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September 22, 2008

House of the Day: 147 St. James Place

We wrote about 147 St. James Place in Clinton Hill in November 2006 when it had a tasty price tag of $800,000 but wasn't getting sold; turns out there were major issues with SRO tenants that were holding things up. The four-story house finally changed hands for $995,000 last January, and the new owner wasted no time in getting cracking on a full-scale renovation. While we love the fact that he managed to preserve the killer detail on the parlor floor, we're not so sure that aesthetic was carried out through the rest of the house. We wish the listing had included a photo of the rear facade which was completely ripped open and redone. (Anyone with a view care to send in a photo?) Anyway, the ask on the house is now $1,950,000. Seems like a stretch to us, though we wouldn't mind seeing that kind of comp just a couple of blocks from our house!
147 St. James Place [Corcoran] GMAP P*Shark
HOTD: 147 St. James Place [Brownstoner]

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According to StreetEasy, the house everyone here seemed to hate on Berkeley Place (108) has gone to contract.

http://www.brownstoner.com/brownstoner/archives/2008/08/open_house_pick_196.php

Posted by: 11217 at September 22, 2008 1:30 PM

I'm as big a Clinton Hill booster as you will find and I know this price is seriously out of line.

Posted by: wasder at September 22, 2008 1:34 PM

A 2 million dollar house with a 20k kitchen.
I don't understand how people can justify such a high price tag with such a medicore renovation.

Posted by: bayridgegirl at September 22, 2008 1:35 PM

Not in a million years

Posted by: itsagas at September 22, 2008 1:35 PM

what is the square footage on this place?

Posted by: Paluka at September 22, 2008 1:36 PM

I think Equatorial Guinea is a marvelous place to raise a family. helluva commute, tho.

Posted by: stoep2conquer at September 22, 2008 1:37 PM

I hate that edge detail on the kitchen counter, it's 'Dyker Mansion'

Posted by: bayridgegirl at September 22, 2008 1:38 PM

Man, I'm amazed that sellers are blithely disregarding the current economic turmoil - do they really think NYC will be unscathed?

Posted by: Miss Muffett at September 22, 2008 1:44 PM

When are people going to learn that you don't put marble in a kitchen; especially white marble? It'll eventually discolor with all the stains. That said, there are thousands of $1.9 MM condos in Manhattan with far, far worse kitchens.

You should put up the "discount-to-ask survey" for this one!!!!

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at September 22, 2008 1:45 PM

I don't understand, Miss Muffet...do you think the sellers should price the house at 10 bucks?

Houses are still selling. Not EVERYONE works on Wall Street.

In fact, the two houses that were sold on my block this past year were to non-finance industry people.

Just because we are in an economic crisis (a severe one, no less) does not mean that all of the sudden the day after, home prices halve.

It took a year for the U.S. housing median price to come down 15%.

Posted by: 11217 at September 22, 2008 2:01 PM

Those former SRO tenants should get a piece of that 195.

Posted by: DOW8000SP800 at September 22, 2008 2:15 PM

now your sounding like Polemicist DOW!!!!

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at September 22, 2008 2:19 PM

Don't be silly, DOW.

This is America.

Only the losses are socialized.

Posted by: SnarkSlope at September 22, 2008 2:22 PM

11217 no offense but I think what Ms Muffet was alluding to was that economic times are getting tougher and with all the stuff happening on Wall street overpricing a property is not realistic.
I am sure you are a concerned home owner but the fact remains that THIS house is woefully overpriced.
Your comment "Houses are still selling. Not EVERYONE works on Wall Street" is true but really a poor argument since the question is HOW MANY houses are selling, @ what rates (i.e time on market) and @what prices? I believe the answer to all 3 questions is relatively low overall.
"In fact, the two houses that were sold on my block this past year were to non-finance industry people" Again this is purely anecdotal evidence and only marginally relevant to the overall discussion about RE and Wall street. Peace

Posted by: pierre de taille at September 22, 2008 2:40 PM

11217 - of course I don't expect houses to sell for $10, nor to be halved overnight. But the buyer pool is shrinking pretty dramatically as credit dries up, people lose jobs, and the effects of the crisis ripple through the economy. People with cash are in a great position but just about everyone else is in a much more tenuous one when it comes to buying an expensive piece of property, and the pool of cash-flush buyers is likely to be small and getting smaller. I'm not predicting the sky will fall, just that sellers should be more realistic in their pricing. My personal prediction is a drop of about 20% over the next year or two, even in prime areas, but given the surprises on Wall St, it could be more. But even at that level of drop, most sellers would still make a killing unless it's a recent flip. I just don't get those sellers who act as if nothing has changed. Yes, people still need houses but every broker I've spoken to says that property values - yes, even in NYC - are bound to feel an effect from all that's happening.

