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August 12, 2008
The Next New Brooklyn
We've been told Philadelphia is the new Brooklyn, or Brooklyn is the new Manhattan, and sometimes we've been told that Manhattan is the new Brooklyn. New York Magazine reprised the latter argument. Prices are falling in brownstone Brooklyn, they say —"Statistics from Streeteasy.com show 38 percent of townhouses suffering price cuts in recent months, averaging an 11 percent drop"—and the market is softening in Manhattan. Given the choice between similar prices in two boroughs, apparently some people are saying, "I'll take Manhattan"—not that we know any of them. Not to worry. Even if fewer Manhattanites have been scouring the borough for deals, all's well here. "Brooklyn now has its own momentum," they report. "There are far more pro-Brooklyn partisans than there used to be." Anybody out there witnessed this move-to-Manhattan phenomenon?
Manhattan: The New Brooklyn? [New York Mag]
View of Downtown Manhattan. Photo by drunkcat.
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Comments
Where are these "similar prices" for townhouses in Manhattan? Outside of emerging Manhattan markets (Harlem comes to mind) I would love to know where to buy a townhouse in the city for comparable prices as we have in Brooklyn. (Say between 2-3 million.) Only on the higher end of the Brooklyn market does parity exist.
Posted by: bklynrosie at August 12, 2008 10:16 AM
Speaking as a lifer......most of the "new Brooklyn" is filled with people who would jump to manhattan in a heartbeat if they could afford to.....only because they can't is when they find secondary value aspects....and when they get to brooklyn they generally disdain the long-time locals, especially if the long-time locals are minorities. for them.....they await the neighborhood to change, which usually means becoming more like manhattan, and filled with more people like themselves.......the only exception might be the new people in williamsburg.....the young kids seem way less frustrated by what brooklyn really is (while creating their own spaces at the same time).....not like the others for whom brooklyn is always 5-10 years away
Posted by: slappy at August 12, 2008 10:19 AM
I had a single girlfriend (renter) who recently jumped back to Manhattan after being in the Heights for 5+ years. Her lease was up she was looking for more space and found that 1-Beds in Manhattan are, in a surprising number of instances, less expensive.
I think it was also the convenience factor of being able to walk to work, being single, and a high amenity building were big factors in her decision.
I'm not sure what the final number she ended up paying (I didn't want to ask) but she said she got more bang for the buck than with anything she'd looked at in the Heights.
Posted by: TownhouseLady at August 12, 2008 10:23 AM
I moved to Brooklyn from Manhattan about nine years ago. When I decided to buy (late 2004) I found many more deals in Manhattan and Queens than in Brooklyn. Ultimately, I ended up realizing that my heart belongs to Brooklyn and decided to buy there. If you're not buying to invest, you're going to choose the place that makes you feel the most comfortable.
Posted by: SouthParker at August 12, 2008 10:28 AM
Slappy;
Give it a rest,please.
I'm a Brooklyn native too, and I have vivid memories of what Brooklyn was like before the infusion of new people: decay, ethnic tensions and a lack of any kind of pro-Brooklyn "booster values". In those days, nobody had any sense of Brooklyn as an entity. Rather, we all clung to our neighborhood villages, usually defined by ethnicity, and had no concern for other areas near by.
I always find it ironic to listen to those Brooklyn natives who talk about how great it was in the old days, and yet they now live in some LI or NJ suburb. I always feel like telling them: "Yeah, it was so great that you couldn't wait to leave".
We live in a borough of 2.4 million people, and there is plenty of room for new people. I welcome the life and investment these folks have brought to the borough. Indeed, they have turned around its fortunes, something that was not going to happen if all we had is the "old stock" still in place.
Posted by: benson at August 12, 2008 10:32 AM
what i like best about that photo is how subtle and natural the colors are.
Posted by: bennylava at August 12, 2008 10:34 AM
benson:
i don't think we're talking about the same things....i just purchsed a two family in gowanus (although now i think the relators have changed it to boerum hill or bococa or soho east or something)...not really a nj suburb....new people are great, as long as they don't keep bitching that the place isn't like manhattan (which is the difference between the kids in willie'b and the investors)
just for kicks, since you are a supposed brooklyn native....WHEN did you grow up and WHERE did you grow up that people didnt have a sense of Brooklyn as an entity? That one is totally new to me....As you said, people long gone still claim Brooklyn as their own.....Clinging to their villages? yeah residential segregation was and is still real, but you haven't read this blog long enough......these people are from the village of BEDFORD CORNERS and Stuyvesant Heights or whatever villages they are making up in their mind or dug out of centuries old articles.
