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January 15, 2009
Brooklyn Rental Market More Stable Than Manhattan
Good news from the New York Observer about the Brooklyn residential rental market: Evidently the smaller properties and more diversified owner base is making for smoother sailing than in Manhattan where a few large companies are being forced to offer increasingly sweet incentives:
For now, most of Brooklyn’s smaller landlords are living in a world apart from the rough-and-tumble Manhattan market, where rents are already falling in several neighborhoods, and panicky property owners are slashing rents, sometimes by hundreds of dollars, and offering any incentive they can think of to help put tenants in their units. In Brooklyn: not so much.
Have any brownstone owners had to rent out their garden apartment recently? How did it go?
Brooklyn Rent Check [NY Observer]
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Comments
cornerbodega??? Care to comment and make an ass out of yourself yet once again???
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at January 15, 2009 9:34 AM
Rented mine out in November. was easy as pie. but that was November.
Posted by: wasder at January 15, 2009 9:34 AM
can it be b/c there are still a lot of buildings being built in bklyn that will be coming on market in the coming year, and THEN there'll be a greater supply vs. demand?
Posted by: goldie at January 15, 2009 9:36 AM
Thousands of condos being dumped on the market as rentals will definitely depress the higher end market, especially for brownstone apts.
Posted by: denton at January 15, 2009 9:36 AM
Can anyone provide the exact number of units coming on the market in the future or is this merely rampant anecdotal speculation and "numbers" pouring out of your orifices????
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at January 15, 2009 9:40 AM
"anecdotal speculation and "numbers" pouring out of your orifices????"
oh true. walk into any Corcoran Orifice and they'll say the tide of units coming out are a sign of good times, high demand, and buy now before it too late.
Posted by: goldie at January 15, 2009 9:44 AM
There has to be a few thousand condo units being finished in the burg alone that will be marketed as rentals . the 2 avalon buildlings in DT BK - and i'm sure a few of those condos in DT Brooklyn (wasn't there supposed to be an Oro 2?) will go rental.
Wow, that's quite an incoherent sentence. Sorry, it's early.
Posted by: dirty_hipster at January 15, 2009 9:45 AM
Is that panic I hear, Dave?
Posted by: Whuh at January 15, 2009 9:45 AM
Certainly not Whuh. My apartment unit is rented and they'll sign a lease extension this week. I'm sure if I wanted to I could raise their rent or throw them out and get a higher rent.
If you make an argument based on "thousands of units" you should be able to sustantiate it as opposed to just throwing out the statement and expecting everyone to nod in agreement. But you wouldn't really understand that kind of logic now, would you?
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at January 15, 2009 9:51 AM
A friend recently rented a well-maintained garden-level apartment with access to a nice garden in prime Fort Greene for $2800. I was shocked she got that much. She'd started at $3k and got no takers, so lowered it. It's a one-bedroom plus office.
The move-in date was Jan. 1, I think, so this is recent.
Posted by: tinarina at January 15, 2009 9:54 AM
A lot of people i know would rather rent in a nice brownstone home with a neighborhood feel, rather than a high rise condo where everyone including the doorman know your buisness. There is really no sense of community in those brand new high rise condos.
Posted by: sebb at January 15, 2009 9:54 AM
that cant be The What. post was less than 5 paragraphs.
Posted by: goldie at January 15, 2009 9:55 AM
Seems to me we are talking about apples and oranges in terms of types of rentals.
In your more affluent markets, the people who can afford to choose where they live are going to go to those apts they are attracted to. If you want to live in a brownstone, especially one with period details, you aren't even going to look at a new construction building, and vice versa. If your heart is set on a brand new, modern building, the brownstone apartment could be free and you wouldn't take it. Any large building landlord perks are nice, but not the deal maker.
In a less affluent market, where you live where you can, and money is the first, last, and only consideration, those landlords, large and small, are in the catbird seat, and have no real incentive to do anything in terms of lowering prices: they have an apartment, and the renters will come. In my neighborhood, prices are not going down, and no one I know, including some broker friends, is having any problem renting a decent brownstone apartment for a fair market price for this neighborhood.
Posted by: Montrose Morris at January 15, 2009 9:58 AM
ditto in Bed Stuy, MM.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at January 15, 2009 9:59 AM
I'm not saying the these high rises are substitues for a brownstone apt with period details - but won't prospective/current tenants be expecting prices to go down? I think alot of you landlords will have some serious negotiating to do with your tenants in about 6 months-one year. I think in the grand scheme of things, many people would prefer a brownstone apt, but if they could get something for the same price with more ameneties in a better location, they will bite.
Posted by: dirty_hipster at January 15, 2009 10:04 AM
There is one interesting ramification to the weakness in the rental market, or at least some segments of it. As you may know, the rent control law was brought about by a post-WWII housing "crisis" - a "crisis" that has now lasted almost 60 years. The "crisis" was a shortage of housing, and the evidence was a vacancy rate of less than 5%. If indeed rents are falling in a significant sector of the housing market, it would indicate a surplus of inventory.
I will be amused to watch NY's hack politicians contort themselves to explain that there is still a housing "crisis" in our city, as empty apartments sit waiting for tennants.
Posted by: benson at January 15, 2009 10:04 AM
benson....I also heard recently, but forgot the details, that there would be changes to the stabilization rules if vacancies were to remain above 5% for a period of time. Anybody know the exact details??? I assume that even if this were to trigger a change, the political hacks would be all over it. Letitia James would be up in arms.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at January 15, 2009 10:07 AM
you also have to take into account the seriously changing demographic of manhattan these days to begin with. you can either pay thru the nose and live below 96th street or move to harlem, washington heights, and inwood. i mean yeah it's sort of always been that way, but there is absoltely ZERO diversity below 96th street and it gets worse the further down you go. yeah it would be great to live in downtown manhattan (34th - houston) but do you really want to live in an overcrowded area that is only these days filled with trustafarians, sex in the city-in-training girls, and frat rats? no. it's just not fun, at all. and i don't say that because i can't afford to, i say that with a weird sense of pride that it's GREAT that i can't afford that.
*rob*
Posted by: PitbullNYC at January 15, 2009 10:10 AM
This is so cute. I think people need to focus their attention to the financial markets. This is where everything is in meltdown mode. The sad thing is we will not get a Obama bounce and everything will go sideways on him.
JPMorgan Profit Drops 76 Percent on Asset Writedowns
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=ac2EdyAtC2s8&refer=home
The year-old U.S. recession has pushed the unemployment rate to a 15-year high, and foreclosures rose to a record in the third quarter. More consumers are paying late on their credit cards and mortgages, forcing banks to increase reserves. JPMorgan almost tripled its provisions for bad debt in the past year, the company said today.
“If the economic environment deteriorates further, which is a distinct possibility, it is reasonable to expect additional negative impact on our market-related businesses, continued higher loan losses and increases to our credit reserves,” Chief Executive Officer Jamie Dimon said in the statement.
I think the dialogue should reflect 2009, not the halcyon days of 2005. The Mutant Asset Bubble has imploded and is spewing radiation all over the financial landscape.
Note: I will not go back and forth with the Asshats. Brownstoner Web hits are falling and Jon is desperate of attention and "The What" will not help him out.
2009 is a very different year. Buh bye Asshats...
The What
Someday this war is gonna end...
Posted by: Return of The What at January 15, 2009 10:12 AM
i thought that when they tack on the nomer of "luxury" to a building it is not included in that 5 % vacancy rate.? am i wrong about this? is that why every new building is touted as luxury anyway? to avoid certain pitfalls, taxes, etc? sorry if im talking out of my ass, i may have just picked this up on another website with people talking or something.
*rob*
Posted by: PitbullNYC at January 15, 2009 10:14 AM
"but do you really want to live in an overcrowded area that is only these days filled with trustafarians, sex in the city-in-training girls, and frat rats? no. it's just not fun, at all"
Amen
Posted by: dirty_hipster at January 15, 2009 10:15 AM
"Note: I will not go back and forth with the Asshats"
Then don't post anything What.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at January 15, 2009 10:18 AM
i actually used to read the what's postings, now i literally just scroll past. it's beyond tedious and it borders on Rain Man neurotica.
*rob*
Posted by: PitbullNYC at January 15, 2009 10:22 AM
Rob;
The rent control law nominally looks at the overall vacancy rate of multi-family dwellings (which does not include apartments in 2 or 3 family homes), and does not distinguish between the various sectors (low end, high end, etc.).
You can surely expect, however, that the hack politicians will start to make exactly this argument: the 5% rule should apply to only certain sectors of the market.
