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November 15, 2008
Notorious Crackhouse at 474 Greene Avenue Up In Flames

Sad and disturbing news this morning from Bedford Stuyvesant. The beautiful brownstone at 474 Greene Avenue between Bedford and Nostrand was gutted by a fire in the early morning hours today, the result of a raucous all-night party gone terribly wrong. According to an email we received from a block resident, who fell asleep finally at 4:30 a.m. only to be awakened by the sound of shattering glass at 6:15 am., the building "is a well known crack house that has been in operation for at least 3 years." A group of neighbors has been trying to work with community leaders, the NYPD and DA Charles Hynes for much of that time to no avail. There have been daily calls to the NYPD but concerned residents "have been told repeatedly that it is near impossible to shut down." The photo, at right, from Property Shark, shows the house pre-fire with windows and doors covered in sheets to keep out unwanted eyes. "Clearly we are all in immediate danger when people are living without electricity, using candles and making crack and NO ONE in the NYC system can close down the house," writes the tipster. "That fire was big and we were all in danger this morning." We've seen the same thing on the corner of Grand and Putnam where law enforcement officials know what's going on but are hamstrung by laws that make it close to impossible to arrest and successfully convict members of the drug trade. GMAP P*Shark

Update: Here are a couple of photos from a few minutes ago. Send more photos or comments to brownstoner@brownstoner.com.

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Our block, as beautiful as it is, is notorious and widely known as a major distribution hub. It has been disappointing to work with narcotics, only to be told that the DA's office in Brooklyn is reluctant to use laws to put pressure on the landlords, who in many instances (at least on our block) directly support the trade. I've watched ten years of narcotic busts and have never ceased to be amazed at how they set up shop the next day.
Heard the fire engines this morning. No idea it had gotten so out of control.
Posted by: GreeneAveGuy at November 15, 2008 12:43 PM
It will be on Corcoran in a couple weeks as a fixer with good bones and lots of preserved detail for $699K
Posted by: williamsburgguy at November 15, 2008 12:54 PM
What a shame...crack is still a real proplem. Where the hell is it all coming from?
Before I moved here I always thought of the NYC police department as being quite aggressive but it seems the law actually hinders them in some way. In Australia the police would be free to do what I'm sure the police here would like to do.
Posted by: Aussie at November 15, 2008 1:07 PM
Does anyone know if anyone was hurt? Did the residents and/or party-ers, make it out alive? It must have been awful to watch.
I'm always struck by the variety of design and beauty of the houses in BedStuy.
Posted by: cobblehiller at November 15, 2008 1:22 PM
Looks like Divine Intervention! The windows are beautiful.
Posted by: bkbutterfly at November 15, 2008 3:27 PM
Three alarm fire makes way for glorious new condo development.
Posted by: bohuma at November 15, 2008 3:38 PM
Greene Av is such a nice block. It's about time this property will get an owner who care about the hood. The corner of Greene & Bedford is finally nicer with new retail. Change is on the way.......YES WE CAN!
Posted by: bk8 at November 15, 2008 3:46 PM
Dammit, where am i supposed to buy my crack now, this is a horrible loss to the neighborhood.
Posted by: Xander Crews at November 15, 2008 3:59 PM
"near impossible to shut down" my ass. I guarantee you that if it was going on in Sutton Place or even the tonier blocks of Park Slope (i.e. rich-white-people neighborhoods) there'd be something done about it tout de suite. It's just another example of the cops' "couldn't give a damn" attitude as exemplified by the seemingly endless anecdotes from crime victims in minority neighborhoods being told by the police, "what do you expect, living around here?"
Posted by: johnife at November 15, 2008 5:02 PM
There's a lot of truth to that tout de suite comparison. It's been more than a bit ironic living on this block and watching all the unfortunaate fireworks over the years while police cars race to the 79th (for this reason, the block association was told, we could not have traffic calming measures on Greene Avenue) one block away.
Posted by: GreeneAveGuy at November 15, 2008 5:29 PM
There's a lot of truth to that tout de suite comparison. It's been more than a bit ironic living on this block and watching all the unfortunate fireworks over the years while police cars race to the 79th (for this reason, the block association was told, we could not have traffic calming measures on Greene Avenue) one block away.
Posted by: GreeneAveGuy at November 15, 2008 5:30 PM
There's a few different factors at work here. One is that the police blotter shows numerous arrests at that location. Once an arrest is made and the courts get it, it's out of the cops hands. As GreneAveGuy points out, arrests have been made.
