Dow Closes Down 679 Points

I happened to go shopping tonight in SoHo (needed a sweater) and was amazed at how the stores were just buzzing. Clearly, there are many people (perhaps myself in included) who are in a certain state of denial. Then again, maybe small pleasures, like a $50 wool sweater, are comforting at times like these. How the hell are the credit card companies doing by the way? Now THAT would bring the economy to a grinding halt, if credit card companies froze people's ability to purchase. While I agree with those who say we lost our way by living beyond our means, getting too greedy/lazy/fat/consumerist, I certainly don't want a total meltdown. Let's hope the panic subsides and while this is probably the end of capitalism as we've known it, maybe a somewhat less extreme system can be ushered in as a replacement, that allows for competition and merit, but does not create the kind of Gilded Age excesses of the last few decades.

Posted by: Miss Muffett at October 9, 2008 9:13 PM

So "actually works in finance" - where is a better place to be right now? Europe seems to be heading into shambles, and many developing countries have pretty scary records still on human rights. I'm optimistic by nature, so despite the tremendous stupidity of this nation in electing Bush for 2 terms, I have to believe that there are also enough smart capable people (the actual popular majority that voted against him twice!) that we can pull our way out of this mess. But yes, the party of this Gilded Age is most certainly over, and while there will be a lot of pain, I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing - a lot of people were already in pain, and now that pain will be distributed more throughout the population.

Posted by: Miss Muffett at October 9, 2008 9:27 PM

Wow, IronBalls, that's some vitriol. You honestly think McCain would be better than Obama, after recklessly appointing a VP who can't even string together a coherent sentence unless she's reciting sound bites and zingers she's memorized? After cynically reversing his once-more-respectful positions of past years, for the sole purpose of getting elected? And who is now running an irresponsibly nasty campaign? I genuinely can understand why some people may feel Obama is a gamble but he's a hell of a lot better of a gamble than anything else we have before us - and I happen to believe he's a lot more than that, that he has exhibited calm, good judgment, and balance - all qualities that we desperately need now. I think the next 4 years will be very hard no matter what happens with this election, but I fear McCain-Palin could complete the utter destruction of this country (which Bush has damaged so tragically) whereas at least with Obama, we have a shot of getting out of this mess...

Posted by: Miss Muffett at October 9, 2008 9:54 PM

ACIF (actually works in finance is too long!) - I agree that thrift is important, and I generally am pretty frugal. We sold our place at what now looks to have been the peak in order to move to a good public school zone for our kids and we decided to rent a very modest place so we could save to buy a more permanent home. And yes, I also totally agree that what matters most is family, time and what kind of person you are, certainly not what you own. I think it's really tragic that this country, if not the whole world, got swept up in a frenzy of consumerism and escalating greed that is now crashing down around us and hurting many innocent people. There are no easy answers in this situation since everyone is to interrelated and moral hazard abounds at every turn. I suppose that's why the stock market is plunging since there's no quick fix. All we can hope to do is tighten our belts, work as hard as we can, and take care of our loved ones and our communities as best we can.

Posted by: Miss Muffett at October 9, 2008 10:00 PM

OK, maybe I'm thick or just too tired, but can someone explain tybur6's post?

And DIBS, I agree that we don't feel the change in our daily lives now, but are you saying you don't think we will?

Posted by: Miss Muffett at October 9, 2008 10:57 PM

IronBalls - it might be a waste of time to engage in a debate with you, but I don't see how you can with a straight face call Obama's agenda "socialist" when the current administration's policies, which McCain supported 90% of the time, have led to the greatest nationalization of the American economy ever. And our economy is *already* ruined, thanks to the disastrous rein of Bush, which again, McCain has largely supported. How will a tax increase on a very tiny percentage of our population be worse then McCain's huge tax cuts to huge corporations? And as Obama will have repeat til he's blue in the face, he's also calling for major tax CUTS for 95% of Americans.

And yes, 11217 is right that there is more to life for sure than money and real estate though I do worry about the kind of government that runs this country since I want a good future for my children - for ALL children - and I find it so tragic what has happened under Bush. McCain is no maverick - he wants, in large part, more of the same. How on earth can that be good for us?

Posted by: Miss Muffett at October 9, 2008 11:17 PM

And for chrissake, IronBalls, to suggest that I am just swayed by Obama's "good looks" etc. is just plain insulting. I think the triumph of personality over substance (people "not liking" kerry/gore enough in past elections, relative to the seemingly affable, but ultimately mean-spirited, bush) is part of the complex tragedy that led us to this debacle.

Posted by: Miss Muffett at October 9, 2008 11:26 PM

Thanks Wasder, I'm clueless about video games but now I get it.

And IronBalls (again, not sure if there's any point to even asking), how may I ask would you respond to my questions about McCain? Even many conservatives have been appalled by his devastating choice of Palin, which reflects a broader recklessness that is terrifying.

Posted by: Miss Muffett at October 9, 2008 11:28 PM

Oh well, it is clearly pointless to argue about politics on this list, and more so with people like IronBalls who resort to inappropriate insults (that I am jealous of Palin? that's just preposterous) instead of any substantive points. And we wonder why this country is in such a mess. Sad. Tragic actually. Let's hope we can turn things around, for all our sakes, even delusional types like IronBalls.

Posted by: Miss Muffett at October 10, 2008 7:22 AM

I agree that it's too easy to paint caricatures in this environment, and there are many good people in middle America. But there is a level of responsibility that must be taken, perhaps by all of us to some extent, for engaging in the kind of increasingly frenzied consumerism that has characterized the last few decades. The beacon of easy money (stoked by greed) underlies much of this financial mess. It's tempting to feel holier-than-thou if one has been frugal, saved responsibility, and tried to make conservative financial decisions (as I have with my family) but everything is relative and I'm sure some would look at me and think what I define as frugal is still wasteful and/or excessive. Where does one draw the line?

At the same time, I do think there is a level of selfishness that I find inexcusable among some Americans. Thomas Friedman summed this up well in his critique of Palin's statements that paying taxes is not patriotic. Why isn't it? If Americans don't all pitch in to help pay the huge bills we are incurring (at war, to clean up the financial mess), how on earth does she think the bills will get paid? At a time when it's clearer than ever that we need good governance, Palin-McCain's tone deafness is astonishing.

Anyway, we could all go on for ever railing and venting about how we got here and who's to blame. And while I think an analysis of the path to this debacle needs to happen (to understand how to get out), the focus does have to be on repairing all the damage has been done, and trying to see through our differences to all get out of the mess together.

Posted by: Miss Muffett at October 10, 2008 10:44 AM