Green Church Can't Go Co-op... Yet

I was one of the preservationists and architecture-lovers of all stripes worked diligently to prevent the demolition"

Lisa, it was YEARS, not months, that we worked on trying to save this...about 2 years more or less (I came into the fight a little later than others).

Italian71...we probably know each other.

What is never shown or discussed in these stories, is:
This lot is bigger than what is shown in this picture. It extends probably another 50' to the left and there's a school building on that portion, which was also slated for demolition. Also, on this site(around the corner, on the right) was a limestone that ended a row, that was demolished along with the church.

Yes, this was one disgusting battle, riddled with accusations of deceit, power, underhanded manipulation of the system, etc.

I have not one nice word for the developer, not one nice word for the pastor. The community of Bay Ridge will suffer because of greed.

I'm so riled up right now.

Posted by: bayridgegirl at December 4, 2008 10:25 AM

Truthfully, I didn't read the article. And I'm not sure I can. I knew this was happening a couple of days ago. Someone had emailed me about it. Biff, I spent hundreds of hours on this fight. It's hit close to home. Every time, I hear something about this, or somebody emails me with an update. I get very upset.

I was just pointing out to, Lisa, that her opening sentence is incorrect. I wasn't invloved all three years...two, and, I was privy to alot of information during that course. And I can share information that would raise some hairs, but I won't.

"the pastor and parishioners now have nowhere left to congregate."

The pastor doesn't care...The pastor has congregated at the bank with the money. His pockets were indeed lined. Yes, I'm speaking ill of a pastor.

BTW - they are worshiping somewhere. They're renting space, I forget where. After the demolition, I distanced myself from it all. I was truly drained and disgusted by the outcome.

Adapative re-use should have been the course for this site. It should have been the offer that they accepted 2 years ago, when it was made to them.

I don't feel bad for the parishioners or the pastor.
I feel bad for the community, that could have had a performance center in that church.
I feel bad for the senior citizens that could have been housed in the building that would have gone up where the school building is.
I feel bad for the neighborhood because it lost an architctural gem.
I'll feel bad for the community when a building does go up on that site and our community and infastructure is over burdened by the added housing, but not added services.

Posted by: bayridgegirl at December 4, 2008 11:08 AM

Okay, I read the article...nothing new, that I already didn't know.

Wow, Biff, we're agreeing. That is good, I'm being good!

Landmarking was sought for this church early on, but the process of landmarking is very daunting. There was a great article in the Times (Arts Section) on Monday, as cited by the Eagle, about churches and landmarking. I don't know why Brownstoner didn't do a thread about it. I even mentioned it on Monday in the Links.

I can dis Bay Ridge and its residents right now in regards to not appreciating architecture, and not taking a stand and letting this neighborhood fall to the haphazard destruction of it's architectural history...but I won't.

Posted by: bayridgegirl at December 4, 2008 12:45 PM

Here is a response to Benson's (5:59pam) post from the Green church Thread:
"Captioned" is what he said.

“Oh please, I just can't take this any more.”
- You can’t take it? Can’t handle it?

“BRG: you are unbelievable.”
- That’s what some will say. Many will say I’m believable.

“Most days you're thowing out silly, near-juvenile posts left and right.”
- I have to disagree with you on this. Most days, I’m throwing out witty, amusing and cleverly crafted posts. You miss to see my writing talent. Maybe, you’ve seen it elsewhere and appreciate it there.

“Today I suppose you think we should now all bow our heads in sorrow while you show us your despair at your pet project. “
- No, I don’t suppose that of anybody. If YOU want to bow your head to me that’s up to you. I am worthy of it, though.
I have taken up several other pet projects. Would you like to discuss them?

“I find it incredible that you would accuse a pastor of fraud without offering the slighest shred of evidence. “
In my three posts, not once did I use the word ‘fraud’”
- I am incredible!

You want a shred of evidence. I’ll photo copy the boxes and boxes full of information amassed over the years during this battle. You pay for copying and shipping. Hire a detective, maybe you’ll find evidence of ‘fraud’.