Posted by: Miss Muffett at September 22, 2008 2:44 PM

pierre - i think 11217 was responding to the vagueness of miss muffett's posting which had nothing to say specific to THIS house and made no attempt to relate the "current turmoil" to the pricing of THIS particular home. in fact, 11217's "anecdotal evidence" may have more relevance to THIS home than does your "overall discussion" about Wall Street. while your 3 questions indeed are the important ones, 11217 gets closer to answering them than does your *belief* as to what the answers are.

so, back to THIS house. if it is woefully overpriced, why? and by how much? what is the right price?

Posted by: i disagree at September 22, 2008 2:52 PM

"Your comment "Houses are still selling. Not EVERYONE works on Wall Street" is true but really a poor argument since the question is HOW MANY houses are selling, @ what rates (i.e time on market) and @what prices? I believe the answer to all 3 questions is relatively low overall."

Just so you know...the rate at which homes sold this past year (which was a 22 percent drop in sales over the year before) is still ahead of the number of sales for much of the previous couple decades.

So your answer low overall should be changed to low since 2001.

At least I provided anecdotal evidence, which is more evidence than I saw in your post. No offense.

Posted by: 11217 at September 22, 2008 2:59 PM

I just want the parlor. I just want the parlor. Ok- I'll settle for just the pier mirror.

But the kitchen- no, thank you.

Posted by: east river at September 22, 2008 3:02 PM

i disagree- please read Ms Muffetts post above I think she may have posted while you were still writing er expectorating your response.
Now my "belief" is actually not only mine but the evidence in the most recent reports...Miller Samuel, NY.gov, etc. Read a little more and you will see for yourself.
Now to answer your question about the house I went to the open house and as others have said the renovation is decent but nowhere near the kind of finishes $1.9m buys .i.e bathroom fixtures and the kitchens are all sub par for that kind of $$. IMHO a fair price today will be $1.6m max and thats being generous and not taking the "current turmoil" into consideration.
11217 We were comparing last 2 or 3 years to present not 2 decades ago. Two decades ago RE was basically dead. And please remember my dear we mean no malice or offense towards you. This house is simply priced as if the seller is on fentanyl....haha

Posted by: pierre de taille at September 22, 2008 3:30 PM

East river you can find a pier mirror like that for no more than $600 @ a Paris flea market but the shipping can be pricey. We agree the kitchen leaves much to be desired and one can do better for $20K in a $1.9million house :)

Posted by: pierre de taille at September 22, 2008 3:37 PM

Most of the homes I read about here which are said to be overpriced, end up selling for very close to the asking price. I don't necessarily understand it either, but apparently brownstones are very sought after right now.

108 Berkeley Place was denounced for being overpriced here on August 8 when it was an open house of the week, and it sold in a little over a month.

Posted by: 11217 at September 22, 2008 3:39 PM

pierre- I think 1.6mil for this house is being generous. There will be no bonuses on Wall Street this year. Which has an enormous impact on the NY economy. Although, we all don't work on Wall Street, everyone will be effected.

Now as for this house. Someone tell me, what sort of buyer is in the market for this house?
All buyer profiles for a 1.9million dollar house, are feeling very nervous today.

Posted by: 7andfive at September 22, 2008 3:48 PM

I think the biggest drawback to this house is the layout. Does an owner really want to spend $1.95MM for two (not very beautifully renovated) floors plus a basement, and have two tenant apts above?

And at this price, I don't think most folks would be inclined to reconfigure the space, which would be expensive.

Posted by: tinarina at September 22, 2008 3:57 PM

"Someone tell me, what sort of buyer is in the market for this house?"

Someone who has a lot of equity in their current home or apartment and wants to move to a house in Brooklyn.
My boss (arts related) bought her apartment for $200K twenty years ago. It's now worth 3 million or so. Perhaps someone like her...?

