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September 10, 2008

Bay Ridge Becoming McCondo Central?

As the battle to save Bay Ridge's Green Church from being razed and reborn as condos winds down, the Observer finds the neighborhood is becoming a haven for such "McCondos." Despite a three-year-old rezoning preventing "'out-of-character development' in the low-rise neighborhood," they write, "tensions between nostalgic residents and developers who continue to squeeze three- and four-story apartment buildings into plots once occupied by single-family homes show no signs of abating." Residents fear the area will become another "mini Manhattan," or transform at the pace and scale of downtown Brooklyn. Perhaps as offensive to some as the onslaught of "Feders" buildings are the demolition of century-old limestone townhouses and single-family Victorian homes, the old preservation-versus-progress paradigm, that inevitably recalls nostalgia for an earlier time and extends beyond an attempt to rescue buildings. As one resident said, "We were just telling my brother's kids about how all the kids in the neighborhood used to play stickball in the street when we were young. Now all the kids are inside playing those electronic games. The whole neighborhood thing is really changing."
McCondos in Bay Ridge [NY Observer]
Bay Ridge Row Houses. Photo by bondidwhat.

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Comments

Um, while I stand shoulder to shoulder with my brothers & sisters in Bay Ridge on the ideals of contextual development, why is this news?

Every area of Brooklyn that has had contextual rezoning (R6B, R5B, etc.) is still seeing a building boom. Look at South Park Slope, Greenwood Heights, Ft. Greene/Clinton Hill, Billybugh/Greenpoint...you name it. Even old school rezonings like Windsor Terrace.

While contextual zoning changes may curb rampant over development (the double edged sword for the developer, since their greed tends to drive residents to call for a rezoning), it does not stop it.

Sorry Bay Ridge, not to be unsympathetic, but get in line with the rest of us.

Posted by: Action Jackson at September 10, 2008 11:07 AM

As has been said before, Bay Ridge hasn't been a community of townhouses since before the Depression. There are HUNDREDS of buildings larger than 3 stories.

The quote about kids is a real kicker too. Bay Ridge is a classic example of a natural retirement community. Who is buying these condos? Often the very children of these NIMBYs who can't afford to buy in the neighborhood since the elderly occupy most of the prime housing. You want to have children play in your neighborhood again? Give an opportunity for young people to afford to live there! Either a mass exodus to Florida, or perhaps - allow multifamily development! These NIMBYs have only themselves to blame when their children leave. It's the same story on Staten Island.

As a final note - I'm all for aesthetic standards, but suggesting a 3-story building could possibly be a source of tension is insane. Also, I'd say many houses in Bay Ridge are rather ugly. Certainly, most wood framed houses have not been maintained very well. A lot of it is also cultural. You have the Italian American aesthetic in the hood that has completely destroyed the Scandinavian style of many of these wood framed houses. Most such homes have ghastly renovations. There are nice limestones, yes - but the neighborhood is now just a mish mash of bizarre renovations, stately apartment houses, and some good quality limestones.

Posted by: Polemicist at September 10, 2008 11:19 AM

they should enjoy the more dense area. if they want to live in the old nabe, move to staten island. tons of old bay ridgers live there.

Posted by: armchairwarrior at September 10, 2008 11:30 AM

I'm not against development, but I'm also for preservation. Unfortunately, Bay Ridge is slowly being destroyed architecturally. There is a 'mish mash' of styles and 'ghaslty 'renovations, thanks to owners, who think they are creating something aesthically wonderful...BUT there are still alot of intact Victorians, brownstones, limestones that need to be protected and preserved...I'm all for landmarking.

Polemicist - The source of tenstion is that in order to build a 3-story building, they tear down a victorian or a couple of row houses.
You didn't walk around all of Bay Ridge if all you saw were ugly houses and unfortunately, you missed seeing some grand homes.

Posted by: bayridgegirl at September 10, 2008 12:03 PM

Here's a letter that was written and distrubed through out Bay Ridge, to the local papers and through email. I was moved by it. I won't reveal who the author is to protect their privacy.

Letter -

I'm not a church going person. I'm sure many people probably think I should be, so I can find God and be 'saved'.

On Saturday, February 16, 2008, I went to church; Bay Ridge United Methodist Church; on Ovington and Fourth Avenue in Bay Ridge, Brooklyn. I stood outside with a sign and chanted 'Save the Green Church'. I tried to be loud so I can be heard. I stopped strangers to tell them that we need to save this church.

