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January 9, 2009

Atlantic Yards Scaled Back, Gehry's Role in Question

atlantic-yards-webcam-0109.jpgAll three major newspapers are reporting that Forest City Ratner is scrambling to reduce the project's costs while continuing to claim that starchitect Frank Gehry is still on board. “Frank Gehry has not been removed from the project,” said Joe DePlasco, a spokesman for Forest City. “We are continuing to speak with many arena experts and working hard to find ways to build a world class venue in an incredibly difficult economic environment.” FCR has brought in "value engineering" firms, reports the Daily News, and Atlantic Yards report is saying that the arena could end up looking more like Newark's Prudential Center than the fanciful renderings of Gehry's circulated for the past couple of years. Sounds like another bait-and-switch. Or, as Gowanus Lounge put nicely, "it would seem Brooklyn was promised an SL-Class Mercedes, but now, it turns out that a Ford Focus may be delivered."
Atlantic Yards Developer Denies Removing Architect [NY Times]
Cutbacks for Arena, Architect May Go [NY Daily News]
Nets Arena To Be a Little Less Frank [NY Post]
ESDC: Gehry to Control Aesthetics [AY Report]
Photo from the Atlantic Yards webcam




Posted by Brownstoner at 9:31 AM | Comments (20)
Categories: Atlantic Yards

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It just keeps getting better and better, doesn't it?

Posted by: Schultz at January 9, 2009 10:20 AM

It's not the project that's scaled back, apparently, but the cost of the arena (and perhaps more).

Posted by: NormanOder at January 9, 2009 10:43 AM

Are the New York tax payers still paying for the Mercedes?

Posted by: Johnny at January 9, 2009 10:48 AM

Who cares what it looks like...just build it. I know that I'm very much in the minority of the people on this blog who are actually excited about the prospect of the Nets moving to Brooklyn, but I really believe that having an NBA team can raise the profile Brooklyn, nationally and internationally. I travel quite a bit on business, and when asked "where are you from" I always make it a point of saying "Brooklyn" as opposed to "New York". I was in Los Angeles at a Lakers game last month with a client and a friend of my client asked me where I was from and when I told him Brooklyn, his response was "Oh, the COOL part of New York...it will be even cooler when the Nets get there". Similarly, I was in Madrid last summer at a client dinner and when the subject matter of Brooklyn came up, I an older Spanish lawyer colleague said "It will be amazing when King James (LeBron James) arrives in the borough of Kings". Needless to say I was stunned (Nothwithstanding the fact that LeBron will most likely never come to the Nets), I don't think people realize how significantly a professional sports franchise can lift the profile of an entire city. Cities like Indianpolis (Colts), Nashville (Titans) and Portland (Blazers) which are actually small cities (certainly much smaller than Brooklyn) parceived as "major league" because of their sports franchises. I know this is not a popular sentiment and I don't mean to offensive or controversial...its just my opinion.

Posted by: FtGreeneCorey at January 9, 2009 11:03 AM

I agree with a lot of what you say Corey. But the problem is that the taxpayers are picking up the tab. We're giving Ratner $2 billion. The primary beneficiary of this largess is the owner of the Nets (Ratner) who will be playing in, literally, a stadium that the taxpayers (and Barclays) will be building him.

My suggestion to all pro-AY folks is this - lobby to end the taxpayer financing and invest your own money in FCR. If Ratner's plan makes economic sense you'll profit. However, since Ratner has a great deal of trouble attracting institutional investors, this says to me that the deal only makes economic sense if the New York taxpayers fund this with corporate welfare.

Posted by: Johnny at January 9, 2009 11:26 AM

Hi Johnny, I agree with you on the tax payer bit. What Ratner should focus on is building a scaled down arena more in the $400 million - $500 million neighborhood...in which case it would primarily be paid for by the Barclays naming rights. The city SHOULD be on the hook for the surrounding infastructure (roads, electricity, sewage, etc), but FCR should be responsible for paying for (and/or raising) the rest.

Posted by: FtGreeneCorey at January 9, 2009 11:32 AM

"Or, as Gowanus Lounge put nicely, 'it would seem Brooklyn was promised an SL-Class Mercedes, but now, it turns out that a Ford Focus may be delivered.'"

I just wanted to point out that the arena in Newark is actually a really nice sports-venue. It's certainly not as impressive-looking from the outside as the Gehry renderings of the proposed AY arena were, but it's not like Brooklyn would be getting a second-class facility if the arena is similar to the Prudential Center. The "Mercedes/Ford Focus" analogy isn't accurate. I know it's just hyperbole but if you're going to play that game it would be more like we were promised a Maybach and we're getting a Mercedes or something.

Posted by: casper2315 at January 9, 2009 12:02 PM

You're right Casper. A $400-$500 million dollar arena should be pretty nice. One of the BENEFITS of the recession is that it has reduced costs as well (for labor, materials, etc.), so $500 million could buy you a much better arena in 2009 than it could in 2007.

Posted by: FtGreeneCorey at January 9, 2009 12:16 PM

FtGreeneCorey,

Another problem with your thoughts on the arena have to do with location. There is no good reason to put a basketball arena in a congested downtown area that would benefit most from contextual development. Ratner can and should build this somewhere more suited for it, Coney Island comes to mind.

Of course the taxpayer issue is massive and is a huge problem. And now that he's dumping his starchitect, considering his Atlantic Mall what do you think this arena is going to look like, I'm imagining utter garbage.

Posted by: werner at January 9, 2009 12:21 PM

werner - Well that's, just, like, your opinion, man. I think MSG is in a pretty good location and is more accessible than, say, Nassau Veterans Memorial Coliseum. An arena at Atlantic Yards will be accessible to all sorts of busses, subways and commuter trains, and will be surrounded by other business and entertainment options. That is HIGHLY preferable to sticking it somewhere out of the way. Not to mention the myriad added benefits of making public transportation a much more attractive option than cars/parking.