Posted by: benson at January 15, 2009 10:25 AM
I really dont know what some of you people smoke - but I'd like some.
Except in rare occasions (for ex .b/c of a backyard) - a residential apartment building provides a FAR better rental then your average, hacked up brownstone apartment.
1st of all very few Brownstones can really be cut up into apartments all that great, the heating (and drafts) is inconsistent across rooms and floors, the sound insulation is lousy, the rooms are seldom proportioned correctly, windows are hard to come by, the ownership is generally inexperienced and fiscally constrained but has to maintain a fickle and old structure, there is virtually never an elevator, the electric and plumbing is sometimes inadequate for multi-family use and if you dont get along with your LL - its generally going to suck since you live with them.
We are talking about RENTING - people are not concerned about appreciation. Sure maybe some people would prefer to live in a historical building with period appointments but the willingness to give up other factors is FAR less than in an ownership market.
Posted by: fsrg at January 15, 2009 10:27 AM
Having outrageously high rents in Brooklyn in is good news?
Posted by: Suburbandude at January 15, 2009 10:28 AM
"Having outrageously high rents in Brooklyn in is good news?"
For brownstone owners with rental units, which is alot of people who frequent this website.
Posted by: dirty_hipster at January 15, 2009 10:36 AM
fsrg...I'm questioning your belief in the necessity of an elevator in a brownstone for the renters. We can discuss the other issues after we've hashed this one out.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at January 15, 2009 10:37 AM
im moving in april and currently digging around craigslist to see what I have to deal with. While prices have dropped in the east village and LES they're still expensive and the apartments are on average small and shitty. The "fringe" areas of park slope are getting cheaper. I looked at a 4 bedroom on douglass between 4th and 3rd ave which was 2900. Two of the "bedrooms" didnt have windows but where around 10x10 and the living room and kitchen where large enough for 4 people and there was a back yard. It was no fee and i could see if it sits for awhile getting the rent down to 2700 or so.
My friends just rented a nice and pretty large 2 bedroom on 5th ave and Dean for 1950. I looked at a shitty "2" bedroom in the same building last year and it was 1850. The second bedroom was 5x6 and the place had no closets.
outrageously high rents in brooklyn are only good for people who paid outrageous prices on their brownstones and need to cover their asses with rent money.
Posted by: Santa at January 15, 2009 10:38 AM
"but do you really want to live in an overcrowded area that is only these days filled with trustafarians, sex in the city-in-training girls, and frat rats? no. it's just not fun, at all"
cant believe im biting the bait. one can argue bklyn bstone areas are now just boring middle-aged stroller-pushing yuppies, or dirty douchey hipsters.
below 96th is still diverse. neighborhoods of puerto ricans and dominicans, blacks, gays, hipster/artists, etc. its not all just uws/ues families.
Posted by: goldie at January 15, 2009 10:41 AM
"I will not go back and forth with the Asshats." Meaning what What? If you are going to post here you might as well mix it up with us. what else is the point of a web forum?
Posted by: wasder at January 15, 2009 10:47 AM
It is always nice to hear a homeowner say " I could always chase my tenents out and raise the rent even higher" Well you don't have to hear what I think of people that talk like that. Can you imagine their are parisites that want both rents from their tenents and they want money from the government to help refinace their homes. Renters make your voices be heard and go to angryrenters.com
Posted by: hannible at January 15, 2009 10:47 AM
i agree with goldie. If you drop some random suburbanite on Clinton and Stanton they would shit themselves.
however the diversity of manhattan doesnt really mean the diversity lives there. All those Nigerians on 28th street certainly dont live there.
Posted by: Santa at January 15, 2009 10:49 AM
"below 96th is still diverse. neighborhoods of puerto ricans and dominicans, blacks, gays, hipster/artists, etc. its not all just uws/ues families."
Well that excludes UES, UWS, Murray Hill, Midtown, Gramercy, Soho, Tribeca, Nolita, Fidi, West Village and the East village west of Ave B.
Posted by: dirty_hipster at January 15, 2009 10:51 AM
FSRQ (or is it FSRG?);
In one sense I agree with you. However, there are many folks who rent do not want to live in an apartment building, even if they offers superior apartments. I know that my family was this way. When you live in a two or three family home, you have more of a connection to the neighborhood. You can sit on the front stoop, chat with your neighbors, etc. An apartment building, especially a high-rise tower, cannot provide this setting.
For some folks, living in a chopped-up apartment in a brownstoner or modest rowhouse is preferable to an apartment house, even if the latter offers superior room layouts and mechanicals.
Posted by: benson at January 15, 2009 10:51 AM
Fsrq, by that description, it's absolutely astounding that thousands of people are living in such substandard conditions all over the city, and many of them are paying a pile of money to do it. People should be boycotting brownstone apartments and demanding to live in multi unit buildings, causing mass exoduses from brownstone neighborhoods in Manhattan and Brooklyn to the apartment buildings of the Bronx, Queens and other parts of Manhattan and Brooklyn.
Since they are not, could it be that people like living in row houses? Especially those who could afford to do otherwise? Maybe you don't, but why rag on those who do?
Personally, living in a large multi unit building, and I have, means putting up with lobbies filled with people you don't know or want to deal with, elevators that break down, supers of varying degrees of invisibility, competence or thuggery, fellow tenants with lifestyle habits that don't mesh with mine, strange cooking smells, bad taste in music/tv, kids running amok all throughout the building, communal or no laundry service, peeping tom teenagers, people having loud sexual encounters at all times of day and night, garbage chutes in hallways with neighbors who don't know how to use them, greater chance of fire, little control over heat, vermin and cockroaches.
Give me a brownstone any day.
Posted by: Montrose Morris at January 15, 2009 10:51 AM
As someone who rents in a "hacked up brownstone" I admit that I'd rather not climb those stairs, but it's worth it to me. I like the charm and scale of my immediate neighborhood and there are tons of people renting such spaces who prefer them to apartment buildings. Besides, I've had roach problems, crappy heat, horrible supers, etc. in large apartment building I've lived in. A space of equal size in a luxury highrise might command higher rent, but you would have a doorman, health club, and those other fancy dancy amenities. If you're talking about your average multi-family apartment building, I highly doubt that the rents are more than the equivalent square footage in a brownstone.
Posted by: Carol Gardens at January 15, 2009 10:54 AM
All good points MM, not to mention the inherent comedy in somebody suggesting on Brownstoner.com that Brownstones are not a desirable place to live. Post that on hi-rise.com.
Posted by: wasder at January 15, 2009 10:55 AM
"Personally, living in a large multi unit building, and I have, means putting up with lobbies filled with people you don't know or want to deal with, elevators that break down, supers of varying degrees of invisibility, competence or thuggery, fellow tenants with lifestyle habits that don't mesh with mine, strange cooking smells, bad taste in music/tv, kids running amok all throughout the building, communal or no laundry service, peeping tom teenagers, people having loud sexual encounters at all times of day and night, garbage chutes in hallways with neighbors who don't know how to use them, greater chance of fire, little control over heat, vermin and cockroaches.
Sounds like Avalon Chrystie Place - ah the good ol days!!
Posted by: dirty_hipster at January 15, 2009 10:55 AM
""I will not go back and forth with the Asshats." Meaning what What? If you are going to post here you might as well mix it up with us. what else is the point of a web forum?"
Wasder I'm waiting for the Shockwave take everyone out. 2009 is going to be a death blow to all the Asshats. I don't have to do nothing but watch..
Bank of America Plunges as Bank May Need U.S. Aid for
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=a4ZaJtGCxP1w&refer=home
Jan. 15 (Bloomberg) -- Bank of America Corp., the biggest U.S. bank by assets, plunged as much as 22 percent in New York trading on concern that the company needs more government aid to absorb losses tied its acquisition of Merrill Lynch & Co.
Shares of the Charlotte, North Carolina-based bank dropped $2.01 to $8.19 at 9:59 a.m. in New York Stock Exchange composite trading and fell as low as $8. Bank of America told regulators in December the takeover might be abandoned because of Merrill's worse-than-expected results, and the bank is in talks to get more U.S. aid, said three people familiar with the matter.
The government insisted the Merrill deal proceed because its collapse would renew turmoil in the financial system, said the people, who declined to be identified because talks are private. Details may be disclosed on Jan. 20, when the bank could post its first quarterly loss in 17 years after buying Merrill Lynch and Countrywide Financial Corp.
See Wasder! Wall Street is having an Aneurysm and the time is real short. This was the foundation of my rants and not it's too late. The wheels are coming off and we are seeing to end of the Mutant Asset Bubble.