But where did you grow up, Mr. Brooklyn, where they didn't have a sense of Brooklyn as an entity?
Posted by: slappy at August 12, 2008 10:49 AM
"I live in Brooklyn. By choice."
Posted by: Johnny at August 12, 2008 10:53 AM
Taking a price cut on a listing is different than the actual sales price. And if one is judging the market by listing prices than maybe someone should find another day job.
Posted by: billyboomer at August 12, 2008 10:54 AM
I don’t really know anyone who would consider moving back to Manhattan, perhaps it’s just the people I know but most picked Brooklyn over Manhattan not only because of the price but because Brooklyn is quieter with neighborhoods that have their own distinct feel. This of course makes it ideal for young families that want an urban lifestyle that is a little less frantic than Manhattan. The fact that Manhattan is continuing to be overrun by big box stores and mega-condominium developments makes it quite unattractive for most former-Manhattan dwelling Brooklynites to go back.
Posted by: 456 at August 12, 2008 10:58 AM
Similarly to several people on here I am a lifer. I was born in Brooklyn (Sheepshead Bay) and have lived in the borough as an adult since 1995. I can't imagine living anywhere else frankly. I think I sit somewhere between Slappy and Benson on the "waiting for Brooklyn" scale as I clearly enjoy the new energy and beautification that has taken place in Clinton Hill but am highly sympathetic to the people who maintained the neighborhood over the years in very trying circumstances. I do think that Clinton Hill has been fairly successful at incorporating new people while leaving room for the old timers but I am sure there are people who disagree with that assessment as well. Anyway, I love Clinton Hill and I am staying for the long haul.
Posted by: wasder at August 12, 2008 11:04 AM
Slappy;
I am 50'ish, and that is as much personal information as I'm going to give out. Let's look back on the 70's, 80's and early 90's:
-do you recall the Crown Heights' riots?
-do you recall the marches by Al Sharpton on Bensonhust, after the murder of a black fellow (whose name escapes me) who wandered in there to buy a used car?
-do you recall the boycott of the Korean green grocer on Church Ave, and the death threats that were handed out?
In all of these cases, the underlying issue was "turf", which was usually defined by ethnicity. If anyone from these areas referred to Brooklyn, they did so in the context of their own tight, homogenous village, in which outsiders were not welcome.
Did anyone in those days say "Let's go explore Bed-Stuy (or Benshonhurst, or Red Hook, or Sunset Park, etc.) and see what it has to offer?" If you are honest with yourself, you will know that the answer is "No".
You seem to be offended that folks are creating new neighborhood names by using acronyms or citing historical references. While I agree that sometimes this can be silly or overdone, I'll take it any day over the situation that used to exist,where neighborhood names were synonomous with boundaries that one did not cross.
Posted by: benson at August 12, 2008 11:05 AM
I was in Manhattan for 7 years before moving to Brooklyn a year and a half ago. I have absolutely zero desire to move back. Brooklyn is most certainly home for me.
All but one of my friends from Manhattan have since moved to Brooklyn, and I don't sense that any have interest in moving back. A couple do have interest in moving from Williamsburg to Ft. Greene or the Slope, but none want to go back to Manhattan.
I'm sure there are instances here and there, but this sounds like another desperate NYMag piece to me.
Is Manhattan that hard up, that now they're trying to convince people that there are a significant number of folks moving back?
Upper West Side townhouses START at 5 or 6 million and go up towards 8 and 10 million closer to Central or Riverside Parks.
I find the story pretty fluffy, at best.
Posted by: 11217 at August 12, 2008 11:05 AM
Bennylava: you made me laugh out loud! (I do like the picture, however.)
Posted by: Park Sloper at August 12, 2008 11:09 AM
don't let him bother you, slappy. benson has a habit of being obnoxious and "comporting" himself through know-it-all pronouncements in the most offensive way possible. You've just join the growing list of those benson deems not worthy of posting :-)
I grew up in the Bronx but moved to Brooklyn years ago and I love it. Although my experience isn't firsthand, I love hearing about life in Brooklyn- the ups and downs. All part of life and certainly not limited to just Brooklyn. But I moved here from a pit stop in Manhattan (which I loathed living in) because I fell in love with the brownstone neighborhoods and the great mix of people. To me Brooklyn just seemed so much more classic NYC than Manhattan. the Bronx always holds first place in my heart but I love living in Brooklyn.
