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September 19, 2008
Whose Tree Is It, Anyway?

A Flatbush resident recounts a tale of woe concerning her beloved oak tree. Her neighbor, a local temple, wasn't fond of the tree's branches. The rest in her words: "I came home today at 11 AM to find a whole crew of people all over my lawn and driveway chopping up the big huge branches they had already chopped off the tree. This seems very wrong. Shouldn’t they have at least asked me before climbing up the tree and chopping big parts off? This is a venerable old oak that has been here I am going to guess for more than 100 years. The deed was done by the time I got home — but they (the crew) were still out on my lawn, chain-sawing the branches into bits and pieces. Add this to the fact that the temple’s compressor runs loudly night and day — even when it is 55 degrees out and the temple has the windows open... And the senior center food garbage is a stinky mess that leaks out some pretty nasty luiquid onto the sidewalk (where my one year old child walks). I really need some help — how I can exert a little pressure on the temple to act more like good neighbors?? The tree, the noise, the garbage — it is really bad." BTW, she called the police, who "were completely uninterested."
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Comments
call 311.. they needed a letter of permission to touch the tree...consider suing them as well
Posted by: eman at September 19, 2008 9:44 AM
Is that the before or after pic?? If it's after it doesn't look so bad.
That said, the law typically states that they can remove whatever hangs onto their property. It usually does not allow for them to automatically have access to your property though.
There's nothing you can do after the fact unless you want to sue them. I'd consistently call 311 on them for all the other violations though.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at September 19, 2008 9:44 AM
But Dave, why would she call 311 or sue them if they can remove whatever hangs onto their property?
Posted by: Biff Champion at September 19, 2008 9:47 AM
Because they just marched onto her property without asking!
Posted by: guestula at September 19, 2008 9:50 AM
Oops, my bad. I missed the fact they were actually on HER property. Dave, please cue your lecture on reading comprehension.
Posted by: Biff Champion at September 19, 2008 9:52 AM
I'll give you one pass today Biff. I'm in a happy "irrationally exuberant" mood today. That said, I think this is a selling opportunity!!!
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at September 19, 2008 9:59 AM
There was a case in CA this year where the tree won over the neighbors rights. I can't remember whether I read in NYTimes or WSJ. I would sue. Especially if they were on your lawn and there were damages.
Posted by: DeLepp at September 19, 2008 9:59 AM
NNo wonder the courts are clogged. Cutting a few branches off a tree is likely a good thing for both your lawn and the tree. And you got it done for free.
If they had asked you would you have let them cut the branches? I think yes.
Posted by: mark swiss at September 19, 2008 10:19 AM
I am actually surprised that a tree as old as this that is part of the streetscape wouldn't have statutory protection. I am also surprised someone else didn't call 311 or indeed 911 whilst the owner was out. I hope that the city fines the temple big time for touching that tree without authorization.
I agree with daveinbedstuy, call 311 for every single violation that affects your quality of life.
You might also consider calling one of those ambulance chasing plaintiff attorneys who advertise on the subway.
Posted by: bohuma at September 19, 2008 10:19 AM
No wonder the courts are clogged. Cutting a few branches off a tree is likely a good thing for both your lawn and the tree. And you got it done for free.
If they had asked you would have let them cut the branches? I think yes.
Posted by: mark swiss at September 19, 2008 10:20 AM
I've actually never called 311 and don't advocate it just to be a nuissance but when something as egregious as this occurs you need to take as many measures as possible.
Get creative in ways to annoy them!!!
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at September 19, 2008 10:23 AM
I'm totally talk off the top of my head from something I remember seeing on the news about a law being passed that businesses couldn't run the A/C and leave the doors open to the stores (ring any bells anyone?).
Wouldn't the same apply to having the heat blasting and leaving the windows open?
Posted by: TownhouseLady at September 19, 2008 10:27 AM
Apparently today I find the use of "ing" completely superfluous.
Posted by: TownhouseLady at September 19, 2008 10:30 AM
TownhouseLady, you may being right.
