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December 30, 2008

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Any thoughts on the Case Schiller report today? Am I wrong to take cautious comfort that NYC is only down 12% from the June 2006 peak, and only down 7.5% from October 2007?

Posted by: FatLenny at December 30, 2008 11:04 AM

Talk amongst yourselves:

****

December 30, 2008, 9:24 am
New York, New York: America’s Resilient City
By Edward L. Glaeser

Edward L. Glaeser is an economist at Harvard.

Wall Street is just about to finish the worst year since 1931. American housing markets are finishing their worst year in recorded history. New York’s economy is highly dependent on Wall Street; about 40 percent of Manhattan’s total payroll was in finance and insurance in 2006. These three facts should have created the mother of all price crashes in New York City real estate.

Yet New York’s housing prices are doing remarkably well relative to elsewhere in America.

Today’s Case-Shiller housing price figures indicate that New York City’s prices dropped 7.5 percent in the last year, while prices in Los Angeles declined 27.9 percent. Nationwide prices dropped 18 percent. New York is the only major metropolitan area with prices that are still 90 percent above prices in January 2000. According to National Association of Realtors data, New York is the only city in the continental United States, outside of San Francisco Bay, where median sales prices remain north of $500,000.

Despite Wall Street’s suffering, the New York area’s unemployment rate, 5.6 percent in the latest figures, is lower than that in many other major cities. The comparable unemployment rate for Los Angeles is 8.2 percent. The comparable number for Chicago is 6.4 percent.

This is not the first time that New York has weathered a downturn well. Between 1950 and 2000, all but 2 of the 10 largest American cities lost 20 percent or more of their populations. America’s older, colder cities were buffeted badly by an exodus of manufacturing jobs, suburbanization and the move to the Sun Belt. Some cities — Cleveland, Detroit and St. Louis — shrank to one-half or less of their former size. New York and Los Angeles were the two cities that grew. While Los Angeles had everything going for it — cars, sunshine, movie stars — New York, then as now, seemed to have everything going against it.

Every older city has survived a number of recessions. Boston has been around for almost 400 years despite having few natural advantages except cranberry bogs and a decent harbor. Over and over again, economic shocks challenged Boston’s survival. Time and time again, smart people learning from each other in a dense city have come up with new ways to thrive.

For the city’s first three centuries, New York thrived as America’s most important port. Nature endowed Manhattan with a great natural harbor, a deep long river that cut into a fertile hinterland and a central location on the Eastern seaboard. These gifts made New York that hub of trans-Atlantic commerce in the 19th century. New York’s major industries grew up around the port, such as sugar refining, printing and publishing, and the garment industry.

Over the 20th century, the advantages that came from the ports and railroads that had created older cities disappeared. Suburbanization, globalization and the exodus of urban manufacturing hit all of America’s older cities. When other cities, including Boston, experienced significant population declines from 1950 to 1970, New York City still grew, albeit modestly. Only during the 1970s, the years of my Manhattan youth, did the city a suffer major population decline.

However, New York managed to come roaring back, while other cities have just continued to fall. The secret of New York’s post-1970 reinvention was that smart people, who knew each other and learned from each, innovated in ways that made billions in financial services. The same density that once served to get hogsheads onto clipper ships served to spread ideas.

What does this mean for the future?

New York still has an amazing concentration of talent. That talent is more effective because all those smart people are connected because of the city’s extreme population density levels. Historically, human capital — the education and skills of a work force — predicts which cities are able to reinvent themselves and which ones are not. Those people who are continuing to pay high prices for Manhattan real estate are implicitly betting that New York’s human capital will continue to come up with new ways of reinventing the city.

I won’t be surprised if Manhattan prices do drop in the next few years, but I also strongly believe that the future of New York City continues to be bright. Homo sapiens are a social species; almost all of what we know we learn from each other. Dense cities, like New York, succeed when they take advantage of this fundamental aspect of our humanity. They thrive by enabling us to connect with each other, which then promotes learning and innovation. The current downturn will only increase the returns to being smart, and you get smart by hanging around smart people. As long as New York continues to attract and connect those people, the city will continue to thrive.

