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November 14, 2008

Horror Show Friday

horror-show-friday-1101408.jpg
Maybe developers should be required to attend an architectural appreciation course before being allowed to file a new building application with DOB.
$299000 LOVELY INEXPENSIVE CONDO Midwood Street [Craigslist]
$850000 2BR.2BATH.DUPLEX Sheepshead Bay [Craigslist]
$419000 NICE 3 FAMILY NEW CONSTUCTION Crown Heights [Craigslist]




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Comments

i thought about this the other day.. they look crappy yeah, but they will definitely not look as crappy in a couple of years. even the new big glass condos that look so bad at first, the ones put up just a few years ago sort of look a lot better now for some reason. maybe you just get used to it? but they also take in the city's dirt and energy.. tho at least those balconies are NORMAL SIZE!


-rob

Posted by: PitbullNYC at November 14, 2008 11:24 AM

Yeah, forget mortgage class for borrowers. Stage props (not as in property).

Posted by: DOW8000SP800 at November 14, 2008 11:25 AM

My eyes! The goggles do nothing!

That middle one is spectacular.

Posted by: cwbuecheler at November 14, 2008 11:25 AM

That Sheepshead Bay thing looks like something out of Eastern Europe.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at November 14, 2008 11:26 AM

Perhaps its ther fault of craigslist that these things get built. New chapter for Freakonomics.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at November 14, 2008 11:28 AM

These buildings are the architectural equivalent of transfat. Let's get rid of them.

Posted by: mopar at November 14, 2008 11:32 AM

ah craigslist. what one can find on there. right dave?

Posted by: winthropst at November 14, 2008 11:33 AM

my favorite new B'stoner feature - Thank you!

Posted by: bowl of dicks at November 14, 2008 11:38 AM

I like this new feature on Brownstoner!!!
And today I thought I was going to be posting about racoons.

Posted by: bayridgegirl at November 14, 2008 11:43 AM

The middle one looks like one of those old hotels down at the Jersey Shore. All it needs are wasted guidos strewn all over the balconies to make it complete.

I also love copy in the listing..."Built like a fortress"!

Posted by: TownhouseLady at November 14, 2008 11:43 AM

btw, the first horror show is Midwood Street (PLG / Crown Heights?) not Midwood the neighborhood.

Posted by: Bklnite at November 14, 2008 11:44 AM

"wasted guidos" that should kick some life into this thread. Looks more like you'd see scantily clad Tatyana hanging off the balcony with a red light on.

But this stuff is right up your alley THL.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at November 14, 2008 11:47 AM

THL, YES! that is what i was thinking. that middle one is SOOOO friggin the beach at belmar nj and sandy hook! i do love the ridiculous architecture of the jersey shore tho.

-rob

Posted by: PitbullNYC at November 14, 2008 11:49 AM

It does need some Budweiser or Ed Hardy towels hanging over the railing

Posted by: TownhouseLady at November 14, 2008 11:51 AM

to make it complete.

(Sorry, I prematurely E*post*ulated)

Posted by: TownhouseLady at November 14, 2008 11:52 AM

I can see where this one is going. Happy Friday, all!

The Sheepshead Bay house in the middle sets the fugly bar. The others can only strive to reach that high (low!). The horror, the horror.

Come to think of it, why can't they set horror movies in messterpieces like this? Since the house is usually burned down, imploded, sinks into Hell, etc, instead of sacrificing a beautiful, but troubled Queen Anne, how about one of these? I know having to spend a night in the middle house would certainly scare me to death.

Posted by: Montrose Morris at November 14, 2008 11:58 AM

'Reduced 3 family new construction brick, 3/3/2, tree lined block, private driveway. Needs work. reduced price.'
- Crown Heights 3-Family Listing

New Construction & Needs Work in the same sentence.

