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January 15, 2009

Quote of the Day

We are just at the VERY beginning of the scaling back process. With the country losing jobs like crazy right now, people who want to scale back might not even be able to because they are just trying to cling to what they have right now. Think about all those MILLIONS of people who moved to the Sun Belt over the last decade and bought those energy sucking houses in the deserts of Phoenix, Las Vegas, etc. Many of them are trapped. Their houses are worth half, their electricity costs are through the roof and they now find themselves in cities which were born of the notion that bigger is better. We don't hear about the shift as much yet, because those people aren't yet packing up in any serious numbers (my few friends aside) because they are just trying to figure out what comes next. I guarantee you though, that a lot of people feel trapped right now in a lifestyle which they now realize is not sustainable for the long run. It won't be until the economy turns around that many of these same people will be able to do anything about it though. This is not a blip, I don't think. This is an earth shattering tectonic plate shift that will reshape the way people view their lives all over the world. I think so anyway. I also think that it's necessary, and will ultimately be a great thing for the human race.

— by 11217 in Brooklyn Rental Market More Stable Than Manhattan

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normally we squander and fuck up anything good that comes our way.

Posted by: Santa at January 15, 2009 3:33 PM

it just occurred to me that i will never get a quote of the day because i hate using capital letters and proper grammar (which i think is so last millenium anyway)

*rob*

Posted by: PitbullNYC at January 15, 2009 3:41 PM

nicely said 11217. congrats.

Posted by: wasder at January 15, 2009 3:42 PM

You may be right.

If you are suggesting that some type of enlightenment will replace greed and envy, I don't know. It's certainly a lovely thought.

Posted by: superstooper at January 15, 2009 3:44 PM

HEY...this quote does't even mention brownstones or high rises. What gives?

Posted by: bayridgegirl at January 15, 2009 3:44 PM

Is this my second one this week?!

I am trying to get it together in 2009 a little bit and turn over a new leaf of sorts.

While it might not be coming to fruition everywhere else, at least I know I have the QOTD on bstoner.

Posted by: 11217 at January 15, 2009 3:47 PM

"HEY...this quote does't even mention brownstones or high rises. What gives?"

Or how everyone loves Park Slope... very un11217ish, but nicely said!

Posted by: dirty_hipster at January 15, 2009 3:47 PM

Yesterday's QOTD was sort of like a booby prize compared to this.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at January 15, 2009 3:48 PM

11217- Congrats!

Posted by: superstooper at January 15, 2009 3:49 PM

to be back on topic, i honestly dont think it's going to change a majority of people really. people will still spend their money on crap and all that. the only tangible thing i can see coming out of this would be a bigger increase in the hobo (sorry i love that out dated word) population.

*rob*

Posted by: PitbullNYC at January 15, 2009 3:49 PM

I'm very well aware that not everyone loves Park Slope, dh.

Sometimes I'm just exuberant in my love of it, and that seems to turn some people off.

If loving and feeling connected to where I live is such a sin, I'll take it.

If you knew me, you'd know that I love all of Brooklyn (and NYC), but have a special affection for my own hood. Nothing wrong with that.

Posted by: 11217 at January 15, 2009 3:51 PM

"HEY...this quote does't even mention brownstones or high rises. What gives?"

"Or how everyone loves Park Slope... very un11217ish, but nicely said!"

But it does mention his friends...which is very like 11217.

YES, it's your second one this week!!
What you're going to flaunt it now!
Geez, grow up already [seething]
;-)

Posted by: bayridgegirl at January 15, 2009 3:52 PM

Rob,

Judging by the fact that retail sales are down significantly, gas consumption is down, imports are down, etc, it seems people are buying less "crap"

That's really all we can hope for. There will always be people who want to fill their lives with material possessions instead of focusing on the truly important things in life.

Those people have not yet seen the light.

Posted by: 11217 at January 15, 2009 3:53 PM

bullshit

Posted by: sam at January 15, 2009 3:59 PM

diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks. material items can mean a lot to someone, sometimes more than human relationships and stuff like that. it doesnt inherently make them bad people though. like id much rather sit in a pile of my massive collection of junky old cluttery space hogging plastic video games than sit in a people circle singing kumbaya, you know? jenny at the food co-op is no better a person than jenny at gamestop.

