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December 26, 2008

A Christmas Tale

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Christmas was going swimmingly until we decided to head out with the cousins and mother-in-law to Fort Greene Park around midday to get some air. We were at the top of the hill near the monument with three of the kids when we heard some barking and screaming. We ran down the hill towards the commotion, picking up a stick along the way. Turns out a man we'd seen earlier sitting on one of the tennis nets using the courts as his personal dog run for his two 100-pound pit bulls had decided to keep one of them off the leash as he walked through the park. Passing our four-year-old niece, mother-in-law and her Brittany Spaniel who were sitting on the bench near the big rock, one of the pits, the female off-the-leash one, went straight for the spaniel's neck. After we all jumped into the fray and managed to pry the pitbull off the spaniel's neck, the unapologetic owner took off towards the Willoughby exit. We followed while calling 911. The owner eventually got the both dogs on a leash. When we caught up and told him to wait there while the police came, he proceeded to take both dogs off the leash again and took off over the hill towards Myrtle Avenue. One dog—the one that had attacked—followed him; the other seemed lost and confused and lingered near the Willoughby entrance until the cops came a good 10-12 minutes later. The one moment of comic relief came when the cops were whistling through their PA system to try to keep the dog around the car until the van could show up to take the dog to the pound. We showed the cops these photos of the owner and they said it was not their job to go after him; instead, they said, Animal Control has their own cops that had to do it. When we got back to the house later and called 311, however, they said Animal Control would only arrest an owner whose dog had bitten a person. So now there's an irresponsible owner who lets his pit bull roam free and no branch of law enforcement will track him down. That makes a lot of sense. Ideas?

More photos on the jump...

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Comments

The owner looks like a homeless person. The only idea i could think of is get over it.

Posted by: sebb at December 26, 2008 9:21 AM

Was your spaniel OK??? Ridiculous story about the lack of action by the police.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at December 26, 2008 9:34 AM

the cops were right, they had better things to do than tend to the entitled many. the police is not us, for sure.

Posted by: cb6 at December 26, 2008 9:36 AM

what kind of a jackass lets a pitbull run around with out a leash? that's insane

Posted by: plgdude at December 26, 2008 9:46 AM

cb6, you, apparently, are as crazy as this dog owner.

Posted by: lowintheheights at December 26, 2008 9:50 AM

9:50: the dog owner is an idiot, but when you leave your house you're not guaranteed safety as shown. it can happen anywhere to anyone. i hope everyone ok.

Posted by: cb6 at December 26, 2008 9:57 AM

so if this guy had been wielding a knife instead of a deadly dog Brownstoner shouldn't have "wasted" the police's time either?

Posted by: lowintheheights at December 26, 2008 10:01 AM

you have a poor romantic view of justice. keep trying.

Posted by: cb6 at December 26, 2008 10:07 AM

Blame the parks commissioner, not the cops. It was Benepe's brilliant idea to allow unleashed dogs pretty much anywhere in city parks. According to Benepe's testimony at the Board of Health hearing for the rule changes, the Parks Enforcement Patrols would make sure that the new rules were followed to the letter. How often do you see the PEP officers enforcing leash laws? Better yet, how often do you ever see PEP officers in your park?! I grew up with and love dogs, unfortunately irresponsible, selfish fools can own them...worse yet, so can sociopaths. Until the media reports a child mauling by an unleashed dog in a city park, you may as well get used to these needless attacks. FYI - Dog against dog injuries in a park are strictly a civil matter.

Posted by: Fredrick at December 26, 2008 10:09 AM

Why do you think the guy looks homeless?

He looks pretty well put together to me. Navy coat, matching scarf, khaki's and black shoes or boots. That doesn't really say 'homeless' to me.

Posted by: cobblehiller at December 26, 2008 10:11 AM


I feel sorry for those dogs.

I bet the discombobulated one hadn't eaten anything and was starving.

Obviously, another reason it shouldn't have been taken off its leash.


Posted by: IronBalls at December 26, 2008 10:14 AM

I don't understand why you didn't capture the remaining dog, who wasn't the aggressive one? So it ended up going to the pound?

On the other hand, we were in the park around the same time yesterday and I'm not crazy about dogs attacking my toddler either. However, that has never happened.

I hope your dog is okay, and that sucks, but I am also thinking getting the police involved wasn't the right way to handle this.

Posted by: Heather at December 26, 2008 10:14 AM


Heather, were you the one smoking crack by the other tennis court?

What was Brownstoner supposed to do, take off his shirt and challenge that deranged lunatic to a fight, Brownstoner versus Bum?

That's crazy.

He did the right thing and might have stopped much worse from happening.

Posted by: IronBalls at December 26, 2008 10:19 AM

Wait, wait, wait a second here. Where does Brownstoner say this man was a 'deranged' 'homeless' or a 'lunatic' with two 'starving' dogs??

I think more is being read into this story than actually was stated.

I'm curious if the man said anything, and why he would just walk away like that - unless trying to get the dogs away was the really the best course of action.