Posted by: bxgrl at August 12, 2008 11:09 AM
Benson--I wholeheartedly agree with you that silly acronym neighborhoods are preferable to impenetrable ethnic enclaves that encourage the kind of xenophobia your historical examples represent.
Posted by: wasder at August 12, 2008 11:09 AM
Benson is absolutely correct judging from the many reminiscences I've heard from old-time residents of Windsor Terrace (which back in the day was simply called Park Slope, according to many of them). By 'old-time' I mean the 1960s and earlier. Folks like the Hamill brothers have recalled for the record a world of "Italian blocks," "Jewish blocks," and "Irish blocks," and God help you if you wandered too far afield from your tribe; in many areas, the parish was a far more relevant boundary than the "neighborhood" and certainly was a more important element of one's self-concept than some meta-"Brooklyn." Aside from the Dodgers, there seems to have been surprisingly little that united Brooklynites beyond the Hollywood stereotype of dese, dems and dose. As a "recent" immigrant (1983), I was in the first wave (unless you count proto-gentrifying pioneers like the Ortners in the 60's and 70's) in a wave of rent-hike and townhouse-price refugees from Manhattan, and I vividly recall the excited esprit de corps we felt as we explored and embraced our adopted borough. We felt like "Brooklynites" perhaps more than the old old-timers, who viewed the snapping up of worn brownstones by young professionals as a sort of madness. This was only a decade after the concussion of white flight, and we all got plenty of flack from older Brooklyn-born Jersey transplants who considered themselves lucky to be "outta there." I guess my point is that the notion of a Brooklynite is pretty darn mutable over time.
Posted by: Brenda from Flatbush at August 12, 2008 11:11 AM
Slappy - The vast majority of those "kids in Williamsburg" would be in the East Village if they could afford it.
Posted by: SnarkSlope at August 12, 2008 11:11 AM
To me it all same city and sounds so provincial to discuss moving to/from Brooklyn/Manhattan/Queens etc is worth discussion. Are NYers lives so narrowly defined and whole sense of being is attached to what boro they live? I hope not.
Posted by: Petebklyn at August 12, 2008 11:12 AM
I moved to Manhattan in 1994 from Chicago. I owned townhouses or detched houses in downtown Chicago since 1985. I was in an apt. for a few years in NYC and then bought one on 54th & lex in 1997.
I just longed for more space, a yard and a place that I could do projects on after so many years in the condo. Really kind of stumbled upon Bed Stuy and noticed the brownstones were beautiful. I didn't weant to spend $1.0 - 2.5 MM because I have a few other homes so Bed Stuy fit the bill.
The only negative was not enough places to eat within walking distance and that is changing. neighborhood is real safe, neighbors really friendly and commute on the A train is fine.
I would never move back to Manhattan but would consider other parts of Brooklyn but then again they have more of a crowded feeling than Bed Stuy
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at August 12, 2008 11:14 AM
Petebklyn you sound like a Manhattan snob when you use the word "provincial"
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at August 12, 2008 11:16 AM
you'll also notice how only one ethnic group is pointed out in his examples- and rather than focus on the murder of Yusef Hawkins (who certainly deserved a better reference than "a black fellow (whose name escapes me)" he prefers to complain about Al Sharpton, not the insular ethnics of bensonhurst who did the actual deed.
Posted by: bxgrl at August 12, 2008 11:16 AM
I can't afford Manhattan, but even if I could, I wouldn't want to be there. I love the scale of brownstone Brooklyn, I love having the park within 2 blocks of me (try getting that in Manhattan for under 5 mil.) and I have no desire to leave.
Sure, there will always be people moving--in both directions. I'm not sure what is the point of the article.
Posted by: BrooklynButler at August 12, 2008 11:16 AM
steps to writing a new york magazine article:
1. look for new trend
2. if new trend cannot be identified, take old trend and declare it dead
3. do perfunctory research supporting existence of new trend, or death of old trend
4. take a break; look for better writing job
5. if better job cannot be obtained, bang out article hours before deadline
5. publish!