Another big part of the reason why it wouldn't happen in Park Slope is that there is no "stop snitching","If you see a cop, Warna Brother", "snitches get stitches" etc. For better or worse, some people seem on the fence about who they hate more, drug dealers or cops, so things like this go on.
The people in the neighborhood who want to see things like this stop in many cases are outnumbered by haters, apathetic individuals, or people who are afraid, so the status quo keeps on keeping on.
Posted by: Bond at November 15, 2008 6:10 PM
no more crack house
Posted by: BrooklynLove at November 15, 2008 7:02 PM
Estate ready, hip area, lots of edgy cafes and boutiques nearby.
995,000
Posted by: Prodigal_Son at November 15, 2008 7:27 PM
You all don't really think that there aren't drug operations in tonier areas, do you? The drig trade continues unabted in all neighborhoods, with varying degrees of obviousness dependent on the wallets of the users. Although I join my neighbors in trying to move drug sales from my block (and recently I have had to ask a number of people to "move it along"), the drug trade will never be ended. Never. Trying to end it through police action is futile. Futile. Hasn't two generations of the failed "war on drugs" shown that? All we can do is move its most obvious vending places from one location to another.
Millions have been lost, both lives and dollars. Can we try something else, please? This ain't working.
Posted by: Putnamdenizen at November 15, 2008 7:47 PM
This is the thesis of why I rant!!!!
Cognitive dissonance
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance
Cognitive dissonance is an uncomfortable feeling caused by holding two contradictory ideas simultaneously. The "ideas" or "cognitions" in question may include attitudes and beliefs, and also the awareness of one's behavior. The theory of cognitive dissonance proposes that people have a motivational drive to reduce dissonance by changing their attitudes, beliefs, and behaviors, or by justifying or rationalizing their attitudes, beliefs, and behaviors.[1] Cognitive dissonance theory is one of the most influential and extensively studied theories in social psychology
Dissonance normally occurs when a person perceives a logical inconsistency among his or her cognitions. This happens when one idea implies the opposite of another. For example, a belief in animal rights could be interpreted as inconsistent with eating meat or wearing fur. Noticing the contradiction would lead to dissonance, which could be experienced as anxiety, guilt, shame, anger, embarrassment, stress, and other negative emotional states. When people's ideas are consistent with each other, they are in a state of harmony or consonance. If cognitions are unrelated, they are categorized as irrelevant to each other and do not lead to dissonance.
A powerful cause of dissonance is when an idea conflicts with a fundamental element of the self-concept, such as "I am a good person" or "I made the right decision." This can lead to rationalization when a person is presented with evidence of a bad choice. It can also lead to confirmation bias, the denial of disconfirming evidence, and other ego defense mechanisms.
If you want a nice and safe neighborhood then move to one. Pay the expense of that neighborhood instead on moving to the Ghetto and whining why they are selling drugs and doing crime!
Bed Stuy is not Park Slope......
The What (Next Week The Piper Kills everyone in the room..)
Someday this war is gonna end....
Posted by: Return of The What at November 15, 2008 9:05 PM
You gotta be kidding me. As if there are no attendant benefits in living in a community that wrestles with real struggle as opposed to financial assets.
Let's start another thread, What, and place head-to-head the affective benefits of living among people who are earning a check for a living (or an hourly). Can't imagine what you do to spend so much time forecasting doom and gloom that's rather predictable in the first place.
And then these endless cuts & pastes about cognitive dissonance. Why don't you save them for your Park Slope shrink and all the other fortuitous hunter-and-gatherers in your prime neck of the woods.
I actually lived there in the eightees, seems like you have a rather short-termed real estate philosophy. The granola set had to do their share of holding the local cops accountable before enfant terribles like yourself could prosper.
Let us do the work you weren't made to do.
Posted by: GreeneAveGuy at November 15, 2008 10:37 PM
I'm ready to buy it! $699K?
Posted by: bk8 at November 16, 2008 8:20 AM
when I lived in raleigh there was a house a block from the college campus that was a well know crack house. I had some friends that lived next door and a crazy guy with a screwdriver broke into all their cars.
as far as I know nothing was done about it.
Posted by: Santa at November 16, 2008 11:43 AM
Thank you greenaveguy. Additionally, What, your perspective is extremely elitest for a guy who generally seems to be pro normal-Brooklynite-non-"asshats". Don't people who can't afford to live in more affluent areas deserve the protection of the law? It's not a secret that police work harder for whiter, more moneyed areas.
Even so I wonder about the entire criminalization of drug-usage and selling. Legalization would add control to the equation and reduce the violence. I don't mean to say that this is a simple problem. I imagine studies have been done on places where this is legal, but I'd love to see the discussion happen in this country.