Teams, ideally, move CLOSER to downtown areas, not away from them. See: Devils to Newark (from the Meadowlands), Orioles to downtown Baltimore (one of the most popular and most lauded sporting venues in the country), Astros to downtown Houston (from the Astrodome, which was further outside the city-center), and the success of teams such as the Cubs, Red Sox, Bears and others who play in urban centers as opposed to out-of-the-way locations.

Contrary to your opinion, there is every reason in the world for a team to build its arena or stadium in an urban area.

Posted by: casper2315 at January 9, 2009 12:35 PM

It would be a godsend if Gehry wasn't involved in this project...That look is so tired.

Posted by: davide5 at January 9, 2009 1:47 PM

I agree with Casper that the ideal location for these sorts of venues is an urban setting. Have you ever been to Giants Stadium? Talk about congestion....it's a nightmare getting in and getting out! With practically every subway and train line in New York City, I can't think of a better location for a stadium than this one...other than on top of Penn Station which MSG has covered. The key is to disuade people from driving to games...which is why NOT building a parking deck and NOT allowing surface parking (on the AY site) will be critical.

Posted by: FtGreeneCorey at January 9, 2009 2:09 PM

TGreeneCorey,

I ask your LA friend if he'd want to live in a house right next to the arena where the Lakers play. My guess is no.

Posted by: Boerum Hill at January 9, 2009 2:58 PM

FtGreeneCorey,

is Oklahoma City now a "major league city"? Is Seattle now less of a city after having lost the Super Sonics? What about Montreal, Quebec after the Expos left? Have the Washington Senators now made our nation's capitol more of a "major league city"?

Brooklyn is a city of neighborhoods. That's what makes it cool. Manhattan is a city of tourist attractions. That's what makes it annoying.

I'll try not to get up too high on my soapbox here but you really should do some real research on the economic impact that professional sports teams have on a local economy. In a nutshell they are not worth the millions or billions of public taxpayer dollars that are poured into them. They're economic impact is negligible, at best.

But what about all those people who will go out for dinner before the game and/or out for drinks after the games? All that is doing is shifting when and where I spend my disposable income. If I give my money to FCR and the concession stands inside the arena I won't have that money to give to the local restaurants and establishments that make Brooklyn the great place to live.

Since FCR, the Nets & Barclays are going to be pocketing all the profits for this venture let them build the arena. If a businessman wants you to take all the risk for a project while he takes all the profits doesn't that tell you something about that venture?

Posted by: LimestoneKid at January 9, 2009 3:44 PM

Boerum Hill, I ask this question not to agitate, but because I'm really curious. Are there people that live on or near the arena site? I'm envisioning that intersection and I think the residential areas are either insulated by Atlantic or Flatbush, or set back somewhat (over on the Dean side). I know that prospect heights proper would be impacted by the larger AY footprint, but does the same hold true for the arena itself?

Posted by: FtGreeneCorey at January 9, 2009 3:50 PM

Limestonekid, if you actually READ what I said above, (i) I'm sorry, but I'm just expressing MY opinion that I think a professional sport team would be good for Brooklyn. Am I not entitled to that? (ii) I stated above (in my post at 11:32 AM) that I AGREE that tax payer dollars should not be used. Again, Ratner should be able to build the arena itself between the Barclays sponsorship proceeds and private financing, although the city should pay for the ajoining infastructure improvements (which are needed anyway).

Posted by: FtGreeneCorey at January 9, 2009 5:16 PM

FtGreenCorey. Yes, there are people who would live directly directly next to the arena and directly across the street, as currently planned.

as for Brooklyn raising its international and national profile by becoming a "major league" town, with all due respect Brooklyn's profile nationally and internationally is way high. i don't think we are hurting in that regard.


Posted by: brokeland at January 9, 2009 8:52 PM

All I can say is thank you to Develop Don't Destroy for delaying this long enough so that what would have been a nice building will look like the rest of Ratner's buildings. Thank you for sticking up for us, so that we can have a parking lot next door for the next 40 years. Thank you for proving that one stubborn guy can stop a billionaire from making something useful. Now whenever I walk by the parking lots that could have been affordable housing, I'll think "Thank you Daniel Goldstein" for protecting me from tall buildings and affordable housing.

Posted by: carfreenation at January 9, 2009 11:07 PM

Thank you Dan Goldstein from protecting us from out-of-scale superblock dehumanizing development, paid for with my tax dollars, containing much less "affordable" housing than the Rat would have us believe.

Thank you Dan Goldstein for protecting us from paying for some billionaire's arena for his sports team.

Thak you Dan Goldstein for protecting long-term neighborhood residents from being forced out of their rent-stabilized apartments.

Thank you Dan Golstein for protecting us from living in a borough known as home to a third-rate basketball franchise.

Thank you Dan Goldstein for protecting us from the biggest traffic clusterf*ck ever at an already-nightmarish intersection -- and the air pollution resulting from all those exhaust fumes in an area already showing one of the highest asthma rates in the nation.

Thank you Dan Goldstein for protecting us from overflowing sewers, insufficient fire and police protection, overburdened hospitals, overcrowded schools, and all the other troubles that would have resulted from this ill-conceived and inappropriate plan.

The list goes on and on -- I'll take a parking lot any day, but at least we've stopped (for the moment) the destruction of an enitre neighborhood, although several buildings have been lost (including Ward's Bakery, which should have been landmarked).

Posted by: babs at January 10, 2009 4:29 PM

FtGreeneCorey,

Opinions are good. Informed opinions are better.

Cheers!

Posted by: LimestoneKid at January 11, 2009 3:27 PM

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