Posted by: bayridgegirl at November 14, 2008 12:03 PM

On the middle one, how did they get away with the extra wall jutting out like that? Wouldn't it cast a shadow over the adjacent building? The stairs appear to be located in the center of the building and protrudes through the roof. It's exposed to all the northern elements making it high maintenance and conducive to accidents.

Posted by: Magilla Monsoon at November 14, 2008 12:04 PM

sheepshead bay: did anyone look at the interior and floor plan? OMG, vile!!!!

Posted by: bowl of dicks at November 14, 2008 12:10 PM

The commentary on this site continues to sink in caliber.

It's good to see that Brownstoner is feeding red meat to the crowd to keep the number of clicks up. Really a bunch of "diverse" viewpoints above.

Posted by: benson at November 14, 2008 12:15 PM

re: midwood st - i'd get some ivy to cover every square inch on the exterior that isn't a door or window. that would soften the blow of the cinderblocks or whatever the hell it is.

Posted by: winthropst at November 14, 2008 12:24 PM

"The commentary on this site continues to sink in caliber."

It's starting to me of high school. A long time ago.

Posted by: East New York at November 14, 2008 12:25 PM

Benson and East New York revealed:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/55/StatlerandWaldorf.JPG

Posted by: TownhouseLady at November 14, 2008 12:38 PM

Aw come on. Goodness knows I'm as serious and earnest as they come, but once in a while, frivolity needs to reign. We spend time and effort espousing our causes and positions on such heavy issues as the economy, housing, schools and politics, so trashing some truly bad architecture is harmless.

I could do without the ethnic references, but this stuff is fair game. Especially the middle one. The other two, which are the same style, are just unneccessary mediocrity, and should not be the templates for new construction in Brooklyn. Developers have to do better. If ridicule helps them along, then so be it. I don't see it as a class issue, or picking on "affordable housing". I couldn't afford one of these, myself. As countless people have pointed out, "affordable" shouldn't have to equal ugly.

Posted by: Montrose Morris at November 14, 2008 12:39 PM

Back to say, obviously the two end photos are not the same houses, one has a bay, the other pseudo Palladian windows. They still came from the same template of mediocrity.

Same entryways, though.

Posted by: Montrose Morris at November 14, 2008 12:41 PM

'The commentary on this site continues to sink in caliber.

It's good to see that Brownstoner is feeding red meat to the crowd to keep the number of clicks up. Really a bunch of "diverse" viewpoints above.'

Is this diverse enough?
These houses while well built, display the greatest details of architecture. They exhibit unprecedented use of exotic materials. Form follows function is clearly displayed in these homes. The juxtaposition between the streetscape and buildings are creating a flow and continuity. These homes will be marveled for centuries. They will be studied for their elegant but yet subtle magnificence.

Also, Benson, there's a thread about construction costs, I didn't see a post on there from you. You might want to dispense some compelling opinions there. It'll give some validity to this site.

Posted by: bayridgegirl at November 14, 2008 12:50 PM

I agree with MM -- it's Friday afternoon. Time to relax a bit.

Also, there are many things on which Brownstoner users disagree, and have well-reasoned debates on, but I think you'd have a hard time finding too many people who appreciate Brownstone Brooklyn (the core audience of this site), who are going to be fans of any of these three buildings.

In other words, not real surprising that there's little dissent in this thread.

Posted by: cwbuecheler at November 14, 2008 12:51 PM

"http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/55/StatlerandWaldorf.JPG"

Hmmmm, I kinda pictured DIBS and myself in those roles.

Posted by: SnarkSlope at November 14, 2008 12:53 PM

The one in the middle, is that a diving board on the roof? Is that the new widow's walk...suicide perch?

Posted by: DeLepp at November 14, 2008 12:57 PM

can we please please please revisit these in 6 months to see if anyone actually bought them? pretty please with sugar on top?

Posted by: funkymonkey at November 14, 2008 1:08 PM

'can we please please please revisit these in 6 months to see if anyone actually bought them?'

can we please please please revisit these in 6 months to see if they're still standing?

