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December 15, 2008

Closing Bell: Keeping Quiet in Park Slope

airplane-brooklyn-1208.jpg
Park Slope isn't known as a particularly noisy neighborhood, aside from the normal mixture of traffic, sirens, screaming school kids. But some folks are seriously bothered by the rumble of low-flying planes. So bothered, in fact, that they've created the group Brooklyn Against Aircraft Noise, replete with a signable petition and a call to spread the flying routes out evenly, so no one neighborhood will be targeted with blaring engines...not to mention that blue ice.
Photo by judester1213.




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I think this thread will quite rapidly veer off topic. If this isn't one of the best examples of a bunch of loonies with too much time on their hands fighting for a ridiculous cause then I don't know what is.

Do they have t-shirts?

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at December 15, 2008 4:04 PM

I'll stay on topic. I live in PS and rarely ever notice the noise when I'm outside, thus NEVER hear it when indoors. The group really really needs to channel their energy and time elsewhere. Double-wide strollers are more of a nuisance to me than airplane noise.

Posted by: goldie at December 15, 2008 4:12 PM

Oh pu-leeze. Airplanes have to fly over somebody, so why not there? It's ok for somebody else's neighborhood, but not them? Next they'll be petitioning for the ability to seed the clouds, or cause an ecipse, so that rain and sun occur only when wanted.

Posted by: Montrose Morris at December 15, 2008 4:13 PM

NIMAs...Not In My Airspace

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at December 15, 2008 4:17 PM

That's eclipse, for those whose typing skills eclipse mine.

Posted by: Montrose Morris at December 15, 2008 4:21 PM

My corner of Clinton Hill is also on the landing path (and even lower than Park Slope). How would anyone establish a spread out airspace? Let's see, planes converging from all directions on the same landing strip versus planes lined up one after the other to land. Come on, this gotta be a joke!

Posted by: Putnamdenizen at December 15, 2008 4:22 PM

What's next? The curbs are too high? Some people really want to have problems.

Posted by: JKB at December 15, 2008 4:25 PM

I say we move the three major airports servicing NYC out to Iowa...that'll make it quite.

Posted by: bayridgegirl at December 15, 2008 4:25 PM

"Attention passengers, we are currently in a holding pattern and cannot land until Ms. Glenda Smith-Hutchin's in vitro fertilized 18 month old twins Ethan and Gabriella wake from their afternoon nap. At that point, we'll have a direct descent to runway 42 at LaGuardia. Thank you for your patience."

Posted by: Biff Champion at December 15, 2008 4:28 PM

Brownstoner:

This post recalls the horrific mid-air collision that made a plane crash right in the middle of Park Slope during the early 1960's, when I was a boy in nearby Crown Heights.

The collision, between a jet and a "prop" over New York Bay, forced one of the pilots to try to land in Prospect Park. He missed by a couple of blocks, landing near Seventh Avenue, his plane ripping through brownstone fronts and setting fire to two buildings at the street corner (only recently rebuilt with new condos).

Everyone aboard and several people on the street were killed, except for a young boy on his way to Boston for the winter holidays. The entire country turned to the radio broadcasts recounting his injuries and condition -- until he died.

It was a sad moment for Brooklyn kids, who identified with him, and for whom schools in the vicinity, including mine, were closed early that day. (This was in the midst of the Cold War, and the spectre of planes -- or worse -- dropping from the skies was terrifying; except this time it was real!)

I sat by the radio, too. The boy's parents, not traveling with him, thanked New Yorkers for their prayers. When he died, a collective sigh crossed Brooklyn.

I had family living in the block where the plane fell. For my cousins, it became a point of pride to point out the damage, as if they'd lived through a war. But what a horrible moment. Neighbors on the street were killed, too.

Even now when I walk by that corner on Seventh Avenue I imagine what it must have been like: hanging out on the stoop (which kids always did) and seeing the nose of that plane come roaring down the street.

Nostalgic on Park Avenue

Posted by: NOP at December 15, 2008 4:29 PM

I'm sorry, but whine, whine, whine.

Posted by: BrooklynButler at December 15, 2008 4:30 PM

Yeah NOP, there are some pretty amazing photos of the crash site.

Posted by: wasder at December 15, 2008 4:32 PM

i'm surprised at all the snark against the idea.

i can definitely hear the airplanes above. and why not spread it out? i think we have the technology to share the burden.

if dinkins can remove the tennis stadium from the flight path, then we can remove my barbeque from the flightpath.

Posted by: bkn4life at December 15, 2008 4:34 PM

I've lived in PS for 8 years and am never bothered by aircraft (now helicopters that's another story.) What's with these people and their horrible website? And where are their hilarious photographs?

