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December 12, 2008
Home Ownership Bad for Your Health

Perhaps those who feel desperate to own a home will take a pause after reading this article from Portfolio. "Homeownership is overrated and... it carries a downside as well as an upside," they write, based on a study of health and happiness and home ownership among women.
I find little evidence that homeowners are happier by any of the following definitions: life satisfaction, overall mood, overall feeling, general moment-to-moment emotions (i.e., affect) and affect at home. Several factors might be at work: homeowners derive more pain (but no more joy) from both their home and their neighborhood. They are also more likely to be 12 pounds heavier, report lower health status and poorer sleep quality. They tend to spend less time on active leisure or with friends. The average homeowner reports less joy from love and relationships. She is also less likely to consider herself to enjoy being with people...
The great satisfaction from ownership, they say, comes when property values increase. Now that that's less likely, and in many cases values are decreasing, why buy at all, when you can rent and be happy? "In fact, if Americans could be persuaded that rent payments aren't 'wasted money' and that owning often makes less financial sense than renting, I think the rate of homeownership might, happily, drop substantially."
Homeownership Makes You Fat and Unhappy [Portfolio]
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Comments
I'm curious if they adjusted for age. When I rented I was younger and skinner. I don't think the mortgage has made me fat! I don't think owning has made me that much happier but its nice to have some control over colors and design...but responsiblity can be a downer.
Posted by: ebklyn at December 12, 2008 9:12 AM
those dang bitter rent stabbers. This is Curbed right?
Posted by: dittoburg at December 12, 2008 9:13 AM
moving every year seriously is a major workout, especially when youre paying ridiculous rents and can't afford a mover and have to do it all yourself *unless you have great friends to help* but they always seem to be busy when it's time to move. so yeah, i can buy the argument that us renters are skinnier. also homeowners always like to bake cookies i've noticed.
*rob*
Posted by: PitbullNYC at December 12, 2008 9:16 AM
Surveying 809 women in Ohio is hardly going to be an indicator in determining homeownership happiness in a nation of 300,000,000.
Posted by: bayridgegirl at December 12, 2008 9:21 AM
What a load of bs!
Posted by: heck_of_a_job_brownie at December 12, 2008 9:27 AM
If people are unhappy in their lives, I suspect it's alot deeper, and there are other issues than just homeownership.
This article was so trivial!
Posted by: bayridgegirl at December 12, 2008 9:33 AM
Indeed HOAJB this sounds like a ton of garbage and of the organic variety.
Rob that is funny about the friends:) Every time we've moved only our kind little brother has not been extremely busy...still love the friends though.
Posted by: pierre de taille at December 12, 2008 9:37 AM
Good thing I'm a man! Phew.
Posted by: East New York at December 12, 2008 9:39 AM
Someone really needs to give Don Hunt a call.
Posted by: East New York at December 12, 2008 9:41 AM
Boy! do I disagree with that finding. For me, autonomy is the crux of the matter - not being subject to the whims of others (landlords or co-op/condo regulations.) All the other points are good too - & I stay fit doing misc. tasks & haven't gained an ounce in 25 years of home ownership.
Posted by: Arkady at December 12, 2008 9:43 AM
so basically homeowners are more likely to be married?
Posted by: lalaland at December 12, 2008 9:50 AM
I haven't been bitter since 1984. I also weigh about the same as when I got out of college,
I just hope this is still more or less on topic lest 11217 attacks me.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at December 12, 2008 9:51 AM
"Balderdash!!
BRG is correct. How trivial."
QOTD
Posted by: bayridgegirl at December 12, 2008 9:51 AM
I wonder if they interviewed any people who are still renting and retired on a fixed income? Once you pay down that mortgage that has made you fat,irritable and without joy or a relationship you're living RENT FREE!!!! Whooppie!!!
Does it say anything anout whether homeowners are more or less promiscuous??? BRG??? 11217????
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at December 12, 2008 10:02 AM
Hey DIBS you are on topic thankfully. We were really busy yesterday so today we just read thru the Connelly mansion thread (wanted to know peoples take on it) and have to agree it was pathetically ruined by silly irrelevant digressions from you, biff & brg. We respect you guys but common those digressions were beyond immature... 11217 was absolutely correct we are afraid.
Posted by: pierre de taille at December 12, 2008 10:04 AM
Pierre, while we value your thoughts, please post on topic about Homeownership and your health.
All posts have been on topic so far, except yours.
Posted by: bayridgegirl at December 12, 2008 10:08 AM
This "study" appears to have had so little control over any of its variables that it likely has zero internal or external validity. Is this an example of the growing trend toward positive psychology or the so-called science of happiness?
I am curious about the upside to renting - as in how is it not to be considered throwing money away, how it can sometimes be a sounder financial decision and so on. I'd like to see more about that, because I too am biased in this regard. Renting a two or three bedroom apartment in Manhattan costs an astounding amount each month and it is not applied toward eventual ownership of anything. So I can't see the upside easily. Help?
Of greater import, the man in the red hoodie has been banished to the ether that is Brownstoner back pages. Sigh.
You think he'll ever know of his short-lived fame?
Posted by: Nokilissa at December 12, 2008 10:10 AM
Oui BRG. C'est domage.
Back on topic...this is the most assinine blog hipster article I've ever seen. Written by someone named after a fish too.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at December 12, 2008 10:11 AM
"An interesting portrait of homeowners emerges from my analysis. I find little evidence that homeowners are happier by any of the following definitions: "
What analysis?? What evidence?? Where's the statistical data to support any conclusion that this Asshat makes?? I'm actually interested in seeing the What's take on this since, to me, this whole story is one of the most ridiculuous things I've ever seen written by a so-called journalist.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at December 12, 2008 10:15 AM
It may not be a meaningfully rigorous study; but the zeitgeist is changing on the virtues of owning. An underwater mortgage is the opposite of autonomy. All the hassles of owning appear weightless when you know you can flip six months later for a big profit. An entirely different mentality sinks in when prices are deflating. Houses will be regarded as millstones; not forever, but before there's a turnaround. I know DIBS thinks the universe owes him a bailout, but there's no way to turn the clock back to '06.
Posted by: Whuh at December 12, 2008 10:15 AM
Whuh..you're an ass. Nobody owes me anything. I owe the bank a mortgage of 40% of my purchase price. No bailout necessary. I also owe the bank a mortgage of about 25% of the current value of my Philly home. And I have two other homes with no mortgage.
Do you know what fraction of mortgages in America are underwater?? A fairly dsmall fraction.
You are right one one point..."Houses will be regarded as millstones; not forever, but before there's a turnaround."
Yup..there will be a turnaround and those of you that are still renting will be again behind the eight ball!!!
Fool.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at December 12, 2008 10:25 AM
While I'm sure there ARE those whose health suffers when property values decrease, I certainly didn't have that problem when the NYC Fiscal crisis broke in 1975, a few months after I bought my house. I've always valued the independence that goes with home ownership and couldn't imagine [or, at least wouldn't want to think about] ever dealing with a landlord again. The increase in my house's value was nice to know about, but only a minor factor in the satisfaction I get from home ownership.