Posted by: cobblehiller at December 26, 2008 10:26 AM

I don't think the guy looks deranged. Like an asshole? Probably. But not deranged. However, my biggest concern here is the sending of the other dog to the pound. Just seems sad is all. And I hope the Brittany is okay.

I once pried a pittbull's jaws off my chow's throat. My dog was fine, but I still have scars on my hands. The owner didn't offer to do a damn thing, or help me get her dog off mine. She just stood there. It happens. Never occurred to me to call the police.

Posted by: Heather at December 26, 2008 10:31 AM


Cobblehiller,

He "unleashed" them after being told it was illegal and dangerous and that the police had been called.

Who the hell behaves that way?

The only answer = a lunatic.

I agree that he's well dressed for a bum, and I don't see a shopping cart, but actions speak louder than words, don't they?

Posted by: IronBalls at December 26, 2008 10:32 AM

cobblehiller-
"Why do you think the guy looks homeless?"

Most white liberals see black men in parks and think homeless. Its a cultural thing.

Posted by: Prodigal_Son at December 26, 2008 10:33 AM


And what if the next time that dog wrapped it's jaws around a toddler's neck?

Would you still be bragging that you didn't call the police, Heather?

Posted by: IronBalls at December 26, 2008 10:34 AM

No offense meant, also, but one of the creepy things sometimes about this site is how quick everyone on it jumps on bandwagons like "crazy, homeless and deranged." What I see is an old black guy with two pitbulls. Nothing more and nothing less.

Like I said, he's an asshole for letting his dogs run free... but honestly, dog fights happen all the time. As it seems like no one was permanently injured, there's not much else to say here.

Posted by: Heather at December 26, 2008 10:34 AM

An onlooker said he was "an old guy from the neighborhood," said he thought he lived in the projects (as in, not homeless) and added some commentary that we won't print here that didn't give the impression we were dealing with a particularly level-headed person. He wouldn't engage in any kind of discussion and was obviously unwilling to take any responsibility or, as we requested, to have his dogs checked (at the time we did not know whether our mother-in-law's dog had been bitten or whether any people had been bitten in the melee). the park ranger said he was a regular and expressed her frustration at people disobeying leash laws.

Posted by: brownstoner at December 26, 2008 10:34 AM

Not much else to say? Except perhaps next time this happens, the poor victim - whether dog or small child - may not be so lucky. Mind-numbingly selfish and insane behavior.

Sorry for your experience Stoner. You did exactly the right thing. Wish the cops actually did something.

Posted by: Johnny at December 26, 2008 10:38 AM


If the guy were white or asian, he'd still be a lunatic and I'd still assume he was a bum.

His skin color is about as important as the brand of loafers that he's wearing.

Posted by: IronBalls at December 26, 2008 10:40 AM

It certainly is sad that the dog he abandoned, and that ended up at the pound, was not the one who did the biting. We made sure the cops taking him in knew that. One of the onlookers noted to us afterwards that both dogs had numerous scars all over them. Also very sad.

Posted by: brownstoner at December 26, 2008 10:40 AM

1. Pit bulls are nice dogs.
2. There are no bad pit bulls, only bad owners.

1+2 = nice Christmas fairy tale.


Frederick, PEP only harasses dog owners with non-threatening breeds that look like they have money to pay the fines. They don't bother kids (or adults) with fighting aggressive breeds that actually attack dogs or people. That would be too dangerous.

Posted by: denton at December 26, 2008 10:42 AM

Well, the guy sounds 'cracked', and it is crazy to have a dog off the leash in the city, especially near other dogs or children. I'm very sorry it happened.

But I have to say it is interesting listening to other people impressions and responses.

Posted by: cobblehiller at December 26, 2008 10:55 AM

Are you people insane? This is a pit bull. It can kill a grown person in seconds.

I find it absolutely ridiculous that anyone thinks we're supposed to just put up with dog attacks.

Posted by: lookin fer stuff at December 26, 2008 10:57 AM

I don't think the man is homeless but obviously a little off his rocker. Who would let a pitbull run around without a leash? Obviously one of the dogs is prone to attacking b/c he went for the neck of the spaniel - thank god it wasn't your niece!

Posted by: gemini10 at December 26, 2008 10:58 AM

Denton you likely know nothing about dogs - a trait shared by many here.

1. Attacking another dog - does not "foretell" attacks on children or people. Pitbulls have been bred to fight OTHER DOGS - and NOT ATTACK PEOPLE. Therefore it is relatively common for a Pitbull to not be dog friendly - and it is UNCOMMON for Pitbulls to attack people.

Yet Pitbulls will attack people sometimes - why? - well look at the morons (including the guy here) who "own" them. Their inherent strength and toughness (against other dogs) - encourages morons to get them - bred them - encourage all the wrong behaviors - and then abandon them (since many of the idiots who get them are totally irresponsible anyway).

Look at the dogs in the picture - not fixed (got to make sure we have more abandoned Pitbulls), clipped ears, apparently not well trained -> Do you think these dogs were taught proper behavior to animals or people????