Posted by: Biff Champion at September 19, 2008 10:37 AM
We all agree that trees are beautiful and that they need periodic pruning. I think that it's even healthiest for the tree to have a little taken off the top, bottom, etc. My question is (and only because I am bored): Doesn't the city have to trim a tree on the sidewalk? Is this tree on the sidewalk? I guess that counts as "questions". I think that if you trim a tree improperly and the tree dies, the city will actually sue you or something. I heard that once. Anyway, the tree looks pretty and it, just like people when they get haircuts, will look better when it's not so fresh.
As for the garbage. It leaks. It stinks.
The best way to have a good neighbor is to be a good neighbor. That said, my next door neighbor is impossible.
Posted by: superstooper at September 19, 2008 10:37 AM
I wouldn't the Department of Health would be concerned with the garbage juice.
Posted by: TownhouseLady at September 19, 2008 10:41 AM
I wouldn't the Department of Health would be concerned with the garbage juice.
Posted by: TownhouseLady at September 19, 2008 10:42 AM
I'm SO Sorry guys (typos, poor grammar, re-posts).
I'm experiencing technical difficulties. Please stand by.
Posted by: TownhouseLady at September 19, 2008 10:48 AM
THL what's wrong with you today?? I'm really concerned. ;)
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at September 19, 2008 10:57 AM
She may have just checked the quote on FXZ and can't speak.
Garbage juice...
Posted by: buttermilk channel at September 19, 2008 11:06 AM
Me too. Particularly so since it's completely unrelated to alcohol.
Posted by: TownhouseLady at September 19, 2008 11:06 AM
TownhouseLady, you can redeem yourself by pointing us to a link as amusing as the Mill Basin Fantasyland. Actually, save it for next week. I'm leaving early today and traveling until Tuesday and would hate to miss the fun!
Posted by: Biff Champion at September 19, 2008 11:13 AM
Pruning done by a professional is healthy for a tree, randomly taking branches off is not. Cutting these branches up on your lawn is trespassing and I personally find it mind bogglingly rude.
Posted by: Left Hook at September 19, 2008 11:33 AM
I saw the incident as the crew was cleaning up. It was without question a city tree, and the crew was definitely all over the owner's lawn without permissio. They did not simply cut off the sections of branches overhanging the synogogue's property - they cut it off at the trunk.
The homeowner does not own the tree. The city does. However, I did not see a Parks Dept. truck, which is what comes out when I call the city to prune the large city-owned trees in front of my property.
The homeowner has trespassing issues, among others, with the synogogue, definitely. However, she does not own the tree (unfortunate in this case). That said, I did not get the impression that it was a Parks Dept pruning job - rather something organized by the temple, seemingly without permission from the Parks Dept (although I don't really know that for sure).
Posted by: Architerrorist at September 19, 2008 11:37 AM
That is so strange for the synagogue to just hire someone to go on someone else's property and trim their tree. I guess if the owner had liked it, she would have thought that they were really nice neighbors to be helping out. Me thinks there is much more to this story, as usual.
Posted by: superstooper at September 19, 2008 11:57 AM
"The homeowner does not own the tree. The city does. However, I did not see a Parks Dept. truck, which is what comes out when I call the city to prune the large city-owned trees in front of my property."
It's possible the city hired a contractor on this job.
Posted by: East New York at September 19, 2008 12:03 PM
There are regulations against illegally cutting city trees.... I think the person SHOULD call 311. I've seen places where people have cut down street trees so they can park in front of their house. That really makes me angry.
So she should complain. Maybe nothing will be done, but maybe it will. In addition, the OP should write a letter to the synagogue, informing them of the illegality of their action, and reminding them that being neighborly means being neighborly to all neighbors. The OP should also mention the problems with the way that the synagogue takes care of its own property, especially concerning health issues.
Posted by: Minmin at September 19, 2008 12:09 PM
OOO ENY, you are so smart. The city does sub some of the trimming out. Even the authorized pruners butcher the trees. Their motivation is not aesthetics.
Is there evidence that it was illegally cut?