Posted by: Bob Marvin at December 12, 2008 10:30 AM
why does dave have 4 homes where there are so many homeless people in this country? home hog much, dave?! :-/
*rob*
Posted by: PitbullNYC at December 12, 2008 10:31 AM
BRG we posted on topic: we think the conclusion of this study is "garbage" and then we agreed with Rob that moving can make friends become scarce..RELEVANT to homeownership as renters tend to move more often. Please read our posts carefully you will see they are all related to the discussion on hand. Not to say people can't have fun and digress we are only saying you folks are in the excess recently as 11217 rightfully pointed out.
DIBS ton contribution d'hier est la seule chose qui est dommage dude!
Posted by: pierre de taille at December 12, 2008 10:33 AM
In an economic downturn renting does make for more happiness. There is no stress over mortgage payments. Yes, I can lose my apartment for not paying rent but for some reasons it doesn't carry the stress of having your home being foreclosed.
Also, as a renter I can pick up and leave if needed. Now, if I move away for a job as a owner, I have to find renters (and hope they don't get laid off), or try to sell my place. I have lots of friends who were laid off in the past few weeks who are going through this. All I can say is I'm happy I didn't buy.
Posted by: 7andfive at December 12, 2008 10:39 AM
We've all been on topic Pierre. You're 10:04 post is the only one that is not. Last I looked there wasn't a limit on the number of times someone can post. That inclusion of "dude" would be frowned upon by the French language police.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at December 12, 2008 10:39 AM
7andfive...you are correct about the flexibility as a renter and it is especially an issue to have that flexibility during this hard economic time. Bjut, things will change and eventually home prices will start rising again. No, not next year. In the long term home ownership makes for an easier retirement.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at December 12, 2008 10:45 AM
Notsomuch on that easy retirement, DIBS. My father is constantly having to find renters for his place while he travels the world. It's kind of a pain, not to mention at this point his place needs a ton of work, most of which it's not getting.
Posted by: Heather at December 12, 2008 10:49 AM
"They tend to spend less time on active leisure or with friends. The average homeowner reports less joy from love and relationships. She is also less likely to consider herself to enjoy being with people..."
Maybe owners are those who are more likely to value things (mainly their houses, and their houses' value) than relationships or experiences.
Posted by: Sparafucile at December 12, 2008 10:51 AM
me pardonner, Pierre, I forgot about your 9:37 post.
Plus, my 10:08am was said to you in jest :)
Pierre, you can veer off topic all you want. Your posts can be in french. You can call us idiots and say the french are better. It doesn't bother me.
Renters vs Owners - here we go again.
The article should have also studied Renters who are unhappy because they don't own.
Posted by: bayridgegirl at December 12, 2008 10:57 AM
The economics of renting v homeownership are pretty simple.
Renting you pay $x per month, in return for which you get a home and some repair services.
Owning, you pay $y per month for taxes and utilities (that are included in the renters rent). You pay $z in interest (which is just as gone as rent). If you have equity, you have some money that could be earning interest if it were invested elsewhere -- that is another expense (an opportunity cost) that is just like interest. If you are calculating rationally, you should give this a value based on the alternatives you have, and it should be higher than the interest rate on your mortgage (since it is riskier). And you pay (or do) repairs and maintenance, which the renter would have included in rent.
All these are monthly expenses just like rent. Add them all up. So far, if they are lower than rent, you are better off owning. If they are higher than rent, you are better off renting.
Then, there are two additional factors, one financial and one not. One is control-the right to exercise your personal bad taste in renovating. Hard to put a price on that.
The other is future appreciation/depreciation. Owners have the risk (up and down) of future price changes; renters do their investing outside their homes. Most owners are highly leveraged (that is, they have big mortgages), which means that they will make a lot if housing prices go up and lose a lot if they go down. If you buy with a 20% downpayment, and prices drop 20%, you've lost your entire downpayment. If they go up 20$, you've doubled your downpayment. So in rising markets, owners make a lot, and in declining ones, they lose a lot.
Shiller has done research on long term price trends. Over long term, even in elite cities housing prices tend to reflect cost of construction (not land) rather precisely. That is, they go up more or less with inflation.
Right now, we are coming off of the largest housing bubble in US history; NYC prices are roughly double the trend values. It is a safe bet that over the next few years they will return to trend -- that is, drop about half in real terms (probably less in dollars, since inflation will do some of the work). Banks are not entirely dumb; assuming that they are now going to have to keep the risk of jumbo mortgages, they are going to build this expected depreciation into their loan decisions, which will make it even more likely to happen.
Moreover, mortgage rates (at least for conforming loans) are very low. When they rise to more normal levels (which will be higher than in the bubble days of CMOs), house prices will have to drop to compensate.
For both these reasons, buyers should be planning on price depreciation over the next several years, and little (real) appreciation after that (unless mortgage interest rates go below inflation). So even if your monthly costs (including the lost interest on your downpayment and the time you spend in maintenance) are less than rent, you still may be financially better off renting.
The economic way to think about appreciation/depreciation is to decide whether you think buying highly leveraged NYC real estate is a better investment than the alternatives you have. There is nothing magic about "paying off the mortgage and living rent free": it isn't free, and if you rented and invested successfully, you'd be able to live work-free too. The only issue is whether this is the best investment you have. (In rising markets, for small investors, it usually is: it forces you to save, and it is the only convenient way to use leverage, two things that amplify returns on the way up.)
Posted by: FinanceGuy at December 12, 2008 10:58 AM
Being a renter for years and seeing how our parents and a few friends are very satisfied with being home owners we know that owning for us will be a massive improvement in quality of life and LONG TERM investment.
This study lacks statistical Power and its intrinsic Validity is totally misleading hence our opinion.
DIBS thanks again for being on topic and yes our 10:04 comment was geared to specifically encourage this since we feared it would be another back and fort about coffee and lunch... Now we are impressed with your wealth "mais ou est la modeste"?
PS: FYI the language police is dead in France
Posted by: pierre de taille at December 12, 2008 10:59 AM
"also homeowners always like to bake cookies i've noticed."
Excuse me Rob, but some of us Bitter Renters bake cookies, too! ; )
Posted by: cobblehiller at December 12, 2008 11:02 AM
good grief. what a level-headed analysis by finance guy, including the personal bad taste comment. I'm not so sure about doubling your downpayment if prices go up $20 though ;-)
Posted by: dittoburg at December 12, 2008 11:05 AM
Everybody Please Read FinanceGuy's Post!!!
"Then, there are two additional factors, one financial and one not. One is control-the right to exercise your personal bad taste in renovating. Hard to put a price on that."
My favorite line.
Posted by: bayridgegirl at December 12, 2008 11:08 AM
Heather...Many people will feel very sorry that your father endures such hardship because he "travels around the world" all the time :)
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at December 12, 2008 11:13 AM
I used to post quite frequently on an old house website that had commenters from all across North America. It was interesting to see the attitude about renters from the rest of America. Outside of those living in cities, most people saw renters in a negative light, as most rentals available in their towns were on the seedier side of the tracks, and the tenants were regarded as less than trustworthy. So when we had discussions about rent vs buy, we were not talking about the same kind of real estate at all.
Obviously, a city like New York has a very long history of rental apartments ranging from the pits to pleasure palaces, with the incomes to match. Not everyone wants to be a homeowner, and in most of this city, the opportunity to do so is much less than one might imagine.
Different strokes, etc. I, for one, am glad for renters, if it weren't for my tenants, I would be one still. My last landlord made the Village Voice's list of worst landlords one year in the 80's. I am very fortunate to have what I have.
