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September 26, 2008

Not Just BJs for Red Hook, But a Whole Mall

redhookikea_0908.jpg
If there was any question left about the suburbanization of Brooklyn (see Atlantic Center, IKEA, Costco), it will be answered by the creation of a Red Hook mall. Turns out, developer Joe Sitt of Thor Equities doesn't want to just bring BJ's to the waterfront but a whole six-story shopping center. Well, at least the vision is mixed-use and includes some adaptive reuse, too. The Brooklyn Paper says Thor wants "to renovate a historic warehouse on the former Revere sugar refinery; erect several new buildings for shopping, parking and housing; and create a 40-feet-wide public esplanade by 2011 along the water’s edge of the Beard Street property next door to the recently opened IKEA." How do these developers — see Thor, Ratner, even Toll Brothers — have so much power over such historic and important Brooklyn sites, especially the waterfronts? (Also, yes, the Brooklyn Paper continues with the double entendre headlines.)
Hookers to Get BJs in Mall [The Brooklyn Paper]
Thor's Red Hook Plans Come Into Sharper Focus [Curbed]
Red Hook Ikea. Photo by masck.




Posted by lisa at 10:05 AM | Comments (28)
Categories: Development, Red Hook

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"How do these developers — see Thor, Ratner, even Toll Brothers — have so much power over such historic and important Brooklyn sites, especially the waterfronts?"

Is it called owning the land?

Posted by: denton at September 26, 2008 10:10 AM

The Brooklyn Paper delivers again and again!!!

Posted by: SlopeBuppie at September 26, 2008 10:12 AM

Nice view.

Posted by: DOW8000SP800 at September 26, 2008 10:12 AM

i understand it will be a strip mall.

Posted by: z at September 26, 2008 10:25 AM

Lisa;

Please educate us as to what is "historic and important" about a former sugar refinery site that sat fallow in a dilapated state for about 20 years. Did you find any part of that refinery to have some aesthetic value?

I would also be curious to hear your suggestion as to what should be done to remedy the problem you perceive. Are you advocating that the city add yet another review step into the development process? What effect would it have on development costs, in a city that already has the highest construction costs in the nation.

Posted by: benson at September 26, 2008 12:11 PM

I think that everyone who doesn't like Red Hook development must be shipbuilders and marine welders and such. There's always a lot of talk about bringing back the waterfront to what it used to be and not to lose that important economic aspect of NYC.

If this is the case, then these shipbuilders and other folks skilled in the marine industry must be pretty hungry by now. Or they just realized these activities simply moved elsewhere.

Posted by: tybur6 at September 26, 2008 12:30 PM

By the way... I actually think the Ikea aesthetic (including their little park with the crane and other remnants) has turned out to be quite nice and fitting for that part of the city. But maybe I just like big blue things and path to stroll on.

Posted by: tybur6 at September 26, 2008 12:32 PM

There is active marine industry on the waterfront here. One criticism of Sitt's plan from Red Hook residents and the maritime industries here is that is to try to put residential here simply won't work because this is where the tugs that work up and down the NY waterfront are docked. They work 24 Hours a day and often have to utilize searchlights and foghorns in inclement weather. Something that will not mix with luxury condos. Develop the property; put in retail (though, please can't it not be cookie cutter big box?); put in restaurants, and recreation. But not residential.

Posted by: Combustiblegirl2 at September 26, 2008 12:35 PM

Have no fear Joe Sitt nor anyone else will be getting funding for a project like this...

Posted by: fsrg at September 26, 2008 12:40 PM

combustiblegirl2, that argument sounds disingenuous. is the opposition truly based on a concern that the future residents of luxury condos might be bothered by searchlights and foghorns? come on.

Posted by: z at September 26, 2008 1:00 PM

Great, let's convert NYC waterfront to resemble middle f*cking America. When is Walmart opening in Red Hook? Maybe we can start busing people in from the Suburbs so they can shop in our Mall wasteland.

What a waste of prime real estate. They're missing the ball on this one big time.

Posted by: bayridgegirl at September 26, 2008 1:42 PM

combustible, are you sure about those tug companies being in Red Hook? Or do the tugs just rest nearby? AFAIK the big tug companies either are or were on Richmand Terrace in SI. I just did a quick check on Moran, McAllister, Morania, and Bouchard. Not that I'm a fan of WalMart, but I bet the residents of Red Hook houses would be.

Posted by: denton at September 26, 2008 1:55 PM

Put a roof over all of red hook and then get every american chain there. By the way, what does BJ stand for?

Posted by: werner at September 26, 2008 2:04 PM

I'm wondering if I was the only one with a dirty enough mind to misread the meaning of "BJs for Red Hook" ;)

Someone call the Grammar Police, there's an apostrophe missing from the headline.

Posted by: brooklynjonny at September 26, 2008 2:24 PM

I can't believe we cannot think of anything better to do with our precious waterfront than give it over to big-box stores. The only good reason that Ikea should have been allowed on the waterfront was if they shipped their furniture directly to their door, but instead they truck all their stuff in from Jersey. There are plenty of other places to put big-box stores that are not on the waterfront of New York Harbor. But it seems that Joe Sitt is hell bent on turning as much of the Brooklyn waterfront as possible into his schlock mall developments.