I found it ironic that the 'church' wasn't' trying to save me, but that I was trying to save it. I find it even more ironic that this Church is not trying to save itself. The church has sold out to a developer, who wants to tear down, a 'House of God', a building on the National Registrar of Historic Places and put up Condos.

I don't have any affiliation with this church or any church. I have an affiliation with architecture and a community.

I've lived in Bay Ridge for over 30 years. I walk its streets and admire its grand Victorian homes, with their turrets and columned porches. I gaze at the rows of townhouses made of brick, limestone or brownstone, with their original cornices and railings and imagine the interiors with pocket doors and mouldings. I occasionally walk past a 'farm' house and reflect on what it might have been like in it's hey day, with its tract of land and nothing around it for acres. I also stumble upon construction sites of recently demolished homes and cringe at the thought of what is going to replace it, a non-descript brick or stucco building with a lifeless facade. As I stroll the neighborhood, I walk by recently constructed buildings and stop to pay homage to what was there; I try to remember the color of the house, the architectural elements that made it distinct, and I always think, 'What a Shame'.

What a Shame, that Bay Ridge, Brooklyn is being destroyed and stripped of its architectural character and history. Our Shore was once lined with Summer Cottages, our streets were full of homes of distinction. What will we have left, as developers raze this neighborhood of its origins, charm and exceptional architecture?

What will we have left if the 'Green' Church is demolished? A fleeting memory of what once stood in this historic neighborhood. A memory of its green ashlar stone, stained glass windows, and the clock tower that stood majestic over the avenue. We don't need memories; we need that church preserved as a reverence of this neighborhood's past and as a hope for the future of Bay Ridge. A future that incorporates, appreciates, and reveres our history.

We need to protect our landmarks for generations to come, so they too can appreciate and be in awe of our historic neighborhood and beautiful community.

Posted by: bayridgegirl at September 10, 2008 12:18 PM

I have to agree that Bay Ridge gets a bad rap when it comes to architecture. I didn't know the grandure of Bay Ridge until I moved here 3 years ago. I used to say that it was the one thing I missed about Park Slope - the architecture. Then when I started walking the nabe and venturing down side streets and dead ends and being pleastantly surprised. Plus the victorians that line some streets are incredible, you just need to know where to look. If I coule afford one I would buy it.

I also would hate to see many of these destroyed for a McCondo. Something needs to be done for sure.

Posted by: italiana71 at September 10, 2008 12:52 PM

Huh? You aren't affiliated with any church, but are worried about a "house of god" being torn down? You find it ironic that you are trying to save the church, but it isn't trying to save you? You seem to be confusing a building with a "house of god." The building is a shell, which serves the function of sheltering the house of god within, which is the community of believers and their good deeds. The church has sold the building so that it may continue as a community in a more appropriate space. It may very well be that many on the outside may appreciate the fine architecture of the building, but unless they are willing to financially support its maintenance, they cannot mandate its future. In some countries empty churches are maintained as the official state church. That is not the case here.

Posted by: Putnamdenizen at September 10, 2008 12:55 PM

It's easier to find street parking on 1st Ave. in midtown Manhattan at 4pm with the president speaking at the UN than it is in Bay Ridge.

Posted by: Xander Crews at September 10, 2008 1:05 PM

Actually there was a measure of public and private financing offered to the Church about a year ago with arrangements to still allow the parish use part of the church for worship and the rest to be used for community space. The pastor turned it down. So the offers were withdrawn and thats that.

Posted by: italiana71 at September 10, 2008 1:22 PM

"the demolition of century-old limestone townhouses"

What ??

I have been around and involved in Bay Ridge for almost 8 years now. As far as I know not one limestone townhouse has been demolished in Bay Ridge. Way too many freestanding homes on wide lots have been however. Attached rowhouses are usually safer than freestanding homes as they are individually owned and on narrow lots (therefore several would be needed for development).

Let's just hope that this crazy real estate market will calm the overdevelopment here and elsewhere in the city. At least for a while.

Posted by: SenatorStreet at September 10, 2008 1:36 PM

Italiana71...if I'm thinking of the same offer. It was for the same amount of money that the developer offered. But was rejected. Fishy indeed. There are some very strange things going on or have gone on between the church and the developer.

It would have been a great adapative re-use; community center, theater, art space.

What alot of people don't know or forget, is there is a two story building that housed a school, that is also part of the church property. There is also a parsonage, a limestone rowhouse (it's the end unit of maybe 20) that is also part of the deal. Those are both slated for demolition. I feel bad for the owner of the house right next to the townhouse that'll be demolished.