Montrose Morris, PBA
Posted by: Montrose Morris at December 12, 2008 11:16 AM
FinanceGuy is undoubtedly correct, though i think he left out insurance costs, which can be significant. on the other hand, i believe studies also have shown that renters, for the most part, do not actually invest their equivalent to a homeowner's equity. they spend it. or they save it in some very liquid, low-interest vehicle...for a downpayment. second, he's assuming that landlords fulfill their obligations to repair and maintain, when often they do not. this then relates to MM's point, which is that often rental stock is just not of the same quality - in terms of construction, location within the urban geography and social landscape, amenities, etc., as homes available for ownership only. this would lead one to question whether, at least in some regions, rentals can even be considered as substitutes to occupant-owned homes.
of course, this is all based on conditions as they are today. as the rental market becomes more competitive, and if the social factors associated with homeownership become tarnished and/or the stigma associated with renting decreases, rentals may be viewed as uniformly acceptable substitutes.
Posted by: i disagree at December 12, 2008 11:40 AM
DIBS --sorry I got so under your skin; I'm sure you'll pull the tough times just fine. Last laugh is yours, especially if you own RE in Philly.
Posted by: Whuh at December 12, 2008 11:46 AM
As an owner, your housing costs are largely fixed. When housing prices rise, this is a double advantage - your equity rises, and you're protected from increases in the market rent for comparable space. When prices fall, you may lose equity, while rents for similar space also fall.
There's the opportunity cost of having your money invested in your house rather than elsewhere, but mortgage interest deduction, and the exemption of capital gains taxes on proceeds from sale of a primary residence favor home ownership over most other investments.
Posted by: Sparafucile at December 12, 2008 11:54 AM
Whuh...Philly has gone up a phenomenal amount since I bought there in 1998. That said, it is still a very poorly managed city with an extroardinarily high crime rate. The success of Philly is almost solely centered in Center City and University area west of 30th Street. There is a huge population now of people that commute to NYC every day. Part of the reason for the runup in property values is one of scarcity. Until very recently you could count the number of high rise condos on one hand. And the housing stock...Trinities, Federals and a few beownstones is quite beautiful.
When I bought in 1998 I am proud to say that the broker from Prudential (they more or less dominated the market back then with the only other one being Plummer) told me that I was the first person to pay above ask price in Center City as far back as they could remember. I could smell that market moving.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at December 12, 2008 11:56 AM
Well done!
Posted by: Whuh at December 12, 2008 11:58 AM
Finaceguy - awesome post - 100% correct in everyway, although on it is amazing after the bubble has burst and so many people have lost substantial equity that so many still can not comprehend your message.
I disagree - while you are correct regarding the "forced" savings component of home ownership - it isnt really "savings" if your equity declines besides is it really fair to factor in people's lack of fiscal discipline in analyzing true costs of renting v. owning?
Posted by: fsrg at December 12, 2008 12:04 PM
Thanks Finance Guy - great analysis, and the explanation for why I'm renting now. I really did like owning before, for many reasons, including being able to renovate as we liked. It didn't hurt that the value of our property kept rising. I'm also very glad, however, that we sold, since I think it would be much more stressful to sell in this environment. It took me some time to get psychologically used to renting again, but there are definite advantages - mainly freedom to move easily, and having someone else to do repairs. Of course, this is also a time when we are convinced we'll ultimately save money by renting short-term while prices decline - the amount we pay in rent will be more than offset by the price cuts we're starting to see. I also have friends who bought recently who find it stressful to have a huge mortgage and I think some of them have some buyer's remorse, since buying of late got so out of whack that in many cases it was much more expensive than renting. Once things normalize and it is cheaper to own, I will certainly buy again.
Posted by: Miss Muffett at December 12, 2008 12:11 PM
Hohohohohohh fat unhappy owners rofl! Its so true! its so true! XD LAMO ahhahahahahahahahahaah oh owners you poor slobs. RAFL!!! XDXDXDX
Posted by: Billiamsburg at December 12, 2008 12:37 PM
Attention Financeguy & his ditto-heads:
the mortgage interest deduction & capital gains exemptions are huge benefits to homeowners.
Was the omission of these fat ownership incentives intentional? Because they have benefitted me enormously.
Likewise, I may lose some of my principle if I'm forced to sell in the short-term, but most of it was profit from a previous sale. In other words, it would only be a paper loss.
Two other points:
1)the 'missed investment opportunity' argument is old & tired. The high cost of renting in NYC prohibits many [most?] renters from accumulating enough surplus cash with which to do any serious investing.
2)without a crystal ball, it's impossible to predict future mortgage interest rates, but contrary to your assertion, all signs point to a continuation of the low-rate Fed policy in the medium-term.
Even a seemingly rational & smart posting like Financeguy's can be riddled with mistakes!
Posted by: parkedslope at December 12, 2008 12:59 PM
parkedslope, have you actually met anyone who was paying the same rent as they later do as a mortgage payment? My experience has been that people intending to buy don't rent fancy, they rent within their means. When they buy, they want a nice place, so they take out a mortgage which ends up with a payment more than their previous rent, though possibly comparable after the deduction.
Posted by: dittoburg at December 12, 2008 1:16 PM
Ah- i see the homeowners are touchy today. Why should anyone have to justify whether they want to rent or own? I rent. Happily. Proudly. And really don't care if I own a house or not. I have other motivations and goals- so what's the big deal? But half the pro-ownership kerfuffle is all about being better than renters. who cares why you want to be a homeowner? Who cares why I like renting? You make your choices for whatever reason, but this back and forth to prove being a homeowner makes you better than a renter is pure BS.
And in case no one has notices, rentals seem to be the new order. My nephew just got his RE license and the company he works for specializes in rentals. He can barely keep up with demand.
It's just a bit funny how defensive homeowners are over this study. Now you know what some of you make renters feel like :-)
(pitbullnyc- my guess is DIBS worked his tail off for those homes. Envious much?)
Posted by: bxgrl at December 12, 2008 1:19 PM
I own a house in PS with tenants to boot. I have to admit there is some validity to that article with regards to time spent. I defintely spend at least half of my weekend devoted to "my house" while the remaining time goes to spending time with friends or trying to shop or read or work out. I mean how many of us have had a weekened wasted becuase the boiler shut down or finding out where the mystery leak was coming from?
When I rented, I could care less because there was someone else taking care of those worries that currently are mine!
hahah
Posted by: gemini10 at December 12, 2008 1:26 PM
bitter renters, bitter owners.
Are there any bitter squatters around?
Posted by: dittoburg at December 12, 2008 1:27 PM
does it count if they have 4 legs instead of 2, dittoberg?
Posted by: bxgrl at December 12, 2008 1:29 PM
What a crock. (The article, not Finance Guy's post.) There is absolutely no cause and effect here at all.
Proof: I sold my apt and moved into a rental and gained ten pounds!!!
Posted by: mopar at December 12, 2008 1:49 PM
Finance Guy and all;
Late to the party, but let me make one comment.
I think your analysis is spot-on, except for one point: I believe that the use of the Shiller index in a discussion of NYC real estate is not correct.
Most Americans live in the suburbs and ex-urbs, where land is available. In such a case, it makes economic sense that the price of homes would track with construction cost, rather than land.
