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December 8, 2008

House of the Day: 1232 Dean Street

This four-story house at 1232 Dean Street in Crown Heights just hit the market and, like so many houses in the area, has some killer architectural details. (In this case, it's the wood paneling and built-ins that really impress.) Hopefully for the seller, this place will attract more interest than the next-door neighbor at 1230 Dean Street, which we featured a year ago and is still on the market for $1,250,000. While we suspect there will be plenty of people who dig the house, we suspect that the price tag of $999,000 for a house in this neighborhood may be a tough sell in this economic environment.
1232 Dean Street [Halstead] GMAP P*Shark

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Comments

"The building has twenty rooms which will allow your creative vision to create a home of your dreams and passion."

nice try, but "twenty rooms" = "bring your architect."

Posted by: z at December 8, 2008 1:25 PM

Killer house. A big thank you to the sellers for not stripping the interiors and letting an architect express his flawless minimalist-chic taste.
I have no idea what kind of block this is. it does seem to be a bit out there. I'm sure Montrosse will tell us all about it.

Posted by: sam at December 8, 2008 1:30 PM

I think this is a great house. The price could be better but after looking at the condo of the day this price looks great.

Posted by: Amzi Hill at December 8, 2008 1:33 PM

That paneling is gorgeous!
Me wants to restore this one.

This stretch of Dean Street has some very beautiful homes.

Montrose, please chime in on price. We're going to start looking again come January. This to me seems high, especially since it needs some reconfiguration, add bathrooms, etc., to my taste of course.

Posted by: bayridgegirl at December 8, 2008 1:37 PM

I think I have to return a book to this library.

Posted by: dittoburg at December 8, 2008 1:52 PM

The lack of a bathroom in the fourth floor apt is already very creative.

Posted by: mopar at December 8, 2008 2:02 PM

Sam, when anyone wants to point to a quintessential Crown Heights block, they usually pick this one. It is deservedly landmarked, and is chock full of homes designed by some of Brooklyn's best late 19th C. architects. Most of them were built as groups, and as you walk down the street, the details, materials and facades never get tiresome. The block is anchored by two amazing churches, both on this side of the block, one at NY Ave, one on Nostrand. In between are some great frame houses, the house next door, which was built in the 1920's, and groups of fine Renaissance revival homes. I never get tired walking down this block, especially in spring or summer, it is just gorgeous.

That said, since I live right behind Dean, I can hear the sounds of renovation all the time, especially on weekends. There is a lot going on here, and this block has a very strong and active block association. I know several people who own homes here, and they are very organized and efficient.

I'm glad to see this house break with the recent over a million trend. In addition to the house next door still for sale, the house on the corner of Dean and NY was also listed by Corcoran, and wasn't moving. $999K is hardly a sale price, however. The built-ins are great, I hope the rest of the house is as worthy. Everything on that block would have been, originally. Hopefully the details are still there, here, too.

This house is 5 blocks from the A at Nostrand, and is near banking and supermarkets at Restoration Plaza on Fulton. It is right smack in the middle of the block, and is quiet. With the market in flux now, I don't see this price, I'm betting it will sit until it goes down considerably, to around $800 something. The people I see on this block are all holding on, renovating if they can, and waiting to see what's going on, like everyone else.

Posted by: Montrose Morris at December 8, 2008 2:04 PM

Brownstoner:

Readers here would like to know a little about this block. I remember it from growing up around the corner during the 1950's, so may be able to shed a little light.

There's more architecture per pound here than on any block in Brooklyn, possibly New York!

It's eclectic, polychromatic and -- its genius! -- includes three handsome churches: one with a campanile at Nostrand Avenue (I went to Sunday school there, back when it was Presbyterian; I don't know if it still is); another at New York Avenue, a limestone beauty (now a Haitian denomination, I think, but back in the day, Christian Science, if I remember correctly); and, most magnificent of all, the Union Methodist across the avenue, a Romanesque-Revival pile in red brick that dominates the entire blockfront.

I remember this stretch of Dean as a shady, kid-friendly place, great for stoop and stick ball games under the trees. (Buses run on it now, apparently, which is too bad.) The stoops, especially, were great, just the spots to hang out, sip a lemonade, or take a nap. (To this day, when I visit Brooklyn, I want to curl up on all the brownstone steps!)

If this were a just world, this block would be Brooklyn's best address, but its location in Crown Heights arbitrarily reduces its prices. It is, however, in the heart of the Crown Heights North Historic District, which assures its long-term architectural integrity.

Negotiate the price, buy, and sit and hold. Ten years from now everyone else will be scratching their heads wondering why they didn't do the same.

Nostalgic on Park Avenue

Posted by: NOP at December 8, 2008 2:06 PM

The house does look nice, but it has clealy been chopped up a bit and there aren't nearly enough photos to get a sense of the damage. The price seems awfully high in the current market--but i admit to not know the CH market that well, so perhaps I'm wrong.

Posted by: shillstoner at December 8, 2008 2:07 PM

bayridgegirl this might be your house by January this house if still on the market might come down 100K and a 4% loan

Posted by: Amzi Hill at December 8, 2008 2:08 PM

Although my friends are efficient and organized, I did mean to point to their block association.

Posted by: Montrose Morris at December 8, 2008 2:09 PM

Thanks, Montrose!!

Will keep my eyes on this. At 800k, this baby is mine.
MM, then please hop over the backyard fence and come on over and help me restore that woodwork.

I wish, they had more pics, maybe I'll go check it out.

Posted by: bayridgegirl at December 8, 2008 2:13 PM

NOP, absolutely correct, as always. The former Christian Science church is now a Haitian 7th Day Adventist Church, the Presbyterians are still on Nostrand. The Methodist fortress is one of my favorites in all of New York. Have you ever seen the inside. It will make a believer out of anyone. One of the best, simple, soaring sacred spaces I have ever seen.

The B65 does run down the block, but that also makes it safer, with more official "eyes" and neighbors 24/7. They use the newer buses on this route, and they are very quiet. Whenever I rent a car overnight, I always park on this block. I have never had a problem, or a worry.

Posted by: Montrose Morris at December 8, 2008 2:16 PM

I own a house on this block and agree that it is one of the best blocks in crown heights. We moved to carroll gardens after our first kid. The neighborhood is not as kid friendly as others.....But the block is great! I remember the summer of the black out, being pregnant and walking my 3 dogs at 4am! I was never scared and loved spying on the crack houses that used to be there..just walking by, not really spying!! Not anymore.....now it is a historic block!

The Childrens Museum is a couple blocks away...and the train is so close!

Posted by: areakidsbrooklyn at December 8, 2008 2:17 PM

NOP, sure, come on here and taut the neighborhood's grand architecture. Can you at least wait, till I buy something in the nabe, before you declare it a gem full of wonderful homes.

NOP...ssshhhh. This neighbrohood is beautiful, let it be our secret!

Posted by: bayridgegirl at December 8, 2008 2:21 PM

Montrose Morris is going to get you killed! The houses there are beautiful but the area is not. The youngins are into training exercises and honing their craft! I would think about buying in that part of the hood now, because our economic situations will not get better in 2009. And please don't say I'm trying to stir fear, that's life around that area...

The What (But.. But.. not in the face..)

Someday this war is gonna end...

Posted by: Return of The What at December 8, 2008 2:38 PM

Okay, Bay Ridge Girl. Then let me offer up a complaint.

On a drive through the neighborhood, I noticed that the Presbyterian and Seventh-Day Adventist churches have cordoned themselves off with pseudo-iron fences. These add nothing to their architectural quality, and should keep prices low throughout Crown Heights. When I grew up, these buildings' wonderfully rich facades cascaded right to the sidewalks, giving us places to nestle or play handball (probably why they put up the fences!).

Happy?