Posted by: z at August 12, 2008 11:17 AM
7. proofread your numbered lists before publishing
Posted by: z at August 12, 2008 11:18 AM
The only place that has any potential to be the 'new' brooklyn is - The Bronx.
-much cheaper than manhattan & Brooklyn(now)
-Urban
-mass transit
-once written off as 'dead' due to crime and poverty
-a lot of attractive building stock
-ethnic enclaves
Posted by: fsrg at August 12, 2008 11:20 AM
Bxgrl;
If you will take a breather from your personal animosity towards me, you will see that I did not complain about Al Sharpton. I stated that he marched on Bensonhurst after the MURDER there of Yusef Hawkins (thanks for reminding me of his name). Moreover, I stated that Mr. Hawkins was killed for no other reason than wandering into a neighborhood (to be buy a used car) where he was not welcome.
OK,you can go back to your venom.
Posted by: benson at August 12, 2008 11:22 AM
Ethnic neighborhoods exist all over the city and frankly I love that they do. What could be more bland and boring than a NYC that was like midtown Manhattan everywhere? I am no proponent of turf wars- I've lived in ethnic neighborhoods most of my life and if you treat your neighbors with respect you get it in return. In their own way the "new Brooklynites" form an ethnicity (horrible english but couldn't figure out another way to phrase it). Maybe it's a clash of economic classes, or just a clash of lifestyles, but they do come with their own version of a turf war. If you've grown up in ethnic neighborhoods you know the clashes are not the norm. Most people simply want to live and let live. And for the most part they do. If they didn't, every borough would have long ago completely burned to the ground.
Posted by: bxgrl at August 12, 2008 11:30 AM
The Ortners should have a street named after them... They are the reason Park Slope is what it is... Have you ever seen the before photos of PS in the 1960 and 70s.. It look like a bomb was dropped on the place...
Posted by: Amzi Hill at August 12, 2008 11:31 AM
I admit it...I'm kinda obsessed with Brooklyn.
Posted by: 11217 at August 12, 2008 11:32 AM
I suggest you reread your sentence.
As for my personal animosity towards you? It's in reaction to yours. take a look at the archives before you present your little self as a wide-eyed "Who, me?" innocent. In the venom department I got nothin' on you.
Posted by: bxgrl at August 12, 2008 11:34 AM
Really 11217??? Never would have guessed!!!
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at August 12, 2008 11:35 AM
It is provincial and parochial to be so antagonistic about your particular bit of turf, but then again, I've seen this the world over (though not as much as I have in Brooklyn).
As to discussions that essentially boil down to who is "authentically" Brooklyn due to their attitude or history in the borough or neighborhood, they can get quite tedious and heated, and often don't lead to anything but personal attacks on other posters. I'm sure we can all have a pissing contest as to who has more history in the Borough or who cares more about the neighborhood, or who is a jerk or is nice, but why would we want to unless to just provoke others?
Posted by: 1842 at August 12, 2008 11:36 AM
LOL, bxgrl has a bee in her bonnet for benson! bzz, bzz, bzz, bxgrl no likey no benson! tee hee.
anyway nym has no more to say than prices have dropped everywhere, including at the lower end of manhattan market. so those people who are willing to sacrifice more house (i.e., a brooklyn townhouse vs. a manhattan condo) for more manhattan (amenity, convenience, prestige, whatevs) might now be able to do so. seems less news than a way for brokers to keep the commissions coming in a soft market.
Posted by: i disagree at August 12, 2008 11:36 AM
It may have been one of New York Magazines more "in-depth" articles.
;)
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at August 12, 2008 11:38 AM
dave, good point. they did spring for a third paragraph, after all.
Posted by: i disagree at August 12, 2008 11:40 AM
A (relative) newbie's perspective... we moved here from Canada last year, after falling in love with Manhattan. We thought we'd rent in Brooklyn for a while until we could find/afford a place to rent in Manhattan. (I work in midtown.)
Now we much prefer Brooklyn. You can breathe, you can see the sky, you can walk on the sidewalks without getting crushed by commuters or getting stuck behind throngs of tourists when you're in a hurry. We live near Atlantic station and have all these amazing nabes around us, Park Slope, Prospect Heights, Fort Greene, Cobble Hill and on and on, full of indie shops and mom-and-pops and way fewer McChains than in Manhattan. And it's a quick trip into Manhattan or out to Long Island whenever we want to.