I hope you withstand the impact Wasder....
The What
Someday this war is gonna end..
Posted by: Return of The What at January 15, 2009 10:59 AM
"I hope you withstand the impact Wasder...." Thanks, I guess. I am trying to reconfigure my business right now to make it more recession proof. As I work in entertainment (music and TV) usually we thrive in downturns but this is not your average downturn as you know. So all bets are off. I personally have stopped making predictions of any sort and instead am concentrating on the things I can take care of in my immediate surroundings. I am loving my house so far and my neighborhood and neighbors so whatever I can do in my little neck of the woods to keep things on course is what I am concentrating on....
Posted by: wasder at January 15, 2009 11:04 AM
I would never again live in an apartment building.
Brownstone/Townhouse living is my style.
As for the diversity of Manhattan below 96th Street, I simply do not see it. As someone else said...the "diverse" people you see on the streets of Manhattan generally do not live there. They live in Brooklyn and Queens.
Posted by: 11217 at January 15, 2009 11:06 AM
11217 i would exclude chinatown from that tho.
and the far eastern areas of the EV and LES.
Posted by: Santa at January 15, 2009 11:09 AM
hannible, you're an ass, as usual.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at January 15, 2009 11:09 AM
DIBS - no one said that renter (or anyone else) NEEDS an elevator - but given the choice having an elevator (like virtually all the new condo-soon-to-be-rentals) is a plus. (Carrying groceries, children, strollers, etc.... up 3 narrow flights generally isnt too much fun)
MM- People arent fleeing Brownstone rentals b/c - 1 Brownstone rentals are genrally cheaper and there arent enough rental apartments to meet demand (at a generally affordable price - as it is). The point is however that the coming condo-to-rental apartments will have a big effect on Brownstone rentals.
MM -as for your preference for a Brownstone - that great - it just isnt the majority opinion especially since except for the lobby (and elevator) complaints - every other complaint you have is potentially worse in a smaller building (like a brownstone) albeit with fewer residence you can potentially do easier due diligence to see what you are getting.
Posted by: fsrg at January 15, 2009 11:14 AM
rents peaked last year, heading south
rental demand down, harder to rent units, pricing dropping and will drop more
new construction condo inventory and rentals will get hammered
some professional owners say they don't see much difference yet, some say they see a lot of difference
Posted by: BK realestate veteran at January 15, 2009 11:16 AM
Dibs, maybe fsrq wants a brownstone with one of these: http://www.tkaccess.com/stair-lift/
Posted by: Frederick Law Homestead at January 15, 2009 11:18 AM
im not gonna lie. almost every landlord ive had has been a total asshole. I rented from this nice old lady in college and she was great but other than that its been pretty shitty.
it doesnt make sense why tho because I'm helping them make a living or pay for their house and they're helping me have a place to live so Im not on the street. It seems like a decent and normal interaction between two people that need each other but for some reason the landlord always thinks they're better and I guess thats what makes them an ass.
i guess its like a relationship where one person is always on the look out for someone better to fuck. And that person you're looking to fuck will pay more money than me...
Posted by: Santa at January 15, 2009 11:19 AM
Who else but the few delusional cheerleaders on here can, with a straight face, claim that BK will be immune from sales/rents taking a deep dive. I mean really? Do you live in a bubble? Whatever happens in Manhattan, and its going to be bad, will be worse in Brooklyn. Theres already deals in the West Village, and don't kid yourself theres no place in Brooklyn thats close to WV...
"Prices are declining citywide as the protracted U.S. housing slump belatedly reached New York following upheaval in the financial sector. Cheaper, outlying sections of the city like Brooklyn are at relatively more risk than is the commercial and cultural center of Manhattan during such times, said Jonathan Miller, CEO of appraisal firm Miller Samuel."
Are people like Dibs regressing from just ignorant and stupid to full blown retarted?
Posted by: cornerbodega at January 15, 2009 11:19 AM
Fsrg,
I don't think you quite understand that the economic crisis is most likely going to have a significant impact on the way Americans live their lives. People are downsizing, they are realizing what is truly important in life and they are spending their money more wisely. They are also CRAVING a sense of community lost in the past couple decades due to greed, money and power. People are looking to simplify their lives. That's what I'm hearing from nearly everyone.
There will of course be people interested in apartment buildings with all the bells and whistles, but I think that those people are a smaller group than they were 5 years ago.
We talk here about how ugly some of these buildings going up are...you think they're ugly now...?? Wait 10 years. Unless they are something special or designed by someone of note, they are going to be dated, ugly white boxes in the sky.
I think as people become more careful with their money they will use it towards things of higher quality. I know a few people moving to NYC in the next couple months, abandoning their 3000sf homes out of state for 800sf apartments in NYC and couldn't be more thrilled about it. This is purely anecdotal of course, but I think brownstones will fare quite well because they are on the receiving end of the very real sense of community that they foster and the somewhat perceived sense of quality that they harbor.
(We all know they are money pits to a certain extent, but they are undoubtedly constructed of higher quality than most things built today and certainly contain elements of incredibly artistry as seen by yesterday's woodwork in the HOTD)
P.s. I never want to live in a building with an elevator.
Posted by: 11217 at January 15, 2009 11:23 AM
Fsrq, as Wasder said, this is a blog about brownstones. Why even be here if you find them so awful?
And again, there are people who want to live in brownstones, and those who don't. Those who do are not going to rush over to some condobox turned rental, just because it is now a rental. It's more than just basic shelter issues or price, it's a lifestyle and aesthetic choice. The demand for brownstone apartments will stay current, or may even go up, as more and more condos go rental. Not everyone wants to live in a new apartment, especially many of the bland, cookie cutter, white boxes that are going rental.
Posted by: Montrose Morris at January 15, 2009 11:24 AM
definition of irony: calling someone retarded and misspelling the word.
Posted by: Frederick Law Homestead at January 15, 2009 11:25 AM
"retarted?"
If you are going to throw this word around might as well spell it correctly bodega. Kind of hurts your point otherwise.
Posted by: wasder at January 15, 2009 11:26 AM
"however the diversity of manhattan doesnt really mean the diversity lives there. All those Nigerians on 28th street certainly dont live there."
My brother is a commerical photogrpaher who lives in his studio in Chinatown. He's black.
Posted by: East New York at January 15, 2009 11:27 AM
"Are people like Dibs regressing from just ignorant and stupid to full blown retarted?"
QOTD!
The What
Someday this war is gonna end..
Posted by: Return of The What at January 15, 2009 11:29 AM
Damn you FLH!!! Beat me to the punch.
Posted by: wasder at January 15, 2009 11:29 AM
See what the housing bubble did to a person like davanbedsty? Hw was just a regular size ass then the free money he got from the backs turned him into a giant ass just to match his ego. You need a government bailout too. Is that why hearing the truth makes you get so upset. don't woory what is the worst that could happen to you, You get forclosed and someone smarter and not as greedy as you buys your home at forclosed prices.
Posted by: hannible at January 15, 2009 11:29 AM
cornerbodega so eloquently states his case yet again.
"Theres already deals in the West Village, and don't kid yourself theres no place in Brooklyn thats close to WV..."
I have seen some streets in brooklyn that are as dirty as those in the WV (and the EV) but they are usually not flooded with tourists, sex shops and fast food outlets. The main eyesore on a Brooklyn street would be, yup you got it, a corner bodega!!!
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at January 15, 2009 11:31 AM
"commercial photographer" - going too fast.
Posted by: East New York at January 15, 2009 11:32 AM
FWIW, count me as one of the people who would rather rent in a brownstone than in one of the gazillion newly built condos in my area, even if the prices were exactly the same.
Hell, I'd be willing to pay a bit more to live in the brownstone.
Posted by: cwbuecheler at January 15, 2009 11:33 AM
"I don't think you quite understand that the economic crisis is most likely going to have a significant impact on the way Americans live their lives. People are downsizing, they are realizing what is truly important in life and they are spending their money more wisely. They are also CRAVING a sense of community lost in the past couple decades due to greed, money and power. People are looking to simplify their lives. That's what I'm hearing from nearly everyone. "
11217;
I think you're on to something here. One of the truly amazing things about NYC is how it has managed to announce that previous reports of its death are greatly exaggerated.
It is amazing to me how this city has gone through various crises, the most recent one being 9/11, and rejuvenated itself. At the beginning of the 20th century, Buffalo, NY was the 4th largest city in the US. Where is Buffalo today, and where is NYC?