*rob*

Posted by: PitbullNYC at January 15, 2009 3:59 PM

You may be right - the ability to judge this as necessary and great depends a lot on your perspective. As much as people may not realize how big a shift we are undergoing, so may others not realize that the problems of those people will likely be brought home to everyone.

Posted by: jawbreaker at January 15, 2009 4:01 PM

It's not about being a better person, Rob. If you took the time to get to know Jenny gamestop, I have a feeling that maybe she's lonely.

I don't know...this is getting too deep. I don't want to get into all that. I'm not a therapist.

Posted by: 11217 at January 15, 2009 4:02 PM

Congrats, 11217.

For us losers: Happy Hour at the Loser Lounge from 5 PM to 7 PM tonight.

Posted by: benson at January 15, 2009 4:03 PM

rob, FWIW, you should have won QOTD way back with your "boys who look like Hannah Montana" remark. It's up there in my B'stoner highlight reel. So stop wallowing in your pile of junk and get out there and go skate around with those twerps in the hall.

Posted by: slopefarm at January 15, 2009 4:03 PM

i've seriously decided to just turn a blind-eye to the whole economic crisis. woop-de-doo. ill just add it to laundry list of other ridiculous catastrophic things ive gone thru in nyc so far,(9-11, blackout of 03, now the great depression 2.0)! bring it universe!

*rob*

Posted by: PitbullNYC at January 15, 2009 4:05 PM

I remember that Hannah Montana remark.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at January 15, 2009 4:05 PM

lol thanks slopefarm. thinking of that just now made me chuckle too

*rob*

Posted by: PitbullNYC at January 15, 2009 4:07 PM

"I'm very well aware that not everyone loves Park Slope, dh.

Sometimes I'm just exuberant in my love of it, and that seems to turn some people off."

I know - just playing around!!!

Posted by: dirty_hipster at January 15, 2009 4:20 PM

the 2012 paradigm shift. new world order of green consciousness?
I like what the Waltz with Bashir filmmaker said: "I hope that when they grow up and see this film, everything they see will appear to them like something from another world, just another animated movie." I can only hope the same for my little one.

Posted by: Fjorder at January 15, 2009 4:21 PM

My prior posting was too terse. This is a very well-written and thoughtful QOTD. I do think it is a little apocalyptic, (I may have mis-spelled that) for my tastes. I have travelled pretty extensively throughout the country and I have found that it is a very large and for the most part prosperous land. The greatest concentrations of poverty actually are right here in places like Brooklyn and the Bronx. Folks in Phoenix and Las Vegas are A-OK believe me. They are not pining away for the northeast corridor.
It is not a tectonic shift it is a severe recession. Big woop. The best thing now is to hold on to your job, pay off your credit cards, and if you find a sweet, cheap, little brownstone, grab it!

Posted by: sam at January 15, 2009 4:46 PM

One more thing, electricity costs are actually pretty low in Las vegas. they have something there called the Hoover Dam. That sucker generates a lot of hydro-electric power, which is completely clean energy. We have to burn coal and oil for most of our own power here in da apple.

Posted by: sam at January 15, 2009 4:52 PM

If anyone seriously thinks this is a tectonic shift, they've either been hitting the Obama Bong a little too hard or hanging around with Millennials. The vast majority of Americans don't live in the Sunbelt (and don't live in New York), so extrapolating from either isn't going to work. Should I extrapolate from the parts of Louisiana and Texas that, until last month, were going gangbusters precisely because of the money the oil industry was raking in? As far as this being a global phenomenon, "sustainability," as it's usually used in the States, is a luxury, the sort of thing people can worry about when they aren't worried about housing, staying alive, finding food and running away from bombs, missiles, pirates and guys with machetes. That's not to say we shouldn't be striving toward these things, but let's just say I wouldn't be placing large bets on it.

Yes, lots of people are hurting ... but the human memory tends to be very short. If people learned anything from bubbles and cycles ... well then bubbles wouldn't be cyclical now would they?

Indeed, if gas prices stay low for longer than six months and if this winter--as predicted by the Farmer's almanac--proves to be record-breaking brittle, you can bet that most Americans are going to put environmental issues on the back burner once again.