Posted by: 11217 at December 30, 2008 11:33 AM

LIke I said earlier...welcome back 11217. I think Mr. Glaeser has a clear head on his shoulders and is correctly thinking through this cycle.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at December 30, 2008 11:42 AM

Meanwhile, back in consensus reality:

Manhattan home prices down around 20%
By C. J. Hughes

The most rosy-eyed brokers said it couldn't happen here. They said Manhattan was a different beast, and that its supply of apartments was kept in check by the island's rocky shores, so demand for those units would always be strong, and prices elevated. They pointed out Manhattan's sales prices hitting an all-time high last spring, months after the national housing market began collapsing, as a sign of its fundamental resilience.

But it turns out they may have overstated things.

As anecdotal evidence about fall sales seeps out, well before brokerage reports about fourth-quarter transactions are released, evidence is mounting that not only have Manhattan housing prices slipped, they have done so by around 20 percent, which is a much more precipitous plunge than expected.

"Both residential and commercial real estate markets have softened substantially since the last report, most notably in Manhattan," said the edition of the Federal Reserve Board's "beige book" that came out earlier this month.

The report, which looks at market conditions in various cities eight times a year, found that "the prices of Manhattan co-ops and condos are reported to have fallen by 15 to 20 percent since mid-summer, though it is hard to get a clear handle on prices due to thin volume. Much of the recent activity is reportedly from desperate sellers."

Jonathan Miller, president of appraisal firm Miller Samuel, which provided data for the Fed's analysis based on contract prices after a series of confidence-shaking bank failures and federal bailouts, said the drops are somewhat unsurprising. Prices historically fall after sales volume slows, and volume has ebbed considerably in recent months.

Indeed, sales have been off about 28 percent for the first three quarters of this year, versus the same year-ago period, Miller said.

"A drop in transactions always precedes a drop in prices, because it leads to [an] increase in inventory," he said. "It's really a canary in the subway."

...

"Just like in the derivatives market, there will be price discoveries, and new benchmarks will be set," Rosenblatt said. "It could create an adverse feedback loop."

Posted by: SnarkSlope at December 30, 2008 11:47 AM

Thanks Dave. I don't know what to think about the article. I think he has some good points, but I've also been told that NYC usually feels recessions later than the rest of the country.

I certainly agree with his assertion that the concentration of talent is a huge boost to this city. It's the reason many of us came here, afterall.

Posted by: 11217 at December 30, 2008 11:47 AM

Meanwhile back in the reality that is truly the consensus: the S&P 500 is up 141 points after all this bad news today (no one even mentioned consumer confidence which was at an all-time low) and it's trying like hell to break out above 900. Talk about climbing a "wall of worry!"

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at December 30, 2008 11:53 AM

quote:
New York still has an amazing concentration of talent.

that's odd. i consider myself a very observant human being, and just don't see that. at all.

*rob*

Posted by: PitbullNYC at December 30, 2008 12:09 PM

My fear is that NYC financial services layoffs haven't had their full impact yet. Many people have been laid off and remain unemployed, but still have significant severance or savings or unemployment. What happens when that runs out?

I don't want to see it, but I think we'll be seeing a lot more people forced to sell real estate in the next year.

Posted by: tinarina at December 30, 2008 12:14 PM

something will have to hit the fan sooner or later. do we really think that new york is some oz-like fairy tale place that is immune from a real estate bust of the first order? I sense one is coming.
On the plus side it will lengthen marry marriages.

Posted by: Inigo at December 30, 2008 12:27 PM

I think there is an amazing amount of talent here, in all kinds of fields. As 11217 said, that's why many of us moved here. Unfortunately, much of that talent gets sublimated due to down to earth needs such as paying rent, bills, etc.