I venture to say if you looked at a large % of Pitbull owners (the people who buy/breed) and did a comparison of the outcomes of their children vs. their dogs - the children will prove to be more unstable, more dangerous, and more damaged then the dogs.

all this a long way of saying - its generally not the breed - its the people.

Posted by: fsrg at December 26, 2008 11:10 AM

Brownstoner:

One scary Christmas story.

Years ago, while walking through the South of Market Area (SOMA) in San Francisco -- these were the bad old days -- there was a grey-haired guy with a couple of snarling pit bulls approaching me on an underpass. I quickly crossed the street, but then decided to do a little sociological investigation.

At a safe distance, I followed the group and watched it travel through some pretty rough blocks. They guy stopped at a corner store (with the dogs) and reversed course with his grocery bag. Every now and then, when approaching groups of men hanging around empty lots, he'd pull on his dogs' leashes, making them bark and snap.

That's when I figured he had them for his own protection. That may be the case of the owner here -- a single man of a certain age, feeling vulnerable to attack in "bad old" Fort Greene.

No excuse for letting them run around to go after pets and people, although that may one way he feels he can claim space for himself. Fort Greene may have improved since the days he got the dogs, but the fringes, from what I understand, are still pretty tough places.

You did the right thing. But if he's "an old guy from the neighborhood" he may have experiences that help him rationalize his behavior. And that the City doesn't have a reasonable park/leash policy "enables" him.

Nostalgic on Park Avenue

Posted by: NOP at December 26, 2008 11:13 AM

Pitbulls are not any more likely to bite or attack human than any other breed. Less likely than many breeds. They CAN be dog aggressive, which is why a responsible pit bull owner keeps their dog on a leash when in a public area with random dogs around. It saddens me that another lazy owner has allowed this to happen and we get a story about rampaging pit bulls. Heather is right, dog fights do occur all the time between all kinds of dogs, but as a pit bull owner you have to take extra responsibility so that this won't happen. Rotts, Dobermans, etc. - there is always a fashionable "hard dog", and right now it is the pit bull. A dog so known for its loyalty and gentleness that it was once known as the nanny dog. It is precisely their eagerness to please humans that allows them to be taken advantage of and trained to fight.

Posted by: mshook at December 26, 2008 11:13 AM

fsrq, your child/dog comparison is really spot on, and one I had not thought of before.

Posted by: mshook at December 26, 2008 11:15 AM

The man is a EDP.

Posted by: sebb at December 26, 2008 11:40 AM

EDP?

Posted by: cobblehiller at December 26, 2008 11:44 AM

only on brownstoner could a story about a dog attack become a story about race and gentrification. Of course Brownstoner's experience with a dog in the park is just a codified parable about white supremacy played out in the property market. Of course it is.


Posted by: jamesdoran at December 26, 2008 12:01 PM

That sucks Brownstoner. You have to go to the ASPCA and report this incident. Give them a description and pictures and the time of day this happened. If you see the guy again follow him and see where he lives to make sure they are aware of his address. If you have that info then they can start a dog fighting investigation and they will watch the residence and eventually get him and remove the dogs.

Also go talk to your community affairs officers and tell them you are concerned about this and ask them to do something. Then, make sure you go to the police community board meetings and ask them what has been accomplished each month during the public meetings. It would be better if you go see them w/ your block association. It's their job to address community concerns such as this.

You can also call 311 every time you see him w/ his dogs off leash - be persistent.

Lastly, you can get your local council person involved and/or the community board. Hope this helps.

Posted by: Yoursmine at December 26, 2008 12:11 PM

yoursmine: YOU are amazing

Posted by: jamesdoran at December 26, 2008 12:15 PM

I agree with FSRQ and I also noticed that the dogs were not neutered. I can't believe this guy actually just left his dog behind to be picked up by the pound. The dog will be put to sleep within 48 hours if he's not adopted or claimed. It doesn't matter that he wasn't the one that bit the Spaniel.

Dogs cannot be off leash in city parks between the hours of 9am-9pm. Other times are ok in most parks.

I can't see other dog walkers putting up with this if it happens all the time. They would run him out of the park. I would try to reach out to them and see if they know anything about him. You would see them there before 9am, like most law abiding dog walkers or you can try: http://www.fortgreenepups.org

How is the Spaniel? I don't see where it says if he/she was harmed or not.

Ya know, a happy ending to this Christmas Tale would be if you went to the shelter and saved the "nicer" Pit. Just sayin'.

Posted by: rh at December 26, 2008 12:23 PM

Two things i like to point out.

This is the only post for today, so consider it an Open Thread. We'll be back online again Monday. Have a great Christmas!

I thought you was not posting anything until Monday.

Brownstoner: This Blog is for the restoration of Brownstones.

Now we have after Christmas: A Christmas Tale

You you see why I have hatred and disgust for you Brownstoner. The poor little white dog being attacked by the big bad black Pitbulls, Awwwwwww.

I wonder why the owner of those Pits was silent? Maybe there is more to this story, Brownstoner.