Posted by: 11217 at September 22, 2008 4:00 PM

I harp on this alot 11217...there's so much more Manhattan money like that with huge gains in condos. You cross the river and its like going to another country where the Manhattan dollar buys so much more. Taxes are much lower too.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at September 22, 2008 4:04 PM

11217- perhaps a buyer like your boss. But most people that have held on to a brownstone for 20 years are not trading it in for another brownstone. There's a reason they've been there for 20 years. More than likely the 20 year owner would sell for retirement or to downsize.

Now for other 99.9% of owners that may have purchased within the last 5-7 years they are going to have problems selling as well. And more than likely have a lot less equity for a down payment than they originally thought. So that sort of buying will probably be staying put- minus any major life changes like unemployment.

Posted by: 7andfive at September 22, 2008 4:05 PM

"11217- perhaps a buyer like your boss. But most people that have held on to a brownstone for 20 years are not trading it in for another brownstone"

She does not own a brownstone. She owns a 3 bedroom apartment on the Upper West Side and oftentimes talks about wanting to own a brownstone, but can't afford one in Manhattan. The prices on the uws in her neighborhood are around 5-8 million for a similar brownstone you'd find in Brooklyn.

Posted by: 11217 at September 22, 2008 4:14 PM

The issue is not what sold last month (i.e. Clinton Hill in August 2008) - but what will sell now. (It's like comparing security concerns in the pre-9/11 world to post - when perceptions and risk factors on every possible level changed). And in order for a home like this to sell, you have to assume that there will be buyers able to obtain a large line of credit from a failing bank system (at least $1.5 MM). They exist, but like me, we're holding out for something better. Although I like some of the original detail, I also have to agree that the renovation does not hold up and in no way justifies a $1 Million gain for what may increasingly revert to a neighborhod with less services, limited access to transportation and potentially higher crime rates. I have to believe that the sellers have been advised to price REALLY high and that their hope would be to make a meagre $500,000 return from Jan. 2007. Not bad for a $20,000 investment in a kitchen (which I'm sure they love...) and a coat of fresh paint.

Posted by: HellsBelles at September 22, 2008 4:23 PM

hellsbelles, if you really think that a renovation -- even an unremarkable one -- involves nothing more than $20k and a coat of fresh paint, then you haven't the faintest idea of what is required to renovate/restore a brownstone. this is a former sro, which means the overhaul must have been pretty massive. and did you miss the part about ripping open the rear facade?

kudos on bringing 9/11 into the discussion, though. i'm sure rudy would be proud.

Posted by: z at September 22, 2008 4:39 PM

HellsBelles: I take exception to this part of your post: "what may increasingly revert to a neighborhod with less services, limited access to transportation and potentially higher crime rates."

Where are you getting your info from? To say this location has limited access to transportation is ludicrous. This house is located within a five minute walk of both the C and the G trains (in between the Clinton Washington stop of each line) and, having lived for seven years within a few blocks of this location I can testify that this is a very good location for transportation. Secondly, I find no reason, anecdotally or on the ground, for your assertion that there will be fewer services or higher crime rates in Clinton Hill. Please cite some sources or don't make such crazily sweeping statements that are not factually accurate.

Posted by: wasder at September 22, 2008 4:42 PM

Speaking of anecdotes and the UWS, I know a woman who sold a 1br coop on 74th and WEA and invested the proceeds in a 2br at 1 Hanson. She's a serious if amateur singer and she said the UWS is getting stodgy; people were complaining about her singing (not the UWS I fondly remember, when the UWS was artistic and the UES was bidness). She's very happy in Brooklyn, a much better vibe (she says).

Posted by: denton at September 22, 2008 4:47 PM

Z - gee, thanks for enlightening me (my reference to 20K followed 1:35 pm above, and I am sure we both benefitted greatly from your wisdom, although you seem to be unable to appreciate sarcasm). Unfortunately I am quite aware of what it costs to rehaul a brownstone, and in this case it looks like there is still much work to be done.

Posted by: HellsBelles at September 22, 2008 4:59 PM

Hells--no response to my query? I feel slighted (haha).

Posted by: wasder at September 22, 2008 5:06 PM

what remains to be done, aside from aesthetic changes to meet the buyer's tastes?

i will take you at your word that you were being sarcastic, although if that's the case then i don't understand how you can say that the sellers would be making a $500k profit even if they sold for a much lower price. they probably spent several hundred thousand on the reno; i would wager $300-500k (yes, even with the cheap kitchen). the front and rear facade work alone was probably $100k.

Posted by: z at September 22, 2008 5:08 PM

well wasder, he was right about the crime rate at least.there are more robberies this year in CH than in brownsville.