Posted by: cmu at December 15, 2008 4:42 PM

NOP....that's a horrific story. When I was in high school a 727 landed in our neighbors house. We were standing outside in front of our house and watched as this plane flew above us almost touching our own roof. I've never seen anything like it once I got there. It was up in Albany, NY..Allegheny Airlines back then around 76 or 77.

Even then no one in our neighborhood attempted something as utterly ridiculous as to have the flight paths moved.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at December 15, 2008 4:42 PM

NOP, thanks for that story. i looked it up to find out exactly where the crash hit (Seventh at Sterling) and found an old newsreel video of the crash site:

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/tsgtv/index.html?id=TSGV5-38&link=TSGTVshlk

Posted by: z at December 15, 2008 4:44 PM

I used to sit and stare out the window and watch the planes fly by and it was pretty pleasant to watch.

people always find something to complain about

Posted by: Santa at December 15, 2008 4:55 PM

When I lived park Slope I remember the noise of the planes. If my window was open and i was on the phone, i would have to wait until the plane was gone to continue speaking, that's how loud it was. However having lived in one of the five bouroughs my whole life, I was used to this because there are three major airports in within 40 miles or less of each other. So no matter where you lived, you'll hear planes. I didn't even think of complaining.

Too much time on their hands.

Posted by: italiana71 at December 15, 2008 4:56 PM

I'd like to add one more bit of info to NOP's summary of the mid-air collision in the early 60's.

Until 9/11, this collision was the greatest civil aviation catastrophe in US, in terms of loss of life. You can see photos of this accident in the Puritan Diner on the corner 7th Ave and 6th (?) Street.

Being a recent resident of Park Slope, I have no trouble believing that the nimby'ism has reached this level. I'm sure that this is being done for the "sake of their (precious) children". In my building, you can't get two folks together to have an adult social, or to discuss our condo's business affairs. Announce a party for the precious ones, and they come out of the woodwork

Posted by: benson at December 15, 2008 4:59 PM

NOMBY: Not over my backyard

Especially when I'm grillin'!

Posted by: Action Jackson at December 15, 2008 5:06 PM

I've lived in Park Slope since June and I had absolutely no idea there was any plane traffic overhead. I've never noticed it, outdoors or in.

Posted by: cwbuecheler at December 15, 2008 5:06 PM


One of the trade-offs that people make for living in an urban area is the proximity of other people and the noise, smells, waste, and other environmental impacts that this proximity contributes.

I wonder how the folks of Park Slope would react when they discovered that the impact of their attempt to curtail aircraft noise was that they had to travel to either Islip or Stewart Airport to get a flight to their all-important vacation.

Perhaps they would be happier on a farm. Of course the crop-dusters might be a bit noisy, too.

Posted by: duckwalk at December 15, 2008 5:15 PM

Great find z. That was cool to see.

Posted by: wasder at December 15, 2008 5:15 PM

Benson:

That was not the deadliest civil aviation accident in the US prior to 9/11, not by a long shot, though it doesn't make it any less horrific. The death toll was 90. PSA 182 crashed on September 25, 1978 in San Diego, killing 144 (including my father - that's how I know this), but that was quickly surpassed by other disasters.

Posted by: sixyearsandcounting at December 15, 2008 5:21 PM

You have to be kidding me. We are on the glide path folks, where the engines are very quiet. Airplane traffic is so much less noisy than street traffic in the slope. Get over it. Try living in northern queens or in the bronx, where you can listen to takeoff noise. Now that's real noise pollution.

Pampered litte NIMBYish jerkoffs.

Posted by: lechacal at December 15, 2008 5:22 PM

lechacal--where have you been hiding yourself?

Posted by: wasder at December 15, 2008 5:28 PM

superb photo.... i love the lights of the planes seen from my deck in Boerum Hill coming on the southern approach to LAG... however, if i could hear them i would feel differently
Bed-Stuy and CH folks have complained about this route for years.....

Posted by: BK realestate veteran at December 15, 2008 5:31 PM

Back-to-the-wall busy with work Wasder, and traveling a lot... that and I've sort of decided to walk away from my apartment search for the next year or so. I stop by every few days or so, but haven't really had much to say.

Posted by: lechacal at December 15, 2008 5:36 PM

How about asking the city to actually put break pads on city buses!? My apartment overlooks Dekalb avenue in Clinton Hill, and I can't even open up my window in the summer because of the horrible screeching of bus breaks every 5 minutes.

I don't think I've ever heard a plane going overhead while inside my building - and the flight path is almost directly overhead.