A nice Race/Class Covert story for this holiday season! Lets get those hits up and inflame more hatred between Black and White people. The sad thing is we only got one side of the story and I wish those Pits went for you!

Oh BTW I'm not going back and forth on this crap and 2009 is days away.... Oh wee!

The What

Someday this war is gonna end...

Posted by: Return of The What at December 26, 2008 12:35 PM

First of all those aren't Pitbulls, they are Neapolitan Mastiffs. The are generally very well tempered. Nothing like pit bulls.

You say that the dog went straight for the Brittany Spaniel's neck. I guarantee you that if a pit did get a hold of the the dog's neck it wouldn't be walking away. Second, I doubt you would have been able to pry a locked pitbull's hold.

Savage pitbulls on the loose in FG Park makes for a good headline, but is far from the truth. The reality is that dogs get bitten by other dogs in the park all the time. Sorry to here about the in law's dog being bitten, but this type of incident is far more common than you'd imagine.

Do you honestly think it's the police's job to track the perp down? Is that an efficient way of allocating our resources?

Now if a person was bitten it would be a different story.

Posted by: la di da di at December 26, 2008 12:54 PM

Mshook said:
"Pitbulls are not any more likely to bite or attack human than any other breed. Less likely than many breeds."

BTW, where is pitbull Rob today?

There was a long article in the New Yorker not too long ago about pits. I'm surprised no one has quoted it yet. The article made the same claim, and in fact stated that dachshunds are sixteen times more likely to bite humans than pits.

The funniest thing was next week in the letters. A writer said he'd rather be bit sixteen times by a dachshund than once by a pit bull.

1. There are no bad dogs, only bad owners.
2. Guns don't kill, people do.

Posted by: denton at December 26, 2008 12:56 PM

If the cops did find the guy what were they supposed to do? You can only issue a summons for a dog off the leash, if you personally observe it. If the guy says, that's not my dog, but a stray that I was trying to rescue, can you prove it isn't? As far as I know, there is no summons you can issue dogs for fighting each other (yeah, I know, the mastiff started it, but if you ask the owner, what is he going to say? It's not like Spaniels have never started fights, growing up, the most protective dog I ever had was a cocker who would bite you for looking at him sideways). Rh brought up a good point, I doubt that this guy, who seems very comfortable in the park has had many problems, or the other dog walkers would have run him off long ago.
You can't have it both ways, civil liberties, probable cause, etc. or police state. Yeah it sucks when you're on the receiving end, but it's still way better than the alternatives. As far as all the hysteria? It's a dog spat. Geeze people, get over it

Posted by: Bond at December 26, 2008 1:17 PM

LOL, white people are funny. while you are a renter and you see a black person living next to you who owns their brownstone you call them homeless people because they are black.

Posted by: momo284 at December 26, 2008 1:50 PM

those aren't pit bulls. those are probably cane corsos. this is why the "pit bull" debate is ridic.

Posted by: claudegueux at December 26, 2008 2:03 PM

Mr B we are very sorry to hear this and hope your dog is okay. We were just our @ the park for quick run earlier today and it was really quite empty and peaceful.
This dog owner is either an absolute idiot or a sociopath. We don't think he is homeless at all just a mean old scum with zero morals. Mr B handled it appropriately but personally it wouldn't have been wrong to teach him a little lesson. Sorry folks but some morons just don't learn the civil way.

jamesdoron are you being serious with that comment? "Of course Brownstoner's experience with a dog in the park is just a codified parable about white supremacy played out in the property market. Of course it is."

NOP you are an inspiring guy always finding the positive in every negative. Thanks for that story for you may very well be right but we doubt it since this vermin unleashed the other dog after the initial attack.

Posted by: pierre de taille at December 26, 2008 3:17 PM

Actually claude - there LIKELY Pit Bulls - real Cane Corsos are rare and really expensive - so probability says Pit (not to say that someone didnt sell the dog as a Corso) - and there is no way to tell from these pictures if the dogs are Corsos or Pits as Pits come in so many shapes and sizes that distinguishing them from a (similar looking Cane Corso) is impossible in this case.

And there not Neapolitan Mastiffs - since they dont have the loose skin.

Posted by: fsrg at December 26, 2008 3:21 PM

These dogs are definitely not Pitbulls. Mastiff or Cane Corso/Mix(Not Pit).

The gentlemen used to regularly take the dogs to the park, late evenings(10-12 pm). He's not part of the doggie possie that hangs out on the main lawn. He usually walked the loop from the tennis park to the hospital, around to the Myrtle side, past the bathroom, down past the benches, to the rock and back to the tennis courts.

While walking my dog, I had a chance to speak with him and he is nice softspoken gentlemen. There is also a younger man who sometimes walks the dogs and he is more out going. According to him, they're cane corso/mastiff mixes.

Anyway, they've got to be at least 6-8 years old and are at the end of the lifespan. Being put down may not be the worst this for this dog.

Posted by: la di da di at December 26, 2008 3:46 PM

"Vermin," according to Pierre de Taille (3.17pm).