We've had dozens of friends visit, and once they've done the obligatory tourist stuff in Manhattan and experienced the crush and chaos, we tour them around our favorite places in Brooklyn. By their second visit they are much keener on Brooklyn. Same goes for my European co-workers (creative/advertising/photography fields). When I tell them I'm in NYC - they see Brooklyn as a much more vital creative hub than Manhattan, with a brighter future and more opportunity.
Now we're closing on a place in Park Slope and are committed to Brooklyn for the long run. We wouldn't put up with all the downsides of Manhattan, and pay outrageous maintenance and taxes, for the sake of it being a better investment.
Posted by: Brooklyn Cat at August 12, 2008 11:41 AM
bxgrl, i have no idea what history you and benson have on this site, but in this thread, you're the one who started the personal attacks. please stop.
Posted by: z at August 12, 2008 11:41 AM
1842- :-) You're dead on.
I will never go after someone who hasn't attacked me and unless someone is making outrageous, hater type statements a la propjoe, I won't comment. But try to have an open conversation with an exchange of ideas and opinions, well...that's another matter. People can't seem to disagree without going for the throat. I guess they think they need to make up for the long-lost and obviously lamented faded type guests.
Posted by: bxgrl at August 12, 2008 11:42 AM
"When you're a Jet, you're a Jet all the way!"
Posted by: kuroko at August 12, 2008 11:44 AM
Brooklyn Cat....what I failed to mention also was how relaxing it is to emerge from the subway in Fulton park and walk up tree-lined Stuyvesant Ave on the way home.
When you come out of the subway in brooklyn in the summer its always cooler over here than in manhattan too
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at August 12, 2008 11:44 AM
Thanks bxgrl, but I have to say, I agree with z at 11.41am. Not trying to ruffle your feathers, but, and I mean this in a humorous way, you sound like an old couple ready to jump down each others throats ;-).
Posted by: 1842 at August 12, 2008 11:45 AM
z- and you think he didn't go after slappy who simply posted his opinion? as they say, turnabout is fair play and I have been attacked by him totally without provocation. Why don't you hold him to a higher level of response before you worry about me.
Posted by: bxgrl at August 12, 2008 11:47 AM
Yes- benson and I are actually an old married couple. Congratulate us, 50 years now. 15 children, 130 grandchildren and 480 feral cats. We actually live in NJ, Maplewood.
Posted by: bxgrl at August 12, 2008 11:48 AM
I spent the summer of '87 subletting a loft on Mercer with some friends. Good times back then as the are was cool & edgy. Rents on Atlantic will skyrocket as more and more established "boutique" shops continue to open. The next logical expansion will be between 3rd and 4th as we're already seeing some displacement of olde school tenants. The Arabs will probably sell out next to the likes of Steven Alan kind of stores. Koz Paley sees the writing on the wall & is doing a beautiful renvoation of her 6 building calling it the Atlantic Gardens. There's money to be made in these parts. It's only logical that houses & condos in Boerum Hill, Fort Greene, PS will continue to rise at a clip of 5-7% in coming years and maybe even as much as 10% once the BAM Cultural District comes to fruition. Right now, Atlantic Avenue is about as close as it comes to the NY we all knew & loved in the 80's. It's now moving into it's early 90's Manhattan stage. It's all happening, folks
I'm alsoliking the way Brooklyn is starting to shape up. Reminds me of late 80's, early 90's Manhattan. It's going to be a fun ride over the next decade. It's only logical that rents and housing prices near transportation will skyrocket in coming years. Boerum Hill, Forte Greene and Downtown will all be huge beneficiaries
Posted by: PropJoe at August 12, 2008 11:51 AM
bxgrl - seems to me that slappy can (and did) have his/her own dialogue without needing you to jump to his defense. we're not worried about benson because you're the one who's out of line.
Posted by: i disagree at August 12, 2008 11:51 AM
Similar to another favorite city of mine: Brooklyn is the left bank and Manhattan is the right bank. The current real estate "correction" will parse-out those who love Brooklyn's relaxed-underground-bohemian vibe from the Manhattan-wannabe refugees who are living amongst us. Viva Brooklyn! :)
Posted by: qis4quincy at August 12, 2008 11:53 AM
oh, hi koz paley. i mean "propjoe." by the way, don't you belong in baltimore?
