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September 8, 2008
Do Generalizations About Harlem Hold for Brooklyn Nabes?
It was hard to read this weekend's NY Times story about the changing demographics in Harlem without considering the extent to which the article applied to some of the predominantly black neighborhoods in Brooklyn that have been attracting waves of white newcomers in recent years:
In the past few years, the “Village of Harlem,” as older residents still call it, has become a 21st-century laboratory for integration. Class and money and race are at the center of the changes in the neighborhood. Lured by stately century-old brownstones and relatively modest rents, new faces are moving in and making older residents feel that they are being pushed out. There have been protests, and anger directed as much at the idea of the newcomers as at them personally.
While this particular story focused on what it felt like for the white, middle-class arrivistes trying to make a home in a place that has been predominantly black for decades, it also touched on an aspect of gentrification that often gets overlooked— Middle-class black gentrification— as well as differing attitudes depending on generation. “Older blacks didn’t have any choice but to live in a black neighborhood,” said Mark Thomas, a 29-year-old African American man who recently moved from Atlanta to Strivers' Row. “So they get nervous when a white person wants to move in. But if you talk to young African-Americans, they want the neighborhood they live in to be integrated.” Do you think that's a fair generalization to make about neighborhoods like Clinton Hill and Bed Stuy?
In an Evolving Harlem, Newcomers Try to Fit In [NY Times]
Photo by rfullerrd
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i am sure you could ask ten people in Clinton Hill and get 10 different answers but Clinton Hill is the most successfully integrated neighborhood that I have lived in at least. I know many more younger african americans than older ones (as I am on the kid circuit at the moment) but I am always heartened and enlivened by the mix of people that I know in my neighborhood and I cherish the diversity that my daughter is experiencing. I can already tell that she doesn't look at racial identity at all, which is pretty amazing. But again this is the young family circuit. I am sure there are plenty of people who don't appreciate the changes in the neighborhood and the increasing rent prices. We touched on this in the Flea Market vs the church (or vice versa) thread. There are plenty of reasons why people who have been the custodians of a neighborhood for many years could feel resentful of newcomers, and yet this is also part of the undeniable cycles of urban renewal.
Posted by: wasder at September 8, 2008 9:44 AM
When I was looking in Bed Stuy a realtor commented that "while Harlem went through this process kicking and screaming it has largely been home-grown here in Bed Stuy."
Indeed, a few weeks ago I made the comment that I am the only new buyer on my side of the street and all the other houses, which are owned by long-time residents, have already restored their facades themselves. I have not gotten around to it yet and risk getting a bad report card!!!
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at September 8, 2008 9:50 AM
when white people talk about "diversity" its only black and white diversity, not cultural etc...
Posted by: armchairwarrior at September 8, 2008 10:09 AM
This issue is so complicated. But for one second let's take race out of the equation. I have friends that live in the W. Village and LES who complain about the suburbanization of their neighborhoods. Long time residents forced out to make room for multi million dollar condos.
Neighborhoods throughout New York are losing their identity. It would be very easy to make this racial but it goes beyond race. What made the Harlem, LES and West Village special was the people that lived there. Once those people are forced out and big chains move in, what makes those neighborhoods unique? Absolutely nothing and that is what makes people upset.
Posted by: 7andfive at September 8, 2008 10:12 AM
armchair - so you've failed to read the numerous posts on this board before pointing out that diversity isn't mixing a bunch of african americans, anglo americans and puerto ricans.
Posted by: dittoburg at September 8, 2008 10:12 AM
I too have had a very positive experience in Clinton Hill, getting to know my neighbors and raising a daughter who doesn't make racial distinctions.
The economic disparities here are glaring at times however. And we shouldn't pretend that issues of rising rents, police brutality, and crime don't carry with them racial overtones that make it difficult to assess the success of integration. I think given the fact that gentrification in Brooklyn always brings about its share of socioeconomic tension, Clinton Hill still manages to feel welcoming and tolerant.
Posted by: Lothar of the Clinton Hill People at September 8, 2008 10:14 AM
"I have friends that live in the W. Village and LES who complain about the suburbanization of their neighborhoods. Long time residents forced out to make room for multi million dollar condos."
what suburbs have multi-million-dollar condos?
"What made the Harlem, LES and West Village special was the people that lived there. Once those people are forced out and big chains move in, what makes those neighborhoods unique? Absolutely nothing and that is what makes people upset."
are you really asserting that those neighborhoods are by some measure worse today than they used to be? if so, how?