Posted by: bayridgegirl at September 10, 2008 1:52 PM

"Often the very children of these NIMBYs who can't afford to buy in the neighborhood since the elderly occupy most of the prime housing."

Ahh, I see poley is on his kill the elderly to get their prime housing rant again. Poley- someday when you're older (if you're lucky) and wiser (if we're lucky) you'll look back on this and cringe. Seems to me that people who have worked all their lives, payed taxes, rent or own have a right to stay in their homes. Ageism is just as ugly a characteristic as racism. Don't forget, your parents (I'm making an assumption here) did their time, so to speak. Why is it on that generation to now simply get up and out of your way? Doesn't say much for your vision of society, despite all your professed concern with the environment and housing.

Tell you what, Poley- when you've contributed as much to society as many older Bay ridge residents have (got your military service done yet, boy?) then you have a right to open your mouth about where they should live. Until then, don't because you make yourself look like an ignorant, biased fool.

Posted by: lurker in the mist at September 10, 2008 1:59 PM

Thank you, Lurker. As both Italian American and elderly I've begun to think we're the only ones that can still be openly stereotyped. Poley, I promise as an Italian American to improve my taste and as an old person to shuffle off this mortal coil just as soon as I can so that you can have more room.

Posted by: giovannina at September 10, 2008 2:16 PM

'Bay Ridge hasn't been a community of townhouses since before the Depression'.

Poley, Bay Ridge was largely a community of free standing and semi-attached homes with some streets of rowhouses.

'Bay Ridge is a classic example of a natural retirement community'.

What, I'm retired!!
There are so many young people in Bay Ridge. Oh, my god, I say a couple of hipsters walking around last weekend. You have no idea what you're talking about.

'You want to have children play in your neighborhood again? Give an opportunity for young people to afford to live there!'

Young people have a better opportunity to buy here than in brownstone brooklyn. The prices are fair and I hope stay that way.

Over development is not the answer to affordability.

Posted by: bayridgegirl at September 10, 2008 2:45 PM

giovannina- he's the poster child for why children should be seen and not heard. I grew up in a multi-generational household, in a neighborhood with many elderly people who enriched my childhood immeasurably. Don't know how polemicist grew up, but it seems like something was lacking.

Posted by: bxgrl at September 10, 2008 2:49 PM

"seems like something was lacking"

Yes, TLC

Posted by: Action Jackson at September 10, 2008 2:55 PM

Lurker

I'm amused at your reference of wisdom, as the great philosophers and statesman of history universally accept the importance of the interdependence of generations.

There will come a time in the not so distant future where elders such as you will need the strength and virility of those younger generations. You already require them in the present, although the peace and prosperity you have enjoyed for the past 60 years may obscure this fact through a vast abstraction of wealth redistribution, the ponzi scheme of "investments" and debt enslavement.

I'm also greatly amused you would bring up military service. You clearly haven't served in the military yourself, otherwise you not have mentioned such a thing. God help you if the day comes when Americans face a protracted war. Why on earth would the youth of American defend someone like you?

People choose to die in war because they believe their civilization is worth preserving, and that their children and family should have the opportunity to thrive into the future.

As a final aside, I don't advocate the forcible removal of anyone. I believe in the free market and property rights. Unfortunately, it seems that it is you who wish to tell people what to do - not me. It seems you have fallen victim to what psychologists call "projection".

Posted by: Polemicist at September 10, 2008 3:04 PM

Ah, poley, poley, poley. "I'm amused at your reference of wisdom, as the great philosophers and statesman of history universally accept the importance of the interdependence of generations." Yes- and I argued for it, not against it- that was you, my friend. And I wouldn't be so quick to assume you know anything about my age or my military service.

"There will come a time in the not so distant future where elders such as you will need the strength and virility of those younger generations. You already require them in the present, although the peace and prosperity you have enjoyed for the past 60 years may obscure this fact through a vast abstraction of wealth redistribution, the ponzi scheme of "investments" and debt enslavement."

What you are describing is not the majority of elderly Americans but it would also serve you better to remember that without the contributions of previous generations- in both war and peace- you wouldn't exist. Or do you think (and you most obviously do) that the elderly simply appeared full blown from the head of Zeus, taking prime real estate to keep out the young, and having lived the life of Riley now simply want to suck the blood of the "young and virile."

You have no idea what you're talking about and your last post proves that you're desperately trying to backpedal on comments here and those you've made previously. For someone who claims to believe in the importance of intergenerational dependence, you've made more than one agrument against that, both subtly and not so subtly.

Sorry pal- being young doesn't entitle any of us to anything other than the possibility of growing old. All you are is an elderly person with a little less mileage and a lot less experience.