;-)

NOP

Posted by: NOP at December 8, 2008 2:40 PM

BRG - If you're really interested at $800K you should tout that offer.

I'm sure NOP isn't as taut as he used to be if he's that old ;-) (as always NOP, your historical perspective is always appreciated).

Posted by: dittoburg at December 8, 2008 2:42 PM

BRG,
You gonna buy this house?
What you gonna to do with all that space?
That library room is a real beauty.
Can't beat it with a stick.
That's the kind of feature that is so important in an historic property. You can always put in new toilets and new kitchen cupboards. But you can't put in that kind of woodwork and detailing.

Posted by: sam at December 8, 2008 2:47 PM

nothing is going to happen north of a 700K handle on this one right now. if you think otherwise then you're lacking objectivity.

Posted by: BrooklynLove at December 8, 2008 2:49 PM

oh, ditto...you pick up where Biff left off!

TOUT!!!!
I'm going to go check it out. Depends how much work this needs, I might be interested. Look for the Caddy parked in the driveway!

NOP...that's better!! I'll be sure to use the negative 'pseudo-iron fences' when I'm negotiating price. :)

Posted by: bayridgegirl at December 8, 2008 2:52 PM

I don't understand the floorplan. How many families were in this "multifamily" dwelling? What is the story with the 3 kitchens and 2 bathrooms? Was this a SRO? Anybody have a clue?

Posted by: househunt at December 8, 2008 2:57 PM

Sorry guys but this house scares the crap out of me and the kitchen is where the murders would happen.

Posted by: Ljubitca at December 8, 2008 3:00 PM

I'm wondering if the plumbing, electric and heating are not updated. They mention the roof but nothing else.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at December 8, 2008 3:06 PM

Not an SRO...legal 2-family.
According to DOB, they replaced boiler in 2001.
They have a legal curb cut, filed in 2004.

If I go check it out, I'll report back. This one is exciting me. It might have to wait till after the holidays, though.

Posted by: bayridgegirl at December 8, 2008 3:12 PM

Wonderful, BRG, hope you go get it. Can't wait to hear more.

Posted by: mopar at December 8, 2008 3:25 PM

Me too. Hope you buy it BRG. It looks pretty amazing.

Posted by: wasder at December 8, 2008 3:27 PM

Liubitca:

I can see where you'd get that vibe.

My grandparents owned a pair of adjoining Victorians, and visiting them could be spooky: the long, twisting stairs; the nooks and crannies; the extra bathrooms and kitchens (added, over time, for their children as they married and started families -- maybe this house is similar; lots of old Brooklyn families held on to their properties for years). But that's what makes them interesting.

As for the odd bathrooms and kitchens, if this were an inter-generational house, distinctions among "apartments" would be vague. I remember an aunt and her husband with a living room in one part of the "grands" house and their bedrooms in another. While still another aunt and uncle, temporary residents, walked between the two houses, dining in one, sleeping in the other!

In the 50's and 60's, people of my parents' generation complained about the inflexibility and inconvenience of old houses, but they were actually anything but! More likely, that generation wanted to disassociate itself from its parents' tastes and become "modern." (I remember the horse-hair sofas. They were "ugly" and they did scratch! But how much do brownstoners pay for them now?)

NOP

Posted by: NOP at December 8, 2008 3:30 PM

Oh, gee, guys..that's sweet.

but...at 999k, and if it needs all new mechanicals, we can't do it.

Plus, I'd want to convert it to a garden rental and a triplex. If we like it, I'd have to crunch the numbers to figure out costs of such a reno.

Plus, according to the 'what', we're in for worse times.
It's all so complicated.

Posted by: bayridgegirl at December 8, 2008 3:36 PM

"Plus, according to the 'what', we're in for worse times.
It's all so complicated."

No it's really simple, dumbass. To but that dream home will cost you about 7,000 a month.

Say 800k purchase price. 750+ Fico, 25% down 200,000 down (Banks are only doing 75% LTV). Closing cost 48,000. So you would need about 250,00 to get started!

Monthly payment: 30 Years
Interest rate: 9.750%
Loan amount: $ 600,000.00
$ 5,154.93 a month

Plus Insurance, Taxes, Utilities and Misc. Yep about 7k a month using the 35/41 rule. You income need to be around 84,000 a year and I can apply the income from your rental. The number hurt my head now and this just a estimate of your monthly pain. eh plan.

The What

Someday this war is gonna end...

BTW Jumbo''s are running about 10%!!

Posted by: Return of The What at December 8, 2008 3:54 PM

BRG: If you like the house, and if by "we" you mean yourself and one other gainfully employed person (cats don't count) I think you can definitely do it. First of all, you will deduct the cost of upgrading the mechanicals and any strucutral deficiencies from the asking price. Then, you factor in the income from your garden apartment. And hell! -it's cheaper than renting. Well, maybe not right away, but it will build you wealth in the long run. The most important thing is that you gotta love the house. Pipes, and terlets, and refridgerators come and go. They are of no concern. Trust me.
I bet you could buy this for well under ask. Really.

Posted by: sam at December 8, 2008 4:06 PM

Oh, What...you are a dream. Running the numbers for me. My ilk and I appreciate it.

I'm just a really simple, dumbass.

Sam, I know we (hubby and I, no cat) can do it. We are just so hesitant right now, with the economy in a downward spiral. I have to sell in order to buy. It'll happen one day. I always keep my eyes open for a good deal. And this one piqued my interest (not that I'm saying it's a deal).

I definitely, have to love the house that's for sure. I'm very picky.

Posted by: bayridgegirl at December 8, 2008 4:18 PM

What...even you aren't so dumb to think the rate is going to be 9.75%.

Please stop being a jackass sooooo often

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at December 8, 2008 4:24 PM

BRG...never rely on the What for any numbers. Single family mortgages under the terms above are 5.5%...two-family slightly higher.

For a broker he's pretty stupid with the numbers.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at December 8, 2008 4:30 PM

DIBS...I was being sarcastic.

You should have known that when I said he was a dream!

Posted by: bayridgegirl at December 8, 2008 4:35 PM

$600k @ 6.0%...$3,597/month....insurance $3,000 max (with Chubb)...utilities depend on oil or gas and how efficient the boiler is but with gas forced air shouldn't be more than about $1,800 per year. I think this place had radiators so don't know how efficient it would be

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at December 8, 2008 4:35 PM

The What, as usual, is trying to stir the pot. BRG, I would welcome you and Hubby around the corner. My back yard doesn't face this side of the street, but I'd come over and gape at that built-in any time. Let me know if you go see it, I'll come with you to protect you from all of the urban denizens the What thinks are training on the block. He must mean the drum and bugle corp that sometimes practices at the church.

What, you bitch that you are treated like a second class citizen in your own neighborhood, (Fulton St. thread), you take delight in people getting mugged in Clinton Hill (mugging thread), and now you tell people not to move to Crown Heights because the boyz in the hood are cleaning their weapons. You want everyone white/rich/educated to move back to Iowa, and leave the hoods to whom? Since you've been around since those bad old days, how about some constructive ways to make life better for everyone, ESPECIALLY the old timers who really feel the pinch, instead of celebrating us all going to hell. If you're not part of the solution, then you are the problem, and you get no props, no respect, no street cred from me. You are as obsolete as a "brother" in a pimp suit, with matching hat and shoes, in a pink caddy, rolling down Fulton Street. A whole lotta flash, but no substance.

Posted by: Montrose Morris at December 8, 2008 4:39 PM

Hey thanks for the smoothing over NOP - I grew up in a house much like this in Jersey City and my parents are still there and well that house sort of scares the crap out of me too. I love woodwork and old houses and such but I need light and these pictures hopefully do not do this house any justice. As that hallway screams of you being chased by the knife-weilding wood nymph that crawled out of the woodwork.