Posted by: bayridgegirl at November 14, 2008 1:20 PM

Unfortunately, the answer will be yes they will be standing.

Posted by: bayridgegirl at November 14, 2008 1:20 PM

It is the future...nobody is building brownstones.

Posted by: bmfesq at November 14, 2008 1:24 PM

The middle one is kind of like a Trojan soldier. There's a shield on the left held out to keep the irate neighbor next door at bay and the Trojan helmet thingy (diving board) on top.

Posted by: Magilla Monsoon at November 14, 2008 2:02 PM


"Benson and East New York revealed"

Oh, you want to go there?

THL revealed:

http://content8.flixster.com/photo/10/94/80/10948042_tml.jpg

Hmm...maybe you guys are right. That was fun.

Posted by: East New York at November 14, 2008 2:14 PM


And this feature is in no way based on Fedder's Fridays?
http://www.newyorkshitty.com/?cat=33

Seriously: Miss Shitty has this topic covered twice over. Maybe you could bring her in as a Federtecture Expert stringer?

Posted by: amanda at November 14, 2008 2:16 PM

Montrose;

I'll respond to you, because you are a serious person (in the true sense of that word).

-I don't begrudge some frivolity once in a while. My remark regarding the caliber of the commentary on this site was a general one - not directed at this particular thread. I'm sure you have seen some of the recent threads. I think East NY was being kind in his assessment. I'd say that they remind me more of my grammer school days.

-Regarding this thread: there is more than a tinge of class superiority in the commentary. Wow: what a keen insight everyone has here: this is not great architecture!!! How about that??? Who knew??

What could be the reason that so many of these spot builders, operating in areas as different as Sheepshead Bay, Midwood and Crown Heights, all serve up this "crap"? Oh yes, the other brilliant insight: they are "evil" developers who don't care about anything but the bottom line. Even though they are competitors, they conspire together and somehow they manage to put a gun to people's head and convince them to buy this stuff.

Please.

How about this as an alternative explanation: the developers build these homes because there is a market for them. Believe it or not, there are people who have other concerns in life beside buying a home that will merit a "thumbs up" from the Brownstoner crowd. They want a parking spot for their home, they want a private entrance and they want a terrace. Believe it or not, they want air-conditioning, and since they can't afford central air - they'll take a home with a "Fedders" duct (The horror!!! The humanity!!!!) These types of homes have been built for the past 30-40 years in the moderate-income sections of Brooklyn.

Why doesn't everyone take this to the limit? Why not set up a tour in conjunction with Brownstoner,something along the lines of "Let's go see how the trash live".

Posted by: benson at November 14, 2008 2:30 PM

See ENY it feels good to laugh a bit! Seriously though who is that? Is it a TV character or something?

Posted by: TownhouseLady at November 14, 2008 2:36 PM

THL...that's Ruth Buzzy on Laugh In

Snark...are you that old????

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at November 14, 2008 3:06 PM

Montrose,
I’m going to respond to you, can you please pass this onto Benson (ala grammar school crush).

Please tell him that, that BRG things there are very serious and well opined discussions on brownstoner. Many topics are discussed in detail by well informed individuals. Sure there are topics that veer off, but it is blog, it’s susceptible to all forms of postings. If he’d like a purely factual display of information, please tell him to get a subscription to Architectural Record.

Also, please let him know that BRG thinks developers have no motive other than to build ‘something’ and make a profit. If that wasn’t the case, why would they build? Why would they build this?

Montrose, please tell him that BRG noticed he claims these homes have been built in ‘moderate-income sections of Brooklyn’, but yet are offered at obscene prices. 850K for a 2-bed, 2-bath is not a moderate price for ‘moderate income’ individuals.

Also, please let him know that I think these comments have no bearing on class superiority. You don’t need to be in the upper echelons of society to SEE what is aesthetically unpleasing. Ugly is ugly, even to a blind person.