I'm personally hoping that in this economic downturn, there is still room for expressions of talent that enable those people, including myself, to make a living from it. One must be especially clever, nowadays, and reinvent oneself and one's product.

I sincerely hope most people don't allow the media's doom-Doom-DOOMED! reporting to get us down. It's not like a giant asteroid is heading for the planet. People survived the Great Depression, they survived Hurrican Katrina, 9/11, floods, tornados and fire. We are a resiliant people. We need to be smart, frugal and alert, but we're not DOOMED!

Posted by: Montrose Morris at December 30, 2008 12:44 PM

If you don't think there is an incredible concentration of talent in NYC then you are far from an observant person. In fact, that would make you a very dense person, and not very well traveled. Open your eyes and breathe in the air, Rob.

There is no doubt in my mind that New York will weather the storm better than the rest of the country despite its dependence on financial services. The question is whether a false sense of hope and optimism is keeping RE prices high relative to the rest of the country. It's hard to imagine that such a market dislocation would exist after a year's onslaught of horrible economic data. At the same time, I think the worst is yet to come. Will NYC continue to persevere better than other regions? Or will it get hit relatively harder because other regions have already corrected?

Posted by: FatLenny at December 30, 2008 1:06 PM

quote:
If you don't think there is an incredible concentration of talent in NYC then you are far from an observant person. In fact, that would make you a very dense person, and not very well traveled. Open your eyes and breathe in the air, Rob.


sorry but nyc seems just like everywhere else to me. there is nothing special about being a new yorker anymore with pervasive internet culture, and it seems like most people come to nyc for all the wrong reasons these days. if my observation makes me dense, so be it. we all view the world differently.

*rob*

Posted by: PitbullNYC at December 30, 2008 1:34 PM

If that's the case, Rob, why don't you move somewhere cheaper?

Posted by: tinarina at December 30, 2008 1:43 PM

1.) i dont have a driver's license
2.) the NYC area is pretty much all i know (lame excuse i know)
3.) i like the climate
4.) i like the architecture
5.) and i have a job here that pays the bills
6.) oh yeah and i have no money to relocate

if it was intellectual stimulation and truly interesting people, i wouldn't really pick nyc as my top choice. not saying they don't exist here, but it's very difficult to find them, and when you do they seem a little phoney. i do not think nyc attracts the brightest and most interesting people from the rest of the world.. i feel like it attracts the type of people who bought into something that's not really there and people who can afford to live here.

im hesistant to hit add reply with this because im sure a lot of my argument is weak and has holes in it. it's just a general feeling i get about nyc in general, that is all. no offense to anyone else who has found it to be the other way around. it's possible im not looking hard enough, and it's possible those kinds of people just aren't interested in me, so yeah.

*rob*

Posted by: PitbullNYC at December 30, 2008 1:51 PM

rob, how old are you?

Posted by: FatLenny at December 30, 2008 1:56 PM

Rob, I work in publishing, and before Web 2.0, when you actually needed a printing press to publish, the woeful job opportunities in other cities meant talent clustered in NYC. SF was full of about 100 mediocrities all fighting each other over pathetically stupid jobs. Presumably now you can live anywhere. But I think others have already observed Brooklyn is home to many of the best and most successful blogs. (Brownstoner comes to mind.)

Posted by: mopar at December 30, 2008 1:57 PM

31 fat lenny. my Sweet Sixteen x 2 (32) is coming up in about a month!

hmm mopar, interesting point..


*rob*

Posted by: PitbullNYC at December 30, 2008 2:00 PM

rob...what about all the interesting and intelligent people you met at the party at Union Hall????

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at December 30, 2008 2:03 PM

rob...what about all the interesting and intelligent people you met at the party at Union Hall????

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at December 30, 2008 2:03 PM

Especially those highly intelligent ones who hot the post button twice!!!

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at December 30, 2008 2:05 PM

sorry im just being a little bit of a drama queen today. my office is like 800 degrees and people REFUSE to crack open the windows a little bit. everyone's always im coooOoOold im cooollldd. ugh. plus it's dead as a doornail and im bored out of my mind. everywhere on the internet is even so slow!!!