Posted by: Ljubitca at December 8, 2008 4:40 PM

QOTD....."You are as obsolete as a "brother" in a pimp suit, with matching hat and shoes, in a pink caddy, rolling down Fulton Street. A whole lotta flash, but no substance."

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at December 8, 2008 4:43 PM

Montrose, You know I love the area and we were looking about a year ago. We're going to resume our hunt after the new year.

"You are as obsolete as a "brother" in a pimp suit, with matching hat and shoes, in a pink caddy, rolling down Fulton Street. A whole lotta flash, but no substance."

MM - when we move to the area. I was going to get hubby a purple suit and matching furry hat with crocidle shoes and pimp out the caddy, so we can fit in.
You mean, I shouldn't do that :)

Posted by: bayridgegirl at December 8, 2008 4:54 PM

oh, damn my spelling

crocodile shoes!

Posted by: bayridgegirl at December 8, 2008 4:57 PM

"We are just so hesitant right now, with the economy in a downward spiral."

The economy goes up and it goes down. Don't let the media freak you out. It is perfectly normal for a free market economy to take a nose dive now and again. If you're out of work, then that's bad, but if you're working and have your ducks more or less together, this is a peachy time to buy. One can never predict the very bottom of the market so one should buy when its going down. Are you going to want to sell again in six months? No. So what's to worry if the prices go down further another six months? If you wait too long,the house may be gone.

Posted by: sam at December 8, 2008 4:59 PM

Having met Hubby, I look forward to seeing that.
Somehow, I don't think he will be too keen on it.
You will stand out, that is a given.

Posted by: Montrose Morris at December 8, 2008 5:00 PM

Oh no, Dave, QOTD is:

"Let me know if you go see it, I'll come with you to protect you from all of the urban denizens the What thinks are training on the block. He must mean the drum and bugle corp that sometimes practices at the church."

Montrose, you're hysterical today.

BRG, go check it out, seriously. This is a good time to buy, as long as rents in the area are high enough to support your costs. If you can get the mortgage price down to below jumbo size, which I vaguely recall might be 750, it'll be easier. You can put down 20 percent or 3 percent with an FHA loan but then you have to do PMI and that adds $300 per month.

Don't be intimidated by those crazy fixer-upper costs people throw around. You do NOT have to replace all the electrical and plumbing, that is nonsense. OTOH, if you plan to make changes to baths and kitchens, or the water pressure is but a trickle on the top floor, then you will probably replace a pipe here or there.

Can we come to the house warming?

Posted by: mopar at December 8, 2008 5:03 PM

Montrose--where would we be without you? Thanks for your wit and wisdom and great attitude about urban life. You are a Brownstoner treasure.

9.75%? What where are you getting that number from?

Posted by: wasder at December 8, 2008 5:12 PM

I was in this house too. ( I think I saw every house that was for sale in CH and BS.) At the time they were only showing the garden and parlor. The parlor certainly is beautiful. The Library room pictured is the center room in the parlor level. There were family tenants in the upstairs floors and I imagine you will need new mechanicals. The owners were quite nice. I believe that the price of the house that's for sale next door is flexible, and the house is in prime shape. I didn't see i t, but I've met the owner and know the kind of work he puts into his properties. Worth a look. Both houses have curb cuts. The house next door even has a garage.

Posted by: Susan Elkins at December 8, 2008 5:15 PM

MM - we'll do whatever it takes to 'fit in'.

Yes, Now is probably the best time to buy (unfortunately, not a time to sell), that's why we're going to resume our search.
We're self-employed in a profession that is heavily dependant on a very healthy economy, that's why we hesitate.

Mopar - hubby and I know all about renovation costs ;-)

Only a select few will be invited to the house warming. And expect to help sand woodwork.

Posted by: bayridgegirl at December 8, 2008 5:18 PM

Oh, I love to paint!

Posted by: mopar at December 8, 2008 5:25 PM

Susan Elkins:

I suspected "family tenants"! The place definitely has the feeling of the "grands" Victorian twins, although this is more Edwardian, right Montrose?

If I were to buy this place, I'd probably leave the kitchens and bathrooms where they are. They make the place quirky -- and functional. (So much better to have a satellite kitchen handy rather than have to run down to the main one at "garden" level all the time.)

Too bad about the curb cut, though. Yes, I understand the convenience, but a bit of landscape would more fit the block. (I don't imagine the LPC would permit a new curb cut now.)

Something I've noticed since Brownstoner asked people to register: the remarks about Crown Heights are generally positive and/or constructive.

MM, Bay Ridge Girl, Amzi and others are definitely making space for my old neighborhood in Brownstone Brooklyn, even if it's cyber-space. No doubt there'll be real space benefits, if these haven't already occurred.

Nice.

NOP

Posted by: NOP at December 8, 2008 5:39 PM

Montrose Morris you are a pompous black Asshat! I would like to see how many of your new found friends have your back in the months ahead. Gentrification is Neo Colonialism!

The same people you cozy up with want to see every black person erased from your neighborhood but you are so full of your self, you can't see it! Let''s see if the Asshats are going to float your "Comps" and keep your dream alive.

"What, you bitch that you are treated like a second class citizen in your own neighborhood, (Fulton St. thread), you take delight in people getting mugged in Clinton Hill (mugging thread), and now you tell people not to move to Crown Heights because the boyz in the hood are cleaning their weapons."

Look Dumbass walk to Dean and Nostrand and stand out stupid! Notice that those dudes are not the Starbucks crowd!

" You are as obsolete as a "brother" in a pimp suit, with matching hat and shoes, in a pink caddy, rolling down Fulton Street. A whole lotta flash, but no substance."

Pink Gators to match the pink suit baby and I would put your skank ass on the track...

The What (A Pimp Called The What)

Someday this war is gonna end...

Posted by: Return of The What at December 8, 2008 6:15 PM

Then again, you still have posts like RTW's at 6.15. NOP

Posted by: NOP at December 8, 2008 6:20 PM

Maybe I'll buy this house. I haven't fixed up a house in four years. My wife will kill me. She is, unlike me, a native New Yorker who grew up under the strict rules of New York apartheid. Really, New York was as bad as South Africa in that sense. People are affected by the values of the times in which they grow up. She, we, have always felt that "over there" was not for people like us. But you know what? Things have changed. Why not buy in Crown Heights? It is so beautiful. Will many affluent persons under, say 35, have any qualms about buying in a mostly Black middle class community in years to come? What an interesting question right? I love this house, I love Montrosse and I really appreciate the effort that the community has made to improve their blocks -even to the extent of having the area landmarked. I mean, these are amazing days. Some see financial doom, I see such incredible new possibilities for Brooklyn.

Posted by: sam at December 8, 2008 7:47 PM

"Montrose Morris you are a pompous black Asshat! I would like to see how many of your new found friends have your back in the months ahead. Gentrification is Neo Colonialism!

Finally the What's true personality comes out. Ranting, racist lunatic.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at December 8, 2008 8:23 PM

The What simply wants to keep white and asian people out of traditional black neighborhoods. That is his whole Schtick. Apartheid preservation.
Poor guy.
Asshat extraordiniare.

Posted by: sam at December 8, 2008 8:53 PM

"Montrose Morris you are a pompous black Asshat!"

I will truly cherish this one. If I didn't want to be anonymous, I'd put this on a tee shirt, and wear it proudly. I might do it anyway, and sell it. After I make piles of money, and buy all the great houses I've seen in Crown Heights, I can sit back in one of my mansions, on my very comfortable $20,000 leather Ralph Lauren tufted sofa I have my eye on, and say "Thanks, What." I couldn't have done it without YOU!