Posted by: superstooper at September 19, 2008 12:15 PM
i'm in the middle of trying to get the city to trim some dead branches, and here's what i've found. 1) it is most definitely only the city that can prune or remove sidewalk trees, although they may hire someone else to do the removal; 2) it takes a LONG time for complaints to result in actual trimming, though dead trees are supposedly removed within 30 days; 3) if there were complaints about the tree and/or the city actually cut it, 311 should be able to direct you to the department that can confirm this; and 4) you can report what you believe to be unauthorized pruning to 311. there definitely is the potential of a fine, but i believe it is a penalty only the city can enforce. (that is, no private right to sue.) see: http://www.nycgovparks.org/sub_your_park/trees_greenstreets/tree_care.html.
i think the victim in this case should be able to have the city replace the tree. it won't be a mature tree, but it will be something. and the new tree is "guaranteed" to be given 2 years to (try to) thrive.
Posted by: i disagree at September 19, 2008 12:20 PM
OP: It appears that at least one poster to this forum witnessed the trespass of your property. Hopefully they will make themselves known to you. I hope you made note of the company performing the work. Regardless, file a police report of trespass.
As to the "pruning", see: http://www.nycgovparks.org/sub_your_park/trees_greenstreets/tree_damage_arborcide.html
Tree Damage and Arborcide -- It is illegal and punishable by law for citizens to remove, kill, or damage a street or park tree, whether intentionally or accidentally.
No one is allowed to perform any work on a tree unless they are employed by Parks or are under a pruning or removal contract with Parks. Certified Citizen Pruners, who are trained to do light tree pruning by Trees New York, are authorized by the city to prune small branches that can be reached from the ground. Any Citizen Pruner who performs tree work outside of these guidelines is subject to arrest and fine. Anyone caught removing or otherwise harming a tree should be reported immediately. Call 311 to notify an officer. To have a damaged tree inspected, call 311.
Posted by: vinca at September 19, 2008 12:31 PM
TownhouseLady, it was the NY City Council that was looking to pass something about commercial businesses that blast their A/Cs and leave their doors open, thus wasting energy. I do not recall the outcome...
Posted by: mksk at September 19, 2008 1:34 PM
Speaking of trees, what is up with Lafayette Avenue? There are trees on that street -- truly beautiful ones to be sure -- that take up the entire sidewalk, buckling the concrete and everything. In the winter it must be a complete nightmare.
Posted by: Heather at September 19, 2008 1:49 PM
Re the Lafayette Avenue situation, this is actually (believe it or not) the homeowner's responsibility. They have the responsibility of keeping the sidewalk in front of their houses free from trip hazards. In some cases, I think people are able to get the city to do something to help them out, but more often than not it's a matter of patches.
Posted by: Minmin at September 19, 2008 3:13 PM
The spot I am thinking of is beyond patching. The tree's circumference takes up half the sidewalk. Gorgeous old tree, but what do you do?
Posted by: Heather at September 19, 2008 5:11 PM
First of all, we didn’t get enough info on the tree story above to come to any educated conclusion…was that on purpose?
Minmin and Heather,
Yes, that spot on Lafayette in front of "E.'s" house is a doozy...but you still can get a stroller through...but not a large cart. That root really spreads out, don't it though?! Parks will probably eventually remove the tree and put something else in. The south side of Lafayette from Fulton going up the hill to about Carlton has, unfortunately, overly narrow sidewalks. Lafayette's north side has much, much wider sidewalks.
If the property is a 1- to 3-family (may require owner-occupied status...can't remember), the City will do sidewalk work...there's a waiting list of course.
You can go ahead and do the sidewalk on your own dime. Most people do probably. You have to get on the tree root trimming waiting list (too late now for this year probably if anyone is thinking of doing sidewalk work that will require root trimming). When you get a date, you schedule your sidewalk contractor to come out to break up and remove the cement before Parks comes to do the trimming; then the contractor (usually the next day) pours the sidewalk.