I believe that in NYC, a different situation prevails. There is a scarcity of land here, both because of the city's inherent density, and regulations which limit the amount of new developable land (zoning, historic preservation areas, housing projects, etc.). I believe that the net result of this situation is that the appreciation of land controls much more in NYC, rather than construction costs (which also, by the way, increase much more in NYC than other places). I believe that this continuing scarcity of land makes the long-term appreciation rate of housing in NYC a great deal higher than that of the US in general, which makes investing in hosuing here a lucrative proposition, generally speaking.
Posted by: benson at December 12, 2008 1:51 PM
On taxes and insurance. Yes, I should have included taxes (pro-ownership) and insurance (pro-renting). I did assume that renters can find comparable properties, which usually has been more or less possible in Brownstone Brooklyn except perhaps at the very highest end (Remsen St mansions). If rental properties are all in worse shape than owner-occupied, then you need to adjust for that (pro-ownership). I also almost certainly underestimated repair costs, especially for homeowners who don't enjoy doing repairs (pro-renting). And 8% is a very low rate of return for investors in a highly concentrated, high risk, high work investment in a bubble that is only partly deflated. Don't you think you should make **more** than the bank? (pro-renting)
On taxes, interest is deductible on a mortgage for up to $1m. For buyers in the prime NY markets, paying the highest tax rates, this could be worth as much as $2000 per month. Assuming that the entire benefit goes to the seller and not the buyer (historically, in NYC, the reverse was the case), that could justify adding an additional 300k to the prices I quoted.
But at current prices, there is no point trying to get all these details accurate.
The reality is that unless I'm way off in my rental estimates, current sales prices in the prime neighborhoods are way, way too high. Exactly how too high depends partly on rents and largely on whether the banks figure out a new way to avoid default risk or whether they decide that they are going to be holding the bag and therefore they need to be sure that the collateral (house) is really going to be saleable in a foreclosure for the appraised value.
If you buy at current prices, you are making a very large bet that banks will be willing to lend -- even after the crisis is over -- based on bubble values that have no relationship to investment or replacement costs or foreclosure prices.
You are also betting against the normal workings of capitalism. If houses are selling at two or three times the cost of creating them, someone is going to figure out a way of making more (e.g.: expanding the acceptable boundaries of the "nice" neighborhoods, converting rentals/warehouses into brownstone equivalents, renovating substandard houses, new construction). Sooner or later, supply will expand to meet demand and the market clearing price will reflect the actual costs of construction. That's why appraisers rely on construction costs as a ceiling and rental values as a floor for fair value in non-bubble markets.
If I were a buyer, I'd wait, unless the right to renovate is very valuable. If I were a seller, I'd sell before the market corrects more.
Posted by: FinanceGuy at December 12, 2008 2:05 PM
How healthy is it to struggle to your pay rent when you are 80 years old? Even worse, I bet that at that age, you'd be hard pressed to round up enough friends to help move you out of your rental when your landlord kicks you out. I can see Finance Guys points, many of which are valid but if you stay put, mortgages eventually come to an end. Regardless of what your property is worth you would then at least have a place to live and possibly a rental income or two.
Posted by: Bailmeout2 at December 12, 2008 2:11 PM
Benson: this is the "zoned world" meme. It hasn't worked in the rest of the zoned land: prices got too high and they are coming down.
Zoning is important, but it isn't all that hard to create more land in NYC. You just build up (as in 4th Ave or all of Manhattan), convert industrial property (DUMBO, Gowanus), evict rent stabilized tenants (everywhere), renovate old stuff (Brownstone Brooklyn), convince people that they can go beyond the old boundaries (I remember when Baltic St & Clinton St was the wilderness -- way beyond anywhere respectable people would go), build infill.
There are probably 10x as many luxury housing units in NYC as 25 years ago. I don't think that the number of people who can afford them has gone up nearly that fast.
Posted by: FinanceGuy at December 12, 2008 2:13 PM
dittoburg - when I was considering renting after my 2006 sale, I looked at Manhattan apts & found I'd be paying $3K/month for a 2 br in a full-service building in Hell's Kitchen. That's the same as my current my mortgage payment in PS - so my monthly maintenance of about $600 is the 'penalty' I pay to-own rather than rent [although the maintenance also 50% deductible].
And yes, I do have to deal with the occasional repair or rennovation, but I totally prefer the custom look & feel of my place - my bad taste is better than most of the taste-free rental boxes that are out there!
So yes, there's definitely some truth to your statement: I spend more in a cheaper neighborhood for an apartment with fewer perks. But my decision was based on the reality of how/where I'm willing to live as a renter vs as an owner.
And my point earlier was just that the interest deduction & capital gains exemptions are a huge factor in whether or not buying makes financial sense.
Posted by: parkedslope at December 12, 2008 2:16 PM
bailmeout- I guess that depends on how much money you have, doesn't it? I know quite a few people in NYC who are that age and rent. And do just fine. On the other hand there are plenty of elderly people getting thrown out of their homes, so try not to sound so much like an ass.
FYI- not only homeowners have friends and family should that happen. Or do you also think the elderly have none?
Posted by: bxgrl at December 12, 2008 2:22 PM
parkedslope last sentence, as its written, I'd definitely agree.
bailmeout2 - living in a paid-for house isn't free, there is no way you can avoid paying taxes without eventually losing your home, and maintenance still has to be done. If you do have rental income, then you'll probably be more than ok. But lets face reality - at 80 you're more likely to just sell the place and end up in some assisted living or nursing home, which at least you can do if you own the place.
Posted by: dittoburg at December 12, 2008 2:23 PM
FinanceGuy @ 2:05pm - you are really full of it today...
Again, you left out the capital gains exemption - maybe not applicable to a flipper, but it's entirely relevant to someone who's owned for more than 10 years/done major renno/etc.
Also, your argument that 'someone will just create new prime neighborhoods' is a total crock: walking access to subways, parks, [good] schools, and other amenities are all limited in a dense city like NYC. And since you're so gentrification crazy, where do you plan on housing all the displaced people? Do you miss the irony that those people you'd like to sweep-away are probably all renters themselves?
Also, those warehouse districts for which you have such grand designs are often polluted [Superfund condos, anyone?], adjacent to highways [to ease shipping, duh!], and in many cases still serving their original purpose as working industrial sites [want to eliminate even more jobs from NYC?].
You talk a nice talk, but it seems to be mostly BS - like most 'finance guys.'
Posted by: parkedslope at December 12, 2008 2:27 PM
My father is 85 and owns a 3 family home, all paid up. I would MUCH prefer that he sell his house, put the money in a CD, and move into a nice rental apartment. Believe me, it is no picnic for an 85 year-old guy to get a call from a tenant at 2 in the morning telling them that the bathroom is flooding. In the past,my father was a handy guy, and he took this as part of his "job" to earn extra income. At 85, however, it is really a drag.
Finance guy: point taken, but I still think my analysis is right. As you point out, the city has done a remarkable job of creating "new land". I think, however, that this process is hitting some headwinds. The tranportation system is not keeping up with growth, and I doubt that folks will want to go further out. Obviously, I'm gazing into the crystal ball on this, so I might be wrong. Comes down to a gut-call, which is always involved when trying to predict future appreciation.
Good discussion.
Posted by: benson at December 12, 2008 2:31 PM
Bxgrl,
What's with the name calling?