When this financial crisis started getting underway, I was certain that it would have a huge negative impact on NYC, it being the center of the financial world. I'm sure it will suffer from the shock waves that are still coming from the debacle. The movement you describe above, however, may allow NYC to once again renew itself.
Posted by: benson at January 15, 2009 11:37 AM
hannible...before you venture into the world of homeownership you'd better make sure you know what you are doing. My 45% LTV (look it up) and 100% equity in other properties is something you need to strive for if you ever mature.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at January 15, 2009 11:38 AM
May last tenant left in 2007, but in the seven years I rented the apartment in my Crown Heights Victorian brick house, I refrained from raising the rent when I had a responsible, professional tenants whom I got along with. I'd rented may places myself previously and knew how to treat people. I know other small Brooklyn landlords, some of whom are family, who are equally generous, far more so than any large company would ever be. In my experience, in Brooklyn, a brownstone owned by a "small" landlord (a responsible one, that is) is almost always the better deal for the renter.
Posted by: East New York at January 15, 2009 11:42 AM
MM - when did this blog become about Brownstones? 90+% of the posts are about condos, restaurants, housing market in general etc....
That being said - we are talking about how will the rental downturn affect renting in Brooklyn in general and and in Brownstones specifically. My opinion on Brownstones is irrelevant to that market discussion. If you just want smoke blown up your a$$ about how immune Brownstones are to sales/rental pressures then skip my posts.
I also never said people wouldnt rent Brownstone apartments - what I said is that generally on an apartment to apartment comparison - the pros and cons favor multi-family buildings over user-created apartments in small buildings (for lack of a better term of classification) - THEREFORE the flood of new rentals WILL push Brownstone rentals down.
Sure there are many pros to living in a Brownstone but you certainly must concede that these charms are inherently LESS significant to the renter (who after all lives at-will in a non-RS apartment) then the owner (or potential owner)
BTW 11217 - I never said anything about "bells and whistles" - although apparently some here consider 125yr old elevator technology to be a major (an unwanted) innovation. I am not comparing 1PP to a 3rd fl Brownstone rental.
I also think it is sad that you believe "community" can only be formed in neighborhoods consisting of 19th Century row houses. Frankly I know plenty of neighborhoods all across this city that are made up of primarily apartment buildings that have more street life and more "community" then many of the Brownstone neighborhoods represented here.
I also think you have truly drunk the punch if you think the people who are moving from 3000sq ft homes in the suburbs are going to come to NYC to rent an 800sq ft apartment in a walkup Brownstone.
Stop being so defensive and try to look at the marketplace objectively.
Posted by: fsrg at January 15, 2009 11:43 AM
oh count me in on someone who would NEVER want to use an elevator. i use one at work, tht's enough! ive for the most part only lived in apt buildings most of life, but somehow always managed to live within walking distance of floors so it's never been an issue. plus i dont want to be cooped up an an elevator with my dog and strangers! i dont know how many of you are familiar with an elevator fart, but no thank you. stairs for me please!
*rob*
Posted by: PitbullNYC at January 15, 2009 11:43 AM
I faced the house/big building decision last year when picking a place to rent until prices come down to the point that I want to buy.
The choice came down to either half of a victorian house or a newly refurbished apartment in a big building.
The house had bags of charm and about 25-30% more space while the big building apartment was functional, had a lift and doorman, and all-round very "efficient".
The big building won out in the end. Although we loved the Victorian, it was a place that we would want to own and do up and since we are transitory we preferred the no-hassle approach.
Posted by: the chicken at January 15, 2009 11:43 AM
Benson,
I have no doubt NYC will continue to be a thriving city. When talking to friends, family and colleagues across the country, I can feel the tide turning. People have become very aware of their impact on the earth, are fed up with paying 500 a month to heat and cool their homes, they know gas prices aren't going to stay where they are forever and they know they need to do something about it.
I'm not saying everyone is going to move to NYC, but I am saying that a lot of people seem to be re-evaluating their life and looking at what's really important.
I think people are coming to the conclusion that it's not the "space" you occupy that makes you happy. It's everything outside that space. I will happily live in a small space my whole life to feel the kind of energy and connection I feel with other human beings by living in a city like NYC.
Posted by: 11217 at January 15, 2009 11:46 AM
11217 - ignoring the "expense" of new construction (vs occupying an existing building) - in EVERYWAY a multi-family apartment building is more ecologically efficient than any Victorian Brownstone - sorry but true.
Posted by: fsrg at January 15, 2009 11:50 AM
We've had this argument here before, but having a doorman is actually a negative, not a "perk", in my opinion. It means your rent is higher AND you have to tip more people at xmas, not to mention the creepiness of having some random dude know everything about your life.
Posted by: cwbuecheler at January 15, 2009 11:51 AM
"I also think you have truly drunk the punch if you think the people who are moving from 3000sq ft homes in the suburbs are going to come to NYC to rent an 800sq ft apartment in a walkup Brownstone."
Didn't drink any punch. I can tell you 2 families I know who are in the process right this very moment. One found a 2 bedroom in South Slope yesterday (in a brownstone) and will be signing the lease in the next day or two. They are coming from the Southwest. The other family is moving here from Florida and looking ONLY at brownstone apartments in Park Slope or Carroll Gardens. I know this because I'm helping both families with their search.
Not saying everyone is doing it, but that's 7 people I know moving to NYC in the next month. Both of which living in 3000 sf homes in suburban locations and got fed up. They were lucky to find jobs here despite the economic conditions.
Posted by: 11217 at January 15, 2009 11:51 AM
There are certainly renters out there who are willing to go out of their way to rent in a brownstone.
I'm not one of them though, and I think renters in general are much less likely to be concerned about the type of building they rent in.
I'm renting on the 3rd floor of a brownstone now, but when I move, I want a 1st floor or an elevator. I've cheerfully lived in walkups for 12 of the last 16 years, but having a kid really changes your perspective on these things.
I expect to move later this year, and it is looking more and more like I will be looking for another rental instead of a purchase (market is scaring the heck out of me).
If Manhattan prices drop enough or there are some really good deals on 12 month leases (e.g., no fee + 1 month free), I will definitely look in Manhattan.
We moved to Brooklyn because we were able to get a space we wanted for about 20% less than similar spaces in Manhattan.
The fact that the space was in a brownstone was just coincidence (we almost took a place in a newer brick building a few blocks away from our current place).
If Brooklyn doesn't offer us a financial benefit to renting here, I can't see the point in staying.
If/when I'm looking to buy a place, my thinking will be a little different -- Brooklyn does have some stronger appeal as a place to purchase a home in my opinion.
Posted by: northsloperenter at January 15, 2009 11:52 AM
"cornerbodega so eloquently states his case yet again.
I have seen some streets in brooklyn that are as dirty as those in the WV (and the EV) but they are usually not flooded with tourists, sex shops and fast food outlets. The main eyesore on a Brooklyn street would be, yup you got it, a corner bodega!!!"
Dibs, so obvious you have no clue. I'll leave it at that...
Posted by: cornerbodega at January 15, 2009 11:54 AM
And your point is????
Get back to stocking that detergent in the windows.
Retart
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at January 15, 2009 11:56 AM
people are also realizing they need to simplify their lives. Living in 3000 sqf causes you to fill it up with shit you dont need.
Posted by: Santa at January 15, 2009 11:57 AM
Can we make today Brownstoner, "Survivor" edition and vote someone off the island...?
I vote Cornerbodega.
Or Hannible.
Posted by: 11217 at January 15, 2009 11:58 AM
"Living in 3000 sqf causes you to fill it up with shit you dont need."
AND CAN'T AFFORD!!!!!!
Posted by: 11217 at January 15, 2009 11:59 AM
To whom it may concern,
Are people like Dibs regressing from just ignorant and stupid to full blown retarded?
Posted by: cornerbodega at January 15, 2009 12:00 PM
Different strokes for different folks. I love living in an old victorian. I've lived in big apartment buildings,, apartmentified victorian mansions and townhouses. I'll never for for the boxy modern building- just not the lifestyle I ant. Sure living in an old building has its inconveniences- but what's the big deal if any of us prefer one over the other? Seems to me there's room enough and people enough both both choices. Apples and oranges I think MM said. Apples and oranges.
Posted by: bxgrl at January 15, 2009 12:01 PM
"If Brooklyn doesn't offer us a financial benefit to renting here, I can't see the point in staying."
So Brooklyn's being prettier, less crowded, more relaxed, quieter, more friendly to small businesses and non-chain stores, more diverse, and more interesting than Manhattan has no bearing on your renting there?