Posted by: RaginCajun at January 15, 2009 5:05 PM

11217 - perfectly said!
Sam- travel upstate much? drive through some of the country roads up there and you see what is "real poverty" how about the back woods of Alabama? um that's poverty.
One might argue that the poverty in the South Bronx is nothing compared to the poverty people experience in the places I mention above.

Posted by: gemini10 at January 15, 2009 5:10 PM

Yes, memories are short. People who tried to call the bubble was told that they just didn't understand things -- too old. Everything was different... until it wasn't.

Posted by: BH76 at January 15, 2009 5:12 PM

It is a very nice quote--well-written, interesting, thought-provoking--but I couldn't disagree more. Do you really think that people in the sun belt think that the economic collapse has anything at all to do with the fact that their lifestyle in "unsustainable"? No, they think that they were caught in an economic collapse, from which they will eventually rebound. You are making connections--which are largely unfouned and based on nothing more than your personal beliefs--that the people in question certainly are not making.

As for a tetonic shift, I think a few people out there are "seeing the light" and making life changes. I know some people who lost their jobs recently who are leaving the city and moving upstate to grow their own veggies and live what they see as more sustainable lives without the glitz and glam and excess of city living. But I think that that is an insignificant handful of folks.

Posted by: shillstoner at January 15, 2009 5:36 PM

this website reminds me of the golden globes.

the same 20 people and alot of patting on the back.

Posted by: Santa at January 15, 2009 5:43 PM

I loved your prior posting, sam.

Posted by: mopar at January 15, 2009 5:52 PM

Can I be Clint Eastwood?

Posted by: sam at January 15, 2009 5:54 PM

GM and Ford reported that they are seeing an uptick in truck sales and Honda is experiencing a pileup in Prius inventory.

The govt. is drafting provisions to adjust mortgages down to current values (i.e. cramdowns), making the taxpayers and the banks eat the difference.

Real tectonic shifts.

Posted by: jingle mail at January 15, 2009 6:04 PM

you know what's potentially apocalytic? What is happening now in Gaza. That is very scary, especially as the US is in the very midst of a transfer of power. Hypothetically, say Egypt decides to attack Tel Aviv, what happens then?
Now that would be something to worry about. Not the cost of electricity or the drying up of the secondary credit markets.

Posted by: sam at January 15, 2009 7:00 PM

Honda doesn't make Prius. Toyota does.

And GM and Ford are on the verge of bankruptcy. GM closer to it than the latter.

Toyota saw its profits decline for the first time in 10 years, I believe.

I think that's a tectonic shift in some respect. That the automobile giants of Detroit are on the verge of collapse without help from the U.S. government? Sure.

My post wasn't about the housing bubble only. The housing bubble collapse is just the thing that has triggered the process of realizing how we've been living for the past few decades. As I said in my post, this is just the very beginning.

As someone who has lived in Phoenix and been to Las Vegas 20 times, I can tell you firsthand that the poverty that exists in some parts of those areas are more similar to that experienced in 3rd world countries. It makes the Bronx look like Ann Arbor. Alabama, West Virginia, upstate, Detroit, parts of Baltimore, Cleveland and Philadelphia...all good examples of poverty that are truly staggering.

Average home cooling bills for a 3000sf home in Phoenix are 400-600 a month from April - October. Not sure about Las Vegas, but I know they are not "cheap."

Posted by: 11217 at January 15, 2009 7:03 PM

I guess when i travel I don't go to the poorest parts of town. My upstate visits are usually to Cooperstown and Saratoga. No, not a lot of abject poverty there.
11217, you sound a little depressed. The country is not disintegrating and the world is not imploding (though keep an eye on Gaza). You should look at the glass as 90% full rather than 10% empty.
But if there's another Mideast War, then all bets are off.

My electricity bills in brooklyn in summer are about $300 to 450 a month. I have central air. Do you live in NY wothout a.c.? Plus I have the heating bills in winter, plus it costs me another 280 a month to park, and my auto insurance is like five times what I would pay somwhere predominantly middle-class like Phoenix and NY State taxes are a scandal. I think you need to get out more.

