« Today on the Forum Closing Bell: Brooklyn Winters, Now in Arkansas »

December 8, 2008

Fulton BID Gaining Momentum

With an end finally in sight for the infrastructure and repaving work that has plagued the already-down-on-its-luck stretch of Fulton Street in Clinton Hill, momentum is building for a new Business Improvement District to help improve the quality of life and retailing environment. There's a meeting tonight at the Fort Greene Senior Citizens Council, 966 Fulton Street (between St. James Place and Grand Avenue) at 6:30 p.m. tonight hosted by Council Member Letitia James. Update: Thanks to cobblehller for providing this link to information on the proposed BID. Importantly, the site states that the BID is to cover the entire stretch of Fulton from Flatbush to Classon as well as some side streets.

Trackback Pings

TrackBack URL for this entry:
http://www.brownstoner.com/mte/mt-tb.cgi/7523

Comments

THis BID should go right up next to the BID they want to put in place for Fulton/Nostrand.

Posted by: 11233 at December 8, 2008 3:34 PM

Of all the things that are of concern to me in my little neck of the woods this is the thing I am most keen to see happen. a thriving retail environment on Fulton would be the most welcome and significant change possible for this stretch of Clinton Hill. and I am talking about retail with utility for everyone, not fru fru shops. Just good old fashioned useful retail. Go BID!

Though interestingly some of my buddies in the deli I frequent on Fulton and Grand are against the BID. Don't know why but its interesting to note.

Posted by: wasder at December 8, 2008 3:34 PM

"Fulton BID Gaining Momentum"

Oh no it's not!!!!!!!!! The longtime business on Fulton St don't want any parts of a BID..

Brownstoner if you take your ass outside you will see anti-BId in store windows..

This one is going down..

The What (Lodi's finest)

Someday this war is gonna end...

Posted by: Return of The What at December 8, 2008 3:36 PM

What, I have noticed that some of the delis and other businesses that are already on Fulton Street have the "no to BID" signs in the window. What are their concerns? My assumption is that they are bummed about the concept of having to pay dues to the BID, but presumably these concerns would be overridden by the positive changes brought by the BID?

As I said, I really like the guys at my little deli and so maybe I will talk to them about why they are against it so that I can get an "on the ground" opinion. On the face of it I would think that the BID is a win/win, but I could be wrong I guess. Certainly something needs to be done with this stretch of Fulton. There are some flourishing businesses but with the subway and bus traffic on Fulton there should be more.

Posted by: wasder at December 8, 2008 3:43 PM

they could start with some trees. i was hoping that was part of the plan as they had all the sidewalks ripped up. what better opportunity. what a let-down. same cruddy bare pavement streets.

As for a BID I wish someone would talk about the plusses and minusses. why would anyone be opposed? would this mean forcing out old businesses? or just incenting new ones to open in the many empty storefronts?

Posted by: DowningStreet at December 8, 2008 3:43 PM

Downing--this is exactly what I am getting at as well. Would love to know more about reasons for already existing businesses to oppose the BID. And yes, some trees would be nice.

Posted by: wasder at December 8, 2008 3:45 PM

brownstoner--I hope you cover this meeting tonight. would love more concrete info about what the proposal is...

Posted by: wasder at December 8, 2008 3:48 PM

The only businesses that don't want the bid are the ones who have nothing to gain from an improved retail environment, e.g., the cheezy bodegas that do a nice business selling drugs to the crackheads that "live" in the hotels near Fulton and Classon. Cleaning up the area means those kinds of businesses have to change the way they opperate, including some investment in inventory other than faded bottles of detergent.

Posted by: 11233 at December 8, 2008 3:51 PM

I would guess that current owners of bodgeas are anti BID for two reasons. First off, as mentioned, they don't want to have to pay memebership fees. Second, assuming they rent their space and do not own, they are probably afraid that I BID will mean that higher end stores come in, which will mean their rent goes up.

Posted by: Make My Heights the P Heights at December 8, 2008 3:51 PM

"What are their concerns?"

Or maybe some of these places are "fronts" and dealing in illegal behavior...

Posted by: 11217 at December 8, 2008 3:55 PM

The deli that I frequent is a vibrant wonderful community hub at Grand and Fulton. It is a very useful business with a loyal clientele from the neighborhood. They are not selling drugs or in any way conducting illegal business, but they are also against the BID. IT is these kinds of people I am curious about. Will ask them and let you guys know.

Posted by: wasder at December 8, 2008 3:55 PM

"What are their concerns?"

It's the sees for just sweeping up the street Wasder. I don't know if BID add value..

"The only businesses that don't want the bid are the ones who have nothing to gain from an improved retail environment, e.g., the cheezy bodegas that do a nice business selling drugs to the crackheads that "live" in the hotels near Fulton and Classon. Cleaning up the area means those kinds of businesses have to change the way they opperate, including some investment in inventory other than faded bottles of detergent."

NICE 11233!!! I'm willing to bet you don't "interact" with the people you described. The point is if you retards want this type of neighborhood then move to one. Stop being a poser, moving in the ghetto and complaining about the quality of life!

"I would guess that current owners of bodgeas are anti BID for two reasons. First off, as mentioned, they don't want to have to pay memebership fees. Second, assuming they rent their space and do not own, they are probably afraid that I BID will mean that higher end stores come in, which will mean their rent goes up."

Ding ding ding!!!!!!