Because those things certainly matter to me. If you gave me the same apartment, at the same price, in both boroughs, I'd absolutely take the one in Brooklyn. Manhattan's overrated.
Posted by: cwbuecheler at January 15, 2009 12:04 PM
Frsq, defensive much? I simply stated that there is a significant number of people who prefer to live in a row houses apartment, and the number of new rentals in new construction condo buildings is irrelevent to them. That shouldn't cause great controversy, or even garner comments about blowing smoke up my skirt. My comments had nothing to do with sales figures for brownstones, either, I was talking about renters.
See 11217's comments, he makes a lot of sense.
And this site started out talking about brownstones, renovation, architecture and historic preservation. It has morphed into more general real estate trends and observations, but the core of its readership has always been concerned about the former. A majority of people here are brownstone owners, or tenants/co-op/condo owners in pre-war buildings. Hello......most people here would prefer an older building, for lots of perfectly valid reasons that have less to do with price, and more to do with living the way they want to live.
Posted by: Montrose Morris at January 15, 2009 12:05 PM
I guess you brushed up on your spelling since the last post, cornerbodega. Good boy. Now try learning some mathematics.
11217...if we voted him off then the whole bell shaped curve of intelligence would get a huge bump to the right.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at January 15, 2009 12:08 PM
cw...that should be QOTD. And don't let MrsCWB tell you otherwise.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at January 15, 2009 12:09 PM
"most people here would prefer an older building, for lots of perfectly valid reasons that have less to do with price, and more to do with living the way they want to live."
Well said MM. It would appear that fsrg wants to impose what he/she thinks should be what people want and need in an apartment. And to say that Brownstoner.com is not about Brownstones is quite silly.
Posted by: wasder at January 15, 2009 12:10 PM
Folks;
Just to digress for a moment to the topic that 11217 brought up before.
Some years ago,I happened to come upon a book entitled "The Return of Thrift",published in 1996:
http://www.amazon.com/RETURN-THRIFT-Collapse-Welfare-Reawaken/dp/0684823004
At the time it was published, the book didn't make a big splash, but I would heartily recommend it to all. It's not one of these books that try to predict the timing of a stock or housing market crash. Rather, it talks on a macroeconomic level about the unsustainability of our previous economy, one based upon susbsidized consumption. Its conclusion is that sooner or later it would have to collapse under its own weight, ushering in a new era of thrift. The book is uncanny in its prescience.
Sorry to digress. Back to rentals!
Posted by: benson at January 15, 2009 12:16 PM
I'm with cwb on that. tried living in Manhattan once. HATED it. MM is certainly right about brownstone living- I think the great appeal of Brooklyn is brownstone living. And tho I don't like carrying tons of heavy stuff up 2 flights of stairs, it's good exercise ( especially after the lie-down and nap).
frankly, I don't think anyone knows for sure what will happen. We're making educated guesses (and not even agreeing on those).My own (very uneducated) fweeling is that some landlords will have more leeway to go down if they want. But it would be unrealistic for a tenant to expect that- the economy tanked but I don't see mortgage holders rushing to lower the mortgages and fees for landlords. Those expenses aren't going down.
Posted by: bxgrl at January 15, 2009 12:19 PM
I never limited the conversation to new buildings - Multi-Family apartment buildings INCLUDE pre and post war buildings.
Wasder - please tell me how many of the last 50 entries on Brwnstoner.com are brownstone specific.
You may not like it but new development, restaurant reviews and general RE market entries outnumber Brownstone specific entries/discussions by of a factor of at least 10X
Posted by: fsrg at January 15, 2009 12:21 PM
Sorry - had to do some work. So let me see if I have the jist of this so far:
Rents in Manhattan will come down but not in Brownstone Brooklyn because it's really awesome. We know this because of
a) 11217 knows 2 people from the southwest who are looking for an apt
b) Elevators suck
c) People in Manhattan are douchebags.
Posted by: dirty_hipster at January 15, 2009 12:25 PM
once studios in the financial district and 1k a pop i'm moving there. The pools and gyms may be gone at that point tho.
Posted by: Santa at January 15, 2009 12:31 PM
"Wasder - please tell me how many of the last 50 entries on Brwnstoner.com are brownstone specific."
Hard to put a specific percentage on it fsrg but I would guess that approximately 60% of my last 50 posts here are specific to the ins and outs of Brownstone living. Having recently bought one I post alot about the house and the immediate surroundings. I also post alot about Clinton Hill in general as that is where I live. Clinton Hill as you may or may not know is composed almost exclusively of brownstone houses so posts about my neighborhood also have a correlation to brownstones. Why do you ask?
Posted by: wasder at January 15, 2009 12:33 PM
DIBS - thanks. I lived in Manhattan for three years and by the end of it I was seriously thinking about leaving the city altogether. Moving to Brooklyn has really reinvigorated my love for New York. I like having Manhattan nearby, but my attitude is very much "nice place to visit ... wouldn't want to live there" these days. :)
Also, my response to northsloperenter sounds a little more combative than I wanted it to. I just thought it was curious that the only reason he/she is renting in Brooklyn was price. For me, the decision was about much more than that.
Posted by: cwbuecheler at January 15, 2009 12:36 PM
"You may not like it but new development, restaurant reviews and general RE market entries outnumber Brownstone specific entries/discussions by of a factor of at least 10X"
10x is a big exaggeration but I also never said this site was only about brownstones. Its about life in brownstone neighborhoods which means various aspects of that lifestyle (restaurants, development, crime, parks whatever). My only objection or contention with what you wrote is that coming on this site and talking about how Brownstones are not as nice to live in as large rental buildings is a bit of a quixotic exercise.
Posted by: wasder at January 15, 2009 12:36 PM
I welcome a new era of thrift. The amount of waste in this country is horrifying. One only needs to see the amount of garbage generated in this city, and multiply that by everyone in the country. We buy way too much crap that has no function, little shelf life, and is poorly made. Ditto for our clothing, too.
Relating back to Victorian homes, I see many similarities to the end of the Victorian era, where everything was overdone, overwrought, and overproduced, to it's eventual ending in the simplicity and clean lines of the Craftsman/Arts and Crafts movement. I welcome a return of craftmanship in furniture and decor, and the whole mindset of reusing what you have, recovering furniture, buying flea market finds, and repurposing what's in your home.
I think we are going to see more people sewing their clothing, or shopping for vintage, or just spending their money on good, basic pieces, not lots of throw away trendy junk. McMansions and huge, heat sucking homes are already a thing of the past, and those who have them are going to be hard pressed to sell them.
I think a return to sanity in our lives is long overdue. Historically, periods of great excess are always followed by periods of austerity, whether by choice or not. We are moving into one now, and better to embrace it, than cling to our junk.
Posted by: Montrose Morris at January 15, 2009 12:39 PM
There was a really great article in the Times yesterday about this very subject as it pertains to France, MM.
Did you see it...?
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/15/fashion/15paris.html?scp=1&sq=luxury%20france&st=cse
Posted by: 11217 at January 15, 2009 12:43 PM
speaking of france and thrift has anyone seen the incredibly wonderful french documentary by Agnes Varda "The Gleaners?" Its quite apropos of this discussion.
Posted by: wasder at January 15, 2009 12:48 PM
Wasder - no exaggeration - count'em
And what I said is that purposed apartments (i.e. those found in apartment buildings) are generally more desirable FOR RENTERS than those created in Brownstones (and rental prices bear this out) - which is why despite the wishful thinking exhibited here, the flood of new condo-to-rental-buildings will be bad for Brownstone LLs.
Posted by: fsrg at January 15, 2009 12:49 PM
And what I am saying is that coming on a board called Brownstoner and talking about how people would rather rent new construction rather than brownstone apts is not going to be a very satisfactory argument for you.
Posted by: wasder at January 15, 2009 12:51 PM
"despite the wishful thinking exhibited here, the flood of new condo-to-rental-buildings will be bad for Brownstone LLs."
And what is your investment in disabusing us of this wishful thinking? As a Brownstone LL I certainly hope for sustained rental prices but I can't say for sure that they won't come down a lot. If they do come down there will be many factors, supply being one of them but not the only (or even the most important) factor.
Posted by: wasder at January 15, 2009 12:55 PM
Looks to me that about 70% of articles on Brownstoner are directly or indirectly related to Brownstone living.
The rest are usually about Williamsburg or Dumbo.
Posted by: 11217 at January 15, 2009 1:00 PM
Wasder - "And what is your investment in disabusing us of this wishful thinking?"
I think most people prefer to discuss reality rather than self-delusion - clearly you are not one of those people - I am sorry if I bursted your bubble - please skip my posts from now on.