Posted by: z at September 8, 2008 10:28 AM
"what suburbs have multi-million-dollar condos?"
You are correct most suburbs have homes not condos. But the market is the same at that price point.
"are you really asserting that those neighborhoods are by some measure worse today than they used to be? if so, how?"
I'm not asserting anything. My point is that when the W. Village is filled with Marc Jacobs and Stella McCartney type stores then the place loses some of it's uniqueness.
Some of those streets have a similar feel to West Coast Plaza in Orange county.
I have a friend that's being forced out of her apartment in the W. Village. And I'm sure the condos in those buildings won't have the economic make-up of the former residents.
Posted by: 7andfive at September 8, 2008 10:34 AM
dittoburg
what does this post have to do with other post?
i'm responding only to this post.
Posted by: armchairwarrior at September 8, 2008 10:44 AM
George Will wrote this the other day: "We do, unfortunately, live, as Edmund Burke lamented, in an age of "economists and calculators" who are eager to reduce all things to the dust of numeracy, neglecting
what Burke called "the decent drapery of life." In this supposedly rational and scientific age, the thirst for simple metrics seduces people into a preoccupation with things that lend themselves to quantification.
Selfconsciously "modern" people have an urge to reduce assessments of their lives to things that can be presented in tables, charts and graphs personal and national economic statistics. This sharpens their minds by narrowing them. Such people might as well measure out their lives in coffee spoons."
Seems very relevant to the discussion .The rest of te column is about how we define the words "are we better off"
The link is here if anyone is interested: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/05/AR2008090502974.html
Posted by: bxgrl at September 8, 2008 10:51 AM
"when white people talk about 'diversity'"
Well forgive me for thinking this was some blanket statement.
Posted by: dittoburg at September 8, 2008 10:53 AM
using the term "suburbanization" is incorrect when speaking of any part of NYC. Its a generic dumb term much like calling everyone under 30 a "hipster". It shows a lack of understanding about the United States and a disconnect from reality.
also the few times I have eaten in Harlem the restaurants were filled with upper middle class black people. Its affordable compared to the rest of Manhattan and a nice area with great buildings.
Posted by: Santa at September 8, 2008 11:09 AM
"when white people talk about "diversity" its only black and white diversity, not cultural etc..."
armchairwarrior's statement makes no sense- what would diversity be referring to if not the cultural, economic, religious etc. differences that exist? Skin color- add that in, but that's just one aspect of "diversity."
Perhaps he meant that white people only consider differences between Black and White Americans, neglecting Hispanic, Asian, etc?
Posted by: bxgrl at September 8, 2008 11:10 AM
Armchair--I am white but the diversity I was talking about was not just a black/white thing. Clinton Hill is truly multicultural neighborhood and in the playground my daughter plays with children who are indian and chinese etc etc as well as black and white. I only mentioned the older african american population because they are the oldtimers and as such they are the ones most threatened by newcomers.
Totally reductionist statement and not helpful.
Posted by: wasder at September 8, 2008 11:33 AM
I have lived in Hill for 50 years,growing up my block was mostly Caribbean and Italian and everyone knew each other. Today I don't see less diversity with more white people moving in everyday--where's the diversity in that. Clinton Hill has definitely lost it's charm, and it is way too over populated.
Posted by: momo284 at September 8, 2008 11:38 AM
Bed-Stuy and Crown Heights (and Harlem to a lesser extent) are filled with middle class black homeowners who are not being displaced and do quite well with their homes. You guys don't know about them because most of them (unlike me) don't post on Brownstoner. It's ridiculous to say (as that black guy from Atlanta said in the Times), that these folks "get nervous" when white people move in. Several of my neighbors (for example, an older lady whose late husband was a Tuskeegee airman) are older middle class blacks who have welcomed white newcomers on our block. Mostly, they want to see what you are about on an individual basis. I think problems occur when white folks move in and are reluctant to engage their new neighbors on a personal basis. You don't need to become best friends or anything, but walking about avoiding eye contact won't cut it, nor will the attitude that you've arrived in "the ghetto." Despite whatever problems exist, I can assure you that middle class blacks don't think of their community in this way.
Posted by: East New York at September 8, 2008 11:41 AM
East New York. Good points on all. I agree that a level of communication is necessary to happy integration of neighborhoods. In some places for some reasons this seems to happen (Clinton Hill say) more successfully than in others.