The What (11233 you live in the Ghetto, LMMFAO, You can't afford Asshat Hill)

Someday this war is gonna end...

Posted by: Return of The What at December 8, 2008 4:00 PM

"What are their concerns?"

Or maybe some of these places are "fronts" and dealing in illegal behavior...

11217 that shows your are clueless. Please stay in Park Slope...

The What

Someday this war is gonna end...

Posted by: Return of The What at December 8, 2008 4:04 PM

What, I rarely agree with you on anything related to gentrification issues but I must say that in this particular case if people are expecting this stretch of Fulton to turn into Smith Street they will be sorely disappointed. Myself, I just want practical healthy retail on what should be a bustling commercial strip.

Posted by: wasder at December 8, 2008 4:06 PM

You don't live there What so shut the fuck up. Most people want a neighborhood to actually get better. Those bodegas are actually ripping people off compared to "more expensive neighborhoods" where there are better services. Christ you could probably turn them in just for overcharging on milk!!!

Yes, they all have rents that are way below market. Hopefully a lot of those leases will turn over soon.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at December 8, 2008 4:09 PM

"What, I rarely agree with you on anything related to gentrification issues but I must say that in this particular case if people are expecting this stretch of Fulton to turn into Smith Street they will be sorely disappointed. Myself, I just want practical healthy retail on what should be a bustling commercial strip."

Now we have something to agree on Wasder. Maybe one day I will meet you face to face and show you the History of Fulton Street. I can tell you information on EVERY building from Downtown to Broadway Junction. The area from Grand to Franklin will always be a dump, it's like a "lost world" over there...

"You don't live there What so shut the ferk up. Most people want a neighborhood to actually get better. Those bodegas are actually ripping people off compared to "more expensive neighborhoods" where there are better services. Christ you could probably turn them in just for overcharging on milk!!!"

You know Dave, African Americans always pay higher prices. We pay taxes and don't receive the services. Our food is old and out dated. Police and Fire are slow to respond. And we have to put being Second Class Citizens. Welcome to the Ghetto....

The What

Someday I will meet Dave face to face...

Posted by: Return of The What at December 8, 2008 4:19 PM

Dave is correct.

These bodegas are a rip off and they pay about 2 cents in rent.

Go check out a gallon of milk at your local grocery store and then at the corner bodega. It's about a DOLLAR more at the bodega.

And I bet ya they are paying half the rent of most of the surrounding establishments...

Posted by: 11217 at December 8, 2008 4:19 PM

The major lending institutions have ripped off America to the tune of trillions of dollars! Get mad about that you bunch of misguided Asshats!

The What

Someday this war is gonna end...

Posted by: Return of The What at December 8, 2008 4:21 PM

"You know Dave, African Americans always pay higher prices. We pay taxes and don't receive the services. Our food is old and out dated. Police and Fire are slow to respond. And we have to put being Second Class Citizens. Welcome to the Ghetto...."

And its that kind of stupidity and lack of initiative on your part that keeps you there. BID...NO! We don't want any improvement.

Plain stupid you are.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at December 8, 2008 4:27 PM

They don't see it What. These guys have money or they have family to back them up. They don't care, it's an inconvenience to them, it's not a 'problem'.

Posted by: cobblehiller at December 8, 2008 4:27 PM

This is based on your own exhaustive investigative survey, I presume.

OK, back to reality. Wasder, you had the right idea a few posts ago: since you're friendly with the guys at your deli, just ASK them why they're against the BID and see what they have to say.

Posted by: East New York at December 8, 2008 4:28 PM

Here's a good story on the BID:

http://www.brooklynpaper.com/stories/31/48/31_48_mm_fulton_bid.html

As most stores have less than 20 feet of frontage, $80/month doesn't seem unreasonable to me. Fulton needs all the help it can get!

Posted by: tinarina at December 8, 2008 4:32 PM

ROTW: You are the poser. Pretending to know what is going on in the area when you left years ago. You ran away to NJ when times got tough. Now you see that things are changing and you really can't deal with it. It scares you. SO you hide behind the MAB and America getting "ripped off". You have nothing to add to the conversation so get back on your meds, get back in your cave and STFU.

As for meeting face-to-face, you have had chances and you passed. You don't have the balls to show up to a brownstoner meeting.

"... that shows your are clueless. Please stay in Lodi...

Posted by: 11233 at December 8, 2008 4:33 PM

ENY: You know better? Doubt it. Don't pretend you know somehting you don't.

Posted by: 11233 at December 8, 2008 4:34 PM

They don't want to pay the 80 bucks, cause that's the day rate for one of their "messengers"

Posted by: 11217 at December 8, 2008 4:40 PM

"hey don't see it What. These guys have money or they have family to back them up. They don't care, it's an inconvenience to them, it's not a 'problem'."

Wow Cobblehiller, you're right! I forgot most of these Asshats don't know what's going on. Thanks for that I really appreciate it. It shows how out of touch people are..

The What

Someday this war is gonna end...

Posted by: Return of The What at December 8, 2008 4:42 PM

1. The street reconstruction project includes 100 new trees but the city is finding it difficult to identify suitable locations, due to the subway and sidewalk vaults. Contact the project field office if you want to suggest a planting site:
t: (718) 857-4894
f: (718) 857-4897
e: hwk973@verizon.net

2. The Department of Small Business Services requires any business improvement district steering committee to demonstrate substantial support (number of property owners in support; assessed value of the properties owned by supporters) before it begins the hearing process. I doubt that opposition at this point is going to stop the Fulton Street BID.