Posted by: Montrose Morris at December 9, 2008 12:16 AM

Sam, thanks for the kind words, and I'd welcome you, and anyone else to the neighborhood who cared about the community, and was interested in being a vital part of it. Building anything worth keeping is hard work, and Crown Heights North is definitely worth it. It's even better when we have such good stock to work with.

Montrose Morris,PBA

Posted by: Montrose Morris at December 9, 2008 12:30 AM

I like this house. My brownstone is 2-family, but my and my siblings families have free run of the place. As a "multi-generational" multi-family, I think this will go for between $850k-925k. My reasoning is: In this economic climate, whole/extended families will pull together to save on multiple mortgages and rents. Also, this house (from the pics) seems to be in good (not "realtor" good, but "I can move in now" good) condition and it's under the million dollar mark unlike the house next door.

When will sellers learn that no one wants to pay the mansion tax??

Posted by: i_heart_brooklyn at December 9, 2008 1:12 AM

"The What simply wants to keep white and asian people out of traditional black neighborhoods. That is his whole Schtick. Apartheid preservation.
Poor guy.
Asshat extraordiniare."

You see I don't hide my disdain for people who just got here. The "white people" you talk about have a agenda. Gentrification is the problem! I wonder where all the interest came from? I will tell you, it's called hot money poring into Asset classes. Did you know that Asshat Hill just got a Pizza Parlor and a Chinese Restaurant in 1999. During this time crime had fallen to record levels and the neighborhood got better. I did not see on Asshat during this time! From 2002 to now this city is infected with some of the most stuck-up, pertencious, smug Asshats the world has ever know. Long time residents of Greenpoint and Williamsburg (Who happen to be mostly white) was displaced from their neighborhoods so Muffy and Biffy can overpay to live next to a crackhouse!

This is the reason Asshats, you have ferked this city up. Let's look at Atlantic Yards and Citypoint (formally Albee Square Mall). You and I know damn well these projects will never be built and all for the speculation will leave house abandoned for years to come !

So before you say that I'm a racist lets take a look at the Blog that is the harbinger of Racism! Cover Race/Class warfare takes place here everyday. You punks hide behind your keyboards accusing people of being Drug Dealers and Prostitutes! But when it's time to "Man Up" you put your head down and take your behind home and don't interact with your neighbors! You hide behind a veneer of niceness but deep down inside you want to steal their neighborhood away!

That's why I do what I do. I view this whole thing (Brownstoner) an act of war!!!

2009 will be your "Waterloo" and I will be sitting by a tree watching the whole thing implode.

The What (Brooklyn's Finest!!!!)

Someday this WAR is gonna end...

Posted by: Return of The What at December 9, 2008 1:21 AM

Here ya go Montross! This is something for you to suck down!!

Smiling Faces Undisputed Truth

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sV69WBvFGBA

Smiling faces sometimes pretend to be your friend
Smiling faces show no traces of the evil that lurks within
Smiling faces, smiling faces sometimes
They don't tell the truth uh
Smiling faces, smiling faces
Tell lies and I got proof

The truth is in the eyes
Cause the eyes don't lie, amen
Remember a smile is just
A frown turned upside down
My friend let me tell you
Smiling faces, smiling faces sometimes
They don't tell the truth, uh
Smiling faces, smiling faces
Tell lies and I got proof
Beware, beware of the handshake
That hides the snake
I'm telling you beware
Beware of the pat on the back
It just might hold you back
Jealousy (jealousy)
Misery (misery)
Envy

I tell you, you can't see behind smiling faces
Smiling faces sometimes they don't tell the truth
Smiling faces, smiling faces
Tell lies and I got proof

Smiling faces, smiling faces sometimes
They don't tell the truth
Smiling faces, smiling faces
Tell lies and I got proof
(Smiling faces, smiling faces sometimes)
(Smiling faces, smiling faces sometimes)
I'm telling you beware, beware of the handshake
That hides the snake
Listen to me now, beware
Beware of that pat on the back
It just might hold you back
Smiling faces, smiling faces sometimes
They don't tell the truth
Smiling faces, smiling faces
Tell lies and I got proof

Your enemy won't do you no harm
Cause you'll know where he's coming from
Don't let the handshake and the smile fool ya
Take my advice I'm only try' to school ya

The What

Someday this war is gonna end..

Posted by: Return of The What at December 9, 2008 1:25 AM

"You see I don't hide my disdain for people who just got here. The "white people" you talk about have a agenda."

All white people meet 6.30 tomorrow night at the secret-downstairs gentrification headquarters for phase 2 of the masterplan. I think the tWat has rumbled the game.

Posted by: dittoburg at December 9, 2008 8:14 AM

I'm with you dittoburg. Nothing like a bunch of middle aged white Asshats marauding through the hoods cutting a path of pillage and gentrification.

We've got an agenda. There's gonna be change you can believe in. A pizza parlor on every corner and fresh pasta and organic milk in the bodegas. Let's really "ferk" this city up.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at December 9, 2008 8:29 AM

Sam--you raise an interesting point about people being "affected by the values of their times". I look at my two and a half year old growing up in Clinton Hill and she is truly color blind. I look forward to seeing what the world is like when these kids are the ones running things.

Posted by: wasder at December 9, 2008 8:37 AM

ditto, sorry I missed the meeting. What's the expected timing of the opening of the indoor squash court and adjoining Hermes store at the corner of you know where?

Biff

Someday this disclaimer will end...

*My view and opinion expressed above does not necessarily represent the opinions of other posters or the directors, officers and employees or advertisers of this blog.*

Posted by: Biff Champion at December 9, 2008 8:48 AM

Hermes? I thought it was Coach Biff.

Posted by: wasder at December 9, 2008 9:01 AM

oops wasder, you're right. The Hermes is going to be sandwiched between the Prada and Versace boutiques, kitty corner to Louis Vuitton.

Posted by: Biff Champion at December 9, 2008 9:18 AM

Oohh, I love squash! Baked, with butter, and a sprinkle of brown sugar......

You white people really know how to live.

Posted by: Montrose Morris at December 9, 2008 9:24 AM

butternut squash with gorgonzola and walnuts...pompous white Asshat food!!!

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at December 9, 2008 9:33 AM

MM, that was hilarious. You'll have to come over for tea and scones sometime. I want you to see this magnificent new Andy Williams Christmas Special DVD box set I just received.

Smiling faces, smiling faces, everybody!

Posted by: Biff Champion at December 9, 2008 9:41 AM

The fact that The What at least recognizes some of the real consequences of whites moving to predominantly black neighborhoods is welcome commentary on this blog. You may hate the style, but the content is worthy of discussion.

Posted by: wpg at December 9, 2008 9:41 AM

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Just imagine how it would sound if anyone spoke of "the real consequences" blacks moving to predominantly white.

Posted by: Biff Champion at December 9, 2008 9:44 AM

"predominantly white neighborhoods", that is...

Posted by: Biff Champion at December 9, 2008 9:44 AM

wpg---the content is worthy of discussion but it is hard to separate the content from the style and the style is so unpleasant and harsh that one comes to the conclusion that there is no actual desire on the What's part for constructive dialogue (I am sure you will all be surprised by this conclusion! Not!)

Posted by: wasder at December 9, 2008 9:51 AM

wasder, you've nailed it again. And to me, integration is a positive thing for EVERYONE, as you've seen from your very personal experiences with your daughter, as an example. Sounds like a certain poster is advocating a return to segregation...just amazing as we come out of a presidential election that should give all of us such hope for the future.

Posted by: Biff Champion at December 9, 2008 10:07 AM

Peachy keen, Biff!

I've been catching up on the facts (http://stuffwhitepeoplelike.com/), and I'm ready. I've always liked Andy's red Christmas scarf.