Posted by: kjp216 at December 15, 2008 6:05 PM

I always find it reassuring after being away for awhile to look out the airplane window on the return flight and see that my house is still standing. We live directly under the flight path. I used to know the timing pattern... It was something like every 9 minutes. Every once in awhile we"ll get a low flyer that rattles the windows, but other than that it's not bothersome. The week after 9/11 when everything was grounded, that was eerily quiet. That's when you notice the sound, in it's absence.

Posted by: IMBY at December 15, 2008 6:12 PM

I agree with kip216 that buses are way noisier and more annoying than living under the flight path (I also live in PS). But this is the city and it's noisy. I grew up across the street from a firehouse and spent summers in Rockaway, right under the Concorde flight path. It just made me a very sound sleeper.

BTW, cool photo.

Posted by: CMM at December 15, 2008 6:28 PM

sixyearsandcounting,

I am so sorry to hear that. I imagine this story rattled a bit. Though many years, that kind of loss never really diminishes.

On another note I am amused with watching the retorts to this story come rolling in about the "pampered, spoiled, self-entitled, rich, parents of Park Slope who have nothing, NOTHING better to do with their time". How children fit into this, I don't know, but it had to happen.

Posted by: Nokilissa at December 15, 2008 6:31 PM

sixtyyearsandcounting, that's very sad.

We used to live in Park Slope, we still go there all the time shopping or doctor appts, etc etc, and I have never ever noticed airplane noise and if I ever did it was not at a problem level. As Lechecal and others are saying, other parts of NYC and the country have a much bigger problem with noise from planes, and it's true the bus and traffic noise in Park Slope is way louder than any planes.

Posted by: traditionalmod at December 15, 2008 6:51 PM

... so before i moved to park slope, i lived in bushwick where the planes come in reaallll low over my apartment.

with the windows open it was ridiculous...

unless you're laying in the park and listneing, a plane should never bother you. close your bloody windows

Posted by: sender9999 at December 15, 2008 6:55 PM

Posters:

Yes, that photo must be eerily similar to the view of the plane as it swerved over Brooklyn before it crashed. It, more than anything, dredged up my boyhood memory.

I fly in and out of New York all the time now, and always try to guess the approach before choosing which side of the cabin to sit. There's nothing like coming into the city over familiar streets (past and present), especially as I did recently for the holidays, when the night was crystal clear and the town's lights were ablaze.

The post's photo looks down into Clinton Hill and Bedford-Stuyvesant. There are University Terrace and Willoughby Walk, the old Mitchell-Lama projects built to either side of Pratt, and Lafayette Gardens, the nearby public housing project, all visible in the shot. (Are they still called these names, or have they been "privatized" and re-branded?) I watched these being built and, even though some may find them architecturally dull, always get a pleasant feeling when I see them from the air -- part of a Brooklyn childhood.

As some of the posters note, the sound of planes can be pleasant. As train whistles once did, they convey distance and travel. Right now helicopters are whirring overhead, guarding Manhattan's air space. Whenever I hear them, I expect to hear a big boom. A very different kind of anticipation. (Back during the Cold War, we thought we'd immolated without warning -- and in our sleep!)

NOP

Posted by: NOP at December 15, 2008 6:57 PM

P.S. also, I know people who work at JFK and if you ever fly yourself and had any idea how congested and dangerous the air traffic was for JFK and Laguardia you wouldn't want some amateur, armchair-expert citizen's group making the air controllers' jobs any more complicated by requesting "fanning" flight paths.

Posted by: traditionalmod at December 15, 2008 6:58 PM

Thanks a lot z! ;)

I just got stuck in that damn site for the last twenty minutes watching one black and white disaster after another.
(And we thought today's broadcaster's could occasionally have an evil gleam in their eyes while broadcasting some horrible news event or another. These guys sounded like excited circus barkers!)

Posted by: Nokilissa at December 15, 2008 7:27 PM

traditionalmod - well said. The email address for this group of yahoos manages to include both "artsy" and "yoga". I wager next month's rent that this person understands very little about the complexities of managing air traffic in one of the busiest areas of the world. (not that it stops him/her from trying to second guess the professionals from an armchair at the Tea Lounge)

This is competing with the group who wanted to produce biodiesel locally for Stupidest Idea of the Year.

Posted by: lechacal at December 15, 2008 7:35 PM

Lechacal wrote: "Back-to-the-wall busy with work Wasder, and traveling a lot... that and I've sort of decided to walk away from my apartment search for the next year or so. I stop by every few days or so, but haven't really had much to say."

Sounds like you made a good call to postpone the search. Hope your work is good and your holidays nice and that you stop by here some more.