Posted by: lurker in the mist at September 10, 2008 3:19 PM

bayridgegirl:

"Oh, my god, I say a couple of hipsters walking around last weekend. You have no idea what you're talking about."

While I appreciate your anecdotal evidence, it doesn't help us much. Bay Ridge has a higher proportion of the population being over 65 in comparison with the nation as a whole. Conversely, the percentage of the population under 18 is lower than the nation as a whole.

"Over development is not the answer to affordability."

You obviously know nothing of economics. Supply and demand. Read up on it.

bxgrl:

I am not suggesting the elderly in general have no value in society, but there must be mutual benefit. In this case, you are misconstruing a discussion of public policy with a specific bias. The elderly, by their nature, resist change. This is a very fundamental issue in society. The restraint they impart is hugely beneficial as younger generations will often be brash.

Posted by: Polemicist at September 10, 2008 3:25 PM

Well said, lurker.

I vote for this as quote of the day.

being young doesn't entitle any of us to anything other than the possibility of growing old.

Posted by: bayridgegirl at September 10, 2008 3:26 PM

"God help you if the day comes when Americans face a protracted war. Why on earth would the youth of American defend someone like you?"

Iraq War - In its 5th year, 4,093 U.S. soldiers killed, 30,182 wounded.

It's already happening, man. And since when do "the youth of American [sic]" selectively defend segments of the populace?

Posted by: East New York at September 10, 2008 3:33 PM

"I am not suggesting the elderly in general have no value in society, but there must be mutual benefit. "

How about defining mutual benefit as the benefit of their experience, their previous service to the country, the raising of selfish brats like yourself, paying their dues and contributing to the base of knowledge, wealth, art, architecture, etc. that you use and enjoy today?

You're living off of that mutual benefit- they paid their dues and most of them are still paying. You believe public policy should be determined by your bias- otherwise why make a point of telling older bay ridge residents they should move en masse to Florida? Why say things like "The elderly resist change?" Are you now going to claim to be an expert in the science of aging? You have such a flattened outlook and shallow understanding of society and people that you can't even figure out what you're saying.

Posted by: lurker in the mist at September 10, 2008 3:39 PM

Lurker,

It seems then that you support the notion of property rights and the free market system, and would applaud any of your elderly comrades who choose to sell their homes so that they can be redeveloped with higher density housing. Why do we argue?

"You have no idea what you're talking about and your last post proves that you're desperately trying to backpedal on comments here and those you've made previously. For someone who claims to believe in the importance of intergenerational dependence, you've made more than one agrument against that, both subtly and not so subtly."

I have far more important things in my life to deal with than you. You ascribe far too much importance to this minor distraction.

"What you are describing is not the majority of elderly Americans but it would also serve you better to remember that without the contributions of previous generations- in both war and peace- you wouldn't exist."

What a joke. What precisely has your generation contributed? A decaying subway system? Failing to maintain century old buildings? How about huge social security obligations? The incredible cost of health care? What about those great housing projects scattered around the city?

I'm sorry, but when I look at the world - I see a civilization in decline during which time the Greatest Generation and the Baby Boomers have been at the helm now for a half century.

Past generations have given me nothing but high taxes and inferior public services. At least I can afford a 110-year old slum. Thanks.

"Sorry pal- being young doesn't entitle any of us to anything other than the possibility of growing old. All you are is an elderly person with a little less mileage and a lot less experience."

1) Being old doesn't entitle you to a neighborhood that never changes. It also doesn't entitle you to a huge portion of my income, which you yourself never had to pay.

2) Despite your "experience" you obviously fail to recognize the terrible, disastrous errors perpetuated by your generation - of which zoning laws are just one part.

Posted by: Polemicist at September 10, 2008 3:45 PM

East New York:

1. 4,000 people is nothing. 4,000 people die every day in this country for no reason at all. 312 people died during one battle in Brooklyn during the Revolutionary War when the whole country had a population half that of New York City today.

2. See any modern urban war of the past century.

Posted by: Polemicist at September 10, 2008 3:55 PM

Over development is not the answer to affordability."

You obviously know nothing of economics. Supply and demand. Read up on it.

Poley, I damn well understand supply and demand...I also understand, constructing a crappy, ugly building doesn't necessarily fill a demand. Nor does development necessarily fill a demand for affordable housing (as you had requested in an earlier post).

I'd love to comment some more and hate to do it in drips and draps, but I have work to do unlike you who is probably trolling the streets to see which senior you're going to push over.