Posted by: fsrg at January 15, 2009 1:01 PM
Interesting article, 11217. The world is going to have to do with less for a while. I think that industries that are built on catering to our excesses are going to have to work the hardest to reinvent themselves in order to survive. This is the hard part to this new austerity. It is not the fault of caterers, florists, party planners, interior decorators, etc, etc that the party is over. They wisely built businesses on filling the needs that an exhuberant public had, and that is the quintessentional success story the world over. People's livelihoods are tied up in these jobs, and I hope new roads can be paved with new jobs.
I was watching the Newshour last night, with a frightening interview with Cheney, but that's another story. Another story involved interviewing various economic pundits, the gloomiest of whom said that joblessness will reach 25% of the population. He was the only one to have that dire a prediction, but that's a lot of people. We are going to have to scale our lifestyles wayyyy back, even those of us, and I do not include myself here, because I am really felling it, who are doing really well. Karl Lagerfeld is due a good comeuppance here. He has no idea what is going on in the real world.
Posted by: Montrose Morris at January 15, 2009 1:01 PM
11217 - yeah if talking about restaurants, new developments and the general housing market = "brownstone living"
Posted by: fsrg at January 15, 2009 1:02 PM
"And what I am saying is that coming on a board called Brownstoner and talking about how people would rather rent new construction rather than brownstone apts is not going to be a very satisfactory argument for you."
While I do prefer living in a brownstone, to argue because you prefer something, everyone else does isn't really a satisfactory arguement either.
Posted by: dirty_hipster at January 15, 2009 1:04 PM
I agree MM. The quotes by Karl Lagerfeld were so...well Karl Lagerfeld.
We are just at the VERY beginning of the scaling back process. With the country losing jobs like crazy right now, people who want to scale back might not even be able to because they are just trying to cling to what they have right now.
Think about all those MILLIONS of people who moved to the Sun Belt over the last decade and bought those energy sucking houses in the deserts of Phoenix, Las Vegas, etc. Many of them are trapped. Their houses are worth half, their electricity costs are through the roof and they now find themselves in cities which were born of the notion that bigger is better.
We don't hear about the shift as much yet, because those people aren't yet packing up in any serious numbers (my few friends aside) because they are just trying to figure out what comes next.
I guarantee you though, that a lot of people feel trapped right now in a lifestyle which they now realize is not sustainable for the long run.
It won't be until the economy turns around that many of these same people will be able to do anything about it though.
This is not a blip, I don't think. This is an earth shattering tectonic plate shift that will reshape the way people view their lives all over the world.
I think so anyway. I also think that it's necessary, and will ultimately be a great thing for the human race.
Posted by: 11217 at January 15, 2009 1:09 PM
"And what I said is that purposed apartments (i.e. those found in apartment buildings) are generally more desirable FOR RENTERS than those created in Brownstones (and rental prices bear this out) -"
Show us the numbers, fsrq. "More desirable" is a judgment you're making about what renters want. You don't speak for us, and you'll have to prove why you think this affects rental prices. What I can tell you is that as a renter I am willing to put up with a lot of "inconveniences" to live in a place with 2 fireplaces and huge bay windows with gobs of gorgeous sunlight, loads of wood detail and an original clawfoot tub.
Posted by: bxgrl at January 15, 2009 1:12 PM
I can't see Karl Lagerfeld cutting back on antique Japanese fans, ever. Did you know that he has 75 ipods???
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at January 15, 2009 1:17 PM
No "generally more desirable" is a judgment about rental rates of size comparable apartments located within different housing stock in the same neighborhood - brownstone apartments typically rent for less - as do walk-ups - any competent RE rental broker will tell you the same thing
Posted by: fsrg at January 15, 2009 1:17 PM
"So Brooklyn's being prettier, less crowded, more relaxed, quieter, more friendly to small businesses and non-chain stores, more diverse, and more interesting than Manhattan has no bearing on your renting there?"
Sure it does.
But Manhattan being closer to work, a more convenient place to live without a car, better shopping (except for Target, of course), and a more convenient place for non-Brooklyn friends to visit has a bearing as well.
When I look for an apartment to rent I start with "I am willing to pay X and live in areas Y and Z" and then I look around to see what's the best I can get for X.
In my case, areas Y and Z are likely to be park slope, brooklyn heights, carroll gardens, cobble hill, greenwich village, chelsea, murray hill, gramercy, parts of midtown, maybe parts of UES/UWS.
Posted by: northsloperenter at January 15, 2009 1:19 PM
northsloperenter -
Fair enough. I don't think I'll ever voluntarily live in Manhattan again, but it does certainly have some advantages for many people.
Posted by: cwbuecheler at January 15, 2009 1:37 PM
"I am sorry if I bursted your bubble"---fsrg--you didn't bursted anything. I am one of the most reasonable, and realistic posters on this board. If you have ever read anything I have written you will see that I am in no way a person living in a bubble and I weigh many sides of many issues. I just find it comical that you are coming on Brownstoner with this particular line of reasoning.
"to argue because you prefer something, everyone else does isn't really a satisfactory arguement either." I argued nothing of the sort. I completely acknowledge that there are many people who would prefer living in a luxury hi-rise than a brownstone. They just wouldn't be too likely to be posting here on Brownstoner. I am happy that everyone has different needs and preferences and certainly have no desire to impose mine on anyone else. But a site called Brownstoner could reasonably be assumed to be a bastion of people who love brownstones, no?
Posted by: wasder at January 15, 2009 1:41 PM
"Fsrq, as Wasder said, this is a blog about brownstones. Why even be here if you find them so awful?"
MM - this blog is about all Brooklyn real estate; look at the headlines: brownstones, hi-rises (new construction & old), coops, "horror show" sections. If you don't like our comments, why don't you ask Mr. B to ONLY write about brownstones?
--------
DIBS - I find it unbelievable that when people tell you that not everyone wants to live in a brownstone, you try to convince them otherwise and in a not so mature way.
Posted by: Gravis at January 15, 2009 1:44 PM
And fsrg you didn't answer my question. What is your investment in disabusing brownstone owners of the rental value of their homes? I am genuinely curious.
Posted by: wasder at January 15, 2009 1:46 PM
Gravis...I never said that everyone should live in a brownstone. Where in the hell did you pull that one out of??? Please, cite the reference and make sure its in context.
Christ, the loons we must put up with here are are just ridiculous.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at January 15, 2009 1:53 PM
Hey, Gravis, take a breath, ok? I'm not complaining about Mr. B's choice of topics here. I'm a big girl, I can choose to read what I want, and not read what I'm not interested in, and I do so daily. Since I don't see any of your comments here in "our comments", what's your problem?
My original point, long, long ago, was to say that renters of new and old apartments are apples and oranges. Some people like one kind, others another. The new availability of new construction condo apartments would have little impact on those who would prefer a brownstone apartment, or even a pre-war apartment building apartment. I don't see the controversy in that, or the reason for you and fsrq to get your backs up, and hackles raised. You don't have to agree with me, but there is no reason to act as if I made some wildly heretical statement.
I also don't see where you have been around long enough to make any kind of statement about the history of this blog, unless you've been here forever and recently changed your log in. If that is the case, then you certainly know this blog is intricately tied to brownstones, the neighborhoods they are in, and the lifestyles, problems and joys therein. This is a stupid thing to fight over.
Posted by: Montrose Morris at January 15, 2009 1:59 PM
Are you calling me a racist because I choose to live in a brownstone hi-rise?
Posted by: bayridgegirl at January 15, 2009 2:00 PM
DIBS,
This forum is not your private party, so you don't have to put up with anyone.
Posted by: Gravis at January 15, 2009 2:01 PM
Wasder - I am "invested" in speaking honestly, nothing more nothing less, as far as I am personally concerned I hope your Brnstone rental goes up every year no matter what happens in the wider market - but my good wishes for you have no bearing on what is going to happen.
Posted by: fsrg at January 15, 2009 2:01 PM
God, everyone is so touchy today. I don't find anything fsrq said to be that far off from the cold hard truth.
Posted by: dirty_hipster at January 15, 2009 2:01 PM
"My original point, long, long ago, was to say that renters of new and old apartments are apples and oranges. Some people like one kind, others another. The new availability of new construction condo apartments would have little impact on those who would prefer a brownstone apartment, or even a pre-war apartment building apartment. I don't see the controversy in that..."
no controversy - it is just false and easily demonstrated since all over this city for decade after decade the rents of both types of rentals move in direct correlation to each other (except where rent controls prevent it)
Posted by: fsrg at January 15, 2009 2:06 PM
Gravis.....why don't you add something to the discussion like we all have done above.