Posted by: Left Hook at September 26, 2008 2:33 PM

combustiblegirl, I'm not advocating residential development, but the tugboats don't seem to bother the people living over Fairways.

Posted by: Left Hook at September 26, 2008 2:39 PM

left hook...I'm with you.

They couldn't figure out how to Dumbofy it, so they're going to turn it into NJ's RTE 17.

Posted by: bayridgegirl at September 26, 2008 2:46 PM

great big pieces of NY waterfront have been abandoned or turned in to a ghetto.

someone has to pay real money to change this. and, they have to be able to pay for it.

if you don't like stores, then don't shop there, but i don't think you can control it with regulation. just will end up with more blight.

Posted by: wine lover at September 26, 2008 3:20 PM

Speaking of living over Fairways, I would love to see what one of those apartments looks like. We've never had one as condo of the day. With those huge windows and first class views, I would imagine they are quite nice. So nice they don't ever get re-sold.

Any listings out there I could look at, just to satisfy my curiousity?

Posted by: Montrose Morris at September 26, 2008 3:36 PM

MM

http://curbed.com/archives/2007/11/15/live_from_red_hook_curbed_inside_the_fairway_building.php#more

Posted by: bayridgegirl at September 26, 2008 3:52 PM

"By the way... I actually think the Ikea aesthetic (including their little park with the crane and other remnants) has turned out to be quite nice and fitting for that part of the city. But maybe I just like big blue things and path to stroll on."

I don't know. I was over there the other day, and it's a sea of concrete and metal. Even the waterfront path is mostly 'rete, with a couple ship parts strewn in to mollify the oldtimers, I suppose.

I don't think Ikea could have done anything to satisfy me, though.

www.forgotten-ny.com

Posted by: Kevin Walsh at September 26, 2008 4:11 PM

Yes, those gray-painted statuesque shipping cranes touch my heart. Too bad they couldn't actually use them instead of turning them into keepsakes.

I'm a big fan of regulation. It keeps greedy people from destroying things for the rest of us. For example the current mess this country is in would not have happened with a little more regulation.

Posted by: Left Hook at September 26, 2008 4:48 PM

Sorry, let me clarify: the point is that the people who run the tug operation are worried they will be forced out if the waterfront is given over to luxury housing. They provide a necessary service and Erie Basin is one of the few protected inlets where the tugs can dock. (And yes Denton, I'm sure there's a tug operation stationed there. I live in the neighborhood and I've been to the CB6 meetings with these guys, plus if you spend any time along the waterfront there you can see them at work). The point is it's an important maritime service and they're worried that they will get pushed out because of the disturbance the residents might view them as. The Fairway units are rental. The owner is Greg O'Connell and since he is generally supportive of keeping the working character of Red Hook even as it gets developed, I don't think it's the same issue as someone trying to sell high end condos. Also teh Fairway building is on the harbor/buttermilk channel and not within Erie Basin.

Posted by: Combustiblegirl2 at September 26, 2008 5:40 PM

WalMart...now that sounds like a great idea. I'd bet that Brooklyn's first WalMart will be in this area.

Posted by: Big Jugs at September 26, 2008 7:46 PM

I wonder how many Red Hook residents work on the tug boats or the docks?

Posted by: Chaka at September 26, 2008 8:00 PM

Even if the big-box stores aren't the perfect addition to the waterfront, they're still better than having the neighborhood continue to decay, as it has ever since the highway cut it off from "the mainland".

Empty, grass-filled lots... broken fences covered in graffiti... couple of rehabilitated spots here & there (Pioneer Street), but mostly Depression-style disuse and disarray. It's been like this for... how long?

I'm not a fan of big-box retail either. I would much rather see a waterfront park, small independent shops, a "nightlife street", and some nice to-scale residential development.

But... in a neighborhood without a subway line, and not the most convenient car/foot commute either, AND without any redeeming qualities aside from "the view", who would have the money to invest in the kind of massive reclamation that's required to kick-start an entire area like that?

wine_lover is right - "someone has to pay real money to change this. and, they have to be able to pay for it."

So, despite the "it would be nice if" factor, it seems that the likes of Joe Sitt and Ikea will control the neighborhood.

C'est la vie.

"I, for one, welcome our retail overlords." (C) Kent Brockman.

Posted by: brooklynjonny at September 26, 2008 8:12 PM

That you think that Red Hook has no redeeming qualities and that you are not aware of the fact that the area has already been reclaimed to some extent shows that you don't live in Red Hook and are barely even acquainted with the neighborhood as it exists today.

Luckily, Red Hook is full of people who are much less willing to allow the Joe Sitts of the world to take over the waterfront.

Posted by: Left Hook at September 26, 2008 11:52 PM

I'm sick of luxury condos going up everywhere, and then residents complaining about the noise or the lack of amenities or the views not to their liking. As combustiblegirl2 says, the tug operations are necessary. It's irrelevant to wonder how many Red Hook residents work there- what's your point? jobs are jobs.

Greg O'Connell has always tried to strike a balance, and if the present collapse of the financial market has taught us anything, it should be to value all the businesses NYC has- or used to have. Maybe if we had worked harder to keep our industry, we wouldn't be taking such a hit now.

Posted by: bxgrl at September 27, 2008 8:02 PM

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