Posted by: g man at December 8, 2008 4:44 PM

Well, I just did a little informal survey of businesses on Fulton from Washington to Grand. At least half of the stores there have "No to BID" signs in their window, indicating a fairly widespread and organized resistance to the BID. These include most of the bodegas but also includes bigger businesses like the Met Foods and the Discount Superstore type place at Grand and Fulton.

As someone who is at least in concept supportive of the BID this widespread resistance is surprising to me. I went into my favorite little deli where the guys behind the counter know their customers names and are super cool and they don't want to pay the dues that they will be charged. I asked whether or not they thought the BID would bring in business that outweigh the monthly costs and they were skeptical. I think, and hope, that they are just not thinking long term enough about this. But I am not in their shoes and am not going to criticize them for that attitude. And certainly from my walk I can say with some confidence that it is not just the little corner bodegas who feel this way.

What, I am surprised that you would say with such confidence that the stretch of Fulton between Grand and Franklin will always be bad. I look at Fulton and see potential but that is just little old "glass half full" me.

Posted by: wasder at December 8, 2008 4:46 PM

I will also add that the guys in the deli are sure that the BID will be imposed upon them despite their resistance. Interesting...as a casual observer I had assumed that the local businesses would be in support.

Posted by: wasder at December 8, 2008 4:48 PM

It is a problem you losers, but we don't sit back and say it's OK. And when I say we, I mean everyone in the community that cares, regardless of race or socio-economic background.

One of the reasons these areas fell into disrepair is that there were too many "what's" around who discouraged people from trying to make changes and tried to intimidate people who aggitated for change.

The fact that you two (what and cobblehiller) don't get that indicates that you never were and will ever be part of the solution. But feel free to ride our coattails as the community makes things nicer for idiots like you.

Posted by: 11233 at December 8, 2008 4:48 PM

I'm going to leave you retards this little tidbit..

Times Co. to borrow against building

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/12/08/business/08times.php

The New York Times Company plans to borrow up to $225 million against its mid-Manhattan headquarters building, to ease a potential cash flow squeeze as the company grapples with tighter credit and shrinking profits.

The company has retained Cushman & Wakefield, the real estate firm, to act as its agent to secure financing, either in the form of a mortgage or a sale-leaseback arrangement, said James Follo, the Times Company's chief financial officer.

The Times Company owns 58 percent of the 52-story, 1.5 million-square-foot tower on Eighth Avenue, which was designed by the architect Renzo Piano, and completed last year. The developer Forest City Ratner owns the rest of the building. The Times Company's portion of the building is not currently mortgaged, and some investors have complained that the company has too much of its capital tied up in that real estate.

The company has two revolving lines of credit, each with a ceiling of $400 million, roughly the amount outstanding on the two combined. One of those lines is set to expire in May, and finding a replacement would be difficult given the economic climate and the company's worsening finances. Analysts have said for months that selling or borrowing against assets would be the company's best option for averting a cash flow problem next year.

The only way for this to stop is a depression and I will get my wish. The only way we can save NY is to burn it to the ground..... I want to see all the keyboard warriors out there, punks!!!!

The What

Someday this war is gonna end...

Posted by: Return of The What at December 8, 2008 4:49 PM

Wasder: You have probably done more about this one issue in one afternoon than the What has ever done in his entire life.

Posted by: 11233 at December 8, 2008 4:51 PM

"ENY: You know better? Doubt it. Don't pretend you know somehting you don't."

Pretend....like you did earlier? First of all, STOREFRONT crack dealing died in the 1990s. How do I know this? For one, I grew up in East New York, the son of a city correction officer, whose dad's friends were primarily police officers. They talked "shop" quite often. I still have friends who are police officers. Secondly, I've lived in Brooklyn all of my life and I know a crack spot when I see one. OK, maybe there are one or two crack spots on Fulton (which I doubt), but overall, the crappy stores are just that - crappy stores. Thirdly, I was previously a reporter for NYC newspapers and covered many crime stories. So let's just say I know what to look for when it comes to street criminality.

Now let's hear your qualifications.

Posted by: East New York at December 8, 2008 4:52 PM

Well wasder...you know how optimistic I am...some say too much.

But one would have to guess that if Fulton did not improve in the last 10 years in which the neighborhood saw a huge influx of wealth, it seems fairly certain that a gentrification isn't on tap for the next few years as we enter into the worst economic times since the Great Depression.

That strip is really really depressing, and it's going to take a huge amount of involvement by everyone to get it on a better track. If half those places don't want it...guess what...it's not going to be successful.

To compare that, I believe 95% of the businesses in the 5th Avenue BID were supportive of that when it happened.

This strip of Fulton resists change, and I'd take a closer look into why that is, because I have heard many instances of drug dealing and cops "in" with the drug dealers in this area, so why not the bodegas?

Just because someone is "nice" does not mean they don't sell weed.

Posted by: 11217 at December 8, 2008 4:53 PM

I also doubt that there are too many drug fronts among the delis on Fulton (at least the stretch I frequent, Washington to Grand). Crappy some of them are for sure, but drug fronts I doubt it.

Also, What, my favorite coffee shop (Outpost) is on the stretch of Fulton that you describe as being doomed to failure. Hopefully the very thriving nature of their business will show people that you can do well on that stretch.