Posted by: wasder at December 15, 2008 7:37 PM

NOP--I do the same thing with the "which side of the aisle to sit on" thing, at least with LaGuardia. When it takes the straight through the middle of Brooklyn route (the one that brings you over Prospect Park, I can usually find at least 4 apartments I have lived in (the actual buildings). I never get bored of that.

Posted by: wasder at December 15, 2008 7:38 PM

This thread is testament to how Brooklyn became California in 10 short years.

Good grief, this "new Brooklyn" just sucks...

Posted by: Prodigal_Son at December 15, 2008 7:41 PM

A fine whine.
Unless they rebuild the main north-south runway at LGA, there will always be planes nearby.
Just so fortunate, tunnel-viewers, that you don't live in Elmhurst or Astoria.
Find something else to rail against.
The loss of a child's hat.
A coffee house.
Stray electricity.
Coney Island.

Posted by: 5w30 at December 15, 2008 7:51 PM

Six Years and Counting;

I'm sorry to hear that. Maybe what I heard is that it was the deadliest civilian catastrophe up to that time. Anyway, I stand corrected.

Posted by: benson at December 15, 2008 8:28 PM

Z:

I checked out the video. Remarkable. Also note how down-at-the-heels Park Slope looks! (For the area's recent arrivals, it should be a real eye opener. There's nothing upper-middle class about the place!)

The accident was in 1960, even earlier than I remember. And it happened December 16! (How's that for coincidence?)

After Googling around I found an article that claims that the Park Slope preservation movement was kicked off by the tragedy. Apparently Robert Moses wanted to tear down what the piece describes as "the declining neighborhood" and replace it with a housing project, figuring that some of the demolition was already done! The community organized itself, resisted, and the rest is history.

And the little boy was actually from Illinois, about to meet his mother in New York. He lived because he was thrown into a snow bank, and neighbors raced to his aid. He spoke to them, concerned that his mother would be worried about him. He died the next day, at Methodist Hospital. He was eleven.

In two years it'll be the crash's fiftieth anniversary. Maybe it'll be appropriate for local brownstoners to gather, mark the event, and recognize the important influence it had on what they take for granted today.

NOP

Posted by: NOP at December 15, 2008 11:55 PM

My father made the unfortunate mistake of buying a coop in the Bronx, near Mosholu Pkway. 19th floor, right over the elevated #4 line, and the rail yards. Also right under the flight path. The building was a big X in cross section so sound bounced up. The roar of the planes was so bad we could hear each other speak until it passed. Then he went out an bought an antique that chimed very loudly every 15 minutes. I remember one wonderful evening- the #4 was coming into the station, they were pulling several more into the railyard, the plane was directly overhead and it was 12 midnight so he damn clock was clanging. Now THAT was noise.

sixtyyears and counting- what a terrible story. Ever since 9-11 I tend to look up a every plane with trepidation. I can only imagine how much worse it would be for you and for those who lived through the plane crash in Park Slope- or in Belle Harbor where a plane crashed after 9-11.

Posted by: bxgrl at December 16, 2008 12:02 AM

I saw Laurie Anderson perform right after 9-11. Her song "O Superman" took on a rather sinister tone:

Well, you don't know me,
but I know you.
And I've got a message
to give to you.
Here come the planes.

So you better get ready.
Ready to go.
You can come as you are,
but pay as you go.
Pay as you go.

And I said: OK.
Who is this really?

And the voice said:
This is the hand, the hand that takes.
This is the hand, the hand that takes.
This is the hand, the hand that takes.
Here come the planes.

They're American planes.
Made in America.
Smoking or non-smoking?

. . .

Posted by: SnarkSlope at December 16, 2008 12:14 AM

These idiots have no clue of what they are talking about. First of all you cannot just change flight patterns. Thier is a specific reason they fly over park slope and other locations. Planes must land into the wind, and other weather patterns call for specific routes. These morons know nothing of what they request and should do some research before they open thier mouths. Typical liberals with nothing to do.

Posted by: harrythehat at December 16, 2008 7:31 AM

Can we stop Harrythehat from playing with his home lobotomy set

Posted by: doldrums at December 16, 2008 10:19 AM

Thank you, Nokilissa. It's fine to express an opinion about air traffic, but why is it necessary to attack babies? How does this issue have anything to do with strollers? For god's sake, talk about having nothing better to do.

Posted by: Lesloaf at December 16, 2008 10:21 AM

One of their links says it all:

COMPLAIN

Seriously. Get a life. It's not 'all about you', Park Slope. Planes DO go over other neighborhoods.

Posted by: MAT at December 16, 2008 12:33 PM

Hey doldrums, how can you comment when I lobodomized u years ago.

Posted by: harrythehat at December 16, 2008 1:48 PM

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