When you attack someone in particular and call names, expect that you will get it back, especially when you have no clue what you are talking about.
Otherwise STFU and have a nice day.
christopher, our newest poster, Gravis here is an example of one of the many "loons."
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at January 15, 2009 2:07 PM
It would seem that most people who visit this site prefer brownstone living. I think it is fair to say however, that the site is about "Brownstone Brooklyn" which includes the apartment buildings, ugly white condos in the sky, restaurants, fedders boxes, construction sites, hipsters, asshats, bitter renters, stroller pushers and corner bodegas that surround our beloved brownstones.
Posted by: boofer at January 15, 2009 2:10 PM
fsrq seems to state quite succinctly what his opinion is and it seems pretty logical to me.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at January 15, 2009 2:10 PM
Hey Retards! There is a code Red alert! Kalifornia is insolvent!!!!!!!!!!!!
Facing Budget Gap, Schwarzenegger Urges Lawmakers to Bridge Divide
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123203902648986141.html
SACRAMENTO, Calif. -- With the state facing fiscal collapse, California Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger will urge lawmakers today to put aside partisan differences to close the state's ballooning budget gap.
"There is no course left open to us but this: to work together, to sacrifice together, to think of the common good, not our individual good," Mr. Schwarzenegger plans to say at his sixth State of the State address, according to advanced excerpts of the speech.
The Republican governor is facing his biggest challenge since voters chose him to replace Democrat Gray Davis in a 2003 recall election. Over the next 18 months, California faces a $42 billion budget deficit, due in part to declining tax revenues in a state hit especially hard by the economic downturn.
More imminently, the state is projected to run out of cash in weeks, which may require it to delay tax refunds and other payments starting Feb. 1. "The reality is that our state is incapacitated until we resolve the budget crisis," Mr. Schwarzenegger plans to say.
Yepp and what do you say about the "value" of your Brownstones?? You are in serious trouble and you retards are going to get smashed real hard! I love the comments from the delusional side of things with DIBS being "Head Cheerleader"!
Say Buh bye...
The What
Someday this war is gonna end...
Posted by: Return of The What at January 15, 2009 2:11 PM
"fsrq seems to state quite succinctly what his opinion is and it seems pretty logical to me."
Way to show me up with your sweet vocabulary bro.
Posted by: dirty_hipster at January 15, 2009 2:12 PM
As sad as the picture is that boofer paints, he has hit the nail on the head.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at January 15, 2009 2:12 PM
Montorse get back in here!!! QOTD might not be yours after all.
Posted by: bayridgegirl at January 15, 2009 2:15 PM
What...please stick to what you have repeated the last few days and don't engage us Asshats.
What happened to the old "fucktard" term anyway???
Thanks for the cut and past that anyone can see on yahoo all day.
Someday these loons will be extinct.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at January 15, 2009 2:15 PM
Thanks dibs..btw I'm a young lady.
Posted by: boofer at January 15, 2009 2:17 PM
Nice to meet you boofer. A word to the wise: Stay away from those other ladies: BRG, bxgrl, cobblehiller. They'll just bring you down.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at January 15, 2009 2:19 PM
Ok, I get what the point is about how more big building rentals coming on the market could impact brownstone rents. But I am wondering if there really are that many in the nabes with fairly short commutes to Manhattan--except for the rezoned Williamburg waterfront and a strip along 4th avenue. For anyone looking in Brooklyn Heights/Cobble Hill/Carroll Gardens/Park Slope/Fort Greene etc. I don't see a huge glut all of a sudden. I know there are SOME condos going rental, but I still think rents won't be softening dramatically anytime soon. Geez, if they would, I might go through the trouble of moving, piano and all.
Posted by: Carol Gardens at January 15, 2009 2:22 PM
"I am "invested" in speaking honestly, nothing more nothing less, as far as I am personally concerned I hope your Brnstone rental goes up every year no matter what happens in the wider market - but my good wishes for you have no bearing on what is going to happen."
Fsrg--thanks for that. I don't need the rental income to go up every year at all, just not to plummet to mortgage-challenging levels. If my current tenants want to stick around for another year at the same amount I will be happy to have them because I like them. And really, I am not one of these people who is trying to say that real estate can't go down. Clearly if manhattan is suffering brooklyn will suffer too and probably worse. The question is, vis a vis Brooklyn, whether any of the cache of Brownstone living protects the rental value and sales value of these homes. We all have alot riding on that financially.
Posted by: wasder at January 15, 2009 2:24 PM
dibs, about those thousands of condos... I am not far off.
On 4th Avenue, the zoning for these buildings pretty much is the same and all of them have btw 110 and 125 units. Three have been converted to rentals, and three more are in the final stages of construction with status unknown. More likely rentals tho. The Novo has many apts for rent.
Elsewhere, One Hansen has decided to rent the leftovers. Not familiar with wburg but haven't any number of those new condos been put up for rent? And the many small mid-block developments are almost all being put up for rent everywhere.
We can argue about the numbers but there are more new rentals coming to Brooklyn than there have been in decades. Not necessarily a bad thing, declining rents benefit renters!
Posted by: denton at January 15, 2009 2:26 PM
"Relating back to Victorian homes, I see many similarities to the end of the Victorian era, where everything was overdone, overwrought, and overproduced, to it's eventual ending in the simplicity and clean lines of the Craftsman/Arts and Crafts movement."
MM, I'm a big fan of Arts and Crafts and all my furniture is such.
But if everyone scales back like you say we'll get that 25% unemployment you mention.
Posted by: denton at January 15, 2009 2:31 PM
Piano moving is not fun...
Posted by: Amzi Hill at January 15, 2009 2:32 PM
DIBS - I add to discussions whenever I want and can while at work. If I have little clue, I use words "may be", "I guess", etc. I wonder what names I used when "calling names". My response to you is retaliatory: every other post by you offends either people who live in a non-brownstone home, not in the brownstone part of Brooklyn, new to the site, or don't agree with you. I belong to all those groups. It's not your private party so don't "STFU" anyone here.
No need to respond.
Posted by: Gravis at January 15, 2009 2:35 PM
Gravis...you still there???? Helllloooooo??? Looking for you to come back at me with something remotely intelligent and understandable and perhaps even answering my question.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at January 15, 2009 2:36 PM
"The question is, vis a vis Brooklyn, whether any of the cache of Brownstone living protects the rental value and sales value of these homes."
Of course but only compared to previous downturns - only an idiot would say that no effect will come from the remarkable transformation in
Brooklyn, the (hopefully permanent) renewed interest in urban living (including a rising appreciation of Brownstones), as well as the economic and demographic changes in America.
But Brooklyn (and its Brownstone rentals) are still part of the broader market and will be adversely affected by a decline in rental rates as well as a flood of new rental apartments coming on-line. What will the precise decline be or how much will the correlation between multi-family and brownstone rent/sale prices be affected by current trends?- there is no one on this planet that can offer anything more than a guess.
Posted by: fsrg at January 15, 2009 2:37 PM
Denton, I sincerely hope not. Hopefully, a middle ground is found, new industries and jobs created.
I am fond of A&C, too. I own next to none, but greatly admire the movement and the whole philosophy. I have only a couple of small decorative pieces, no furniture, though there is much that I would love to have.
Posted by: Montrose Morris at January 15, 2009 2:42 PM
Gravis...I asked you a simple question when you came at me. Where have I ever said that I believe everyone should live in a brownstone.
I have no animosity for anyone because of where they live and have never said such with the exception of some snarky back and forth joking.
i suspect that your bigger issue is that you have no sense of humor and can't separate when people are serious and when they are being facetious.
Please, I'm still waiting for an intelligent answer to your first (useless to the discussion at hand) post.
Always glad to have new posters here but not so much when they are just plain assholes and even worse, stupid ones.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at January 15, 2009 2:43 PM
"What will the precise decline be or how much will the correlation between multi-family and brownstone rent/sale prices be affected by current trends?- there is no one on this planet that can offer anything more than a guess."
Truer words never spoken, although our friend Brownstones Half Off will doubtlessly tell you otherwise.
Posted by: wasder at January 15, 2009 2:44 PM
In the 1890s the country was in the same boat as it today.. Brooklyn had way too many brownstones like we do condos... Most new brownstones in the mid 1890 became rentals. Also the country had starting cutting back on overdoing anything even down to fashion... This always happens look at the baroque to rococo to neoclassical architecture...