*rob*

Posted by: PitbullNYC at December 30, 2008 2:09 PM

open the windows yourself then and tell them to put on a sweater or figure out how to monkey with the thermostat.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at December 30, 2008 2:11 PM

Oh speak for yourself DIBS - BH and I may be intelligent but we're boring as hell!

It's deathly dull over here too Rob. A few people are clearing their desks, and we're filling up dumpsters with dead paper crap.

Posted by: cobblehiller at December 30, 2008 2:13 PM

nah dibs, cant mess with the heat.. we just have a temp for the AC. we get heat from gross old school soho building radiators you can fry eggs on

*rob*

Posted by: PitbullNYC at December 30, 2008 2:21 PM

I don't know, too much hyper interesting is also wearying after a while. It would be like dating Jim Carrey. I'd have to kill him after about 2 hours.

I like being around intelligent people. That doesn't mean degrees from impressive colleges, but being around people who have done interesting things, travelled, read a lot, and can converse on a number of topics, not just the ones related to their jobs. Add all of that to a healthy sense of humor, and I'm at home. There seem to be a growing number of folk like that in Brooklyn, and the gathering at Union Hall was a lot of fun for exactly that reason.

Posted by: Montrose Morris at December 30, 2008 2:29 PM

I like being around intelligent people too. I'd also have a lot of fun at NASCAR. I'll grant you one thing rob, there ain't no NASCAR in NYC!!!!

I'm with MM...I'm more interested in people with a healthy sense of humor. There are definitely more paranoid and/or neurotic people in NYC but that might be mostly Manhattan. ;-)

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at December 30, 2008 2:35 PM

oh no. give me a funny person over a smart person anyday too. intelligent people get annoying after a while. in short doses they are okay tho.

*rob*

Posted by: PitbullNYC at December 30, 2008 2:45 PM

But Rob, don't funny and intelligent go together?

Posted by: cobblehiller at December 30, 2008 2:55 PM

Like SnarkSlope for instance - perfect example of hilarity and smarts!

Posted by: cobblehiller at December 30, 2008 3:03 PM

And then there's Biff and BRG. Some people just get short changed in life. Too bad they're not even here to defend themselves...nonetheless.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at December 30, 2008 3:08 PM

I hear you about the temp Rob. I also work in a Soho loft, with mostly women who are always cold. It is currently 82 degrees in this room and I'm very cranky.

Posted by: A Guest at December 30, 2008 3:11 PM

HA! Be kind DIBS...be kind...or BRG will reach out from Arizona or wherever she is and 'smite' you!

Posted by: cobblehiller at December 30, 2008 3:13 PM

Aww shucks, cobblehiller. Anyhoo, Happy New Year to you, and here's hoping for a less bumpy 2009.

Posted by: SnarkSlope at December 30, 2008 3:15 PM

Then I'll be "smitten" correct? Would that make my bi?

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at December 30, 2008 3:16 PM

Cute DIBS, very cute...smite, smitten...I'll have to remember that one. A friend of mine has a hypothesis that we are all bi, just to varying degrees/ratios.

And a very Happy New Year to you Snark!

Posted by: cobblehiller at December 30, 2008 3:21 PM

Your friend, a female????, just wants to get you in bed with that kind of talk.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at December 30, 2008 3:23 PM

"Your friend, a female????, just wants to get you in bed with that kind of talk."

I wouldn't assume that, but I'm not completely dismissing it either!

Posted by: cobblehiller at December 30, 2008 3:29 PM

wow. i just spotted a MAN in classic womens Uggs walking down soho. lol

i mean, ive worn womens shoes (sneakers mostly that dont look girley really) but the thought of uggs on a man! gack!


*rob*

Posted by: PitbullNYC at December 30, 2008 3:32 PM

I've tried that line (and other, more creative ones, that will remain unpublished) on the occasional straight friend who I think is hot. They never work. Her hypothesis is false.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at December 30, 2008 3:34 PM

Its SoHo rob...what do you expect?