Posted by: wasder at September 8, 2008 11:49 AM
East New York is correct. He's hit that right on the head.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at September 8, 2008 11:50 AM
east new york- I moved to Crown heights because my best friend, who is Black, offered me an apartment in her house. Needless to say, I love it here and I love the neighborhood feel. I make it a point to say hello to people and stop and talk when I can. I'm well aware what white people moving into a neighborhood can signify and I agree with you that although there are a number of whites who have moved into the neighborhood and who have made the effort to become neighbors, the majority of those I see haven't. They seem mostly young, maybe students, but still. When you said "Bed-Stuy and Crown Heights (and Harlem to a lesser extent) are filled with middle class black homeowners who are not being displaced and do quite well with their homes. You guys don't know about them because most of them (unlike me) don't post on Brownstoner." well, truer words were never spoken.
Of course defending my neighborhood has always gotten me in trouble with those who "have never set foot here." :-)
Posted by: bxgrl at September 8, 2008 11:59 AM
bxgrl...i bet your landlord is a nice person as well!!!!
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at September 8, 2008 12:06 PM
An interesting point in the NYT article is that as of 2005 whites made up only 4.3 percent of central Harlem. It goes on to say that that number may have doubled by now, but still, only 10 percent white at most.
I'd bet the numbers in B/S are even lower on a percentage basis. I'd also bet that looking at "greater Harlem," (to the west and north), the percentage of whites is even lower in Harlem, more like 2 percent.
From a distance it may seem like Harlem is half white now. Clearly that isn't the case, and won't be for a long time. What is most notable about Harlem that doesn't yet seem to be the case in B/S is the depth and width of the economic gap between the current residents and newcomers.
Posted by: Bolder at September 8, 2008 12:08 PM
DIBS- oh no! just a nightmarish person totally. :-)
Posted by: bxgrl at September 8, 2008 12:19 PM
Thank you, East New York, for your post.
Posted by: 11233 at September 8, 2008 12:34 PM
okay, bxgrl, i'll bite. how should we apply the concepts in the article to which you linked to the issues suggested by the article this post is about?
Posted by: i disagree at September 8, 2008 12:39 PM
I'll join the chorus in support of East New York, and add that eye contact and friendly greetings to neighbors or strangers is a key difference, in my experience, between neighborhoods like Bed Stuy and Clinton Hill, which have been majority black for generations, and upscale (largely white) neighborhoods in Manhattan. The assumption on the street in neighborhoods like midtown or the upper west side is that anyone speaking to you is probably hitting you up or running some kind of hustle. White folks move from Manhattan to Brooklyn with that habit ingrained, into neighborhoods where a lot of folks (or their families) grew up in the rural South, where passing someone on the street and not acknowledging them is actively rude. Different customs, each with its history behind it, but ignorance of local etiquette can easily lead to a sense of alienation and disrespect, and from there to racial hostility. A friendly greeting, a "sir" or "Ma'm" to an older person, can accomplish more than many folks realize.
Posted by: MiceElfAgain at September 8, 2008 1:08 PM
well, I was relating it to the discussion z and 7andfive were having about how neighborhoods are perceived as being better or worse. It relates to situations such as Harlem where those moving in with money think it's improving, and long time residents may have a different take, and a different point of view of what's important to them. And yes, of course, less crime is important to everyone, but there's much more besides.
Posted by: bxgrl at September 8, 2008 1:20 PM
MiceElfAgain....and I quickly learned who I could address by their first names and who I should say hello to as Mr. or Mrs. It's just a matter of, as you say, "local etiquette" and I think its simply an example of good manners, something oftentimes lacking in Manhattan!
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at September 8, 2008 1:28 PM
MiceElfAgain - good point, one of the times someone writes about something I thought only I'd noticed.
My old neighbors, when we would both be entering/exiting our brownstones simultaneously, would NEVER make eye contact or nod hello. This was in Park Slope.
Posted by: infinitejester at September 8, 2008 1:41 PM
" '...if you talk to young African-Americans, they want the neighborhood they live in to be integrated.' Do you think that's a fair generalization to make about neighborhoods like Clinton Hill and Bed Stuy?"
No, only the conservative, college-educated young African-Americans. The less educated and/or more liberal ones are not quite as open to integration. It's a mixed back with respect to the demographic of each.