Posted by: Amzi Hill at January 15, 2009 2:44 PM
MM - I agree with you mostly, but %80 is not what I was talking about. The phrase I quoted as well as you pulling your seniority here shows that this blog is a private party.
Posted by: Gravis at January 15, 2009 2:48 PM
"although our friend Brownstones Half Off will doubtlessly tell you otherwise."
- yes but ignoring the misplaced certainty - his/her guess is as good as anyone elses
Posted by: fsrg at January 15, 2009 2:49 PM
I'm not pulling seniority of any sort. I've never even been QOTD. It's no private party. Anyone can say anything they want, no matter how stupid it sounds.
2:48 post is hard to read and doesn't make any sense. Are you in a bar?? If so, all is forgiven. Otherwise my original STFU stands.
Otherwise please make a relevant comment about the Brooklyn rental market.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at January 15, 2009 2:53 PM
Private party? Don't be ridiculous, Gravis, this is as public a forum as any.
My "seniority" may be on my driver's license, compared to many here, but that's about it. Anything else is in the eye of the beholder, and I can't do anything about that.
I hope you stick around, new people are always welcome to this freeforall. Everthing and everyone is fair game, here.
Posted by: Montrose Morris at January 15, 2009 2:59 PM
143 posts. Can't wait 'til I get home from work.
Preview: Lower rents in Manhattan will attract Brooklyn renters and create a void. This trend of tighter inventory in Brooklyn than Manhattan, if true, is temporary and unsustainable.
***Bid half off peak comps***
Posted by: Brownstones Half Off at January 15, 2009 2:59 PM
I'd really love to see some true inventory numbers for brownstones for sale vs. condos in high rises for sale. I certainly believe that the rental market is more fluid and substitutable or fungible. That is, in most cases, someone looking for a rental is very likely to consider either alternative.
I still stand by my perhaps-too-often-stated view that there are a lot of people out there in Manhattan with huge profits on condos that might want to consider a lifestyle change and opt for a brownstone. There are tens of thousands of such condo owners who could bank some profits and buyt a brownstone with money left over AND, lower their monthly expenses because taxes are lower, condo fees are eliminated and there might be additional renatl income.
When I firsat looked into this, that part was a no-brainer.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at January 15, 2009 3:05 PM
BHO, that assumes a sizable amount of people are only here because they are priced out of primo Manhattan. That ain't necessarily so. Rents and apartments in some parts of the UES have been available for some time, but people still came to Brooklyn. Could it be that's it's not all about the rent, or all about being in Manhattan?
Granted, there are those who agree with you, and will run back, but in terms of greatly affecting the market? I don't know...
Posted by: Montrose Morris at January 15, 2009 3:06 PM
MM...I came from the UES. You're right, it wasn't about those things. I wanted a big house with a yard. The economic aspects were merely sweeteners. I focused on Bed Stuy because I had done a few neighborhood pioneering moves through my 14 year stint in Chicago. It was aleways very enjoyable and profitable as well.
I had no illusions about the property market either. I knew my UES condo was in bubble price territory.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at January 15, 2009 3:10 PM
we'll find out how many condo buildings go rental in williamsburg - is it 1000? some of these developments are really small - just a few floors. the 2nd toll bros building on the waterfront surely won't be ready for quite some time, and that's probably the only building coming that's big, and who's to say that it will be a rental?
the edge is big, but they did already sell many units, and i don't believe that the building is going rental.
there is supposed to be a decent sized rental building going up on north driggs, but it's not started.
Posted by: wine lover at January 15, 2009 3:20 PM
"I focused on Bed Stuy because I had done a few neighborhood pioneering moves through my 14 year stint in Chicago."
Pioneering? Well I'm glad you find it enjoyable to explore "new" areas, but I think some people might have lived in Bed Stuy before you.
Posted by: dirty_hipster at January 15, 2009 3:22 PM
You know what I mean hipster. Don't start something. I'm all warmed up from the back and forth with gravis and I just got a new cup of coffee.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at January 15, 2009 3:26 PM
uh oh its on like donkey kong!
haha bad choice of words i know ;)
Posted by: dirty_hipster at January 15, 2009 3:28 PM
Wine lover,
I know you aren't going to believe this and research would need to be done, but I'm hearing a number closer to 5,000 of the number of new condos coming to the market in Williamsburg in the next 1-2 years.
I believe the North Side Piers and Edge alone is over 500 units. And there are about 50 other projects in various stages of development all over Williamsburg in the 20-150 unit range.
Posted by: 11217 at January 15, 2009 3:34 PM
Yeah 11217, I've heard as high as 5-6k but I think that takes into account Domino, which I cannot see how the developer can justify building that in the current economic climate. I think 3-4k is more realistic. Either way, that a bunch!
Posted by: dirty_hipster at January 15, 2009 3:44 PM
"A word to the wise: Stay away from those other ladies: BRG, bxgrl, cobblehiller. They'll just bring you down."
Hey! I resemble that remark!
"What I can tell you is that as a renter I am willing to put up with a lot of "inconveniences" to live in a place with 2 fireplaces and huge bay windows with gobs of gorgeous sunlight, loads of wood detail and an original clawfoot tub."
Watch that bxgrl, your LL is reading! She may raise your rent!
Posted by: cobblehiller at January 15, 2009 3:45 PM
I know people w/stable jobs and incomes who are (still) being priced out of Park Slope. Things can't be all that bad. Either that, or their landlords are in lala land and haven't yet realized how much things have changed because they haven't looked for a tenant in a few years.
Posted by: BrooklynButler at January 15, 2009 3:57 PM
Lower rents and lower home prices do have a silver lining for the city as a whole. They'll go a long way to erasing the tourist/foreigner/i-banker money that's dulled the city's reputation as a place where the best and the brightest come to make their mark
I work for a large media company, with a good reputation, but our business as a whole doesn't pay all that well. It's been hard in the past 5 years to attract talented young people, who may want to live in the city or hip parts of brooklyn. Then they learn that they'll have to pay upwards of 2k in manhattan and 1500 in brooklyn for a studio. In all but a half-dozen cities, you can rent a decent house or a swanky condo for that much.
If rents fall by 30-40 percent, then all of a sudden it becomes viable for a whole new set of talented people to live in NYC. we'll hurt for a while, true, but 20 years down the road if those people stay here, we'll have another Golden Age....
Posted by: Bolder at January 15, 2009 4:01 PM
Bolder...as ridiculous as many people will think this sounds, we'll have another Golden Age (Bubble) and it won't take another 20 years!!!!!
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at January 15, 2009 4:12 PM
"BHO, that assumes a sizable amount of people are only here because they are priced out of primo Manhattan. That ain't necessarily so. Rents and apartments in some parts of the UES have been available for some time, but people still came to Brooklyn."
I'd say it's a damn good assumption. As I said before in a similar thread months ago, Brooklyn is an extension of Manhattan, not the other way around.
"MM...I came from the UES. You're right, it wasn't about those things."
Yes it was. You didn't pick a townhouse in Bed Stuy over one on the UES. You traded "up" from expensive condo to affordable brownstone. You were priced out (by a long shot) of the UES townhouse market.
***Bid half off peak comps***
Posted by: Brownstones Half Off at January 15, 2009 9:53 PM
"Yes it was. You didn't pick a townhouse in Bed Stuy over one on the UES. You traded "up" from expensive condo to affordable brownstone. You were priced out (by a long shot) of the UES townhouse market."
Awwwwwww Just sweet! BHO nice PWNING!!
The What
Someday this war is gonna end..
Posted by: Return of The What at January 15, 2009 11:16 PM
BHO, from what little I know of DIBS, I'm sure he was quite capable of buying whatever he wants, including a townhouse on the UES. He chose Bed Stuy.
You seem to have trouble believing that anyone would choose Brooklyn over Manhattan. That's really too bad for you. Most people I talk to, renters and homeowners alike, wouldn't leave Brooklyn if Manhattan was having a cut rate sale. They love Brooklyn. Manhattan is many things, some great. But it is not the be all and end all of city living for all people.
Posted by: Montrose Morris at January 16, 2009 12:38 AM
"BHO, from what little I know of DIBS, I'm sure he was quite capable of buying whatever he wants, including a townhouse on the UES. He chose Bed Stuy."
MM how do you know that??!!! Plus you mean to tell us that someone Chosen Bed Stuy over UES??????????!!!!!!!!! RRRRIIIIGGGHHHTTTTTTTTTTT!
Posers..
The What
Someday this war is gonna end..
Posted by: Return of The What at January 16, 2009 9:27 AM
Latest Restaurant Additions
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Le Barricou
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