Posted by: buckfast at September 22, 2008 5:10 PM

it's asinine to say that kitchen cost only 20K.

it may not be to your taste, but no way it was 20K. i'm thinking double that.

Posted by: 11217 at September 22, 2008 5:38 PM

it is not asinine to say it is a 20k job, it is probably true. It is a cheapo job and that is pretty obvious. PC Richards special + some nasty cabinetry.
And woo, is it UGly! It is so depressing when people come in and do that. I would much rather get a house with a 60's kitchen so I would not feel guilty ripping out someone's work..

Posted by: offthegrid at September 22, 2008 5:51 PM

The appliances alone probably cost 10K.

You people are out of touch. Ikea kitchens can cost 20K and this is certainly better than that.

It's not my style either, but I'd be VERY surprised if it cost 20K.

Posted by: 11217 at September 22, 2008 5:55 PM

Wasder - I am getting my information from The New York Times and The Daily News - articles published in April and July 2008 about the crime wave in Clinton Hill:
Clinton Hill quaking in crime wave; cop shortage hurts situation (April 15, 2008) http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/brooklyn/2008/04/15/2008-04-15_clinton_hill_quaking_in_crime_wave_cop_s.html
Muggings Revive Memories of an Area’s Bad Old Days
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/05/nyregion/05muggings.html?scp=1&sq=clinton%20hill&st=nyt

Posted by: HellsBelles at September 22, 2008 6:23 PM

The kitchen is not that bad. Definetly more than 20k. It's a blank slate.

I don't get when people through out figures such as 20% or 40% drop in prices. Where do you come up with those figures? Are you picking numbers out of a hat? How about 17.375% drop in prices? It's just interesting to me that people are quoting percentages as if they are market experts.

FYI I don't own in brownstone brooklyn so I have no vested interest in this arguement.

Posted by: Adam Dahill at September 22, 2008 6:35 PM

Wasder I agree that services are bound to improve in Clinton Hill as is evidence by the slow but steady improvement on Fulton St. Transportation is another matter though; the G train as you very well know is severely limiting which only leaves the C. I am not sure about crime in the area but I've walked around that area lots of times including nights and it feels pretty safe to me. So as far as how all this will affect value (besides overall slowing) I am not sure.

Posted by: pierre de taille at September 22, 2008 6:55 PM

I'm the one that threw out 20K for the kitchen...I might be off, maybe 22K

Those are GE Profile appliances...I can spot the pulls, cause I hate them, they're frowning.

Refrigerator - $2000
Range - $1800
Dishwasher $1000
Hood (not sure who makes the hood) - $1600
sink (if they used GE Profile, I doubt they got anything elebrate) - $400
Sink Fittings (see sink) - $300
Kithen Cabinets - Photo shows about 23' of cabinet, even at $300 lineal foot (which this doesn't look like, looks cheaper) - that's about $7000 in cabinets

That's about 14K, plus counter, plumbing work and installation, yep, I'm at 20K to 22K.

Yes, the kitchen is not bad, but for a 2M $ house, you'd expect more and you should get better.

Posted by: bayridgegirl at September 22, 2008 7:17 PM

ooppps, forgot to add the light fixture, and the backsplash, cause you know they used premium quality products there.

Posted by: bayridgegirl at September 22, 2008 7:28 PM

"FYI I don't own in brownstone brooklyn so I have no vested interest in this arguement."

As a mortgage broker, Mr. Dahill, I'm pretty sure you have a vested interest in this argument, no?

Posted by: SnarkSlope at September 22, 2008 8:32 PM

Adam I was just going to point out what Snarkslope has succinctly indicated. Again it is your JOB to play down any predictions in price reductions...do you really believe that it doesn't matter to you and your profession what home prices are? Especially in Brooklyn? LOL trop drole. Tu me fais mare toi!

Posted by: pierre de taille at September 22, 2008 8:48 PM

Pierre -- do you regularly use the G train? It may not be obvious that the G can quite a workhorse with stops on Smith Street, linking to the A/C at Hoyt and linking to the L in Wmsburg with a quick shot into Manhattan on 14th St. A friend of mine that lives on South Portland calls it "the magic portal".