Did you get those cha cha heels for Christmas that you so wanted?

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at December 30, 2008 3:35 PM

"I've tried that line (and other, more creative ones, that will remain unpublished) on the occasional straight friend who I think is hot. They never work. Her hypothesis is false."

People are ingenius when they want something...aren't they?!

I'm so curious to hear your 'more creative' lines...next gathering, please!

Posted by: cobblehiller at December 30, 2008 3:37 PM

It will have to wait until then.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at December 30, 2008 3:39 PM

i didn't get my cha cha heels. nor an autographed picture of charro :(

*rob*

Posted by: PitbullNYC at December 30, 2008 3:43 PM

"i didn't get my cha cha heels. nor an autographed picture of charro :("

Perhaps for your sweet 16(x2)?

Posted by: cobblehiller at December 30, 2008 3:45 PM

I wasn't thinking Charro...more like Dawn Davenport...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHHeGcD6o_E

Thanks to SnarkSlope for that yesterday.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at December 30, 2008 3:46 PM

But nice girls don't wear cha cha heels...

Alrighty, Snarky's gotta bounce.

Happy New Year to all.

Posted by: SnarkSlope at December 30, 2008 3:47 PM

whoa. who is dawn davenport? i just saw that name on another message board... some chick was making fun of another hausfrau and made a dawn davenport reference hahaha

*rob*

Posted by: PitbullNYC at December 30, 2008 3:48 PM

Happy New Year to all of you that I don't see here tomorrow.

Don't drink too many Presbyterians Inigo.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at December 30, 2008 3:50 PM

Hey DIBS, Happy New Years to ya! See ya on the other side. Or maybe tomorrow...

Posted by: SnarkSlope at December 30, 2008 3:52 PM

Yes, Happy New Year wishes to all! And to you too What!

Posted by: cobblehiller at December 30, 2008 3:53 PM

"Presbyterians"

I just googled that DIBS...it's a real drink!

Posted by: cobblehiller at December 30, 2008 3:54 PM

Yes, cobblehiller, I know. I'm going to have one this weekend. I was going back and forth with Inigo on the Gold Leaf Cornice thread about Presbyterians.

I'll see hpw many bartenders I can find that know how to make one.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at December 30, 2008 3:56 PM

Is there a Congregationalist?! Is there a Unitarian?!

Posted by: cobblehiller at December 30, 2008 4:00 PM

As per Inigo in the Cornice thread, they are the original Puritans...not a drinking lot.

http://www.5min.com/Video/How-to-Make-a-Presbyterian-Art-of-the-Drink-23-2187096

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at December 30, 2008 4:08 PM

I know, I know...that's my family you're talking about! I was teasing,...is there a Hassid-ian? is there a Muslim-ian? is there a Buddhist-ian?

Posted by: cobblehiller at December 30, 2008 4:21 PM

There's an Irish Catholic drink called a boiler maker.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at December 30, 2008 4:23 PM

If you want a proper presbyterian you should go to Weather Up on Vanderbilt or Clover Club on Smith (as far as Brooklyn is concerned)
All of the bartenders at the cocktail joints in manhattan will know as well (milk and honey, pegu, death and co etc)


Posted by: A Guest at December 30, 2008 7:00 PM

2 old WASP ladies walk into a bar. oh my..this is a bar..should we stay?...yes, let's order tea...you know since this is a bar, wouldn't it be fun to order a sherry? ..Oh lets!....but you know what would be really fun? a beer! oh my, I haven't had a beer in years....well, you know what goes well with beer? bourbon.....they turn to the waitress, 2 boiler makers, wild turkey and Bud, the waitress: I'll run a tab.

(from Cheers)

Posted by: sam at December 30, 2008 8:24 PM

Oh, yes, NASCAR! Monster truck rallies are even better.

Posted by: mopar at December 31, 2008 1:19 PM

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