Again, the homeowner is not necessarily responsible for sidewalk work. BUT, the homeowner's insurance company will often decline renewing a policy if there is a sidewalk tripping hazard...doesn't have to be a huge difference in levels from one slab to the other...I have to wonder how the insurance co's do not come down more heavily on the crazy slate/bluestone sidewalk messes that seem to never or only barely ever get fixed.
Remember, all this is thanks to the city dismissing itself from liability. Only a bunch of years ago, it made it the homeowner's liable. Thank you Mr. Mayor. The insurance companies freaked and started denying renewals all over the place. The sidewalk contractors have made a mint. [Meanwhile though, I believe the City is a co-defendant so specious slip-n-falls probably will not fly…I have heard of some beauts. For example, “I fell on your rather smooth sidewalk 8 months ago and want $3m”…real story of a friend who got a letter from a lawyer for the plaintiff…in the end friend’s lawyer said to ignore it.]
I feel this kind of homeowner liability is fine in the burbs, especially where you own up to the roadway and may even have the option NOT to have a sidewalk, but easily takes on the feeling of gov't not doing it's job with a strong taste of the arbitrary running through it since this was pushed through in NYC where so much is paved and owned/controlled by the gov’t. The move to making homeowners liable saved the City tons of dough but smacks of poor urban planning, especially because the City did not devote the resources to plan the switch-over. Education, outreach and resources were/have not been sufficiently available to property owners; the system is less than obvious to navigate. Look at the general ignorance on Brownstoner…and these are rootin’ tootin’ homeowners many of us.
The tree questions highlight this. If you do not have a tree in front of your house, you will probably incur fewer costs and fewer hassles with insuring the property. You probably had no input in the tree-planting decision AND, when a tree was planted back when, it was under a different schema in terms of sidewalk responsibility.
It seems to me that just as trees planted 60 to 80 years ago, some having proven themselves as species wholly unsuited to life as street trees, started to reach unwieldy girths and root runs, the City stuck the homeowners with a near impossible set of rules to live under. The insurance companies hopped on it right away while but the City was not equipped to handle the influx of root trimming requests. Meanwhile, homeowners were desperate to get the City to come deal with trees so sidewalk work could be completed to satisfy the insurers.
There is also a question of possible arbitrary (and de facto private) enforcement, if you will, because insurers may not consistently apply criteria from place to place…plus, the various people who walk around taking photos and writing up assessments for the insurers are not infallible…you get a meany writing your house up and you’re done for…AND, there are different insurers acting inconsistently one from the other no matter how well any one of them is run individually. This leads to an unfair situation with all cards stacked against homeowners…and possible punitive treatment of certain areas. Insurers have an out so they can pull policies in the hood AND work over their more affluent policy-holders to cough it up.
If the City is the overriding decision-maker determining sidewalk hazards, there is recourse for the property owner. Currently, it’s a privatized minor free-for-all that has left homeowners preyed upon. Homeowners are individuals…insurers are not…contractors may not be that small either. The little guy ends up paying. In some rare cases, block associations get it together and have the whole block redone at once which lowers the cost to the individual homeowners but still leads to a big out-of-pocket.
If you have a super-deep sidewalk, you're held liable for a lot more square footage than someone with a shallow depth sidewalk—another arbitrary element to all this that struck me the minute the City stepped away from liability. So, a bit sidewalk leads to more repair costs, sweeping, snow shoveling, etc... The sidewalks are owned by the City and generally were put in place by the City in residential Brooklyn. Trees owned by the City and planted in, say, 1930 are now getting to be huge, pushing up sidewalks and dropping branches on roadways, cars, etc.
The sidewalk liability change has been a hidden tax on homeowners. I can understand that an office tower on 6th Avenue and 49th is responsible for its sidewalks…heck, they want to be--and these large commercial properties sometimes have special paving put down that blends with their esplanades
Posted by: BrooklynGreene at September 19, 2008 7:32 PM
Fortunately [for at least some of us]the change in sidewalk liability does not apply to one [and two?] family houses
Posted by: Bob Marvin at September 20, 2008 4:18 PM

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