Wpg, Wasder is right. Lord knows I'll go on about the ramifications and complications of gentrification, race relations, and integration with the best of them. They still are the topics de jour that define us as a city and nation. Unfortunately, most of those conversations on this blog soon deteriorate because of people who really don't want to have an honest discussion of tough problems, they just want to be totally out of line, call people names, and write nonsense for the sole sake of pissing others off. If that's the case, I'd just as soon make fun of the whole thing, have a cup of eggnog with Biff, and listen to Andy.

Montrose Morris, PBA

Posted by: Montrose Morris at December 9, 2008 10:27 AM

With all due respect to Andy, I'll need lots of rum in my eggnog to get through that box set!

Posted by: Biff Champion at December 9, 2008 10:33 AM

MM...I like the added PBA designation. Are you merely a member or might you be the Chairman as well?

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at December 9, 2008 10:38 AM

"The fact that The What at least recognizes some of the real consequences of whites moving to predominantly black neighborhoods is welcome commentary on this blog. You may hate the style, but the content is worthy of discussion."

wpg: Do I know you? Did you ever live on PPW & Garfield?

The content does need to be looked at. What raises issues that bear rational and thoughtful discussion. The presentation isn't always "pretty-ed up", but I believe the substance is there.

Posted by: cobblehiller at December 9, 2008 11:01 AM

cobblehiller--as you can see from my posts in the last few weeks I have spent more time trying to engage with everyone (What included) on a more constructive level, rather than trying to score points against him which was my previous stance. I totally agree that this stuff is worthy of discussion but he really needs to step up to the plate and play like a big boy if he wants anyone to take him seriously. He set himself back big time yesterday (IMO--of course) with his commentary on the Dean Street house.

Posted by: wasder at December 9, 2008 11:08 AM

I imagine what makes Biff and DIBS so uncomfortable is that The What isn't, for their psychic convenience, an "angry renter" or a bitter Lodi realtor, but someone who a.) saw the RE bubble for what it was, and as we now know b.) was motivated by disgust at the smug upper middle class interloper who strolls into a neighborhood, sees the "good bones," and ignores the fact that his interloping (often) displaces someone of lesser means, who is also often a person of color. How flattering, to think one is "breaking down apartheid like barriers," when one opens gourmet stores of no feasible interest to the original locals, or drives up rents until the 'hood is no longer affordable for anyone but other interlopers. I love that how, as The What proves right, the discussion turns to his manners. You people are intellectual cowards.

Posted by: Whuh at December 9, 2008 11:17 AM

Whuh, I'm not uncomfortable. Project much?

Smiling faces, smiling faces :)

Posted by: Biff Champion at December 9, 2008 11:29 AM

Whuh--I am no coward of any sort. I have tried mightily to engage in constructive dialogue on this and other issues pertaining to gentrification and manners is besides the point. Taking a position that has no possible manner of refutation or engagement is intellectually dishonest and cowardly. On either side of this issue there are people who will not find middle ground. What is only the most "famous" of these but in no means is the only one who deserves criticism.

But to get to your points, how should the average middle class person who is looking to upgrade their living situation do so without moving into a neighborhood where the housing stock is cheaper? And what is wrong with seeing "good bones" and trying to fix it up? None of us have "broken down barriers of apartheid". Social, technological and economic changes of the past few decades have done this for us. I for one, cherish living in an environment where there are people of many different cultural and ethnic backgrounds. Part of the reason I like CLinton Hill so much is that there is so much for me to learn about it. But the fact of the matter is that to "improve" a neighborhood--to repair crumbling houses, spruce up decaying streetscapes, increase neighborhood services etc--takes money and so the uncomfortable reality is that those with ready capital are the ones most likely to benefit and those without are most likely to be displaced. What would you do about it oh great thinker?

Posted by: wasder at December 9, 2008 11:34 AM

Whuh...you are completely clueless as to what a neighborhood may or may not want. Except for maybe some foreclosures that are going on now, people who were selling their homes for the last 10 years or so were not being "displaced." Fool.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at December 9, 2008 11:35 AM

It's not my job to defend What's behavior, but I will defend the concepts and ideas that I believe he is correct in promoting discussion on.

Gentrification has and always will be, for the foreseeable future, a serious and difficult topic in Brooklyn. It hasn't always been handled well, although there clearly have been some positive benefits. Some see it as a race thing, I think it's more of a class issue myself. With the less wealthy people being disenfranchised and steamrolled by 'the money'. It's pretty basic, and not all that complicated, from my perspective. Race has been an issue, but I see that as not quite as much of an issue as class/money. The eminent domain of Atlantic Yards is one example, the BQE is another prime example - the damage done to the Columbia Street communities is a story that I don't think has ever really been told properly.

Just because some person has money, doesn't mean they 'know' best what should happen in a neighborhood, and without proper and thoughtful discussion issues require - it is going to be difficult to acheive a positive result.

The BID is a good example also. The assumption that all bodegas are "drug" infested is outrageous. [Granted that usually was the case on Myrtle years ago - don't ask me how I know that, I will deny everything.] How can the shops be supported and encouraged to grow their businesses without the new neighbors that bought a $2 million brownstone and who now seem to expect goat cheese at the corner store now giving them a hard time. They were here, they've worked for their piece of this universe, who are you/me/anyone to come in and say - it's yucky, I want a Citerella here. It's rude for starters, and it becomes increasingly difficult to create positive discourse and degrades from there.

What lobs cherry bombs, I prefer a sparkler. The intent and the concerns are the same. To ask people to think about the realities of what is happening.

Posted by: cobblehiller at December 9, 2008 11:35 AM

And I would add that as it pertains to What's calling of the collapse of the real estate bubble I have been careful to give credit where it is due. I just think that once you start talking about who is an "interloper" etc you are treading on dangerous ground. I was born in Brooklyn, have lived here practically my whole adult life (am 41 yo) but I have only lived in Clinton Hill 7 years. Am I an interloper?

Posted by: wasder at December 9, 2008 11:40 AM

Speaking of cowardly, what would you call it to make the kind of statement you made and then not answer any of the posts in return Whuh?

Posted by: wasder at December 9, 2008 11:43 AM

Uhm, wasder, maybe he has a meeting, or is on a call.

Posted by: cobblehiller at December 9, 2008 11:51 AM

"What would you do about it oh great thinker?"
wasder, The What and Whuh would build moats and walls around traditional white, black and asian neighborhoods. I'm not naive to believe there are no issues associated with integration, but let's recognize the positives and work on the tough issues so everybody can ultimately live together as one community while still appreciating and cherishing cultural and ethnic differences.

"Some see it as a race thing, I think it's more of a class issue myself."
cobblehiller, I agree with much of what you said. I believe DIBS has put his money where his mouth is by not only moving to Bed Stuy, but, in my view, doing quite a bit to try to improve the neighborhood. I'm sure much more, in fact, than those who criticize him. If Whuh considers this "interloping", I think that's very unfortunate. It's not a race issue. How many artists in SoHo, East Village, DUMBO, etc. who are white were driven out of those and many other neighborhoods. I've always advocated affordable housing (and other initiatives aimed at trying not to displace people from their homes and neighborhoods) and have heavily criticized developers who didn't come through on promises of such.

I like your idea of moving from cherry bombs to sparklers and apologize for hurtful things I've said to you in the heat of discussion.

Posted by: Biff Champion at December 9, 2008 11:54 AM

Yeah, cobblehiller, he might be in a meeting. But still, to lob that in there and then skedaddle is pretty lame.

Posted by: wasder at December 9, 2008 11:55 AM

Biff---nice touch at the end there. I would love to see raprochement between you and cobblehiller on account of the fact that I like you both immensely.

Posted by: wasder at December 9, 2008 11:56 AM

gosh- I missed all the fun. Although the idea of Montrose sitting around listening to the Andy Williams boxed set is a bit frightening.