Sure there are wealthy 80 year olds who can afford to pay high rents and many of them own second homes elsewhere. However, in this city they are not in the majority. I have an elderly aunt who could no longer afford her rent who now lives with my mother in North Carolina. My aunt never had any children but at least she has family members willing to help her out but there are too many elderly people in this city who have children and other family members who don't give them the support that they need. I work with them everyday! Unfortunately, my aunt was never in a position to have ever purchased a home but if she had, she would have had more options.
Dittoburg,
I was not implying that a mortgage-free home was expense free but a mortgage free home at 80 gives you options that not having that home doesn't. See below.
Benson,
My mother sold her brownstone in 2005 because at 68, it was too much for her to handle. She lives quite comfortably now because of it. She chose to purchase a townhouse-style condo in a planned community and she loves it. Your father is fortunate that he can sell his home if he chooses too. He may not get what he would have gotten a year or two ago but the fact that he owned a home and now has incredible equity is a blessing that many elderly do not have.
Posted by: Bailmeout2 at December 12, 2008 3:08 PM
"Sure there are wealthy 80 year olds who can afford to pay high rents and many of them own second homes elsewhere. However, in this city they are not in the majority"
Well, first of all I have to ask- how do you know? Do you actually have the statistics on that?
secondly- I don't do well with overall pronouncements like "Even worse, I bet that at that age, you'd be hard pressed to round up enough friends to help move you out of your rental when your landlord kicks you out."
My parents never owned a home- my father didn't want it. The majority of his generation and generations before them lived in rentals- NYC was a city of rentals. Nobody made renting a cause for questioning the brains, the lifestyle, or the finances of anyone before. And I'll tell you what- at 85, had my dad needed to move, there would have been a hell of a lot of people there to help. You should have so many when you hit 80.
Posted by: bxgrl at December 12, 2008 3:19 PM
"have you actually met anyone who was paying the same rent as they later do as a mortgage payment?"
Yeah--me, almost identical, to the penny and they stayed that way for 25 years, until my mortgage was paid off, while rents skyrocketed.
Of course conditions were very different in the early '70s and both rents and house prices were far lower. However, incomes were much lower too and, I did have to put 40% down.
In any event, having relatively low housing costs makes my retirement far more comfortable. Were it not for those low costs I probably would still be working and certainly couldn't have retired at age 56. I hope some younger homeowners will be able to say something similar in 2038.
Posted by: Bob Marvin at December 12, 2008 3:25 PM
bxgrl is back -- and she's as nasty as ever!
Posted by: z at December 12, 2008 3:33 PM
parkedslope & benson: I agree that it is nicer to live close in, with good transit, etc. But that is the beauty of the rental/buy comparison. The benefits of the neighborhood are all picked up in the rents, aren't they?
For the "zoned land" meme to justify bubble prices, you need not just a premium for better location, but an ever-growing premium compared to rents and the competition. That isn't going to happen. Brooklyn Heights will always be more expensive than Bay Ridge, but there is a limit to how big the gap can get.
When it gets too big, the market increases supply: DUMBO/Furman St/110 Livingston/Hotel St George/Mason Mints/etc, for all their industrial wasteland aspects, have effectively doubled the size of Brooklyn Heights; Cobble Hill and Carroll Gardens have swallowed half of Gowanus/Red Hook; Park Slope is at least twice as big as it was in 1990; the Flatbush Avenue color bar fell to a combination of diminished racism and price increases; "gentrifiers" live in places they wouldn't have dreamed of a few years ago.
Parkedslope -- I wasn't advocating pushing people out. Just stating the reality: that if the financial incentives are big enough, they'll get pushed out. My parents were. That's been the history of NYC as long as I can remember. Do you think it is going to stop?
As long as owner occupants are willing to pay 2x the rental value, someone is going to see an opportunity to double their money by buying rentals and kicking people out. It doesn't really matter whether I like it. The only thing that will stop it, absent a political movement and legal change that I would welcome but see no sign of, is when rental values and ownership prices converge.
After taxes of course, but capital gains taxes are so low and so easy to avoid that they don't make much difference -- certainly saving 15% taxes 30 years from now isn't a reason to pay double today.
Posted by: FinanceGuy at December 12, 2008 3:51 PM
Bxgrl,
Because you don't take pronouncements well is your issue but not a reason to name call. Although I can see that you don't mind pronouncing.
"I know quite a few people in NYC who are that age and rent. And do just fine. On the other hand there are plenty of elderly people getting thrown out of their homes"
Do you have the statistics for your pronouncement? I lived and worked in Brooklyn all of my life and can see the hell that many elderly are put through when they get evicted. You are delusional if you think that every elderly person in this city is as fortunate as your father. Far too many are not. You even stated as much.
"Nobody made renting a cause for questioning the brains, the lifestyle, or the finances of anyone before."
I know that I didn't. But it is done on Brownstoner almost everyday.
"My parents never owned a home- my father didn't want it. The majority of his generation and generations before them lived in rentals- NYC was a city of rentals."
My mother did own. Good choice financially for her and suited her lifestyle. When government programs making purchasing homes easier became widely available post WWII, many of these renters became owners and whole new neighborhoods were built to accomodate them which is why home ownership increased steadily both in NYC and outside of it. This trend may change.
"at 85, had my dad needed to move, there would have been a hell of a lot of people there to help. You should have so many when you hit 80."
We should both be as lucky as your dad, my aunt and other elderly who have a network of family and friends to help them with their needs.
Posted by: Bailmeout2 at December 12, 2008 3:51 PM
Dang, wish I had more time to comment today. Evenhanded view of rent vs. own, BUT
*as Benson says, real estate in places like SF and NY will just keep on going up, up, up, up!
*if your housing costs aren't fixed at retirement (either through owning or rent control or living in a place where prices never increase) you are screwed.
*rent money is gone forever, you're not "investing" it.
*when you sell in one of these markets like NY or SF you make a ****load of money.
Posted by: mopar at December 12, 2008 3:54 PM
For the people making broad generalizations about retirement -- the point is that if you are thinking of your house as an investment you need to treat it like an investment.
Bob Marvin bought his house in the '70s, I gather. That was a good investment (stocks would have been good too then). If you had done my calculation then, you would have seen that owners were being paid good money to take on the risk of ownership.
But if you buy now in the prime neighborhoods, you are paying double fair value. Tax breaks are nice, but they are far too small to affect the basic math. If you pay double rental value, you are never going to catch up to the renter who invests in almost anything else. The point is that this is an awful investment: the anticipated returns are negative as far as you can see.
If you are incapable of saving and/or investing except by having a mortgage, it might make sense to pay something for the privilege of having someone force you to save a little bit. But most employers will create a tax sheltered forced savings plan for you (they call it a 401(k)) for free. You don't need to give up 20 years of appreciation for that.
Posted by: FinanceGuy at December 12, 2008 4:01 PM
My parents owned and lucky for them because they didn't save much cash. There home was there bank. When the house became too much, they sold it for more money than either of them thought they'd ever see. I don't know if this would be true for someone buying today, but I would rather have fixed housing costs at retirement too. If this can be done by renting, then great.
Posted by: Chaka at December 12, 2008 4:08 PM
Mopar:
1. Interest is exactly as gone as rent. Interest is just the rent you pay for money. The only difference is that when you rent a home instead of renting money, the landlord is legally obliged to pay for repairs, taxes, heat, water/sewer and insurance.
2. Whenever you buy a highly leveraged investment you make a lot of money if prices go up. But as Lehman learned to our regret, if prices go down, you lose a lot, too.