Posted by: i disagree at August 12, 2008 11:54 AM
PropJoe...wait 'till the What and his sister DOW8000 get ahold of your property forecasts!!!!!!
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at August 12, 2008 11:55 AM
Posted by "PropJoe" on July 17, 2008:
"I'm liking the way Brooklyn is starting to shape up. Reminds me of late 80's, early 90's Manhattan. It's going to be a fun ride over the next decade. It's only logical that rents and housing prices near transportation will skyrocket in coming years. Boerum Hill, Forte Greene and Downtown will all be huge beneficiarys"
And also on July 17, 2008:
"Montrose Morris is right about atlantic being similar to SOHO in the 80's. I spent the summer of '87 subletting a loft on Mercer with some friends. Good times back then as the are was cool & edgy. Rents on Atlantic will skyrocket as more and more established "boutique" shops continue to open. The next logical expansion will be between 3rd and 4th as we're already seeing some displacement of olde school tenants. The Arabs will probably sell out next to the likes of Steven Alan kind of stores. Koz Paley sees the writing on the wall & is doing a beautiful renvoation of her 6 building calling it the Atlantic Gardens. There's money to be made in these parts. It's only logical that houses & condos in Boerum Hill will continue to rise at a clip of 5-7% in coming years and maybe even as much as 10% once the BAM Cultural District comes to fruition. Right now, Atlantic Avenue is about as close as it comes to the NY we all knew & loved in the 80's. It's now moving into it's early 90's Manhattan stage. It's all happening, folks"
Look familiar???
Posted by: 11217 at August 12, 2008 11:55 AM
right- and you and the others never go after anyone? the what just has to look at his computer and all of you are all over him like a massive car pile up. And, i disagree, aren't you jumping into the conversation just like you're complaining I did? benson doesn't need you to defend him. Look to your own problems.
Posted by: bxgrl at August 12, 2008 11:58 AM
whoa, good catch 11217. propjoe/koz, you have some explaining to do! marlo's waiting.
Posted by: z at August 12, 2008 11:59 AM
The argument is not whether ethnic enclaves should exist (they always will and they provide a fascinating, diverse fabric for the city) but whether there should be room to navigate between them and room for new people to integrate into them. It feels like we are mostly in agreement in this discussion and some lose semantics(and old animosities) are getting in the way.
Posted by: wasder at August 12, 2008 12:01 PM
I lived in Manhattan (mostly the E Vill) since 1986 and moved to Brooklyn in 2002. Initially I was thrilled with the neighborhood-y vibe and quiet streets. After a few years I find it frustrating and at time excruciatingly boring. Like most Manhattan transplants, I now have a baby and find myself sticking closer to home most of the time.
If I could have/afford the same amount of space (including backyard) in Manhattan I'd be back there in a hot minute.
I would love to have the amenities and service that one finds and expects in a typical Manhattan neighborhood.It would be a dream come true to be able to walk around the neighborhood with the baby and actually have something to do. It would be heavenly to be able to get a decent head of lettuce on the corner or cold medication without having to ride my bike to Target.
It comes as no surprise that the Flea Market, the one event that actually brings some life into this tired little hamlet, has the locals up in arms as if it's some sort of Bacchanalian frenzy descended on their otherwise torpid little burg.
Posted by: houseowax at August 12, 2008 12:03 PM
Yes, 11217 they do look familiar. They both look like they are written by smart people who are positive on the future of Brooklyn. First the bloggers go after bxgrl, and now you're trying to drag Montrose Morris and PropJoe into the mix. What's your point? If you've got something constructive to say, by all means ...
Posted by: MacD at August 12, 2008 12:04 PM
hey, z @ 11:59, where's my credit!?
oh, and bxgrl, not defending benson. just trying to keep the level of dialogue reasonable. why don't you get some fresh air? it's nice outside.
Posted by: i disagree at August 12, 2008 12:06 PM
House of wax-tell us how you really feel!
Posted by: wasder at August 12, 2008 12:07 PM
11217,
Good catch. I was just being lazy & didn't want to write a similar diatribe so I cut & past similar thoughts. No harm.
Posted by: PropJoe at August 12, 2008 12:08 PM
houseowax:
Sounds like maybe you just might not be in the right Brooklyn neighborhood for you.
I always find it very suspicious when people say a neighborhood is boring.