Posted by: sam at January 15, 2009 7:27 PM

Wow. Not used to seeing such profundity here. Good stuff.

And no, this is not at all apocalyptic. As 11217 says, this is a necessary and good thing for humanity. Our greedy, materialistic, superficial culture needs correction. And sadly, countries with rich cultures around the world mimic our gluttonous lifestyle.

There will be big changes and this is not just a bump in the road. The consequences of our population having a negative savings rate will begin to manifest.

But we, as a people, will be just fine. Like an addict - sometimes you gotta hit rock bottom before you see the light.

Posted by: Come Clean at January 15, 2009 7:30 PM

And believe me...when I tell friends back in Phoenix that my electricity bill is $25-30 from October - June and about $70 from July - September, they definitely think about their living situation in a different light, if they hadn't already.

Some of you don't give people enough credit. They might not want to move to the Northeast corridor, but there are certainly ways in which every single person can find ways to scale back their lifestyle and live more harmonious with the earth and with each other.

Posted by: 11217 at January 15, 2009 7:32 PM

Sam, if you would listen to other people instead of trying to drown them out you would see by my last statement that I'm far from depressed. I'm excited about the possibilities.

I'm probably one of the most optimistic people you'd ever meet.

I look at this entire situation as a learning experience, a time to grow and a time to bond.

As for getting out more, I've been to every state in the country (have you?), about 25 countries outside the U.S. and plan to visit a new one every year as I've done for many years. Unlike you, however, I don't close my eyes to things around me and only visit places like Saratoga.

I like to experience all of life. Even the ugly parts are beautiful.

Posted by: 11217 at January 15, 2009 7:35 PM

It sounds like you live a pretty gluttonous life, Sam.

Perhaps you are so defensive because you need to do some scaling back of your own.

Posted by: 11217 at January 15, 2009 7:37 PM

p.s. I have a window air conditioner, which I run only when absolutely necessary.

I'm doing just fine without central AC.

Posted by: 11217 at January 15, 2009 7:40 PM

your electric bill is $25 to 30? Do you live in an SRO with one 20 watt bulb and an ice chest?
That is just ridiculous.
Maybe you should be less judgemental of others. it all stems from jealousy you know. Believe me, you are not the most optimistic person I know.
In fact I think you sound like a happiness anorexic.

Posted by: sam at January 15, 2009 7:45 PM

Every comment you post is negative, Sam.

Think about that.

Again, I'm confused by your defensiveness.

Do you believe the U.S. needs to become MORE consumption oriented? That seems to be your argument here.

You don't know me at all. You know a few comments I make on an anonymous website.

I find your comments on this otherwise incredibly interesting thread to be the most judgemental and apocalyptic in fact.

Posted by: 11217 at January 15, 2009 7:51 PM

And if you listened to anyone but yourself, you'd know that I live in a studio, which is more than enough space for me. It's one of my most favorite places on the planet, and I look forward to coming home to it each and every night. I don't need more space, I don't want more space and love nearly everything about my neighborhood. I'm totally happy here. Thrilled actually. Buying my apartment was one of the best things I've ever done.

I understand others need more space than I do, and that is perfectly reasonable. But I'm certainly not jealous. Far from it. I live an extremely fulfilling, yet simple lifestyle.

We are clearly very different people. I'm giving my opinions, just like you are.

Posted by: 11217 at January 15, 2009 7:59 PM

11217, I think your comments are all negative.
You perhaps have a religious calling or perhaps you need to go to the woods to purge yourself of whatever gluttony you believe your fellow citizens suffer from. I think you should talk to someone you trust about your odd negative feelings about your society and neighbors, you seem a bit confused. Son, this a blog about multi-million dollar luxury houses. Multi-million dollar houses that then require hundreds of thousands of dollars in renovation and redecoration costs. You are at the wrong cyber address. Try Mother teresa's website, or better yet go to their mission near Christopher Street and volunteer your time.
I think my first comment about your posting was the most accurate, I really did not need to say anything more.
Good night now.

Posted by: sam at January 15, 2009 8:02 PM

Ignorance is bliss, right Sam?

"Maybe you should be less judgemental of others".....

- "I think you need to get out more."