Posted by: DOW8000SP800 at September 8, 2008 2:08 PM
MiceElfAgain: Absolutely right! When we (a young white family) moved to Clinton Hill in the early 1990s, within days we'd been welcomed by our (black) neighbors, invited to barbecues, spent time talking on stoops and watching each other's children play on the sidewalk, etc. When I moved to Park Slope, I found that the mostly white families mostly keep to themselves. To this day, I'm on a friendly "hi, how are you?" basis with my black neighbors on my North Slope block whereas the white neighbors seem to think I'm crazy if I say hello to them on the sidewalk! Talk about cultural differences....
Posted by: Park Sloper at September 8, 2008 2:12 PM
Stop writing NABES!!! It's like the combination of fingernails on the chalkboard and stepping in dog crap.
Do people say this out loud? Or just write it? Seriously... aaargH!
Posted by: tybur6 at September 8, 2008 2:27 PM
DOWhat wries..."No, only the conservative, college-educated young African-Americans. The less educated and/or more liberal ones are not quite as open to integration"
Talk about a gross generalization example of racism!!!!!!
Go back to your stock market and interest rate prognostication on the Fannie/Freddie thread!!!
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at September 8, 2008 2:31 PM
bxgrl: the counsel to resist reducing whether it's a "good thing" or a "bad thing" to a set of measurements can be issued to both the newcomers and the old-timers and everyone in between. when it comes down to it, each person does what's best for him or her - including the people that are selling or renting their homes to the newcomers at prices with which their old-timer neighbors apparently cannot compete.
Posted by: i disagree at September 8, 2008 3:17 PM
"No, only the conservative, college-educated young African-Americans. The less educated and/or more liberal ones are not quite as open to integration."
dow-You're making no sense.
That would undercut the notion of "liberal" would it not? I know plenty of college-educated African-Americans, none of them would consider themselves conservative.
Posted by: bxgrl at September 8, 2008 3:17 PM
DOWhat, are you saying you are a liberal, college-educated African-American?
Posted by: 11233 at September 8, 2008 3:21 PM
Thank you, East New York, thank you!
Harlem is at war right now. In my observation, people aren't breathing - they are knee-jerk reacting to unethical owners/ developers (and not all owners/ developers are, of course) who are evicting tenants seemingly left and right through frivolous lawsuits which take advantage of tenants' lack of knowledge about the intricacies of housing court. Lower-income people are being divided and conquered in Harlem. And, they are dividing themselves. Shouting 'cracker' to white people who may be in a similar situation, or who could be part of a larger community with their neighbors is counter-productive behavior. Harlem is getting hit hard. Yet, it need not be so negative uptown. There's an opportunity to bring a community together there, which doesn't appear to be happening.
Thank goodness for Brooklyn. I can now breathe.
Posted by: chnyc at September 8, 2008 3:41 PM
Just wanted to chime in here and add "absolutely!" These issues are so relevant to other nabes, but especially Brooklyn. One of the best parts of this NYTimes experience, was getting to meet and talk with the woman who took my pic, Michelle Agins. Turns out she's got a sweet Brownstone over in Bed-Stuy, since 1988. There was definitely much common ground there in terms of why we selected the nabes we did, why we stayed and how we made it "livable." I just love hearing those stories because one must transition from an objective morality to a subjective understanding of the situation in order to fully experience what your particular neighbors have to offer. If you are unable or unwilling to do this, friction ensues.
Posted by: Yojimbot at September 8, 2008 3:42 PM
In my neighborhood, Clinton Hill, there is a very palpable hostility from some people to whites moving in and none at all from others. Recently, a (white) neighbor found a woman passed out with her skirt up above her waist and naked below. he tried to wake her up and when he could not, he called 911, afraid that she may have OD'd and was dying. When a (black) old time neighbor heard him do that, she railed against him and told him that he'd had no right to do that and was now just going to make the police come. On my block and a few surrounding blocks this is where we tend to see hostility the most - when the old timers feel that the white newcomers are reacting to the crime and the drugs on some of the blocks with alarm, when they should just be minding their own business. I have to agree with one of the posters that generally there is no animosity from the middle and upper class black residents, but that it is a class issue and it simply becomes race related because that's the easiest signifier. In Clinton Hill, most gentrification over the years has been by young black professionals and families, but it is easier for the potentially displaced to place it on the shoulders of the white gentrifiers. While I don't always enjoy that, I can understand it.