"Nice softspoken gentleman," according to La Di Da Di (3.46pm).

Put two Brooklynites in a room and be prepared to have an argument!

NOP

Posted by: NOP at December 26, 2008 4:05 PM

NOP this guy maybe soft spoken but his behavior today says nothing nice or gentlemanly. Could you imagine unleashing his Pitbulls after one of them already attacked another dog...dommage non?

Posted by: pierre de taille at December 26, 2008 6:26 PM

Really sad about the dog being taken to the pound. Are there centers to rehabilitate a dog like that, I wonder? Did the old guy even try to help you take his dog off your spaniel? What was his reaction?

Posted by: iz at December 26, 2008 6:56 PM

Dogs are not supposed to be offleash in Ft. Greene Park at any time between 9 am until 9 pm. Additionally, dogs are NEVER supposed to be in the tennis court.

The responding cops should have known this guy was breaking the law because he was offleash during off hours.

Fort Greene PUPS http://www.fortgreenepups.org/ is an organization founded to educate our community about making our park a safe place for dogs and people. (This month the group raised nearly a thousand dollars to donate to local pet shelters.) Visit their website for an explanation of the laws as they should be enforced.

This guy's huge dogs (they look too big to be Pitbulls. Maybe they were something else?) had no business being offleash while the other dogs weren't, and even during offleash hours a responsible dog owner with poorly behaved dogs should NEVER leave his or her dog offleash around dogs which are leashed. Dogs are quick to take advantage of a perceived power advantage - at best they're curious and at worst the dog at either end can become agressive.

Posted by: Stonergut at December 26, 2008 7:35 PM

The dogs are pitbulls. The man is a brainless asshole. What's the next question?


Posted by: Inigo at December 26, 2008 8:55 PM

That is a shocking story. Although pitbulls were bred for their powerful jaws and ability to use them, they won't be vicious unless there is a combination of the following factors: they are unneutered, abused, starving, socialized to be around human beings or other animals or actively trained to attack. In other words, it's not the breed, it's the owner. Anyone who could have done such a thing with those dogs is dangerous. And I believe that there is something terribly wrong with law enforcement if that kind of behavior is allowed to happen unchecked. How many times I have seen some pathetic human being dragging a pitbull, hitting it, kicking it, turning it into the equivalent of an automatic weapon when let free. And that is the point after all. To terrorize others. I truly hope your spaniel is OK and I think that whatever loopholes there are preventing the enforcement of leash laws should be addressed in a more formal way. Good luck Brownstoner and go for it.

Posted by: donatella at December 26, 2008 10:50 PM

There are always going to be dogs with the potential to harm, and there will always be idiots who own them. That said, it doesnt make sense that you can buy a pitbull and you cant buy a ferret. Check out what the Health Department said when they upheld their ban on ferrets in 1999 and compare it to pitbulls or other aggressive dogs.

"Ferrets are known for their unpredictable behavior, and they are prone to vicious, unprovoked attacks on humans. Ferret attacks reported nationwide over time have become notorious for their severity and capriciousness, causing serious injuries to some infants and young children in particular... In New York City's multiple dwelling residences, which are not natural habitats of ferrets, a ferret could crawl through holes in walls or travel along risers or ducts to other apartments, with potentially tragic consequences for the neighbor of a ferret owner."
-New York City Department of Health, Office of External Affairs Press Release #36

Posted by: slick at December 27, 2008 1:46 AM

I really think you should make an effort to stop the other -- blameless -- dog from being put to sleep. It was sent to the Brooklyn CACC?

Posted by: Heather at December 27, 2008 8:40 AM

Things that aren't relevant: this man's socio economic status and your random pop culture "knowledge" about pit bulls. Those aren't pit bulls, bra.

If I had the evil heart to train vicious and aggressive dogs I'd choose golden retrievers or yellow labs. If these animals appeared in a post like this I bet my toyota that the words "pit bull" would come up in the comment section at least thrice.

but hey, if over-simplification works for you, go with it. it definitely works for people who think all arabs are terrorists.


Posted by: claudegueux at December 27, 2008 9:28 AM

Things that aren't relevant: this man's socio economic status and your random pop culture "knowledge" about pit bulls. Those aren't pit bulls, bra.

If I had the evil heart to train vicious and aggressive dogs I'd choose golden retrievers or yellow labs. If these animals appeared in a post like this I bet my toyota that the words "pit bull" would come up in the comment section at least thrice.


Posted by: claudegueux at December 27, 2008 9:28 AM

What's this BS about Pit Bulls attacking dogs and not attacking humans? Google for stats and there are pages of results of news reports of attacks on humans by pit bulls over the last few years. It would be one thing if dog attacks on humans were equally committed by other breeds, then maybe you could say it's "rare", but the CDC lists the pit bull as responsible for the majority of attacks on both humans and dogs, by far. And it's not like attacks on dogs is okay! It's awful when that occurs. The other dog is most often not killed right away. It lays there bleeding in pain and suffering. Disgusting. It's like these Pit Bull fans believe other dogs are inferior and deserve what they get simply for getting in the way. Getting "yippy" as they'll often say derisively about other dogs, blaming the victim. Funny me, I call that lack of remorse and concern sociopathic. A normal, well behaved dog should be psychologically capable of handling some little dog getting "yippy" or simply passing close by. Only a total psycho would get set off by that.