Posted by: bayridgegirl at September 10, 2008 4:08 PM

omigod- now the truth comes out. Polemicist, whatever mistakes earlier generations may have made, they also made great contributions. But who can argue with someone like you who feels so entitled to everything in life that the fact the only thing he can afford is a 110 year old slum makes him angry. Have to blame someone for your problems? blames yourself and all the rest like you who feel everyone owes them something.

"Past generations have given me nothing but high taxes and inferior public services. At least I can afford a 110-year old slum. Thanks."

The world is what it is. Every generation inherited from the past. Do you really think baby boomers had it so much easier? Or the generation before? Let's see: WW II, the Korean war, The Vietnam War- gee, yeah- those guys were really having a ball in life. Everything is built on the past. The bad and the good. Until you understnad the concept of history you'll just remain the whiny little guy on the blog complaining that "old" people cramp his style.. You think you're the only one paying taxes? You blame the elderly for higher health care? How about blaming your group- the corporate greed types for that. Greed knows no age.

I dread to think the kind of society we would be again if we went back to the every man for himself idea. first up- you won't get my taxes. I need the money myself. Don't drive, so screw your roads (and your bike lanes.), you're sick? Awwwww. Too bad. You're homeless? Gee- you should been rich. Yeah- we could go back to being a heartless, soul less, society run by the number crunchers and the young whippersnappers who think life's all about them. But then- what'll you do when you get old poley? Don't come knocking on my door for help. Call me you've contributed something to society rather than trying to suck it dry.

"I have far more important things in my life to deal with than you. You ascribe far too much importance to this minor distraction." So why keep answering? In fact, why did you bother to bring it up?

Posted by: lurker in the mist at September 10, 2008 4:10 PM

I loved the old people in Bay Ridge. They are walking history books and I find their inability to hold their tounges charming and shocking all at the same time. I find that Brooklyn seniors have more energy and more vigor. For example when I was preggers with my second child, my 85 year old neighbor asked me to come get her if I ever needed anything from the supermarket and she'll go get it for me. She also took in my garbage pails because I couldn't get out to take them in before lunch time.

She also drinks a gin and tonic every day at five. I just love her and hope that when I'm that age I have that kind of energy.

Posted by: italiana71 at September 10, 2008 4:12 PM

"4,000 people is nothing."

You commented that Lurker will require God's help if and when America faced a protracted war. I thnk five years qualifies as "protracted."

Despite your opinion that "4,000 people is nothing," (a view apparently shared by the current administration), I believe the statistic appropriately answers your qestion to Lurker: "Why on earth would the youth of American [sic] defend someone like you?" Obviously 4,000 people - for a variety of reasons - have seen fit to give their lives on behalf of people like Lurker, myself, and even you, a person who is indifferent to the senseless deaths of thousands of young people and to the contributions of those who came before him.

"What precisely has your generation contributed?"

- Civil rights movement
- Roe Vs. Wade
- Women's rights movement
- Gay rights movement
- Interstate highway system
- Development of lower Manhattan
- First black people and women on U.S. Supreme Court
- Landing a man on the moon
- Fall of the Berlin Wall
- End of colonial rule in India under Ghandi

That's just a few of the things positive, forward-thinking people have accomplishedin the last 60-80 years. What exactly have you accomplished in a fraction of that time?

Posted by: East New York at September 10, 2008 4:16 PM

"4,000 people is nothing." Really. polemicist. Funny- I would bet those 4000 young, strong people would far prefer to have died defending the elderly than defending the young jerk who posted that. (And dare I mention the tens of thousands of war wounded?)

You are really an ignorant, shallow, self-centered asshole. You have absolutely no redeeming qualities that could ever make anyone mistake you for a human being. Well, as they say, you can put lipstick on a pig but it's still a pig. Try Revlon, poley- they might have just your shade.

Posted by: lurker in the mist at September 10, 2008 4:18 PM

Thanks ENY, we won't even mention music. P, you still listening to the Andrews Sisters?

P, also, you should look up S/S taxes. You'll find that the Boomer generation is paying far more than previous generations. I remember when I paid like nothing.

Posted by: denton at September 10, 2008 4:29 PM

apologies to everyone but polemicist for losing my temper on that one. (But he's still an asshole.)

Adding to that, with a little more of an extended timeline:
The artificial Heart
transplant surgery
Peace Corp.
The ecology movement
the internet

Posted by: lurker in the mist at September 10, 2008 4:29 PM

Pole, it was more like 3000 soldiers died at the Battle of Brooklyn to the 30,000 British.

They died fighting for their rights to live in a society that eventually allowed asshats like yourself be born and roam the internet (nice addition Lurker).