- "Believe me, you are not the most optimistic person I know.
In fact I think you sound like a happiness anorexic."

- "it all stems from jealousy you know."

- "11217, you sound a little depressed"

Posted by: 11217 at January 15, 2009 8:05 PM

Oh I forgot the best one...

"bullshit"

I will let the rest of your comments speak for themselves. I think it's quite clear here who needs some help.

Posted by: 11217 at January 15, 2009 8:08 PM

And you might want to let Mr. B know to put an alert at the top of the blog making sure that everyone knows that you are not allowed to read or post here unless you own a multi-million dollar brownstone. According to your incredibly disgusting final post, that would rule out half the readers. I'm sure he won't mind.

Posted by: 11217 at January 15, 2009 8:19 PM

everyone today survives because they are the recipient of money made from the sale of something. scaling back will just f of us all.

i was thinking of starting a social networking plea for everyone to start buying stuff. and lots of it.

you can only scale back so far. we'll do better by making more money, not spending less. spending less only results in a domino effect of then making less.

Posted by: wine lover at January 15, 2009 8:42 PM

RaginCajun is the same poster as someone else whom I recently decided I dislike but has a different name. Clearly the same person but different name... same tedious writing style.

Posted by: lechacal at January 15, 2009 10:39 PM

I have to agree with sam on this one, the post seems a bit heavy on hyperbole.
This nation has been through a lot in the past decade; attacks on the homeland, war, natural disasters of biblical proportion and a virulent divisiveness stoked by a media which now serves its own agenda.
Despite all that, most Americans I speak to and see daily, continue to live their lives, go about their business and generally defy all expectations of failure.
I don't think we are at the point, as a nation, where we are resigned to negativity. If anything, we are at the opposite point, one of renewed hope. I'll give that to Obama, although I didn't vote for him, but that's the difference, I'm not looking for a recount.
what's more, if we look at our past as any measure of our future, we have come back from far worse.
No, I think what's called for here is something entirely foreign to much of the baby boomer generation which has been driving our self-destructive, self-loathing, mea culpa ridden national discourse since Vietnam.
Backbone and Grit.
And before some snotnosed punk tries to go all ironic on me about stating this, let me say, that you will only be proving my point about how far up our collective asses the politically correct crowd has shoved our heads and psyches.
Take a look at the international pages of your precious NY Times and you will see a hard world out there, one filled with oppression, despots, genocide, war and general nastiness.
By comparison, our 7% unemployment rate, $1.99/gallon gasoline and hand wringing over not having that house in the hamptons yet, seems quite tame.
It won't be easy, but as Sartre said;
"life begins on the far side of despair".

Posted by: Legion at January 15, 2009 10:54 PM

This is an interesting thread. I got a chuckle, which is rare.

11217: you know what you need asap? You need to get laid!
Sex is important to clear out all those backed-up negative feelings about America and consumers and people who live in Phoenix (I loved that!).
Good luck!
remember our motto here at Brownstoner:
Get the best bang for your buck!

Posted by: Inigo at January 15, 2009 11:21 PM

11217, as you know, I agree with your post, as I wrote in the original thread. I don't see your outlook on life as negative, defeatist, or whatever label someone else has for it. I also agree that now is a time of great challenge, and great hope for a better tomorrow. Not because of Obama, or some Divinely imposed national austerity, but because in times of challenge, we are able to take chances, strive for more, and become someone better than who we were.

In that quest is the opportunity to become less materially obsessed. That doesn't realistically mean we don hair shirts, live in caves and retreat from our modern conveniences, but we realize that we are not defined by our latest and biggest flat screen tv's, latest I-Phone, or most impressive car, apartment, or address. It's not that we can't or shouldn't have those things, it's that they are not really that important, and in realizing that, maybe we decide they can wait, or other things can take their place, like a good used car, or a zip car, instead of a new car, etc,etc. Maybe it's not always all about us.

Congratulations on your QOTD. Keep 'em coming.

Posted by: Montrose Morris at January 16, 2009 12:25 AM

There was a headline this last week that California had the largest number of people move away from the state this last year. 11217 may be right people will be fleeing the sunbelt.

Posted by: traditionalmod at January 16, 2009 11:19 AM

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January 15, 2009

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