of its decrepitude as well, which is, after all, how all of us wish to be loved.

Posted by: Brenda from Flatbush at January 6, 2009 7:44 PM

« Today on the Brownstoner Backpages Closing Bell: Finally Get Rid of Your Christmas Tree »

January 5, 2009

Quote of the Day

Trackback Pings

Comments

Post a comment

Latest Restaurant Additions