When you sell you make money IF prices have gone up. If you bought in SF at the peak, you've lost all your equity now. And remember that running a house is quite expensive -- it isn't just the purchase cost and interest.
People who bought 20 or 30 years ago didn't overpay. There is no reason to think that if you pay 2x fair value you are going to have the same result as people who paid 3/4 fair value and sold into the biggest housing bubble in history. We can all envy the people who by luck or skill made a fortune in real estate in the last generation, but to think that we will get the same result now is just dumb.
3. Retirement costs are never fixed. If you don't have a lot of money, or live in a country with a civilized retirement system (which would be essentially every advanced democracy but our own), you are screwed. Investing in real estate can be a good way to deal with this problem as an individual, if you have enough money to make the investment in the first place and if you don't overpay. Otherwise, not.
Posted by: FinanceGuy at December 12, 2008 4:16 PM
dittoburg, I have also lowered my housing costs by owning. When I rented in Carroll Gardens, I paid $1900 a month. When I bought an apt in Jackson Heights, I doubled my space and my monthly carrying costs were $1600 -- before the mortgage interest deduction.
I sold and am now living in a rental, also $1600 a month. I am on the verge of buying a townhouse, and my monthly costs will come in around $1600 again. (This includes income from a rental apt.) Also, I will double my space from the rental again, plus have a yard and cellar.
I would be afraid to take on higher costs for a mortgage. What if I lost my job? Also, I need money for shoes.
Posted by: mopar at December 12, 2008 4:39 PM
thanks z- but not gratuitously however- I leave that to you.
bailmeout- your comment was pretty derogatory, intentional or not. As for elderly folks losing their homes- read the papers. It's happening all over the country (Not that the elderly are the only ones), so why you think only elderly renters are suffering, I don't know.
And yes- the owner vs renter debate goes on all the time and I get sick and tired of it- but it wasn't renters who came up with the term "bitter renters." I don't have a problem with either owners or renters- but implying 80 year old people will get evicted by landlords and have no friends by virtue of their "unhealthy" choice is playing right into it. You made it sound like only 80 year old renters would lose their homes and they would have no resources, because after all- they're just renters. That's what bugged me.
Elderly people have a real struggle holding onto their homes for many reasons- especially these days. Don't make it into a renters issue. It's great if your parents owned their home and it worked out for them- I have friends who lost their house and it was hellish for them. So much for the equity and financial stability.
Life happens- you can do what you can to protect yourself but Life Happens. Believe me, I know first hand. And I know first hand what it's like to lose everything because of circumstances you can't control and someone will still come along and smugly tell you, "you should have done this and you'd be ok."
Posted by: bxgrl at December 12, 2008 4:59 PM
I can empathize with that, mopar. My job situation has been unstable the last 7-8 years because I do freelance. And had a lot of old medical bills to pay off. There is no way I feel I could take on a house in any case because of that. It's one thing when you're married and your spouse brings in another income- if they do- but single people, especially working for themselves, can find it much harder.
Posted by: bxgrl at December 12, 2008 5:03 PM
Finance Guy writes that I "bought [my] house in the '70s, I gather. That was a good investment."
Indeed it has turned out to be exactly that. However, I didn't buy my house as an investment. Most people [including ALL our relatives, all my co-workers, and most of our friends] thought that buying an old house in the city was perverse, at best, and deranged, at worst. Cities, in general, and NYC, in particular [especially after the s**t hit the fan with the City's finances, a few months after we closed] were thought to be washed up and on an inexorable decline. We were fairly confident that PLG would remain a viable neighborhood and that there would be enough middle class people interested in old houses to, at least, keep us company. I NEVER thought that brownstone Brooklyn would become more desirable than the suburbs [except,of course, for stubborn crazies like me] or that my house would appreciate so much [great, as far as it goes, but I never plan to cash in on it]. Being able to continue living happily in my antique house, surrounded by a few like-minded people, would have been enough. the rest is icing on the cake. To me homeownership, especially historic home ownership, was [and remains] a life style choice, rather than an investment.
Posted by: Bob Marvin at December 12, 2008 5:12 PM
as a wise poster on Calculated Risk once said (and as echoed by FinanceGuy)- you rent the home or you rent the money.
which is better depends, like any other investment, on whether you are you buying low or high? right now, you are buying high.
another risk the homeowner takes on is the quality of the neighborhood. if you buy in a recently gentrified community, you are making a big bet that it is going to stay that way. now that we are seeing hard economic times, layoffs, etc., and city budget cuts, we will inevitably have increased crime rates. so the renters have the flexibility of moving if their newly gentrified neighborhood goes bust. owners are going to have a much harder time of it.
Posted by: xanadu at December 12, 2008 5:15 PM
Finance Guy --I can't believe I logged onto Brownstoner and learned something. I can't compete with your expertise, and why should I; I'd only add that someone with substantial means who truly wants to own might think of the opportunity costs of buying slightly differently. Namely, it's possible that any paper (or even hard) asset in a deflationary bust is going to zero, or near zero, and so purchasing an asset with as high a consumption value as a house might make sense. In that instance, one would want to buy at the epicenter of urban affluence.
Additionally, I find it highly amusing that when it suits the housing bulls, they talk up fringe neighborhoods, no matter how dodgy, no matter how remote. But when the argument swings the other way, suddenly someone comes out with the truth: viz. the " walking access to subways, parks, [good] schools, and other amenities are all limited in a dense city like NYC" post at 2:27.
The time to buy is when interest rates are HIGH --then you can re-fi as they slide down. People cheering on the government edict of low rates have no clue what will happen to their equity when rates climb higher. Poof might be the best word.
Posted by: Whuh at December 12, 2008 5:33 PM
xanadu- But the upside of that, don't homeowners form a core of (hopefully) stability in hard times exactly because of that? I don't think gentrified neighborhoods go back, really, to what they were before. And in working class neighborhoods with a lot of longtime homeowners, those homeowners who have been there through good times and bad- they won't leave so quick either.
True, renters don't have as much to lose financially, but those who do flee neighborhoods still do lose a community, neighbors, a place they've called home. I wouldn't be able to just up and leave so easily. I'm involved with community things here- I may not be invested financially, but I am in other ways.
Posted by: bxgrl at December 12, 2008 5:42 PM
Financeguy @ 3:51pm - first off, sorry to have gone all ad-hominem on you before...
but I still hold that your argument has some gaping holes - namely, that ownership costs are 2x rents in prime neighborhoods. As I wrote earlier, they're not for me - and I made my purchase in late 2006. Factoring-in taxes, etc., I'm still close to 1:1.
And while you try to dismiss capital gains taxes, I was very p.o.'d when I had to sell some stock that I'd held for 10+ years. Likewise, I was quite pleased to have my home sale profits arrive tax-free!
As for the growing boundaries of PS, BH, DUMBO, etc - please, that is a recurrent joke on this site. Only fools think that 23rd Street at 3rd Avenue is 'prime Park Slope.'
And with the bubble now bursting, those fringe locations will surely seem all the more fringe-y.
Posted by: parkedslope at December 12, 2008 6:16 PM
Bxgrl,
You read way more into my original post than you should have. No one seemed to be offended but you. But as 'Z' said, you are back and as nasty as ever.
Posted by: Bailmeout2 at December 12, 2008 7:15 PM
I tried explaining my reaction, and actually thought there was a dialogue going on here. Since I was actually trying to talk about it I have no idea what set YOU off in this last post. If you remember, I said 'try not to sound like an ass," and I thought your "comment was derogatory." No where did I make it about you personally.