That house is so amazing- bayridgegirl, c'mon down! I've lived around the corner from there since 2003. I love the neighborhood- people are friendly, kind to cats (you will appreciate that too, sam) and while CHN has its problems, it's far, far, far from the hellhole the What wants everyone to think it is.

That said, there should be dialogue about gentrification and the impact on poorer neighborhoods. I've kidded my landlord that its their fault whites have come to crown heights- when I moved here there were very few. But at no time did I ever get the hostility and anger. It may be a societal and community feeling, but not a personal one. And I think that poorer neighborhoods do see some benefits from gentrification- better stores, for instance.

It's an unfortunate fact that neighborhoods like Crown Heights North didn't get the attention they deserved until whites began buying into the neighborhood. Despite all the homeowners, all the political work, all the beautiful architecture- CHN was thought of as just another poor, crime-ridden neighborhood. Yet the accomplishments of CHNA are really a testament to the people who have lived here for years. They are the backbone of Crown Heights and the truth of it is, in most poor neighborhoods you hear only about the crime, the poverty, the bad stuff. But in all of these neighborhoods you will always find a core of hardworking, motivated, community minded people who put their resources and strengths together to try to improve their neighborhoods. They never get recognized, sadly for all of us.

Whuh- If the What improved his communication skills, he'd be better able to make his point. Instead he distracts everyone with insults and rants. It's just sad for him that he tried to take on Montrose. Very sad.

Posted by: bxgrl at December 9, 2008 11:56 AM

The real estate run up (i.e Mutant Real Estate Bubble) that many historically affordable neighborhoods (BS, CH etc) experienced in the last few years, helped create the situation that is playing out today. True, some people overextended themselves however, they are not responsible for exponential price increases that has destroyed the affordability of their working class neighborhood. People are losing their homes in your neighborhood. Why?

I am not implying that there is any willful malevolence buying in an 'up and coming ' neighborhood, but it is disingenuous to think there are no ill effects.

Posted by: wpg at December 9, 2008 11:56 AM

bxgrl, where on earth have you been? people have been asking about you. You have to come around here more often. Regarding the What taking on MM; if that doesn't show poor judgement, I don't know what does. Might as well attack motherhood and apple pies at this point.

wasder, thanks. I think cobblehiller's a very good person at heart who supports and cares about her community immensely, and has done it for a long time. We can disagree on things, but it shouldn't have gotten personal. I would rather use my negative energy on my real enemies :-)

Posted by: Biff Champion at December 9, 2008 12:06 PM

When I moved here, I certainly didn't see myself as a "gentrifyer" (no money, renter) but I am sure to some in the neighborhood any white person was a symbol of that. We do need an honest discussion of why gentrification engenders so much anger- and that means understanding the meaning of "home" and "neighborhood." I've always felt the MREB made everything in terms of money- if you could afford it, it was yours. There was a real coldheartedness that went along with it, and a real lack of concern for others.

I can't count how many times posters on brownstoner said if you couldn't afford your neighborhood you should just move. there is a difference between not being able to afford a neighborhood you want to move into, and being forced out of your home for many years. I assume much of What's anger comes from the highhanded treatment of longtime residents in poor and working class neighborhoods- and I am not trying to speak for him.

But until there is an open and honest discussion about the impact of gentrification, and the feeling the wealthy are running roughshod over the rest of us, I think you can expect nothing to change.

Posted by: bxgrl at December 9, 2008 12:09 PM

Hey biff- just been busy and going through a lot of personal stuff. Hoping the New Year will be better (not sure how, just became unemployed.)

Actually I missed brownstoner and everyone.so when's the next party??

Posted by: bxgrl at December 9, 2008 12:12 PM

Nice to see you back bxgrl.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at December 9, 2008 12:13 PM

"I've always felt the MREB made everything in terms of money- if you could afford it, it was yours. There was a real coldheartedness that went along with it, and a real lack of concern for others.

I can't count how many times posters on brownstoner said if you couldn't afford your neighborhood you should just move."

Very interesting bxgirl (welcome back btw). I agree that the emphasis on money over community is a big part of the issue. Having only stumbled upon Brownstoner after the bubble was collapsing, I missed out on the callous years as you describe (the "if you can't afford it move" attitude). Was it really that cold hearted here?

Posted by: wasder at December 9, 2008 12:14 PM

sorry to hear about your job bxgirl...

Posted by: wasder at December 9, 2008 12:16 PM

thanks! Well, as they say, one door closes, another opens. I'm hoping to use this time to go back to my own art, away from the computer graphics world. I won't stop doing freelance, but I'll have a bit more time to do my own. Heck- I can always eat the cats in a pinch.:-)

Posted by: bxgrl at December 9, 2008 12:23 PM

"I like your idea of moving from cherry bombs to sparklers and apologize for hurtful things I've said to you in the heat of discussion."

I was never in cherry bomb 'mode'. I'm considering your apology.

Posted by: cobblehiller at December 9, 2008 12:37 PM

"But in all of these neighborhoods you will always find a core of hardworking, motivated, community minded people who put their resources and strengths together to try to improve their neighborhoods. They never get recognized, sadly for all of us." bxgrl

"I am not implying that there is any willful malevolence buying in an 'up and coming ' neighborhood, but it is disingenuous to think there are no ill effects." wpg

I think bxgrl's statement really gets to the heart of it. There needs to be a joint and inclusive effort. Otherwise, the ill effects, resentment towards new people, class isues, etc. will just continue and snow ball.

Posted by: cobblehiller at December 9, 2008 12:40 PM

wasder- yes it was. ah, the good old days- when if you were a renter you were called a loser, bitter, underachiever, dumb (because you couldn't figure out how to buy your own house), etc. And poor people were poor because they wanted to be, they were losers who would rather be on welfare than work, etc.

It was only a few people, but it could get pretty awful.

Posted by: bxgrl at December 9, 2008 12:40 PM

Sorry to hear about your job bxgrl. I'm out, too. 12.31.08. Something will come - keep your chin up and enjoy the holidays in spite of it all!

Posted by: cobblehiller at December 9, 2008 12:41 PM

Was it really that cold hearted here?

Yes. She's right wasder. The idea was you are an 'idiot' if you can't/didn't buy a house. I used to say to my sister all the time, how are people doing this? How are they affording this? And now I know. Fools like me thought you needed to have a 20-30% or higher deposit to buy a house. And a years salary in the bank in case of a downturn in the job market. And I have been derided as a bitter renter because I tried to do it the RIGHT way.

Posted by: cobblehiller at December 9, 2008 12:45 PM

Well I guess that the registration of commenters (though people bitch about it) has possibly helped the tone of the dialogue here. Or maybe its because nobody can pretend that the housing market is going strong anymore. Either way, a reality check has been in line for Brooklyn for some time so I guess that is where we are at.

cobblehiller--come on, you can do it.

and yes, chins up and holidays enjoyed!

Posted by: wasder at December 9, 2008 12:46 PM

cobblehiller--your wanting to do it the right way will be rewarded some day I would bet. I am glad you didn't join in the melee. I was able to buy my house because I bought a super cheap one bedroom in 2002 and have since bought and sold twice to get the house where I am. Don't know if it makes me part of the problem or the solution but I know that I am doing my best to integrate into my neighborhood with good intentions.

and when I said "you can do it" i was talking about accepting the apology.

Posted by: wasder at December 9, 2008 12:50 PM

"I think cobblehiller's a very good person at heart who supports and cares about her community immensely, and has done it for a long time. We can disagree on things, but it shouldn't have gotten personal. I would rather use my negative energy on my real enemies :-)"

Alright wasder, here you go...

In the name of peace, I will accept your apology Biff.

Posted by: cobblehiller at December 9, 2008 12:52 PM

YAYY!! And the angels sang...

Posted by: wasder at December 9, 2008 12:54 PM

Ok, let's not get too crazy here...I didn't say I was going to be his BFF {best friend forever).