Since you're blaming past generations for your current woes, why don't we go back to August 27, 1776. Those dudes we're total losers, right?

Posted by: Action Jackson at September 10, 2008 5:03 PM

- Civil rights movement

Yet, average income and literacy have declined amongst the descendants of slaves. Conversely, incarceration rates, antisocial behavior, and substance abuse are all much greater. We champion civil rights, but ignore how the average black man is much worse off today than he was 40 years ago.

- Roe Vs. Wade

Well, it certainly worked wonders to reduce the population of said descendants of slaves. It also did wonders to kill our birth rate so we had to import tens of millions of foreigners. There is also the minor issue that tens of millions of your fellow citizens consider it to be murder.

- Women's rights movement

Yet women are unhappier than ever with over 1/4 of all women taking an antidepressant at some time in their lives. I'm still a bit fuzzy about what "rights" women have secured since the right to vote - something that happened before the Greatest Generation was born. Maybe you can enlighten me.

- Gay rights movement

Ok, so sodomy is no longer illegal, but brothels are. Sex is still quite the battleground.

- Interstate highway system

You mean, the very same system that will soon become useless as the price of fuel skyrockets? The very same system that created suburbs that will become economically unfeasible when people can no longer afford to drive to work?

- Development of lower Manhattan

Umm, the stuff down there seems pretty old to me.

- First black people and women on U.S. Supreme Court

A lot of good that has done us.

- Landing a man on the moon

Werner Von Braun would be proud. Oh wait, he wasn't from this country.

- Fall of the Berlin Wall

And how precisely did Communists take over half of Europe? I thought the British Empire, an empire that controlled 1/4 of the world's population and land mass, went to war against Germany, a country the size of Texas with 60 million people to save Poland. Whatever happened to that, anyway? I'm glad the Berlin wall fell, but we're neglecting to mention that the only thing World War II did was wipe our competitors for a few decades.

- End of colonial rule in India under Ghandi

I am no fan of the British Empire, but is India really such a great place now? Last time I checked, they were still operating 19th century steam engines given to them by the British. I think they renamed Victoria Station in Bombay, or whatever they call it now.

Many of the things you mention, I do support and I am happy they have happened. My point is merely that while on paper they sound great, they haven't helped the average person all that much.

Posted by: Polemicist at September 10, 2008 5:22 PM

Lurker,

You are a typical modern nihilist unfortunately, right down to the pithy insults and your obsession with military service and the fallen (truly, does any noble person want to die as an old man asleep in bed? Be happy for them). We obviously have different value systems. The question is, which will endure? I'm going to leave you one of my favorite quotes by Friedrich Nietzsche. Maybe you'll ponder it a bit.

Whether it is hedonism or pessimism, utilitarianism or eudaemonism - all these ways of thinking that measure the value of thing in accordance with pleasure and pain , which are mere epiphenomena and wholly secondary, are ways of thinking that stay in the foreground and naivetes on which everyone conscious of creative powers and an artistic conscience will look down not without derision, nor without pity. Pity with you - that, of course, is not pity in your sense: it is not pity with social "distress", with "society" and its sick and unfortunate members, with those addicted to vice and maimed from the start, though the ground around us is littered with them; it is even less pity with grumbling, sorely pressed, rebellious slave strata who long for dominion, calling it "freedom". Our pity is a higher and more farsighted pity: we see how man makes himself smaller, how you make him smaller - and there are moments when we behold your very pity with indescribable anxiety, when we resist this pity - when we find your seriousness more dangerous than any frivolity. You want, if possible - and there is no more insane "if possible" - to abolish suffering . And we? It really seems that we would rather have it higher and worse than ever. Well-being as you understand it - that is no goal, that seems to us an end , a state that soon makes man ridiculous and contemptible - that makes his destruction desirable .

The discipline of suffering, of great suffering - do you not know that only this discipline has created all enhancements of man so far? That tension of the soul in unhappiness which cultivates its strength, its shudders face to face with great ruin. its inventiveness and courage in enduring, persevering, interpreting and exploiting suffering and whatever has been granted to it of profundity, secret, mask, spirit, cunning, greatness - was it not granted to it through suffering, through the discipline of great suffering? In man creature and creator are united: in man there is material, fragment, excess, clay, dirt, nonsense, chaos; but in man there is also creator, form giver, hammer, hardness, spectator divinity, and seventh day: do you understand this contrast? And that your pity is for the "creature in man". for what must be formed, broken, forged, torn, burnt, made incandescent, and purified - that which necessarily man and should suffer? And our pity - do you not comprehend for whom our converse pity is when it resists your pity as the worst of all pamperings and weaknesses?