Posted by: Susan Elkins at November 16, 2008 2:42 PM
Actually Susan, I have to disagree. Most cops that I know, and I know quite a few, agree. Lazy, slacker cops go to good areas. The ones who want to really be cops gravitate towards the tougher areas, which tend to have less money. The cops in the tougher areas tend to really care, but it's not a profession that you wear your heart on your sleeve, so they mask it with a shell of cynicism. But as far as working harder, any cop will tell you that you work a lot more in the 75 than you do in the 19th.
Posted by: Bond at November 16, 2008 3:07 PM
As I have learned from this blog, all you slopers smoke pot, which is conveniently delivered to your doorsteps. I think it's wrong to assume you can separate the elements of the drug trade you find convenient, while condemning the ones you do not.
Posted by: Heather at November 16, 2008 3:09 PM
Heather:
"As I have learned from this blog, all you slopers smoke pot, which is conveniently delivered to your doorsteps. I think it's wrong to assume you can separate the elements of the drug trade you find convenient, while condemning the ones you do not."
Ridiculous argument. Believe me, if pot culture went hand in hand with gun culture, I'd have a huge issue with it. Guns and violence are not "elements" I can tolerate. I could give a crap if my neighbors smoke crack, meth or infant harp seals. Bring guns and ghetto bullshit to my block I have a problem.
Posted by: Prodigal_Son at November 16, 2008 3:54 PM
Heather's point is germane. It is reasonable to ask why it is that some people can buy and sell drugs among their friends behind closed doors for lifetimes with no violence, while other kinds of drug trafficking ruins neighborhoods and kills young men.
Posted by: vanburenproud at November 16, 2008 4:00 PM
This is truly sad....beautiful building and yes a very nice block. I absolutely agree with Bond....this so called stop snitching attitude has to stop....I really don't care I will call the cops in a heart beat against drug dealers...when i see cops i feel alot safer, It is a shame that our own people plague our communities with drugs it is a shame that I a black woman feel weirded out by too many brother hanging out on the corner. I have nothing against cops, but I HATE drug dealers , to me they are the cancers of society.
Posted by: mysideofstuy at November 16, 2008 5:31 PM
It is quite simple vanburenproud. When you are standing on a corner or working a spot you need to protect yourself, your money and your product from those who might try to rob you so you get a gun. When you deliver your wares door to door, no one but your clients will know what you have on you and you don't have to deal in cash. No need for a firearm. You'd never be able to make these types of dealers because they don't wear gold fronts or pants hanging off of their behinds. Don't sleep though, there are hipsters in skinny jeans and PS Stroller moms slinging dope and smoking it too! There is also someone on your block, someone in your co-op building, a co-worker in your law firm and someone reading this who uses illegal drugs. You may not catch them with a crack pipe or see tracks on their arms because they are more than likely on prescription drugs and you'd never find them in the trap. These upper crust addicts do not have to rob or steal or go on the stroll turning tricks to support their habit because they have a little disposal income but they do live in every single Brownstone neighborhood. They do not end up in the criminal justice system. When they've had enough, they go to rehab either self-paid or using their health insurance and get clean.
Posted by: Just Wondering at November 16, 2008 5:52 PM
yeah keep dreaming bk8
Posted by: buckfast at November 16, 2008 7:53 PM
at least it was a good party
Posted by: 11211 at November 16, 2008 8:29 PM
Lets sprinkle some crack on him and get out of here
Posted by: YahwehOrTheHighway at November 16, 2008 11:41 PM
"We've seen the same thing on the corner of Grand and Putnam..."
Which house is it on Grand and Putnam? My family and I are about to move there. Thanks.
Posted by: ryanfh at November 17, 2008 8:09 AM
Have they returned and set up shop yet??
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at November 17, 2008 8:16 AM
ryanfh--as I understand it its not a particular house per se but the corner in general.
Posted by: wasder at November 17, 2008 8:18 AM
Ms. Elkins, the naivety that comes forth in the first paragraph of your post is just sad. Moreso when contrasted with the level headedness of your second paragraph.
Posted by: dittoburg at November 17, 2008 8:18 AM
Pursuing the "crime will abate if its made legal" argument is at best unrealistic. WhatI'd like to call it is not printable. Besides, we're talking about a crack house here, not a marijuana garden in someone's yard.
I don't understand the "hands are tied" approach of the police and the DA. If there's a credible tip then get a warrant and bust the place.