Posted by: traditionalmod at December 27, 2008 11:19 AM

Cobblehiller

EDP is cop talk - Emotionally Disturbed Person.

Posted by: Chaka at December 27, 2008 1:40 PM

Those are neither Cane Corsos (BTW, "Cane" is Italian and pronounced "KAH-nay"; not rhyming with 'Spain') nor are they Neopolitans; they look most like Presa Canarios or Canary Island Mastiffs to me.

I am no Pit Bull apologist, but I think it's important to look at the facts from every angle. Pit Bulls were bred for animal aggression. Not guarding, not hunting, not herding. ANIMAL AGGRESSION. This is the hallmark of the pit bull's temperament and should not be seen as a fault in it's character. If you had a Labrador that didn't swim or a Collie that didn't herd it would be uncharacteristic of the breed. Same goes for Pit Bulls - the 'pit' in their name refers to fighting pits.
SO- these dogs have a naturally increased prey instinct and incredibly strong jaws. That coupled with their tremendous tenacity makes for a difficult 'pet' - ALL dogs fight and every dog owner knows that. When a pit bull fights it's usually with greater consequences than when, say, dachshunds do.
It is because of their need to work with their handlers in the fighting ring that Pits are generally NOT aggressive toward humans. However, as I mentioned before, they have a naturally high prey drive and can be incited to chase and bite.
The news media is more likely to report these stories, as 'Child Bitten By Yorkshire Terrier' doesn't make for very sensational news. But believe me, I'd suspect as many kids are bitten by Shi Tzus as are pit bulls. Also, keep in mind that pit bulls probably are in the genetic makeup of 75% of the dogs adopted out of city shelters; they are tremendously popular pets.

Presa Canarios are native dogs of the Canary Islands. In fact 'Canary' refers not to birds, but to canines-dogs. They were prized for their strength and aggression in the fighting ring, dog fighting being incredibly popular in Spain in the 1800's. They are by no means dogs for the inexperienced dog handler.
CAne Corsos, on the other hand, have become so popular (the post that claims they're rare is only half right; they have been recreated as a breed and, although rarely adhering to any sort of standard, are increasingly common) that their temperament has been softened to the point that they are rarely that formidible. Like any powerful dog, however, they should be extensively socialized and handled wisely.

The police are unfortunately completely impotent in these matters. There is little they can or will do to protect your animal from negligent and irresponsible dogs owners. Nor will they protect your animal from negligent and careless citizens, a lesson I learned when my dog was hit by a car.

Posted by: houseowax at December 27, 2008 4:39 PM

"But believe me, I'd suspect as many kids are bitten by Shi Tzus as are pit bulls."

I hear what you are saying but how many of those Shitzu attacks result in a kid getting a body part ripped off or worse. If a shitzu bit off someone's ear or arm, I am certain that we'd hear about it on the 6 o'clock news.

Posted by: Chaka at December 27, 2008 6:24 PM

owning a pit bull should be illegal. they are dangerous animals. they appeal to the most violent and anti-social fringe elements of our society. these people could buy a Lab and train it to be vicious, but it would be more work. pit bulls are born vicious.

Posted by: Inigo at December 27, 2008 7:32 PM

"I hear what you are saying but how many of those Shitzu attacks result in a kid getting a body part ripped off or worse"

Without question, Chaka. I fully agree. But for stats to claim that a higher percentage of attacks are made by pits vs other breeds is misleading for just that reason. Attacks made by Cocker Spaniels probably aren't reported because they often don't require a hospital visit. Let's say we take a cross section of 1000 Pit owners and 1000 Cocker Spaniel owners. Are there more Pit Bull attacks than Cocker Spaniel attacks? I couldn't say for certain, but I would doubt it. Unless, of course, we're discussing attacks on other animals- then I think I can say with authority that the Pit's number would be MUCH higher.

"owning a pit bull should be illegal."

This thinking makes me nervous. I myself have owned several breeds that are commonly considered dangerous ( a Rottweiler, a Siberian Husky, and a Mastiff). I have never- repeat NEVER- had an aggression issue with any of them, they were all gentle and docile animals. If the state were to suddenly tell me that my beloved family pet posed a risk to the public and needed to be surrendered (and then what? Euthanized?)..well, that's a slippery slope.

"they are dangerous animals. they appeal to the most violent and anti-social fringe elements of our society. these people could buy a Lab and train it to be vicious, but it would be more work. pit bulls are born vicious."