Thus it is pity versus pity.

But to say it once more: there are higher problems than all problems of pleasure. pain. and pity; and every philosophy that stops with them is naive.

Posted by: Polemicist at September 10, 2008 5:30 PM

Poley, OMG!!!!
God help us all, if this is the thought process of my generation. Poley, I hope you're a 12 year old kid.

Are you a US Citizen? If not, please go back to the country you came from. If you are a citizen, please consider leave this country. Seriously, if you are so unhappy with all the progress, culture, economics, politics, policies, people, etc. maybe you need to find a country to live in that is more suited to your ideals.

Posted by: bayridgegirl at September 10, 2008 5:37 PM

"(You are a typical modern nihilist unfortunately, right down to the pithy insults and your obsession with military service and the fallen (truly, does any noble person want to die as an old man asleep in bed? Be happy for them).)"

Well, if you think their lot in life is so great, why don't you try it? Honestly, of all the stupid, utterly moronic statements you have uttered on this blog- and there's been plenty- this has got to take the cake. And since I don't see you signing up to go to Iraq to die anytime soon, I hardly think you speak for them or their families.

One of the interesting things about you poley is that you really think you have a handle on everything. So I'm a typical modern nihilist, eh? Well, beside the fact I don't think you really understand the term, I have no obsession with military service or the fallen other than to acknowledge their service and respectit.

You, on the other hand are a narcissist, and a spoiled, self-entitled little twit who feels he owes nothing to anyone but everyone owes you. Where did you grow up? In a band of hyenas? You seem to have some very sociopathic tendencies as evidenced by your surreal disconnect from the most basic understanding of human interaction. (Puhlease don't throw Nietzsche at me- or at least use relevant quotes, and concepts you really understand).

"But to say it once more: there are higher problems than all problems of pleasure. pain. and pity; and every philosophy that stops with them is naive" List 'em, baby. Convince me that someone with your simplistic view of life is able to do more than write a trite, meaningless statement like that in a failed attempt to impress me with your intellectual and ethical depths. It ain't working except to show me you've scraped the bottom of the mental barrel.

Posted by: lurker in the mist at September 10, 2008 5:48 PM

Jackson:

1. Not to nitpick, but I do live right by the old stone house. check the wikipedia article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Brooklyn#cite_note-2 You might be confusing total casualties with the actual deaths.

2. I place most blame on the generation that was born before or during the depression as well as the baby boomers. Past generations generally were much more self reliant and did not project their own personal wants onto future generations.

denton:

I've always preferred more traditional jazz to the popularized versions.

Posted by: Polemicist at September 10, 2008 5:48 PM

I'd prefer to use the written source, Battle of Brooklyn by John Gallagher. Wiki can be very wrong, remember.

Also try giving Green-Wood Cemetery a call or The Old Stone House, as they commemorate the Battle each August. I think they'll back me up.

Posted by: Action Jackson at September 10, 2008 5:56 PM

"Yet, average income and literacy have declined amongst the descendants of slaves. Conversely, incarceration rates, antisocial behavior, and substance abuse are all much greater. We champion civil rights, but ignore how the average black man is much worse off today than he was 40 years ago."

What is your source material for this (mis)information? Are you actually attempting to claim that the "average black man" was better off under state-mandated segregation than he is today? You're wrong (again).

"Yet women are unhappier than ever with over 1/4 of all women taking an antidepressant at some time in their lives."

According to whom? Again, please share your source material for this ignorant and uninformed assertion.

"You mean, the very same system that will soon become useless as the price of fuel skyrockets? The very same system that created suburbs that will become economically unfeasible when people can no longer afford to drive to work?"

Yes, the same system that makes it possible to drive from one end of this very large country to the other, something that was very difficult and took much more time 50-60 years ago, but of course, you weren't around then, and you don't have much of an insight into the country's development, so I'm not too surprised you wouldn't know about that.

"Umm, the stuff down there seems pretty old to me."

That's because you're a young fool who for some reason believes that only things built in your lifetime are valuable. You weren't around (as I was) when large swaths of lower Manhattan (including the entire area around the WTC complex) were undeveloped and - to use a favorite Brownstoner word - sketchy.

"A lot of good that has done us."

Quite a lot of good, from where I sit, but I wouldn't be surprised a person like you to is uable to understand that.

"I am no fan of the British Empire, but is India really such a great place now?"