Posted by: cobblehiller at December 9, 2008 12:57 PM

Hey, welcome back Bxgrl! Missed ya. Cats can be a bit chewy and gristley. Not good.

I think gentrification, like most things in this world, is a give and take. For every new, green industry job, someone loses an old traditional job. For every automated ticket machine, or check out machine, a cashier is unemployed. It is unfortunate, yet a fact of life, that those on the bottom always get screwed. You can do one of two things, as a caring member of society, opt out, and live in a cave, or live your life doing what you have to for yourself, and devote some of your time and money to helping others.

I think something bedstuy11216 said yesterday is so true - just because our neighborhoods are lacking in services, better stores, etc, should we accept the status quo, in its "authenticity", or do we deserve better - all of us? I'm sorry, I deserve better, my neighbor on welfare down the street deserves better, and the person who just bought the 1.2 mil house down the block does too. That is one of the upside of gentrification. Not that Bob Whitebread wants arugula and free range chicken, but that all of us want fresh produce and meat at a fair price. A neighborhood like Bed Stuy or Crown Heights has plenty of room for all kinds of retail, from bargain stores to boutiques. It doesn't have to be all or nothing.

It is unfortunate and racist/classist that improved services/stores/attention seems to follow only when the wealthier white folks move in. But they wouldn't be moving in, if it weren't for, as bxgrl said, people who have held it together for years, and organizations that work to improve things for everyone, most of which were here before the "first wave" moved in.

I say, use it. Use the attention, the press coverage, the new money, the new people, and form our unique agendas. The increased police protection protects all of us. The better grocery stores serve all of us. Any retailer, or grocer with half a brain today is not going to snub huge sections of potential customers by catering to a small minority, if he does, he will be out of business.

We use our considerable power to demand affordable housing, to demand fairness in social service allocations, to demand that job creation is a part of every large project. To be a gentrifier in my neighborhood should mean more than just getting some great real estate for less than in Park Slope. I don't see how anyone can move anywhere and not be involved in some way in making things better. That may go no further than getting all of your neighbors to pick up the trash on the sidewalk, but it all is something to the good.

There are plenty of parts of gentrification that piss me off and that I hate. The idea that a house, an apartment, a neighborhood is no more than a transitory station to be abandoned when one's financial betters arrive being chief among them. There is much to discuss, and I welcome thoughtful discussion, as I welcome new neighbors.

Montrose Morris, PBA Chairperson

Posted by: Montrose Morris at December 9, 2008 1:01 PM

haha--i am all in fun about this. he probably isn't even reading this thread anymore anyway so if you want to retract its easy enough. but really you and biff being enemies just doesn't make much sense to me.

Posted by: wasder at December 9, 2008 1:02 PM

I dunno, cobblehiller- I'd have a tough time forgiving someone who actually owns a boxed set of Andy Williams. True aficionados own boxed sets of Perry Como :-) (but I love you anyway biff!). I think Biff should provide us all with rum laced...no, infused,...no....infested with rum!

Sorry about your job too. I made up me mind, this is still a holiday season and I'm going to enjoy it as much as I can. I'm making all my gifts, like I used to do, and hopefully throwing a couple of family dinners (cat recipes anyone?) and hope for the best, for all of us.

Posted by: bxgrl at December 9, 2008 1:02 PM

"I don't see how anyone can move anywhere and not be involved in some way in making things better. That may go no further than getting all of your neighbors to pick up the trash on the sidewalk, but it all is something to the good."

This is the crux of it...Anyone who doesn't think this way, especially when moving to an "emerging" neighborhood, is very short sighted and probably not someone you want as a neighbor. In my neck of the woods I welcome anyone who wants to make the street nicer, be friendly and get involved no matter what color their skin is...

Posted by: wasder at December 9, 2008 1:09 PM

Yes, MM. My neighbors on my block want the empty storefronts occupied as much as I do. They don't want a Crown Chicken coming in around the corner and they are all active in the community association. They have probably all been in their homes for 50 years or more and they are delightful neighbors. I'm the only white one on my side of the block. It is a really great great neighborhood. We all pitch in to clean up the paper trash that blows around (all originating from the bodega customers mind you) and shovel sidewalks in the winter.

Daveinbedstuy, PWA Steering Committee

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at December 9, 2008 1:09 PM

"he probably isn't even reading this thread anymore anyway so if you want to retract its easy enough."
wasder, we all know, for better or for worse, that once one hits the dreaded "Post" button, there is NO turning back. Our rapprochement (great word you threw out there!) has been forever recorded on this blog.

"I dunno, cobblehiller- I'd have a tough time forgiving someone who actually owns a boxed set of Andy Williams."
Did I really just welcome you back, bxgrl? :-) Ok, ok, I don't really own any Andy Williams DVDs (or CDs or albums...remember those?)....not that there's anything wrong with that. I'm so sorry too about the job situation. I think most people, job or no job, are bracing for a long recovery and being creative about the holiday season. At least there is a positive to be gained; we all have a chance to take stock of what we are most thankful for, our friends and families who can support us and whom we can support during very tough times like this.

Posted by: Biff Champion at December 9, 2008 1:16 PM

MM, thank you for spelling out some of the key points. I agree with you.

"To be a gentrifier in my neighborhood should mean more than just getting some great real estate for less than in Park Slope."

Central concept, but with all the 'trading up' for that Crown Heights Townhouse...it's a real dilemma. And truly, not just in CrH, but in CoH too. I have a super wealthy neighbor who doesn't even shop in the neighborhood! I almost told him to go back to Manhattan once...it was pretty irritating to hear him crap on CoH because there was a particular type of store in a 3 block radius.

Bx - doesn't cat taste just like chicken?

Posted by: cobblehiller at December 9, 2008 1:24 PM

cobblehiller, slightly off-topic, but not too much. After Sam's in Cobble Hill was featured as the ROTD, I went there on the weekend to try it, but it was closed. I couldn't get through on the phone to find out the hours. Is it just open in the evenings? I haven't tried Lucali's either yet...

Posted by: Biff Champion at December 9, 2008 1:36 PM

cobblehiller- er...I'm not sure. haven't tried it yet but it seems MM has (otherwise how would she know it's tough and gristley. I ask you?) I was thinking that a few of mine, based on personality, would taste like ham :-)

You did, biff- I'm pleased to hear you actually don't own the Andy Williams boxed set- I had just recovered my respect for you after the TOTO thread :-).

I think in a way I'm relieved about leaving this particular job- my boss and his wife were great, I had all the creativity I wanted in designing the programs and presentations, but working with first responders and doing the whole PTSD thing is really emotionally a beat down. I only wish I had their fortitude- I can do something else, those guys will just soldier through, no matter how hard it gets.

I'm scared- very much so. But I still have this feeling that , like Biff says, change can bring good things too. Maybe I'm nuts, but I really believe we needed to change. The financial collapse just showed us how much. I hope it'll will be for the better- people seem to be energized in ways I never thought would be possible in this country anymore. I'm thinking christmas is the new thanksgiving :-)

Posted by: bxgrl at December 9, 2008 1:38 PM

Cobblehiller, some people just like to hear the sound of their own voices. He sounds like an arrogant idiot, and I'm sure there are plenty of people around you who would agree.

I hope we all get together sometime in this holiday season. You are all great people.

"It's the most wonderful time of the year."

Montrose Morris, PBA

Posted by: Montrose Morris at December 9, 2008 1:42 PM

Hmm, not sure why they were closed? Mario's wife hasn't been too well recently, and Mario is pretty elderly himself at this point. I know they are closed on Mondays, but beyond that I'd say try calling again - late afternoon.

I haven't tried Lucali either, supposed to be good but we never think of it when it's not a Fri./Sat. night and super busy. (Hate crowds).