Again, this is only HALF true.
Pit Bulls are incredibly common her in NYC. I know quite a few and let my dogs play regularly with them on a daily basis. While it's true that the breed was developed for strength, agility and animal aggression, many of the dogs we see in the streets and identify as 'pits' display little of these characteristics and would likely be worthless as fighting dogs. Temperament DOES vary within the breed. I suspect the man in question has done precious little to socialize his dogs with other dogs, but I likewise doubt he's trained them to be vicious. Dogs, if kept in isolation from other dogs, are more than likely to become suspicious or afraid of them and act out aggressively toward them when confronted.

The old maxim 'there are no bad dogs, only bad owners' needs clarification. To make it seem as if every attack on another animal takes place because the dog's owner somehow trained and/or his dog to do so is, in my opinion, erroneous.In many cases, the owners only fault is not recognizing that his animal is not fit to be trusted in the public arena, and THAT is what makes the owners 'bad'.

Lastly, let's not vilify the animals. Dogs, in their various forms, shapes,and temperaments exist solely because of man's intervention. Almost every pure breed out there exists because mankind selectively eugenically bred them for a certain trait or traits. One need not blame a pit bull for animal aggression any more than one would blame a pug for sitting in his owner's lap. The owner should understand his responsibilities and know his animal before taking it into a situation where he lacks absolute control.

Posted by: houseowax at December 27, 2008 8:21 PM

Just chiming in to say that these dogs are most definitely *not* pit bulls, I think they are mastiffs. I also wanted to say that if they are the dogs I think they are, they have played well with my dog in the past.

It also looks like the Springer walked away from the scuffle, which makes me think that this is a typical "dog aggression" incident, which is a lot like most intra-human aggression: lots of fury, signifying nothing.

Posted by: vanburenproud at December 27, 2008 9:28 PM

Oh, and if these dogs were pit bulls, then it would definitely be important to support houseofwax and others in firmly stating that there is a serious difference between intra-dog aggression and aggression toward humans, and that pit bulls have been or are bred to fight other dogs to the death while retaining a delightful demeanor toward humans.

So it should not be surprising that a pit bull would tear another dog apart

(not that the spaniel was torn apart in this scenario, or that these dogs are even pit bulls)

and at the same time not pose a threat to your young niece, even if she consistently laid upon and pummeled and wrong-rubbed the hypothetical pit bull in question.

They're amazing dogs that way. Real pit bulls. Not that these dogs are pit bulls, and not that a young child was even involved.

Posted by: vanburenproud at December 27, 2008 9:33 PM

Frankly, the notion that the black guy with the two dogs story becomes, immediately, a story about various "identities" is really fascinating--First, the man with the dog--is he homeless or a homeowner? Or, to go back to the typical Brownstoner dichotomy: owner/renter? Then, his mental status: sane/crazy? And let's not forget the dogs: Pit Bulls/other breeds?

Of course, race is relevant, because in a story about a "gentrifying" neighborhood full of anxious, class-climbing people with rapidly declining in value Brownstones that they bought hoping that most of the blacks in the neighborhood would leave sooner rather than later, or, at the very least, magically and instantly transform into people who share their values to a "T,"--well-nearly every story takes on elements of this race/class/property struggle.

The insistent denial of this, and the desire to say some "people" are just "bad" often fuels discussions on this board, which is why it is such a parody of itself.

Heather's simple initial comment put it best--and the point is that this kind of instant, hateful judgment is what the "Brownstoner" zeitgeist is all too often about. Please, people, try to see the humor and absurdity in your contradictory desires for upward mobility in neighborhoods full of--yes--projects--and gasp--homeless people.

And if you can't see the humor, or the humanity--or realize that these "Brownstone" neighborhoods were not empty when you came--

Then please--move to Scarsdale. Sooner rather than later.


Posted by: folledontjesuis at December 28, 2008 11:10 AM

Amen, folledontjesuis. Really well said.

Posted by: vanburenproud at December 29, 2008 8:02 AM

As usual this is getting ridiculous. This thread went in directions it never should have. First of all I am sorry to hear your dog was attacked. The responsibility is of the owner who knows his dog is capable of attacking. The dog is doing what it's been trained to do or instinctively knows to do.
That said: my dog was attacked by a pit who wa prompted by hi owner to "get her". we were just walking through the park, during off leash hours. I also called the police. hen they came I was told that because my dog is considered property there was nothing they could do. Had the dog bitten me or gone after me then I could file a harrassment charge against the owner. The police tried to get me to change my story to say that the dog went after me but I had a hard time lying. Eventually I said the dag ran toward me and I wa afraid. It was only then did they write something about harrassment but not to the owner of the other dog because he was long gone...
It is scarey and infuriating to see your dog in the mouth of another dog and the owner acting like it's your dogs fault. You would hope those owners who have dogs that they know are capable of attacking other dogs would be more responsible in their hadnling of their dogs.
Again I'm sorry your dog was attacked.