Why don't you ask a native Indian whose parents suffered under British rule? Again, smeone as ignorant as you wouldn't know anything about that.

Despite what you say, you don't sound like you're happy about the achievements I mentioned. In fact, you've made it a point to disparage most of them. But again, I wouldn't expect less from a shallow, ignorant person like you.

Posted by: East New York at September 10, 2008 6:50 PM

"Yet women are unhappier than ever with over 1/4 of all women taking an antidepressant at some time in their lives."

According to whom? Again, please share your source material for this ignorant and uninformed assertion.

"Umm, the stuff down there seems pretty old to me."

"A lot of good that has done us."

Quite a lot of good, from where I sit, but I wouldn't be surprised a person like you to is uable to understand that.

"I am no fan of the British Empire, but is India really such a great place now?"

Why don't you ask a native Indian whose parents suffered under British rule? Again, smeone as ignorant as you wouldn't know anything about that.

Posted by: East New York at September 10, 2008 6:50 PM

lurker:

You've provided nothing of substance to debate or discuss. Certainly, your many vitriolic insults prove you are either insane or delusional. I would reflect carefully on this matter - clearly, you are concerned about your legacy and lot in life. Directing such rage towards an anonymous poster on a real estate related website is not going to make your life any better. It certainly won't stop the progress that so clearly deeply disturbs you.

East New York:

In regards to my comments regarding civil rights, I would direct you many of Thomas Sowell's books. He discusses these very issues in much depth with more citations than you are probably inclined to verify. Unfortunately, I am right. This doesn't mean I prefer a past where segregation could be allowed, only that such a change has not created a world of free ice cream and eternal sunshine for the average black man. The generations I am criticizing had very little to do with the major civil rights advancements of the 1950s and 1960s, they did however have a lot to do with the many destructive social programs that created a net detriment.

As for the happiness rate of women, the medical journals that discuss such drug use rates are not publicly available (check medline someday if you know someone with a subscription). If I come across it, I will try to provide it for you in the future.

My point regarding highways is they should never have been built. They do not in fact offer superior travel time in comparison with trains and require far more maintenance. As an example of travel time, my grandmother is from a small town near the Canadian border. Back in the 1930s, she would take the train from our fine city to Montreal where her father would pick her up and drive her back to her home town. You know how long that train ride was? 5 hours. You could never drive there that fast, and the train today takes 12 hours.

The big issue of course is the dependence on oil, which is increasingly becoming a scarce commodity. The finite nature of oil was well known even in the 1960s, and was one of the chief reasons for World War II. It was incredibly foolish to waste untold trillions of dollars building such a system that provided no net benefit in terms of commerce and really only allowed for the creation of many suburbs. We like to think the highway system is impressive, and perhaps from a technical standpoint it is, but ultimately it is in fact an albatross around our necks that will make it even more difficult to cope with the coming resource scarcity.

As for India, I've know more than a few Indians - many of whom are greater anglophiles than me. The British Raj did much to improve the standard of living in that country, and ended many barbaric practices, most notably the caste system. Many schools were built, a train system was created. Until the past decade - most aspects of modernity in India were relics of British colonial rule. I wasn't kidding about using 100-year old steam engines.

India has been ruled by different foreign invaders since the days of Alexander the Great. I don't think any of them are particularly worse than the other. What I do know is India today is not really much different than it was under the British Raj. If there is no difference, who is to say one system is better than the other? Also, I have been to India.

Considering how many different concepts I've brought up regarding this simple issue of multifamily development in Bay Ridge, do you really think I'm shallow? I do find it amusing how so many Brownstoner posters fail so miserably at crafting poignant insults.

If you are so certain in your beliefs and values, what is the harm in defending them? Why must your detractor be immediately labeled with so many simplistic pejoratives?

I think my problem with most grand plans of the 1960s, whether it's zoning laws or civil rights related legislation, is all these things were supposed to make the world a better place. It really hasn't, and many ways the world is worse. It is time to revisit these creeds and consider new ways that preserve the freedoms gained but makes the country better for everyone.

Posted by: Polemicist at September 11, 2008 10:32 AM

polemicist- you may not have noticed but quite a few posters took issue with your many and varied stupidities. You keep trying to pass yourself off as an intellect and yet you persist in posting some of the most ignorant drivel I've ever read.

"(truly, does any noble person want to die as an old man asleep in bed? Be happy for them)." this is your comment on deaths in Iraq- this is your assessment of what makes a man noble- that they die young? In that case, I'm sure you'll live to a ripe old age.

Posted by: lurker in the mist at September 11, 2008 8:37 PM

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September 10, 2008

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