Posted by: wasder at December 8, 2008 4:56 PM

I didn't mean to imply that Fulton did not improve at all over the past decade, but the change seems to be coming at a snail's pace.

And no, I don't believe it should become another Smith or 5th Avenue, nor do I think it has the potential to become like those...

Posted by: 11217 at December 8, 2008 4:58 PM

Well wasder,

If they aren't drug fronts, one does have to wonder how one of those bodegas which I'm guessing have ridiculously low rent would not pay 80 dollars a month to improve their business, nearby neighbors and community. Especially when other BIDs around the city have been so clearly successful.

There must be another reason why so many of these guys don't want to be recognized in the BID. wink wink....

You know what...if my local bodega didn't want to contribute 80 dollars a month to better the neighborhood, I simply wouldn't give them my business anymore.

Start talking with your wallet.

Posted by: 11217 at December 8, 2008 5:03 PM

I frequented the corner bogeda I mentioned and lived in that neighborhood for 6 years before I moved. There are two "hotels" in the area, one just north of Fulton and the other one block south of Fulton. Both are on Classon.

I still pass the location I was talking about on a weekly basis despite having moved away from that location. It is painfully obvious that several of the lovely people who spend their day on this corner seem to have something to do when the cops come around. (Shocking!)

I have lived in NYC all my life, including stints in 4 of the 5 boros. Never lived in Staten Island.

Based on what you wrote above, you actually don't know the area I was talking about as well as I do. Try again.

Storefront drug dealing is not gone. What planet do you live on?

Unless you were some old-time reporter that walked around this area and got to know everyone, you have no idea what is going on.

You have no clue.

Try again.

Posted by: 11233 at December 8, 2008 5:03 PM

11217---the guys in my deli, besides being "nice", provide a very valuable service to their customers. They sometimes extend credit to folks and they generally are friendly and their store is well stocked. They are definitely not selling weed. I can't say with certainty that none of the bodegas sell weed but I haven't seen evidence of it. Also, their resistance to the BID seems to be wrapped up in practical business concerns rather than any sort of desire to see their surroundings remain blighted. They just don't see how their 80 bucks a month (or whatever it is) is going to be recouped (though I think as I said that they are not thinking long term enough).

In re gentrification in the next few years if it didn't happen in the last 10 I agree in principle with you. It would be naive to assume that just because a BID is proposed that everything will be roses. But I think people underestimate the damage done to the neighborhood by the very lengthy public works project that is just now wrapping up a year and a half late. So many people flat out stopped coming to Fulton during this time that aggressive steps will have to be taken to get people to come back. I must say that just seeing the road paved takes away a substantial portion of the cringe factor.

Posted by: wasder at December 8, 2008 5:04 PM

11217--I have no interest in getting into an argument about whether or not the bodegas are selling drugs. But keep in mind that the Met Foods (the only major grocery store in the area) is against the BID as well (that was a real surprise to me) so the resistance must have other reasons besides drug trafficking.

Posted by: wasder at December 8, 2008 5:06 PM

I know of one bodega in Park Slope on 5th Avenue that I'm sure is a drug front, so I'm SURE it happens on Fulton Street.

I have to agree with 11233 here. The folks saying it doesn't happen anymore are REALLY naive, especially when you take into account the kind of crime that still happens around this area not to mention the crimes that are not reported by police in the area immediately around Fulton Street.

Posted by: 11217 at December 8, 2008 5:10 PM

Alright, fair enough. If I concede that there might be some delis that are drug fronts (which I don't have any info about) can you posit a reason why larger stores like the Met Foods is against the BID?

Posted by: wasder at December 8, 2008 5:15 PM

Wasder, as it relates to Met Foods, could they possibly see a BID as creating an opportunity for competition? If they do, why would they support something that might create a rival that would create a price/quality war that they might lose or at least suffer from with lower profit margins?

Posted by: 11233 at December 8, 2008 5:19 PM

No idea, but having gone in their once and immediately walking out due to the smell not unlike that of what i imagine dead bodies to smell like, one has to wonder...

Posted by: 11217 at December 8, 2008 5:20 PM

11233--I guess they could be afraid of competition but really one would think that these businesses would understand the "rising tide raises all boats" concept. I must admit to being mystified.

Posted by: wasder at December 8, 2008 5:22 PM

11217--don't know how long ago that was but the Met Foods is actually OK now. They have good selection of produce and they have really stepped up the availability of organic products. But really, I don't mean to be argumentative about any of this. I want the BID to succeed but I must admit to being surprised by the resistance. and as I know these very decent people who run my deli I need to at least take their concerns into consideration.

Posted by: wasder at December 8, 2008 5:26 PM

11233, I'm still waiting to hear how you are able to determine which storefronts on Fulton Street sell drugs and which are simply crappy stores.

According to your rationale, because you saw some street people walk away from the police, that means "The only businesses that don't want the bid are the ones who have nothing to gain from an improved retail environment, e.g., the cheezy bodegas that do a nice business selling drugs to the crackheads that "live" in the hotels near Fulton and Classon." So according to you, the entire anti-BID sentiment on Fulton is attributable to the storefronts that sell crack. Uh-huh.

THEN you say "I frequented the corner bogeda I mentioned," but actually you DIDN'T mention one specific bodega. Hmmmm. Also, if you DID frequent a crack-dealing, crappy bodega on Fulton Street, why didn't you inform the police that drugs were being sold there or at least STOP "frequent[ing]" the place?

Sounds to me like you've been smoking some of the "product."