I may have put it strongly but I was dealing with what you said, or more to the point,how you said it- that is not a character assassination but if you want to take it that way, that's your problem.
FYI-I wouldn't trust Z to analyze a block of wood, let alone my or anyone else's character. But you'll find that out for yourself. But by all means jump on that bandwagon.
Posted by: bxgrl at December 13, 2008 12:11 AM
"Interest is exactly as gone as rent. Interest is just the rent you pay for money."
No, because when you sell the house, you get the money back.
Renters might put 10 percent of their income into savings but they can't afford to put 30 to 50 percent of their income into savings, which is what they're spending on rent.
Of course it's foolish to buy if you have to sell at a loss. I would recommend not buying if you think you could not carry the house and/or rent it out in a time of crisis, such as divorce, illness, or having to move for a job.
I don't know what you mean about buying houses that cost 2x rent. Do you mean the monthly carrying costs? I agree I wouldn't buy such a house. The places I have bought have been cheaper than renting.
Posted by: mopar at December 13, 2008 12:13 AM
Bob Marvin, by not thinking like an investor, did exactly what good investors do: he bought at the bottom. When everyone thinks the market can do nothing but go down, all news is likely to be good.
Today, though, the prices assume that all future news is going to be good -- the sellers expect to be paid for improvements in the neighborhoods that haven't even happened yet. That means that all future news is almost automatically going to be bad: it would be basically impossible for the world to turn out as good as current prices assume. So people who want to imitate Bob Marvin should probably be looking in Lodi NJ or Sebb's Staten Island, or some other place that nobody thinks can make it. Not in Park Slope.
Mopar --
1. By rental value, I mean the price that a rational investor would pay for the house to hold it as a rental property, assuming that returns will come from rents, not from flipping the property.
2. Interest is gone. It belongs to the bank. You don't get it back. What you get, if you get anything, is the equity you put into the house (downpayment plus the part of the mortgage payment that isn't interest) plus or minus any change in the value of the house. Whether that will be profitable or not depends on how much you pay and what happens to prices.
If you pay 2x the rental value, it is hard to see how prices can keep going up unless rents suddenly start exploding. And rents can't go up faster than incomes except in very short term, because people have to be able to pay them. So it seems unlikely that rents are quickly going to go up enough to justify current prices.
3. For most of the last 75 years, NYC buyers could project making 8-10% returns on their equity investment from rents alone assuming that rents would rise no faster than expenses and there would be no price appreciation. (Owner occupants made a bit more, if they did the calculation as if they were paying themselves rent at the market rate, because of the tax subsidies). Without knowing where Bob Marvin lives or when he bought, I'm willing to bet that if he can reconstruct what market rents were when he bought, he'll confirm this. It was true everywhere in NYC from at least the 1940s until 10 years ago, with only the slightest exception at the top of the late 1980s boom.
Today, if you are finding those kinds of prices, you are looking in different neighborhoods than I am or you are looking harder. The prices I'm seeing are double that. But I have no special information about prices. Maybe there are deals out there that don't show up in HOTD or maybe I'm underestimating rents. Or maybe the correction is further along where you are looking.
4. Scholars using national figures generally show lower expected returns (purchase prices are higher relative to rental values) than I am think have been true in NYC. Usually they find historic values that are around 15x annual rents, which means profit rates of under 6% rather than 8-10%. That rate seems implausibly low to me -- it doesn't make sense that equity owners should be willing to invest for less than the bank takes. So I think something is wrong in their numbers -- most likely that in most of the country, rental property is significantly lower in quality than purchase property and it is hard for investigators to correct for this. So they are not really comparing comparables -- they are comparing nicer owner-occupied stuff to not-so-nice rentals.
In NYC, in contrast, the rental market is large, liquid, and in all price ranges, and I think that it is possible to have a pretty good idea of what the real rental values are even for nice apartments (with the possible exception of the Jennifer Connolly mansion). There are plenty of garden floor-throughs that are in the same condition as the upstairs unit, and it isn't hard to simply multiply the floor-through rent by 2 or 3 to get an estimate of the rental value of the duplex or triplex.
Since it is relatively easy (in Brownstone Brooklyn) to convert owner-occupied to rental, to change configurations, and even not impossible to change rentals to owner-occupied, normal market forces should keep all these prices pretty similar. If a building is more profitable in one form than the other, someone is likely to change it to the more profitable form -- which has the effect of driving the prices back together.
Right now we have a major imbalance, as I read the market: owner occupants are paying way more than renters. So there is lots of profit to be made converting rentals into sales. Eventually, this will mean either that rents go up or sales prices go down -- and my guess is that it's going to be sales prices coming down.
Posted by: FinanceGuy at December 13, 2008 9:29 AM
Why use rents rather than sales comps?
Sales prices can easily get out of whack if buyers are willing to overpay now because they think, like Sebb, that there is some guarantee that they can sell for more later, or, for that matter, if sellers are willing to sell for discount prices because they think, like Bob Marvin's friends in the white flight generation, that there will be no one to buy from them later. Bubbles and panics happen when the prices people are willing to pay now are based on their views about the prices someone else will be willing to pay later, which are based on the same thing. In that sort of market, any price is possible, at least for a while.
Since renters are paying current prices for current services, not speculating on the future, rents are much more tied to real factors like actual quality of life right now, current incomes, transportation, fashions, lifestyles, crime rates, and so on.
So if you want to separate out the bubble irrationality from the real improvements in NYC, look at (non-stabilized) rents. They've gone up quite a bit as neighborhoods have improved, but nothing like prices in the last decade.
Posted by: FinanceGuy at December 13, 2008 9:29 AM
Thanks FinanceGuy--that's very flattering. However, buying in areas without interesting old houses [i.e Lodi NJ or Sebb's Staten Island--assuming that's not part of SI, like the Mud Lane section of Stapleton, which is beautiful, but not that inexpensive] would be thinking like an investor instead of a [possibly irrational] lover of old houses. I did have confidence that NYC, Bklyn, and PLG/LM would remain stable and become more desirable, but that confidence defied conventional wisdom and might well have been wrong. I'm sure that there were a few people inspired, like me, by the "back to the city movement" who bought lovely old houses in Detroit. What happened to them? I only had wisdom in retrospect.
I'm afraid that I can't confirm anything about return on my own equity investment from rent. There's been no rental income because of our Lefferts Manor single-family restriction--something I welcomed since I didn't want to be a landlord. Had I wanted to take on that burden I could have afforded a two or three family brownstone in lower Park Slope [a now outmoded term for parts of PS west of 7th Avenue]. My investment would have been even better, in terms of appreciation, but I don't think I'd have been as happy.
Posted by: Bob Marvin at December 13, 2008 10:24 AM
Thanks, FinanceGuy, this makes a lot of sense. I am looking in areas of Brooklyn where there is a lot of foreclosure and the correction is farther along. Right now the monthly carrying costs are about equal to the monthly rent.
It is my impression that costs in places such as Carroll Gardens and Fort Greene are also equal to the monthly rent, because the rent is so darn high. The big difference there is the owners have to be pulling in a higher income than I am (two professionals) to get the mortgage in the first place.