Yes, Montrose, I wonder why these homes aren’t featured on house tours that are so touted across Brooklyn?

Posted by: bayridgegirl at November 14, 2008 3:08 PM

MM - I hope you have a sense of humor about my above post...if not so sorry, but seems like every friday, I'm going to get into an aesthetic issue with Benny

Posted by: bayridgegirl at November 14, 2008 3:09 PM


"Is it a TV character or something?"

C'mon, it's you. Don't even act like you don't look like that!

Yes, THL, I agree it's fun to laugh. I like to laugh. But I don't need to come to Brownstoner for laughs. There are plenty out there in the REAL world. I laugh fairly frequently with my colleagues, co-workers and friends outside of the anonymous world of cyberspace.

Mostly, I come to Brownstoner to learn. But that's been compromised lately by posters focused on other things. Since I don't care enough to complain, I've just not come here as often.

I couldn't agree more with benson. Everyone here makes the same jokes about these properties, which I agree look pretty bad compared with the elegant Victorian homes of Brownstone Brooklyn (one of which I myself own).

But I'd bet a million bucks that if any one of you were, say, a recently homeless person who had somehow gotten their life together, or someone who had fallen on hard times and just needed a place to live, these places would look absolutely beautiful. I know they would to me were I in a similar situation.

Furthermore, as benson says, the developers built these places for one reason: there's a market for them. Some posters here should realize that not every home in NYC is destined to be a landmark-worthy Victorian brownstone. Class superiority indeed. You guys basically sound like a bunch of jerks.

Posted by: East New York at November 14, 2008 3:15 PM

Benson, a great majority of these homes are built in "my" communities for my people, other people of color, and immigrants of all types. All definitely "other" for most of the Brownstoner crowd.

All the more reason for me to complain and ask for better. I don't think that we have to settle for dreck. I don't have a car usually, so I don't get around to the far reaches of BS, or Bushwick, East Flatbush, and I hardly ever go to Carnarsie, Sheepshead Bay or Bay Ridge. I know these houses have sprung up like mushrooms all over working class communities. I'm glad for the housing. We definitely need it. I've only ever been in one, and I found the ceilings too low, the rooms too small, and the finishings really cheap.

Most of these houses sell for close to $750K in some places, and for that much, I want better than no detail rooms with hollow core doors. I'd want better lighting than the four pack of dome lights with plastic "glass" covers. Maybe some new buyers, new immigrant families, etc, are happy with that, but that's not enough. Maybe that is way better than what they had in the old country, or in their previous rentals, but that doesn't make it good. I have the nerve to be pissed for them, because they are getting a bill of goods that would not be good enough for the developer if he was paying the same amount, and would not be good enough if he was putting his family or kids in the houses.

Middle income housing in the old days, I'm thinking of the 30's era, and later, row houses in Crown Heights, or Queens, or even the small houses in the North Bronx and East Flatbush, East NY, or Bay Ridge, were built better than these, and most importantly, were built so that owners had a pride of place. You could plant flowers under the window, here you have utility meters. You had a piece of lawn, here we have a parking spot. Now we stack 3 apartments in every building, but they jam them into squat rowhouses.

Your friend Polemicist's rant about density is not even really addressed here. If one is going to build apartments stacked on top of each other, why not raise the ceilings a foot, and give these houses room to breath, and not look like they came out of a compactor. If the rowhouse model is so desireable, why do so very few of these look like the rowhouses they are intermingled with? What's up with the pink and gold bricks? The fake mullions, Palladian windows, and the useless balconies?