Posted by: Schultz at September 22, 2008 8:57 PM

Hellsbelles--thanks for linking to those articles. I remember looking at them when they first came out. I haven't seen any follow up to them recently so I don't know from a statistical standpoint whether those numbers have reduced but it feels like lack of news is good news on that front. At the same time I don't think that Clinton Hill was much different than a lot of parts of the city that reported an increase in street crime this summer. Clearly I am not unaware of the possibility of streetcrime but I have lived here since 01 and I have thankfully been fine and I feel more comfortable in this neighborhood than I have anywhere else I have lived in the city (East Village, Williamsburgh etc). So I guess my point is that I have seen nothing to suggest that Clinton Hill is going to regress substantially on the crime front.

Pierre--I use the G train every day on my commute to the city and must agree with Schultz above that its a workhorse. It is an incredibly useful train, especially for us Brownstoners who are traveling amongst the neighborhoods of Clinton Hill, Fort Greene, Cobble Hill, Carrol Gardens and or visiting friends in Williamsburgh or the Slope. The G train figures into all of that. I can walk to the C as well but generally speaking I take the G to the A/C at Hoyt and it works great (30 minswork in Chelsea). So to say that is not a day to day transportation option is silly.

In re amenities, being as I am a parent of a toddler my amenities needs have somewhat shrunk over the years. Part of my attachment to Clinton Hill is because of what a great neighborhood it is for kids. That being said, I can get virtually any ethnic variety of food delivered to me, there are several good bars that I go to (less frequently than I would have before!) and several solid if unspectacular "nice dinner out" options. So for me amenities are not an issue.

To each his own though, that is for sure.

Posted by: wasder at September 22, 2008 9:46 PM

Schultz thanks for the tip maybe it has gotten better. I have used the G on a few occasions and my experience was horrendous because it took so long waiting and all passengers had to get out and switch to a second train @ Schem I believe. Now Wasder dont be "silly" I never said the G is not a day to day option. I only said it was severely limiting...see Russianoff's study. The Straphangers Campaign reports that the G line has the worst breakdown rates (dead last) and one of the lowest amount of scheduled service in the MTA system....that is factual evidence based on objective data.
I prefer the numerous choices available @ Atlantic Terminal i.e FG but like you said to each his own.

Posted by: pierre de taille at September 22, 2008 11:17 PM

Pierre: You must have tried riding the G during track work if you had to switch to another train. happens on all lines but probably more on the G. Regardless, it is a day to day part of my commute and serves me well. You did say that "this leaves the C" as the only option but who cares. Its a silly argument in the end because nobody can tell anyone else what train or what neighborhood works well for them.

Posted by: wasder at September 23, 2008 8:27 AM

I am a G commuter, I find it fine in the evening but patchy at best in the morning. I can't fathom why - it must be the easisest line to run. No express, no double use of tracks by other lines, just a straight line. Or a dog leg really. But they still manage to bunch up trains in the morning so that you're waiting for a quarter hour on the platfrom and then two come along head to tail.

Posted by: dittoburg at September 23, 2008 9:15 AM

Wasder - I completely agree with you that transportation is entirely subjective - "nobody can tell anyone else what train or what neighborhood works well for them" and yet you were so explicit in your post above: "To say this location has limited access to transportation is ludicrous." Glad to see we can agree on something. peace

Posted by: HellsBelles at September 23, 2008 10:32 AM

I still think that's a fair statement. One may not like the G or C trains for whatever reasons but Clinton Hill does not have limited access to transportation. Not trying to be combative about this btw. Sorry if it feels that way.

Posted by: wasder at September 23, 2008 11:40 AM

I was away from the computer until now so I would like to address the 2 comments about no vested interest in the argument.

I am a realist; values on non-prime properties will come off their tops. 5% 10% 20% it's not my job to price properties, even though I can tell you pretty much ballpark depending on the size, location, finishes etc what it should list for. Blue Chip neighborhoods with amenities will be fine. Population is increasing and people need homes.

Honestly, values that drop have some affect on my business but I will still continue to make loans. Values go up, values go down, and people still need loans either way. I have really busy these past few weeks with both purchase and refinance business. A lot of people WANT and CAN buy but are afraid of being left holding the bag after the party is over. I totally sympathize as someone who purchased property in 2008 (even though I was in contract since early 2007.)

PS: I am a mortgage banker, not a mortgage broker. I actually have to account for the loans that I make and it's a lot more complicated than just brokering loans.

Posted by: Adam Dahill at September 23, 2008 1:27 PM

« Co-op of the Day: 2 Grace Court, #1J Streetlevel: A Name for Brooklyn Freemans? »

September 22, 2008

House of the Day: 147 St. James Place

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