If this is occcurring large scale on your block you may want to investigate how to go about getting the Feds involved if the local precinct is ineffective.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at November 17, 2008 8:26 AM
was anyone hurt?
amazing that everyone's mourning the loss of historic architectural detail.
Posted by: bebklyn at November 17, 2008 9:13 AM
credible tip - thats the problem isn't it Dave? Suspicious activity, "that's a dealer's house", strange comings and goings - none of that is sufficient grounds.
Posted by: dittoburg at November 17, 2008 9:17 AM
bebklyn...please post the block where you live so that those crack house occupants who were not hurt can take up residence on your street.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at November 17, 2008 9:18 AM
I'm in the Slope on pricey, up-market Lincoln Pl. between 6th & 7th & we had a crack house here that took over 5 years to eradicate even though we had a super-cop living on the block! The laws that are friendly to tenants make it incredibly difficult for law enforcement to act. The only way our house was shut down was when the house finally was sold to a new owner.
Posted by: Arkady at November 17, 2008 9:19 AM
ditto...If Guiliani were still in charge it would be!!!!
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at November 17, 2008 9:20 AM
John Ife said this earlier on the thread and it's worth repeating:
" "near impossible to shut down" my ass. I guarantee you that if it was going on in Sutton Place or even the tonier blocks of Park Slope (i.e. rich-white-people neighborhoods) there'd be something done about it tout de suite. It's just another example of the cops' "couldn't give a damn" attitude as exemplified by the seemingly endless anecdotes from crime victims in minority neighborhoods being told by the police, "what do you expect, living around here?" "
That's exactly what I was going to say too, but Ife said it better. That's an outright lie from the city that they couldn't shut the place down. They are fully equipped legally to take care of these situations. It's TOTALLY about the neighborhood and how that relates to the cops' perception of what is acceptable in that neighborhood, and how important it is to them. To the NYPD, Brooklyn is so much better than it used to be they think we should just shut up and put up with everything. I've absolutely seen that attitude in Brooklyn cops when I had another kind of complaint. It's really unacceptable.
Posted by: traditionalmod at November 17, 2008 9:34 AM
If you are planning to make an offer on the building, Property Shark shows multiple Lis Pendens on the property.
Lis Pendens filed
2/23/2007
Judgement Expires 2/23/2010
Book Lis Pendens
Document Type Appoint Conservator
Index number 100290/06
Debtor Joan Taylor
Creditor Egglestonverna
Doesn't Verna Eggleston work for Bloomberg?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verna_Eggleston
Posted by: IMBY at November 17, 2008 10:00 AM
I can't be the only one one who might see a bit of collusion between the dealers and the cops?
There is a -prime- Cobble Hill block where blatant dealing goes on day and night. The reason the cops don't do anything? Its an "old school" family that have been there since the 70s. A family member has direct ties to the 76th precinct.
You don't have to go to the ghetto to find drug houses.
Posted by: Prodigal_Son at November 17, 2008 10:02 AM
traditionalmod
"They are fully equipped legally to take care of these situations."
Let me guess - you've never worked in a DA's office and you're not an attorney.
Posted by: dittoburg at November 17, 2008 10:06 AM
Maybe the neighbors took it into their own hands. I know a lot of that was done in Bed Stuy over the years. Not with fire however.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at November 17, 2008 10:12 AM
To Bond and others, for the record, I have nothing against cops and I too feel better when they're around. AND I have great sympathy for the risks they take and the limitations the law dictates. I do not claim expertise in law enforcement, but my sense is as I stated. Maybe this comes from a cynicism I acquired growing up in the city and the situation has become better over the years.
DIBS, why so against legalization? Just Wondering at 5:52 spelled out why it has merit.
Posted by: Susan Elkins at November 17, 2008 10:22 AM
Legalization of crack Susan???? Like I said, a crack house is a lot different from a marijuana garden!!!
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at November 17, 2008 10:30 AM
Dave, some places in the world allow addicts to use their drug in a controlled hygenic environment, where support is offered and available but not imposed, wehere clean disposable supplies are available and where people who genuinely care for such addicts and work with them are right there. Legalization can still be in a controlled environment.
Posted by: dittoburg at November 17, 2008 10:34 AM
Yes, and the territorial-related violence is history.
Posted by: Susan Elkins at November 17, 2008 10:40 AM
Like maybe the Crown Heights Armory!!! Yeah. That'll fly. We have them, they're called methadone clinics or hospitals. We are talking about crack here, not other more "benign" drugs that people are likely to behave much more socially acceptable when they are "on" them. People on crack are dangerous.