Take a look at the development off Fulton St, near S Oxford, near Hanson Place. Those houses are successful and well kept because they are contextural, attractive, landscaped, and well designed. They used brick colored bricks, and other contextural materials. I remember when those were built. They still look good twenty years later, which I can't say for some of the Fedders in other parts of Brooklyn. These were built specifically as affordable housing, but were built with care and forethought. There are also some in Harlem which are different in style, but still look great in the context of their environment. Ditto for some on the fringes of East NY and Crown Heights. It can be done. I think potential buyers would snap these up much faster than a pink or yellow brick monstrosity.

For me, it's not a matter of going around to laugh at the locals. I think they deserve better.

Posted by: Montrose Morris at November 14, 2008 3:23 PM

Bklnite,

Fortunately this Midwood Street dreck is not in PLG [or Crown Heights, for that matter]. Midwood St. is quite long. This gem, which is about a mile east of my house and 1/2 mile from the eastern [NY Ave.] boundary of PLG is in East Flatbush/Wingate, between Albany & Troy Avenues.

Posted by: Bob Marvin at November 14, 2008 3:25 PM

"Snark...are you that old????"

A psychic told me that I have an old (and cantankerous) soul.

Posted by: SnarkSlope at November 14, 2008 3:35 PM

Every time someone uses the term "other" in a sentence, God kills a kitten.


Posted by: Polemicist at November 14, 2008 4:15 PM

I should do a re-write:
Polemicst is the other idiot.

Meeeoooow!

Posted by: bayridgegirl at November 14, 2008 5:14 PM

I love that cut off turret thing on the Crown Heights one!

But come one...all my wife's Russian friends would love that Sheepshead Bay place!

Posted by: nybk01 at November 14, 2008 5:54 PM

Maybe it's just me.... but do I see a little bit of Gaudi in these?

Posted by: Legion at November 14, 2008 6:19 PM

Montrose;

Let's start with some common ground. There is no doubt that the rowhouses built in the 20's (not the 30's, I would argue) are better-built and aesthetically more pleasing. Prior to my present condo, I lived in a two-family rowhouse in Gravesend, and it was a simple but graceful home.

I would ask that you recognize that these 1920 homes, as well as the Brownstones were ALL built by the private market, at a time when there was far less regulation than today. Polemecist tried to point this out recently, and for reasons I don't understand, you went ballistic on him. The point he was trying to make, which you didn't appreciate, is that the private market produced high-grade homes on a grand scale - something the public sector will never be able to do. If you want a return to high standards, handcuffing or cursing out the private sector is not the answer.

Why then, can't the same thing be done today? That's a good question that deserves debate. As you know, I've tried to point out some of the reasons in past posts. I know the homes of which you speak on Fulton Street, but I do not factor them in. Why? Because they were built with heavy subsidies.

May I suggest one possible other factor: there has been a general decline in some of our standards and common culture. You talk about pride of place, but I wonder if folks have much pride in general, and that cuts across all classes. A simple example: my father was a sanitation worker, yet I do remember this: whenever he went to Mass on Sunday morning, or out for dinner with my mom, he was dressed in a better manner than most CEO's today, and he made sure that we were dressed well too. Ever see how the fans dressed for a 1920 Yankee game - do you want to compare that to today?

I also know this: running a weekly column of fedder homes so that some folks can engage in a snarkfest to demonstrate that they have superior taste to the "greedy" developers or the great unwashed who buy these homes is not helpful, nor adds any understanding to the matter.

Have a good weekend. I'm sure we'll be debating some more.

By the way, I think I can say two more things with certainty:

-I won't be invited to the next Brownstoner poster party!

-Brownstoner will never feature me in the QOTD. He and Lisa are thin-skinned.

Posted by: benson at November 14, 2008 7:54 PM

Benson-

I hear ya too...but this site is for those with more of a traditionalist/old school taste to Architecture, and thus your opinion above will be not accepted by a majority of the people here. Im gutting a Victorian in Bay Ridge and turning it into a Spanish Colonial Revival...to most people here it will be called a McMansion and it would not be accepted.

Posted by: nybk01 at November 15, 2008 8:12 AM

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