Before we moved to this neighborhood, I was reading Brownstoner.com, probably in the first year it existed and read from one commenter that the reason this animosity existed had something to do with how the white people never say hello. I grew up partly in the South and loved that we were moving into a neighborhood where this was commonplace. So, when we moved here, I said hello. Well, some nice people responded in kind, but by and large, my black neighbors keep their heads down as they pass, or pretend they haven't heard. Maybe some of you have ended up on more friendly blocks than mine, but I would not exactly say it's the rule of thumb.
I keep doing it because it feels good and there are those few who seem to like it, but I think there are unfriendly black people just like there are unfriendly white people and ultimately, we're all going to just have to find a way to realize that most of this stuff boils down to class.
Posted by: miss priss at September 8, 2008 4:09 PM
A lot of you are taking a really short view of things. The story of NYC neighborhoods is that they all change rapidly.
If you could do a way-back machine on most of the neighborhoods in NYC you would list out just about every race and ethnic affiliation over time. The whole point about NY neighborhoods is that they change. Who gets title on it? The people who were there in the 80s, the 70s, the 50s or the 30s?
Posted by: wbm2128 at September 8, 2008 4:22 PM
chnyc:
You may not know this, but rent-stabilized tenants can be evicted if the building is going to be replaced with a new property.
Rent-stabilization may seem like communism in that everyone has a right to live in a slum, but it really doesn't work that way in fact. It is a real pain in the 4ss to evict someone - even when following the letter of the law - but it will happen eventually.
So, these lawsuits are frequently not frivolous.
Posted by: Polemicist at September 8, 2008 4:23 PM
Miss Priss: I think it definitely is a block by block thing for Clinton Hill in re how friendly people are on the street. Most of my social interaction in the neighborhood these days comes in the parenting context and I guess this is an area where people are naturally going to be a bit more friendly (in the confines of the kid park there is not a lot of room to be standoffish anyway). I agree that in the end some of these social differences/ways of looking at the world end up being class based but that the racial identity issue is an easier one to define and put a name on hence the misinterpretation.
Posted by: wasder at September 8, 2008 4:24 PM
Polemicist, yes, not all housing court lawsuits are frivolous. But many, many are. Think about the neighborhood elderly, who've been there in lean times, who also have, possibly, large rent-controlled apartments. Prime targets they. And that's a shame. I know of frivolous primary-residence lawsuits, as well, which are scary for some tenants, even if the apartment is their primary residence. The list goes on, with the goal being $ rather than humanity. Change can be positive, and change happens. It just need not be unethically produced.
Posted by: chnyc at September 8, 2008 4:47 PM
So well put East New York, thank you!
My husband and I (both white) moved into a predominantly black neighborhood and we've been taken into the fold in much the way Parksloper described.
The only disparaging comment I happened to overhear (I was inside the house cleaning by an open window)was from the one neighbor on the block, who I might add has always been quite friendly and engaging, that is a renter. He said, "All these whites moving in with their money does no good but to push us out". My other neighbor quickly said, "Now wait, everybody has got to live somewhere and when I sell the color I care about isn't black or white it's green."
In the last year and a half there have been 4 homes sold on our block, each to a white family. One was a quick sale, one an elderly person passed away and the family (who lived out of state) sold the home, two others including the one I bought the people retired and moved away). Prior to that the sales had been quite stagnant and homes sold for significantly lower prices. So, I can see how if I was a renter I'd feel nervous that I'd be priced out so I'm not going to take offense.
That experience aside I can honestly say that the people here both black and white have opened their homes and their hearts to us. They all know us as individuals not just as the white folks that bought Miss Brown's house.
Posted by: TownhouseLady at September 8, 2008 6:43 PM
i live in bedstuy and bought here b/c it is a black neighborhood. i felt comfortable here. all of my friends here have moved here in the last 6-7 years are all black professionals with beautiful renovated homes. so we are a big part of the gentrification. however, the majority that have purchased over the last 3-4 years have been white. this is plain and simple a socio-economic issue. bottom line. men make more than women. whites make more than blacks. so as these prices soar - it prices out many, many black folks. unfortunate but very true. just show up at any open house for 1M +! Racism is real - i work in HR, this is not a debate. most folks (especially white) just don't know how real it is b/c they are not being effected by it. this is a fact!
Posted by: bkny at September 8, 2008 7:38 PM
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