MM & Bxgrl: This just in...http://catrecipes.com/

Posted by: cobblehiller at December 9, 2008 1:51 PM

bxgrl, I know it sounds cliche, but most people I've known over the last few years to lose their jobs ended up so much happier than they were. It's definitely not an easy time now to find something, but you will eventually end up like those other friends of mine too. You're too smart and creative not to.

MM, things got crazy, or rather even crazier, for me at the Death Star this month (why did I choose to go into financial services again?) and I just didn't have the energy or time to organize a gathering. I'll be away for the second half of the month, so I can't organize another soiree until 2009 (doesn't mean others can't get together before that).

cobblehiller, thanks. I hope Mario and his wife are ok. I'll have to try late afternoon (will call first to be sure). I hear Lucali's is excellent and super-busy, like you said. Maybe the cold weather will discourage the crowds. I'm going to try to get there too. I also want to try Le Petit Cafe in Carroll Gardens. Didn't mean to turn this into a restaurant discussion, but your mentioning local businesses had me thinking of well regarded restaurants in your 'hood.

Posted by: Biff Champion at December 9, 2008 2:05 PM

Brownstoner:

Well, the What's late post yesterday really opened a new vein of conversation here. Clicked in and discovered the number of comments more than doubled!

There's a somber tone to the thread, too. Brownstone Brooklyn, like the rest of the country (and globe) is facing a very changed economic landscape. (Regrets about your job, BxGrl. I hope things turn your way soon.)

Perhaps some of the energy expended here should be exerted on the President-Elect. Notice how his jobs program is about roads, not mass transit? His reference is Eisenhower's federal highway building program, which helped nearly kill Brooklyn when I was growing up in Crown Heights in the 1950's!

Poor New York. Every year we send more than $15 billion in taxes to the Feds than we get back (it goes to all those "Red" states that scream about our "welfare queens"), and it looks like we're still not getting any respect! (At least FDR's public works built urban housing, schools and parks together with backwoods dams and electrical systems --again with New York and other industrial states' money.)

So, argue with the What, but e-mail the White House and Congress, too.

(My thoughts turned to mass transit because I recently, after several years, took the subway, the "Sixth Avenue" line between 34th and 4th Streets. This was part of the "Independent" subway system, the city's newest line, built during the 1930's as a public, not private venture, unlike all the prior lines. My grade-school civic books bleated proudly about the "I-N-D," with its spacious rolling stock and stations with gleaming white tiles, and their photographs swelled our little kids' hearts with pride. And what did I find now? The grimmest, shabbiest public environment imagineable, from leaking walls to gum-smeared floors. During this recent bubble of ours, it seems we've abandoned the public sphere. Now with that the bubble's burst, maybe it's time to get back to basics.)

Nostalgic on Park Avenue

Posted by: NOP at December 9, 2008 2:09 PM

NOP, the way the MTA is run is a discussion all its own, which would run well past a couple hundred comments.

There really is no good time to be unemployed, or to start a new business. Harder times just mean more ingenious ways of getting it done. I'm embracing that this coming year, and WILL be successful. I know bxgrl and cobblehiller will as well.

Biff, it wouldn't be the same without you! I can only imagine life on the Death Star is ulcer giving.

Montrose Morris, PBA

Posted by: Montrose Morris at December 9, 2008 3:17 PM

Holy Smoley!! That's alot of post.
Is it because I'm white and said I want to move to Crown Heights??

Posted by: bayridgegirl at December 9, 2008 3:22 PM

And Biff, Thanks!

Posted by: bayridgegirl at December 9, 2008 3:27 PM

yes, bayridgegirl. All your fault :-)

But we'd still like you to move here!

Posted by: bxgrl at December 9, 2008 3:35 PM

I just blame everything on BRG, it makes life simpler! ; )

Hang nail - BRGs fault
Bad coffee - BRGs fault
Broken heel - BRGs fault

Posted by: cobblehiller at December 9, 2008 3:44 PM

Today was very nice. I see the primates are banging their chest calling "Victory" over The What but, there is one thing missing...

The Mutant Asset Bubble is still imploding! You are losing your jobs by the boatload! Mortgage Lending has dried up. Investment Banking is dead. Appreciation is Asset prices has crashed. Christmas buying season is a disaster. NY Times had to Mortgage their building to stave off the inevitable. The Chicago Tribune filed Bankruptcy yesterday and will have to sell some it's prized assets (Chicago Cubs).

Let me show how really bad things are! People are accepting negative rates from US Treasuries because the faith in you economic system is gone.

Treasury Bills Trade at Negative Rates as Haven Demand Surges

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=a9p7NHTIZswU&refer=home

Dec. 9 (Bloomberg) -- Treasuries rose, pushing rates on the three-month bill negative for the first time, as investors gravitate toward the safety of U.S. government debt amid the worst financial crisis since the Great Depression.

The Treasury sold $27 billion of three-month bills yesterday at a discount rate of 0.005 percent, the lowest since it starting auctioning the securities in 1929. The U.S. also sold $30 billion of four-week bills today at zero percent for the first time since it began selling the debt in 2001.

You ever notice when someone is talking about the economy they always end the sentence with "since the Great Depression"......

Enjoy yourself, make merry and have fun! 2009 is here. I will call it "Year of The What"

The What

Someday this war is gonna end...

Posted by: Return of The What at December 9, 2008 6:14 PM

Well, I missed this whole change in direction. What, I'm appalled by your attack on Montrose.

There are more constructive ways to fight the worst aspects of gentrification than returning to the old days of apartheid, violence, and no services. That kind of neighborhood abandonment and disinvestment was not the norm, it was the product of racism.

Posted by: mopar at December 9, 2008 6:39 PM

What, Bed Stuy and Clinton Hill are full of black homeowners. Gentrification is not displacing them.

Montrose, Bed Stuy seems to be a happy exception to the whites-services rule. It has significant numbers of very nice businesses, all black owned. I presume they were not opened for the benefit of whites.

Posted by: mopar at December 9, 2008 6:45 PM

"What, I'm appalled by your attack on Montrose."

But no is "appalled" when someone attacks me. Look Mopar you are being disingenuous, save that crap for someone else. No one bothered to read my post, just a bunch of reactionary nonsense from the idiot camp. At this point I'm not trying to run for office and this is not the time to be soft. The Asshats brought into the idea of this Mutant Asset Bubble, think they can move into a neighborhood and magically change overnight with "We are here to help you" nonsense. Just like the Pilgrims telling the Indians "We hare her to be your friends", see how that turned out!

I'm so sorry that I'm not onboard with "We are the world" BS that spews forth from Montrose Morris mouth.

This film:SOME PLACE LIKE HOME
The Fight Against Gentrification in Downtown Brooklyn

Was posted in Brownstoner and guess what? To big up the hits of Covert Race/Warfare

http://www.brownstoner.com/brownstoner/archives/2008/11/there_is_somepl.php

Plenty of times Brownstoner injects Covert Race/Class warfare in every thing Marauding Teenagers, Black Homeless Women takes dump in the street, Oh this a Drug Dealer and Storefronts operation as Drug lookouts.

Last example, The BID thing!! Did Brownstoner take his Punk Ass on Fulton St and ask why is everyone against BID??? NO!!! WHY???? Because he wanted to promote more of the BS on this Blog!!

Look if you don't agree with me then don't reply to my posts, Oh BTW Ya'll can suck me off!!!

The What

Someday this war is gonna end....

Posted by: Return of The What at December 9, 2008 7:21 PM

What, you are advocating that black people should rob, mug, and murder each other and get ripped off by store owners so that no white person wants to move into a black neighborhood. Perhaps you're a white racist.

Also, plenty of people of color involved in the MAB at all levels.

Posted by: mopar at December 9, 2008 9:29 PM

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