Posted by: East New York at December 8, 2008 5:32 PM

If there's a dude with dreadlocks sitting outside the bodega, it's selling drugs, right? I learned that in the official "white person's guide to Brooklyn" packet that they hand to all of us gentrifiers ...

Posted by: cwbuecheler at December 8, 2008 5:38 PM

ENY: If you knew the interesection I was referring to in my post @ 3:51, you would know there is only one bogeda even close to the location I mentioned.

I have never tried any product. Nice, sad attempt to change the topic.

YOU never mentioned how you know how this stretch of Fulton. You know why? Because you don't. When are you going to admit you don't know what you are talking about?

Give it a rest ENY.

Obviously, your "qualifications" are seriously lacking.

And good to see ROTW and cobllehiller keeping quiet. You morons don't know anything either.

Posted by: 11233 at December 8, 2008 5:40 PM

Wasder--

I generally agree with you, but the Met is not okay now. The store is still filthy, and the produce, organic or otherwise, generally tastes like bongwater.

I think the skanky Met owners prefer the down and dirty aspects of the street--like another poster said, they don't want competition.

Posted by: tinarina at December 8, 2008 5:43 PM

Wasder: A rising tide also sinks a leaky boat.

Posted by: 11233 at December 8, 2008 5:47 PM

here is some information from an anti-bid flyer i was given

What is the Fulton Street BID?

It is Fulton Street from Rockwell and Ashland Places to Classon Avenue. NYC and Pratt Area Community Council (PACC) decided to make this stretch into a BID to be able to collect a new tax from property owners, residential and commercial. Property owners will pass the tax on to tenants.

How much is the BID tax?

$1 a year for homeowners. The properties that make up a BID must be contiguous to be legal, and since there are no businesses on Fulton from South Elliott to Vanderbilt, the homes at Atlantic Commons on Fulton must be charged something: the $1 a year to the homeowners makes possible the heavy tax on the stores, which, for 2009, will be $80 for every 20 feet of frontage on Fulton. Every month. Corner businesses will be charged another $120. The Met Supermarket, for example, will pay about $500/month; Master Sabu Humble Martial Arts, $500/month; Sister’s Hardware $120/month, and so on. The stores will pass the tax on to their customers in higher prices.

Who will collect this money?

PACC.

What will PACC do with your money?

* Take a fee for themselves off the top.

* Appoint a District Manager at more than $50,000 a year, plus health insurance and vacation.

* Hire workers from the Doe Fund to sweep the sidewalks you have cleaned yourselves. The Doe sweeps will not stop the City from ticketing as usual.

* Hire an unarmed “guard” to stroll the street and drop in and out of stores a couple of times a week.

* Provide “improvements” and “enhancements” such as fancy garbage cans, flags, banners, holiday lights, etc. In 2009 the Fulton BID plans to collect $300,000 from you all and has the green light to install $3,000,000 of enhancements and improvements. Do the math. That leaves a $2,700,000 deficit. Who pays that? You’re right! YOU!

The BID tax can increase every year. You will have to pay. If you don’t, the City will put a lien on your property. In other words, the Fulton Street Business Improvement District can put you out of business!

Posted by: filmmer at December 8, 2008 5:48 PM

filmmer: can you confirm that anything or everything stated on that flier is true?

Posted by: 11233 at December 8, 2008 5:51 PM

"ENY: If you knew the interesection I was referring to in my post @ 3:51, you would know there is only one bogeda even close to the location I mentioned."

As I said, and you have now confirmed, you didn't name a specific bodega. I'll ask again: how are you able to determine which storefronts on Fulton Street sell drugs and which are simply crappy stores?

Posted by: East New York at December 8, 2008 5:53 PM

You're such a charmer 11233!

I was on my way home, but really I don't have much more to add to your inflammatory and disrespectful post. filmmer has just added some good notes that say it all.

Thanks for the cheery note, have a good day!

Posted by: cobblehiller at December 8, 2008 5:56 PM

"here is some information from an anti-bid flyer i was given"

Of course! These concerns are all shared by the storefront drug dealers (not) identified by 11233.

Posted by: East New York at December 8, 2008 5:56 PM

filmmer--thanks for putting that up. interesting to see the strategy and concerns of the BID opponents. I still think that businesses are being short sighted about what this money could do in the longer term. It just doesn't sound like that much money.

tinarina: I have only shopped in the Met twice so far so I can't claim any special knowledge but it didn't seem as bad as all that. I wonder though about their opposition. I find it hard to believe that 500 a month would seriously hinder a business of that size.

Color me confused about the whole thing. I just want Fulton Street to be a functioning commercials strip and will support whatever plan makes that happen most effectively.

Posted by: wasder at December 8, 2008 6:00 PM

"They don't see it What. These guys have money or they have family to back them up. They don't care, it's an inconvenience to them, it's not a 'problem'."

- cobblehiller

No, CH'er, you're the charmer. And an idiot. BTW: The flier may, or may not, have any facts associated with it. If you can't see that there is a potential for spin - on both sides - you are, in fact, a moron. I didn;t dispute anything filmmer noted, but it would be interesting how much is fact and how much is spin.

ENY: Can't admit you don't know what you are talking about? Sad and immature. Why should anyone take you seriously?

Posted by: 11233 at December 8, 2008 6:02 PM

Wait...that flyer must be gospel!!!

Just like the fliers which were sent out in Virginia saying that Democrats should vote on November 5th...