Admit to me that you'll allow crack heads roaming the streets when your kids are walking to school.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at November 17, 2008 10:42 AM
Again, no expert here, but I think I'd rather my kids walking by the clinic than the dealers. Out for awhile...
Posted by: Susan Elkins at November 17, 2008 10:50 AM
a lot of crackheads have been in the last year or so switching over to meth since it's a lot cheaper and has much stronger and lenghty high. if you think people on crack act cracked out, you havent seen anything yet.
-rob
Posted by: PitbullNYC at November 17, 2008 10:50 AM
No, I don't want my kids with the crack-heads. Its just that one of the programs I have seen seemed to work very well. But where there isn't the public will to properly finance it, you're probably right, it'll just be a mess. And in this financial climate, theres no spare cash at all.
Posted by: dittoburg at November 17, 2008 11:09 AM
Wow, a rerun of what happened on our Flatbush block in the late 80s. Guy sold crack off his front porch day and night, terrorized the block, had fires, tapped Con Ed, broke in after multiple board-ups; cops would shrug, "We can't arrest them in uniform, it has to be an undercover buy&bust, and they won't bother doing a sting against a low-level street dealer." Our block association was in despair; the crackheads were terrorizing us on our front porches. What finally got the scum out? A tough-minded Caribbean entrepreneur/investor bought the place and BROUGHT IN DOGS, then did a quickie reno to a 3-family. Probably not a legal 3-family, but nobody was complaining. Historically, we now think of that incredible time as the fatalistic chaos of the pre-Giuliani era, so I am appalled to think it can still be going on in a nabe with as much going for it as Bed-Stuy.
Posted by: Brenda from Flatbush at November 17, 2008 11:38 AM
The pre-guiliani era. Newbies have no idea. Remember when Mayor Dinkins got bonked on the head with a flying coke bottle when trying to intervene in the green market fracas in Brooklyn?
Posted by: sam at November 17, 2008 12:44 PM
There is something you can do when you have drug dealers in your neighborhood. I know because I battled with one that set up shop next door to my apt in a building that we had past trouble with.
#1 Call the local precinct and report all activity. I used to call about two times a day. Keep a record of the call times and who you spoke with. Don't get frustrated they most likely will do nothing and be annoyed that you call but you need to do this to do #2.
#2 Call 311 and keep calling them. Report the incidents and calls to precinct. They will put you in contact w/ the narcotics investigation unit. These are the only people that actually do anything. It does take a while expect at least 1-2 months but they came down my street w/ a SWAT team broke down the door and took everyone to jail and the problem ended for good.
Posted by: noodlescaboodles at November 17, 2008 4:39 PM
noodles - that is awesome.
Posted by: wine lover at November 17, 2008 4:44 PM
It's naive to think that just because your dealer delivers and you're only buying pot that you're not supporting the rest of the drug trade. The organizations that distribute distribute all sorts of things, and even if you're buying your weed from a hydroponic farmer in Oregon, I'd suspect they have ties to a biker gang you may not find so hygienic.
If you want to argue legalization, do so, but as long as you're supporting the industry as it is, you're supporting all parts of it.
Posted by: Heather at November 17, 2008 4:49 PM
Noodles is right. Uniform cops don't handle drug complaints ever since the Knapp commission, the city is too worried about the possibility of corruption. Ironically this leads to cases where people see nothing being done, so they assume that the local cops are being paid off.
That being said, if you are a big pain in the butt, something will get done. Narcotics has to answer out every complaint that comes their way and if they get enough of them, they will do what they have to do to close the location. I'm just curious as to how many people sit around and grouse about a location, yet have never actually filed a comlaint, waiting for someone else to do it. In the meantime, the situation just continues. Again, Park Slope was downright funky in the 70's and 80's, but a small core of people kicked and screamed and made sure that their complaints were heard and as a result saved their neighborhood instead of sitting by quietly and letting things collapse. Strength in numbers.
It's so easy to push the blame off on someone else, "oh the cops don't care", "the courts will just let them out anyway", "The cops are getting paid off", blah, blah, blah just a bunch of excuses. How many of the people complaining about things actually ever attempted to do anything about it? If you don't fight for your own neighborhood, how can you expect other people to?
Posted by: Bond at November 17, 2008 5:03 PM
daveinbedstuy -
i live in clinton hill, and on a block that's home to plenty of drug dealing. thanks.
regardless, i think it is callous that people are so distraught over the loss of the home's details (which were probably destroyed long ago anyway), and no one has mentioned the possible loss of human life. could have been crack heads, or perhaps cops or firemen or neighbors injured.
Posted by: bebklyn at November 18, 2008 4:33 PM

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