“Anyone who would accuse someone of fraud without the slightest evidence, simply because they didn't agree with their view on an issue, is simply a malicious person, and I question those on this thread who didn't call her on it.”
- I am hardly malicious…maybe fallacious, but always Delicious (NOW, that was a witty remark).
You’ve called me out. I guess, no one will question you, now!

“Finally, I wonder how many of the folks who wrote a post in this thread had actually seen how this church was situated.”
- Yes, I wonder. Many should have seen this church before the wrecking ball. But, I’m sure many just by looking at photos appreciated the architecturally integrity. I believe it was the only structure in NYC to use Green Ashlar stone in a ‘Serpentine’ effect, dubbing it a ‘Green Serpentine Façade’

This church was situated like many others in NYC. Actually it probably was situated better than others. It was on a huge corner lot. 4th ave about 200’ frontage, Ovington about 175’. There were three (3) buildings on the site. The demolished church (on the corner), to the south on 4th Ave. is the 2 story school building (still standing), and on Ovington Ave. there was a three story townhouse, used as the parsonage (now destroyed).

“A word commonly used in Brownstoner is "context". In that regard, this church was completely out of context. “

Says who? YOU?
So, I guess a lot of churches in NYC are out of context. Some stand on full blocks, some on corners and some between tall buildings. Let’s tear them all down.
What, Benson, for a church to be contextual with its surroundings, it needs to be freestanding with tracts of rolling hills surrounding it.
This is NYC, appreciate its diversity.
Or maybe, churches are no longer contextual in NYC….let’s tear them all down.

“The blocks of 4th Ave north of this church is filled with complete 1920's commercial schlock buildings, complete with tacky shops.”
- And now on this site will rise a 21st Century Schlock!

“To the south 4th Ave is filled with 4 and 6 story apartment buildings that form a nice line-of-sight - except for the church. “

Let’s see, if you stand in front of the church, okay empty lot now, with a big ‘for sale’ sign and look north:
What is that I see diagonally across from it??…ANOTHER CHURCH!!!!
Head north, all are 3 story bricks with storefronts, except one 4 story building, south of the other church.

Let’s head south shall we:
You’re right about the 4-6 story apt. buildings. 4th Avenue is lined with them…but wait, Is that a steeple and another!
Standing on that corner, looking south at all those buildings my line-of-sight is interrupted by a church on 73rd Street (OLA), and then Bay Ridge Prep School on 74th and 75th Street ANOTHER CHRUCH.76th street, a Victorian on the corner (now a daycare)…and next to that, you want to start talking about the two Victorians that were just torn down.
Holy, Toledo, all these different structures are starting to look like apartment buildings to me!

By the way, I’ve heard the word ‘schlock’ once before, years ago.
Truthfully, I had to look it up.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/schlock
I now understand you, you are so well versed in this term….low quality or value.

Why not take a walk on 4th Avenue and really look at the buildings. There are many with great details. Columned entrances, interesting brick patterns, decorative freizes, etc. There’s a couple of buildings in the Art Deco style. So, rub the ‘schlock’ from eyes and look around you.

“This church was completely out of context in this environment.”
- Yes, you are the authority on contextual design as evident from you previous accolades extolled on Feder homes.

“It looked like exactly what it was: a decrepit structure from the days when Bay Ridge was a rural community. It looked so completely out-of-place on 4th Ave in that area.”
-Again, spoken by an architectural critic like yourself, with a fine eye toward the highest standards of design.
Decrepit – Do you have any evidence of that?
It was so decrepit, that it was on the National Register of Historic Places. I guess they don’t have any guidelines when placing structures on the list!

“At least I'm not the one who accuses people of fraud simply because someone doesn't agree with me, in -between my silly posts on total nonsense.”
-Benson, you and I don’t agree. You are a ‘fraud’!

“Moreover, I make comments on sites I have actually seen.”
-I now think you were the one guiding the wrecking ball.

Posted by: bayridgegirl at December 5, 2008 1:19 PM