Posted by: 11217 at December 8, 2008 6:06 PM

Ok, you go get your facts straight and then let us know what you find out. If you don't think there is a fee attached to this, and that a store owner will be forced to pay it then why don't they just do it without asking the businesses?

Oh I just adore it when people call me names, don't you? It really makes my day! Love you too 11233!

Posted by: cobblehiller at December 8, 2008 6:07 PM

11233, just answer the question: how are you able to determine which storefronts on Fulton Street sell drugs and which are simply crappy stores?

Posted by: East New York at December 8, 2008 6:13 PM

It might have been helpful if Brownstoner provided some links to more information.

http://www.fultonstreetbid.bravehost.com/l

Posted by: cobblehiller at December 8, 2008 6:14 PM

I already answered your question. As a reporter, you don't know how to read.

ENY: YOU answwer MY quesiton. How do you know otherwise? Stop trying to avoid the question.

Posted by: 11233 at December 8, 2008 6:26 PM

And get rid of us..

East New York be very careful fighting the Asshats. They have the power of Greed and Delusion on their side.

"I have lived in NYC all my life, including stints in 4 of the 5 boros. Never lived in Staten Island."

No 11233 you lived on Manhattan all your life. Now you live in the Ghetto!

"Also, What, my favorite coffee shop (Outpost) is on the stretch of Fulton that you describe as being doomed to failure. Hopefully the very thriving nature of their business will show people that you can do well on that stretch."

I will get the Outpost 2 years and goodbye...

"And good to see ROTW and cobllehiller keeping quiet. You morons don't know anything either."

Naw Baby, you see you are a "keyboard warrior" just like Dave, Biff, THL and BRG! Don't worry 2009 is coming...

The What

Someday this war is gonna end...

Posted by: Return of The What at December 8, 2008 6:30 PM

Hmm, facts ... on Brownstoner? Can't we just attack each other? As to filmmer's post:

The geographic boundaries sound right. Homeowners are only charged $1 and the residential area mentioned was included so there would not have to be two BIDs; one to the east and another to the west. Based on the assessment formula, which varies from BID to BID, larger and corner stores generally pay more, so those reported assessments might be accurate. All true, so far, I think.

I do not think that PACC takes a cut off the top. However, the district management staff may be people currently working at PACC and a portion of their salaries may end up being paid from the assessment. Sweeping by Doe Fund employees doesn't stop the city from writing tickets, but it does decrease the liklihood of getting one. (A shop-keeper might want to ask, 'how much do I spend on staff sweeping and tickets each year, versus the BID assessment.') The BID does not have the power to borrow money, so it cannot spend more than it takes in; the allegation about $2,700,000 in debt is pure hogwash. The "improvements" and "enhancements," btw, are intended to increase revenue, so that shop-keepers realize a financial benefit from being in a BID. Arguably, the businesses at the eastern end of the BID would benefit more from joint advertising and the like.

An individual store's assessment can go up annually if the formula is based in part on the property assessment. However, the BID (if approved) is only authorized to collect $300,000 per year, so who pays more and who pays less gets adjusted but the total budget remains the same. So this statement is mostly false.

Posted by: g man at December 8, 2008 6:30 PM

"I already answered your question. ENY: YOU answwer MY quesiton. How do you know otherwise? Stop trying to avoid the question."

I can read well enough to know you're a poor speller. And despite your claim, you never did answer my question, and I think I know why: your information is about as reliable as your spelling.

Posted by: East New York at December 8, 2008 6:35 PM

I'm unsure why you guys keep talking to the what when there are pet parrots out there that have a wider variety of things to say ...

Posted by: cwbuecheler at December 8, 2008 6:49 PM

PACC cannot collect the BID assessments. They are collected by NYC Dept of Finance along with real estate taxes. The assessment can be passed along by the landlord to the tenant, if the tenant's (commercial) lease allows the pass through of assessments, which is typical.

BIDs do not necessarily gentrify an area, but they do contribute to clean and safe streets and provide enhanced marketing opportunities, which can increase the shopper base. I can think of a number of small Brooklyn BIDs that have not become engines of gentrification.

If there are $2.7 million in physical improvements coming- that would be in a commitment of NYC capital dollars- which can be committed to a BID. The City (EDC) generally oversees the construction- which usually consist of lighting, street furniture and trees. Ongoing maintenance is usually performed by the BID, except for lighting which is usually maintained by DOT, except for custom lighting outside the City standards.

Posted by: sef at December 8, 2008 6:59 PM

"The fact that you two (what and cobblehiller) don't get that indicates that you never were and will ever be part of the solution."

As long time residents and taxpayers, we are, in fact, part of the solution. I have stayed in my neighborhood and shopped in the local stores purposefully to support them, and have volunteered for and donated to various community efforts. I pay a hefty sum to be here mainly because I have lived here for over 40 years, and I intend to be here for as long as possible. I've also supported many businesses in the Clinton Hill and Fort Greene area for many years. My taxes, despite having no children, help pay for schools and many other services in this area.

Your insults prove your basic inability to be civil and hold an informed conversation. I've said nothing insulting to you and yet insult me. g_man is correct. There needs to be more information, conversation and less bickering on this site.

Go curl up with some dinner, a relaxing drink and take it easy 11233.

And ooh, Jeopardy is on!

Posted by: cobblehiller at December 8, 2008 7:04 PM

just to be clear- i was neither confirming or denying what was written in the flier- it was not something that i wrote- simply received- questions were asked about the objections- and i was passing them on.