Posted by: oohlala at December 29, 2008 9:30 AM

totally late to the party. just read this:

owning a pit bull should be illegal. they are dangerous animals. they appeal to the most violent and anti-social fringe elements of our society. these people could buy a Lab and train it to be vicious, but it would be more work. pit bulls are born vicious.

oh really, you dont say. well hide your wallet cuz i love my pitbull and he is fer SURE not mine to be violent and i far from an anti social fringe element of society (well hmm i dont know ha).

sorry mr. b about the incident. that does suck.

i am a firm firm believer that dogs should be on leashes in cities and all public space at all times, unless it's a partitioned dog run.

i've posted on this site before the few run ins ive had with stupid dog owners who do not keep their dogs on their leash. i dont care how nice and friendly your dog is, if it runs up to a dog and it's not on a leash there is potential for damage to either and both dogs.

if i had to do it over, i do not think i would pick a pitbull as a pet again because of the bad rep they get. but i have the dog i have now and he's my best friend. you crazies who think he should be put down and me in jail because of your 'ghetto fantasized' notions of what pitbulls and their owners are like need to just step off and go coddle muffy and jizzabell.

*rob*

Posted by: PitbullNYC at December 29, 2008 12:50 PM

My pitbull is a loving and playful goofball. I got a pit because a friend of mine has one and she is the most mellow and loving dog I have ever met. I also wanted to "rescue" a dog that truly needed rescuing; what has happened to pit bulls, and the number of them put to sleep every single day, breaks my heart. In total contravention of pit bull lore, when my pit did get in a fight with another dog (which was obviously my fault, not hers), she had the dog by the neck for a good few (terrifying) minutes. When we separated them, there was not a single mark on the other dog. Pit bulls can learn about bite threshold too. She has never ever displayed any agression to our cats. Squirrels are another matter. As a responsible owner, I do not let her off leash around dogs she doesn't know, and I constantly monitor her behaviour. Traditionalalmond, this is responsible behaviour for ALL dog owners, whether they own a "yippy" terrier, or a larger, more powerful dog. Small dog owners need to prevent their dogs from issuing threats and challenges as well as we large dog owners.

Posted by: mshook at December 29, 2008 2:18 PM

The ASPCA Humane Law Enforcement has this in their FAQs:

"Q: My neighbor does not keep his dog restrained. His dog attacked my dog while we were out for a walk. Can he be arrested for animal cruelty or assault?
A: Under New York State law, the neighbor cannot be arrested for animal cruelty, animal fighting, or assault unless he or she instigated, ordered, or provoked the attack. In cases where this occurs, contact the NYPD to make a report.

Nevertheless, it is a violation of the New York City Health Code for an owner to allow his or her dog to be off-leash in a public place. When an unrestrained dog attacks another animal, the owner of the injured animal should contact the New York City Health Department. The Health Department is responsible for enforcing the provisions of the Health Code, which include "leash laws" and the regulation and/or management of "dangerous dogs." In addition, all animal bites must be reported to the Health Department at 311."

And, no, those dogs in the photos are not Pit Bulls.

Posted by: iheartbk at December 29, 2008 4:20 PM

We may never know this fellow's true back story, or whether the dog that went for the spaniel was typically vicious. But one part of this story speaks volumes -- in order to escape potential responsibility (which turned out to be negligible anyway) the guy actually abandoned one of the dogs. Whether it was because of mental illness or just callousness, this person should NOT BE A DOG OWNER. (Leading one to not unreasonably speculate that the dogs were not well cared for and therefore more likely to be dangerous.)

Regarding off-leash allowances, this troubling story has no relevance. This guy was clearly breaking the rules (off-leash is NEVER allowed on footpaths). He would have been doing this even if there was no off-leash policy. BTW, there's a guy in my neighborhood who actually walks around on the sidewalk with a couple of pit pulls off leash. He seems to have them under control (when he's paying attention) but I feel pretty uncomfortable walking my Napoleonic-complex 30-pounder anywhere near them.

Posted by: supersleuth at December 29, 2008 5:47 PM

I'm a little late to the party too, however as the owner of a large dog who doesn't always take kindly to other dogs on the street I have to say, if this dog was out to actually *hurt* the other dog, the whole scenario would have been over in the blink of an eye and it wouldn't have ended well.
That being said, dog-directed aggression and people-directed aggression are COMPLETELY different. My dog is the image of family dog. She has never even gives a cross *look* to a person. *Any* person. But I am very careful with her on the street with other dogs. She has actually grabbed a smaller dog and pinned it to the ground. If she was vicious and wanted to hurt the dog, shes 160lbs, the dog would be hurt. She has some bad manners and i have been working patiently for years to soften her brattiness. I call it "brattiness" because shes never actually hurt another dog. But the owners freak out so I am super diligent.
And btw, she HAS gotten better. I still would never trust her off leash or in a dog run but shes much much better than when I rescued her.
So this mess about "all (insert bad dog of the year) should be put down" is absolute nonsense.
Mr. B sorry about the Brittany. I hope its ok.

Posted by: landry at December 30, 2008 4:31 PM

The other dog is up for adoption at NYCCACC:

http://nycacc.org/adoptionsearch.htm

She's at the Brooklyn location and they call her Kim.

I feel so bad for her, since none of this is her fault. I hope someone that can care for her adopts her before she is euthanized.

Posted by: iheartbk at January 2, 2009 1:30 PM

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