Dolkart Down on Prospects for "Fringe Areas"

We were excited to read the interview in The Times last weekend with Andrew Dolkart, a man who has probably done more work to preserve historic Brooklyn neighborhoods than just about anyone in recent years. This segment from the Columbia University professor of historic preservation really jumped out at us:

I was doing a project recently in Clinton Hill, in Brooklyn, and I wandered east into what was always a fringe area, an industrial area between Clinton Hill and Bedford-Stuyvesant. People were building luxury apartment houses! And I was thinking, even then, a couple of years ago, why would I spend a million dollars to live on the corner of Quincy and Franklin Streets, which is basically in the middle of nowhere? It’s not really in a neighborhood at all. I think buildings like that are going to suffer. Their developers invested in areas where people are not going to be so likely to spend that much money.

The location he discusses is just a block or so from here.
Skyline’s Forecast: Only Partly Cloudy [NY Times]

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If developers in Brooklyn had any clue they would be hounding the MTA and the city to restore G train service and sufficiently connect it to the major hubs. It would open up tons of real estate development potential. And too bad the MTA is composed of idiots.

Posted by: werner at November 19, 2008 11:24 AM

It's a pretty valid point. You see these luxury condos going up in places that have no subway access, no local retail, and nothing around them but warehouses. I've always wondered who's interested in paying exorbitant prices to live in them, and it seems even more unlikely given current conditions, where it's a much more dangerous bet that those areas are going to be built up with retail and such anytime soon.

Posted by: cwbuecheler at November 19, 2008 11:33 AM

I greatly admire Andrew Dolkart. He was one of the most influential voices in the NY preservation community, in regards to protecting and preserving Bed Stuy, PLG and Crown Heights, way back when. At the time he wrote the intial survey on Crown Heights North, in 1976, the Manhattan-centric Landmarks Preservation Commission was not particularly interested in the mostly African-American neighborhoods of Central Brooklyn. His study on CHN, and I think he also wrote the Stuy Hts study, was responsible for the landmarking of both areas, albeit 25 years apart. I've thought about getting a masters in historic preservation at Columbia, and his chairmanship there was a factor in my choice. (Unfortunately, those plans are on hold now.)

Anyway, he knows what he is talking about. I think some of the developers who built lux buildings in the area he is speaking of overestimated the market, and jumped the gun by leaps and bounds. Housing is definitely needed in that area, for both a new demographic, as well as the current demographic, but neigher of those markets are luxury markets.

Interesting to note, "fringe" doomsayers, he said high end new construction in these areas will suffer, not the entire housing market. Yes, people are going to go where they can afford, areas that have more amentities, which makes sense, especially for new construction afficiandos. He also said that there will still be demand for older houses, row houses in stable areas. That, to me, means Clinton Hill, PLG, most of Bed Stuy and most of Crown Heights. Prices will go down, as they should anyway, but these areas will still draw people in.

Posted by: Montrose Morris at November 19, 2008 11:50 AM

MM - While as a buyer I'm hoping that row-house prices do drop, I'm not expecting them to fall by record numbers or anything, especially not in the areas I'd really like to live, like North Slope, Carrol Gardens or Clinton Hill. Still, I think some areas that were/are in the process of developing a vibrant retail and night-life scene, like Vanderbilt Ave in Prospect Heights and its surroundings, may see some substantial price cuts.

Basically: Park Slope is probably gonna stay Park Slope -- babies, boutiques, and bistros -- but those of us willing to be patient and shop carefully might be able to find some deals, in some nice neighborhoods, rather than having to plunk down $800k to live in a condo in the middle of a bunch of warehouses.

Posted by: cwbuecheler at November 19, 2008 12:14 PM

you know, park slope doesn't really have great subway access, yet somehow people continue to survive. personally i don't see quincy & franklin as the middle of nowhere. it's not that far from the subway (okay, the C), i lived near there for many years; friends of mine still live there. it's not the middle of nowhere to the people who live there.

anyway, to his point of luxury condos in desolate areas, i'm all for it! who better to live in no-mans land but the affluent, who not only can afford sparklin new condos, but also probably have cars and the means to go out and get the groceries, or freshdirect, or vases or whatever rich people go out to buy. let's build some luxury hi-rises in the Flatlands. put in underground parking and rake it in!

Posted by: Jimmy Legs at November 19, 2008 12:35 PM

quote:
you know, park slope doesn't really have great subway access, yet somehow people continue to survive. personally i don't see quincy & franklin as the middle of nowhere. it's not that far from the subway (okay, the C), i lived near there for many years; friends of mine still live there. it's not the middle of nowhere to the people who live there.

but you're not going to get mugged, beaten, or stabbed walking to those subway stops.

-r

Posted by: PitbullNYC at November 19, 2008 1:38 PM

Also, while it's true that Center and South Slope are largely tied to the F, North Slope has pretty excellent subway access. I live on 7th at Union and I'm a not-terrible walk from the B,Q,M,R,2,3, and F. Compared to when I used to live on 88th and 1st in Manhattan, it's fantastic.

Posted by: cwbuecheler at November 19, 2008 2:04 PM

No, but according to you Pitbull you may be mobbed by unruly teenagers. Obviously the streetscape and scenery walking from GAP into Park Slope is prettier/safer than that into the Bed-Stuy/CH borderland, but that wasn't the point being made. And of course there was a time when Park Slope was much more dangerous than it is now.

Posted by: Putnamdenizen at November 19, 2008 2:07 PM

I hear there have been many muggings in Park Slope.

C. W. Buecheler, aren't you interested in Fort Greene?! You left us out! It has great transportation access, the park, the farmers' market, lots of restaurants and food stores.

Posted by: BrooklynGreene at November 19, 2008 2:20 PM

BrooklynGreene - No offense intended. Fort Greene has many lovely blocks that I would happily live on, including one that a friend of mine simply calls "The Beautiful Street" (I think it's S. Oxford but not sure).

Honestly, I am a little blurry on the exact boundary between FG and CH. Looks like roughly the eastern edge of the park?

Posted by: cwbuecheler at November 19, 2008 2:34 PM

Vanderbilt Avenue, I think? Is the cut-off.

Posted by: Heather at November 19, 2008 3:14 PM

buecheler - I'm sure you'll be able to get a small brick townhouse in the streets btw hoyt and bond and even smith and hoyt for substantially less than 1mill v. soon, since at their peak they were barely past 1 mill. I'm assuming the one I bought for 1.1 will go down to 600k.

Posted by: gkw at November 19, 2008 5:23 PM

"It’s not really in a neighborhood at all."

Thank goodness people who think that are not moving in any more.

Posted by: harriet at November 20, 2008 1:24 AM

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November 19, 2008

Dolkart Down on Prospects for "Fringe Areas"

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