Posted by: filmmer at December 8, 2008 7:18 PM

ENY: You still failed to answer my quesiton. Questioning my spelling is a lame attempt to avoid me. I have been to teh location in quesiton. You just don't like the answer. You know nothing about this area. You just can't admit it. Sad, sad, sad.

t'What: I have spent the bulk of my life in Brooklyn. The least amnount of time living in Manhattan. I have always worked in Manhattan. You are, as always, wrong.

CH'er: You implied that "we" have money or our parents have money and that this is not our problem. You, like ENY, are totally off base and really don't know what you are talking about.

g man actually summarized the issue nicely. Thank you, g man.

Posted by: 11233 at December 8, 2008 7:24 PM

Oh dear, sorry, I meant to imply that you are not really all that seriously interested in something that would actually support and help the existing local businesses and not penalize them. Have you got your facts together yet, did the link help?

My apologies for being unclear!

Cheers!

Posted by: cobblehiller at December 8, 2008 7:32 PM

I don't care about any crappy 99 cent store or bodega that lets dealers hang out in front. The only history in those blocks are drugs and crime. I want an Urban Outfitters, American Apparel, and a Trader Joe's. You need to remember that Park Slope was like this in the 80's, look where it is now. I can't wait AND WILL WAIT IT OUT.

Posted by: The When at December 8, 2008 7:53 PM

Girl on Grand62
Awesome!

Posted by: The When at December 8, 2008 7:54 PM

Maybe Fulton needs an AREA Kids!

Posted by: areakidsbrooklyn at December 8, 2008 8:30 PM

Wasder -
I know I am late to this chat (and still haven't been by to greet you to the nieghborhood), but you have a rather overly-optimistic view of the neighborhood bodegas. I would hardly call the bodega on the northwest corner of the Grand and Putnam the heart of the community. It is a spot where people duck into to do drug transactions. the owners have cut that down to some extent by their recent redesign - plate glass front and aisles that are visible from the front. Many, if not all, of the bodegas sell drug paraphernalia. The future of the area lies in a better stocked supermarket, green grocer, bakery (which we just got!), etc, not identical bodegas on every corner.

Posted by: Putnamdenizen at December 8, 2008 8:51 PM

Putnamdenizen...welcome back, I think you said you were overseas...was it China?? You've missed a lot but this thread was representative of a lot of the bickering thats been going on...a lot of it healthy and a lot of it crap.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at December 8, 2008 9:05 PM

"It is a spot where people duck into to do drug transactions."

How do you know this Putnamdenizen!

Wow let me say this: Why do the Asshats think every Ghetto needs "inproving"?. Is this code for get rid of the residents? Tell me MOFO! Plus why didn't you "improve" where the ferk you came from??????!!!!! HuH! Asshats move into the Ghetto and now we need "improvement!!!! Kiss my Ass!!!

Please 2009 can't get here soon enough!!

The What

Someday this war is gonna end...

Posted by: Return of The What at December 8, 2008 9:07 PM

"You've missed a lot but this thread was representative of a lot of the bickering thats been going on...a lot of it healthy and a lot of it crap."

Plenty coming from your pie hole!!!

The What

Someday this war is gonna end...

Posted by: Return of The What at December 8, 2008 9:08 PM

Why does the Ghetto need improving????

Stop it; there is a difference between not wanting long time residents and business to be forced out and accepting a lower standard of living as if it is a badge of honor.

Why should we expect and accept garbage flying thru the air, swirling on the streets, landing in trees and the fronts of homes three blocks away?

I don't believe I deserve higher priced, lower quality food and products; expired goods on the shelfs and items covered in a thick coat of dust.

I wouldn't mind a few festive lights and pretty store fronts. It does make shopping more enjoyable.

Why can't we ever realize that we have to take care of what we have before someone else recognizes the value and takes it away from us? Then everyone starts screaming it's mine give it back. Too late. The "ghetto" is only the "ghetto" when people stop caring.

Posted by: bedstuy11216 at December 8, 2008 9:31 PM

putnamdenien--I just haven't seen that side of that deli. not saying its not possible but I have seen the same people in there most mornings chatting and hanging out and I do not feel threatened or unwelcome and I buy beer there. That is all I am saying. If you have specific info about this place then you know more than me but in my experience I have not gotten the "drug trade" vibe off that bodega. Anyway, I try not to make snap judgments about people or things when I am new to an area. But I am not an idiot or overly naive (not saying you think I am either btw). I am sure my residence in the neighborhood will eventually erode any unnecessary naivete!

Please do stop by sometime. I am working out of my home so I am around all the time.

Posted by: wasder at December 8, 2008 10:48 PM

I also would welcome decorations, security, lighting and trees!

Posted by: wasder at December 8, 2008 10:50 PM

The look and feel of this area will change now. There are plenty of vacant shopfronts and empty buildings that are now viable with the improved look of the road and the BID.

Clinton Hill got some real improvements during the upturn and I think that a little commercial boom could occur on Fulton. Its not hard to imagine the right businesses doing well there, catering to the new customer base.

The same people that own the met own much of the street. They are worried about change and as landlord they pay most of the cost which they may not be able to pass onto leasees.

At least one of the stores sells the wacky baccy but I don't think its all of the bodegas. Its permitted where I come from so I don't see the big deal. It is the combination of poverty/unemployment/unhappiness + drugs that is the problem. You can't remove the drugs but you should try to remove the other stuff.