Now, in these other areas such as Park Slope and Brooklyn Heights and what not, where the townhouses go for 2 or 3 million -- it's a fancy part of town, what can I say? It's a wealthy community, like Westport, Conn. They're paying for the schools. It just happens to be in New York City.
Posted by: mopar at December 13, 2008 11:09 AM
"Since renters are paying current prices for current services, not speculating on the future, rents are much more tied to real factors like actual quality of life right now, current incomes, transportation, fashions, lifestyles, crime rates, and so on."
Really interesting post, financeguy. I'm not sure I totally agree with you that renters only pay based on current services though. If you're renting from a homeowner who paid too much, you'll be paying too much too, and I've also seen rents go up as a neighborhood- all other things staying the same- becomes trendy- the landlord sees dollar signs, the renter sees "cool neighborhood!". We renters will also pay more for a place we fall in love with (lord knows I have on occasion) and because as consumers, we'll fall for good marketing ploys as well.
But I may not be reading you right- are you actually referring to what renters are willing to pay for, not necessarily the rents being asked? Eg- what renters are willing to pay in a neighborhood like CH, as opposed to the actual level of rents being asked for in that neighborhood.
Posted by: bxgrl at December 13, 2008 11:11 AM
Oh, and yes, you do pay interest, of course. But you do what you can to avert the risk of having to sell at a loss. You buy and hold. So if it works out, you get your money back. Whereas if you rent, you're giving that same chunk of money to the landlord and helping her to pay off her interest.
And it's true of course that other investments average an 8 to 10 percent return, but it never seems to work out this way. I've got various 401Ks, SEPs, index funds, what-not, and they just always seem to be the same size. The only people I know who made any money in the stock market were my grandparents buying blue-chips before the 60s. Whereas I know many people who became millionaires accidentally merely by virtue of happening to live in the Bay Area and needing to live with a roof over their heads. Those properties are still worth millions. They've barely gone down.
Posted by: mopar at December 13, 2008 11:16 AM
P.S. I'm not arguing that all real estate markets are like the Bay Area. I realize it's unique.
Posted by: mopar at December 13, 2008 11:19 AM
Folks;
This is a really interesting discussion. I'd just like to add one more thing.
I'm in my early 50's, and in my experience, one of the most damaging periods in US history was the high inflation of the 70's, in that it led to distortions in the US economy that we are still grappling with.
As Finance Guy has pointed out, the purchase of a house is usually highly-leveraged, and the appreciation tends to go along the lines of replacement construction cost. As such, anyone who purchased a home in the 70's or before looked like a genius. As an asset, home prices appreciated dramatically due to the high inflation of the 70's. Moreover, your winnings were further turbocharged by the fact that you were now paying your mortgage with devalued money, once again thanks to inflation.
These dramatic gains led to a mentality that we are still dealing with: that home ownership is a sure-fire way to riches. When I first started out, I had the unfortunate experience of working in central Jersey. I reverse-commuted from Brooklyn. My colleagues at that time thought I was crazy for two reasons: a) I lived in Brooklyn and b) I rented my apartment. The culture there was that "you need to get in" on the housing market, no matter what the price. That mentality stayed with us to very recently. Perhaps one good that will come from this bubble collapse is that folks will look at the rent-versus-buy with a clearer mind, per Finance Guy's advice.
I work for a Japanese company, and travel there often. Interestingly, they view home ownership much more along the lines that Finance Guy discusses. To a Japanese consumer, the only thing of lasting value is the land. They view the housing structure as just a depreciating asset, much as we would view a car. I think it is no mistake, therefore, that Japan has retained much more of its industrial infrastructure than us, as that is where they apply their capital.
If I were "king" of the US, one of the first things I would do is to phase out the mortgage interest deduction. This is nothing more than subsidy to overbloated housing consumption.
Posted by: benson at December 13, 2008 1:59 PM
bxgrl: my comment about you was unduly snarky, and for that, i apologize. the point i could have made more diplomatically is that i have observed you not infrequently use insults and personal attacks to respond to comments you disagree with. your response to bailmeout2 was an example of that. i don't like that sort of thing, but in pointing that out the way i did, i came across as insulting too, so that didn't really accomplish much except put you on the defensive. i actually find you an engaging commenter for the most part, which makes your flashes of anger puzzling and disappointing.
Posted by: z at December 13, 2008 9:03 PM
Fair enough, z. I do get angry- and I am pretty strong about it oftimes. But look around- I haven't been on the site in quite awhile but it seems the insults and attacks still fly on brownstoner. For the most part I get blindsided. I'll post something on a thread and some one will respond in an insulting manner. I can tell you pretty specifically when it's happened. I've been told I have squirrels in my brain for posting that I thought a working waterfront would be good for NYC, insulted for defending my neighborhood, put down for offering opinions on Admirals Row, told I know nothing for venturing an opinion on asbestos removal. For awhile I had a personal troll who went after me no matter if I simply said the sky is blue (actually so did Montrose Morris), although i think he's gone. Its the one thing about brownstoner I never liked either.
I give as good as I get- but I won't just go after someone for simply discussing issues. I tried explaining what bothered me so much about bailmeout's comment- and that what I said had to do with his comment, not his character. i don't know him- so his comment is all I have to speak to. Yet on this thread alone pierre snarks at DIBS, DIBS calls Whuh a fool, pitbull calls DIBS a home hog. Why take just me to task, I guess I'm asking.
But I will also take myself to task. Just because it goes on all over brownstoner, I don't have to contribute to it. And thanks for taking the time to post to me. It's appreciated and I take it to heart.
Posted by: bxgrl at December 14, 2008 2:38 AM
bxgirl: Of course rents go up when neighborhoods get trendy. Fashion is a real -- current -- improvement in quality of life for many people.
The difference between rents and sales, though, is that it is rare that renters are willing to pay more today because they think that rents are going to go up next year. Buyers, in contrast, often do that (or the reverse).
In the last several years NY prices went up because crime went down and BK became fashionable and people realized that cities are good places to live -- that's all reflected in the rents.
But PURCHASE prices also went up because people wanted to get in now before prices went up more. That's a bubble: people paying more than they think the place is worth (to rent or live in) because they think they'll be able to sell it to someone else for even more (or they'll have to overpay even more if they wait). It leads to completely irrational prices. Eventually, though, somewhere around $3m for a Carroll Gardens special, even the irrationality ends, usually because the banks decide to stop financing.
(Bubbles can work in the other direction, as in the white flight years, when people sold at silly prices because they feared they'd get even sillier -- eventually driving prices so low that in the late 60's the City was paying people to take Upper West Side brownstones off their hands.)
We are at the end of the biggest bubble in US history. If you want to get an idea of where prices are likely to go, you need to look at something that is unaffected by the bubble. Rents are much less likely to be based on speculation about where rents are going, and much more likely to be based on how much people are making and how much they actually want to live in the neighborhood/apt right now.
Posted by: FinanceGuy at December 14, 2008 11:13 PM
FinanceGuy is Shiller, clearly.
Posted by: Whuh at December 15, 2008 10:10 AM
FinanceGuy, curious on your opinion about rental income as a consideration. I basically cover my mortgage payment with rent from two market-rate units, and live in the third. Other expenses (heat, taxes, insurance) come to roughly the equivalent of what a floor-through would cost to rent in my neighborhood. So am I in a good situation, by your calculations? And does market-rate rent come down in down markets?
Posted by: Frederick Law Homestead at December 15, 2008 3:42 PM

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