Wasder I like the guys in your bodega too. That corner still has some problems though, although I don't think those guys are any part of the issue.

Posted by: Aussie at December 8, 2008 10:51 PM

And the efforts they have made to make their bodega less conducive to the drug trade are welcome. It was really a scary, unfriendly place when I moved in seven years ago. I still, I must admit it, avoid that bodega - but since there are four others within 200 feet it isn't a big deal.

Posted by: Putnamdenizen at December 8, 2008 10:59 PM

Hey Wasder we must live within a couple of blocks of each other. Unfortunately I'm heading away for a couple of years in a few weeks. But your welcome to a beer on my stoop one evening. I thought you had lived in the area for ages, but just bought.

Posted by: Aussie at December 8, 2008 11:00 PM

bedstuy11216 just had what should be comment of the month, in my opinion.

Thanks for bringing some truth and reality to what sometimes gets lost among rants from people on both sides of what seems like an endless argument on this blog (I know I've been part of this).

You just said something real though...something true and something helpful to hear...and I hope some people listen. I did for sure.

Posted by: 11217 at December 8, 2008 11:00 PM

aussie--i have lived in clinton hill since 02 but I was up at Clinton and Lafayette until a few months ago. Just learning the ropes of my new hood. Would love to take you up on a beer sometime. Sorry to hear you are leaving. I am married to an Aussie by the way and spend a good deal of time each year in Bondi.

Posted by: wasder at December 8, 2008 11:10 PM

putnam--i am sure if i had been here that whole time my perspective would be different. Lets hope that the BID, or whatever else, helps Fulton Street improve.

Posted by: wasder at December 8, 2008 11:11 PM

Really! I keep telling my wife there is nothing better than being married to an Aussie(-: E-mail me on roaming-matt@hotmail.com. We have to have a beer, will pick them up at the bodega. Putnam your close too right?

Posted by: Aussie at December 8, 2008 11:20 PM

bedstuy11216 - well said!

Posted by: Montrose Morris at December 9, 2008 12:08 AM

I would be interested to know if anyone on this thread went to the meeting last night?

True, delis might not get much out of being in a BID, but I dont think that is the issue, and this argument has veered way off track.

BIDs are supposed to be "for businesses, by businesses", yet this one is being started essentially by one salaried individual at Pratt Area Community Council (see http://pacc.publishpath.com/bid), on - ahem - DEKALB AVENUE.

Good luck trying to get information about the BID Steering Committee, or even participating if you are on Fulton. When multiple phone calls go unreturned, and we hear about meetings the day after, what are folks supposed to think? Did the grant not include funding for a mailing or an intern to walk down Fulton with some flyers?

Now, we love our Tisha James, but some transparency would help get folks on board.

So far, somethings fishy on Fulton St.

Posted by: k_on_fulton at December 9, 2008 12:04 PM

k--are you a business owner on Fulton?

In re PACC's involvement they seem to have had a very positive impact on Myrtle Ave (which is as far from Dekalb as Fulton is). Do you agree with that?

Posted by: wasder at December 9, 2008 12:09 PM

MARP - myrtle ave revitalization project is responsible for the work on myrtle. i'm not sure of what their relationship to PACC is but i want to make sure credit goes where credit it due. marp.org

Posted by: filmmer at December 9, 2008 12:20 PM

Further clarification...first of all marp.org sends you to a michigan based website. the actual address for MARP is myrtleavenue.org. Secondly on the MARP website they list PACC as a partner in the project so I am not incorrect in my statement that PACC has had a positive impact on Myrtle Ave.

Posted by: wasder at December 9, 2008 12:30 PM

I think part of the disconnect that k on fulton identifies is that mailings go to property owners. Although many if not most commercial leases have a pass-through clause, real estate taxes and BID assessments are paid by property owners, so that is who PACC contacts. That is who the Department of Small Business Services wants to see support or oppose the plan. Every BID steering committee includes business owners.

Posted by: g man at December 9, 2008 12:31 PM

Hello All...

I am a member of the BID steering committee and thought i'd tell you what I know about the opposition to the BID. As far as I know, most businesses are supporting the BID. However, Met food's owner (who owns a substantial number of properties between washington and grand aves.) is opposing the BID, probably for financial reasons. Most of the storefronts that are displaying the "NO BID" signs are owned by that same property owner.

The BID does have the support of Tish James as well as almost all elected officials who represent the neighborhood. Also, it's important to note that the money assessed from the properties and given to the BID, is being reinvested back into the community. This, in my opinion, is how good government is supposed to work. The BID board is made up of local merchants, residents and property owners. Together, they decide how to spend the budget.

The Anti-BID flyer is printed by someone who has a beef with PACC and it is filled with inaccuracies. They are using Anti-PACC sentiment to bring down the BID. However, if they do manage to kill the plan, they will be making the lives of already struggling business owners harder.

Posted by: clintonista at December 11, 2008 12:19 AM

clintonista=lies

The What

Someday this war is gonna end..

Posted by: Return of The What at December 13, 2008 12:01 AM

ah, but if the what says lies, it's probably true, right?

Posted by: clintonista at December 30, 2008 10:53 PM

« Today on the Forum Closing Bell: Brooklyn Winters, Now in Arkansas »

December 8, 2008

Fulton BID Gaining Momentum

Trackback Pings

Comments

Post a comment

Latest Restaurant Additions