There are boring people, but if you find Brooklyn boring (a city with more people than Manhattan, and on it's own the 4th largest "city" in the country) I'd look a little more towards your lifestyle than I would in blaming your surroundings.
Everyone has a different tolerance for boredom I suppose, and I'm not saying you can't prefer Manhattan over Brooklyn (perfectly reasonable) but boring??
I can walk to more services, restaurants, bars, places that sell lettuce, etc in my current neighborhood than I ever could on the Upper West Side.
Posted by: 11217 at August 12, 2008 12:08 PM
sorry, i_disagree, missed that comment! you get props for that. no pun intended. (ok, pun maybe intended.)
Posted by: z at August 12, 2008 12:09 PM
Whether or not they should is a kind of scary question, which begs the next question of who decides. they naturally evolve by themselves pretty much- people like to be comfortable and are more so in neighborhoods that are made up of those with similar backgrounds and cultures. I happen to love that about NY- but I don't view neighborhoods as static, nor owned by any one particular group. I agree there has to be room to grow and change. Maybe the problem lies more in how we do that- I think people feel forced out of their neighborhoods, rather than neighborhoods changing over time as economics and demographics dictate. I just seem to feel that we are seeing greater disparities between the "old-timers" and the New Brooklynites in terms of money and lifestyles, and in closer quarters. My neighborhood, where I grew up, changed over time- the classic white flight, but the African Americans moving in were professionals and working class people, so the change was slower and didn't feel so extreme as the changes do now.
Posted by: bxgrl at August 12, 2008 12:12 PM
I have no idea what you're talking about McD.
None, whatsoever.
Dragging Montrose into the mix? What in gods name are you talking about? I appreciate, enjoy and love what Montrose has to say.
I was simply pointing out that PropJoe has a script which he/she reproduces word for word. If that's your idea of smart, I don't think we have much to say to one another.
Posted by: 11217 at August 12, 2008 12:12 PM
what exciting things are there to do in manhattan with a baby that one can't find in many (not all) parts of brooklyn? that's a serious question - i want to know what i've been missing!
Posted by: i disagree at August 12, 2008 12:13 PM
Z,
To what do you disagree? Is it that you don't believe in the future of Brooklyn & the high possibility of increasing prices or is it that Brooklyn is destined to be Manhattan East within the next decade. Progress cannot be stopped. We are now 14 months into the Credit Crunch and Brooklyn continues to boom.
Eric Dinallo is making great strides with the monoline insurers to work our way out of this mess. If Brooklyn hasn't crashed, it most likely never will. Rather than seeing 15% increases year in an year out, we are more likely to see sustainable increases of 5-7% with the outliers being BAM & Downtown which could see 10%. Remember, markets never bottom on great news - alway bad news. 14 months of bad news me thinks signals a bottoming process by Q2 2009. By then, Brownstone Brooklyn will have gone up another 5%.
Get wit it, son!
Posted by: PropJoe at August 12, 2008 12:17 PM
Oh and McD, here are some other posts from your friend PropJoe. I take it back, he sounds SOOOOO SMART!!!
"Puffy Daddy is Ghetto too. He be nuthin' but a punk ass bitch. And who be these 2 successful bands? I be doubtin' any truth to 'dat. What is Farnzworth be up to?"
"Making the band is Ghetto."
"Billyburgh is over, son. Downtown, Boerum Hill & Forte Greene is where it be at. Housing prices continue to be going gangbustarhymes in those 'hoods. I know. I live in Forte Green near the Park"
"Place is very nice but location is mad ghetto. Murders and beatings all the time in Bed Stuy. Not a safe hood. I'd say $350k for the 750 sq ft place and $425k for the 971 sq ft and even those prices are pushing it. This ain't Clinton Hill folks."
I feel a Nobel Prize for Literature coming on!!
Posted by: 11217 at August 12, 2008 12:20 PM
Money, money, money...is that all you people think about?
Posted by: qis4quincy at August 12, 2008 12:22 PM
11217,
Bwahahahahaha! I nearly be fallin' out of my seat wit laughter, yo! I be way too funny in my writing skillz. To straddle the ghetto & the yuppies with one fell swoop of the pen is mad talent. You just be jealous, son. So many talents, yet so lil' time.
Posted by: PropJoe at August 12, 2008 12:24 PM
Looks like we now know where some of the more asinine guest comments were coming from pre-mandatory registration.
Posted by: 11217 at August 12, 2008 12:29 PM
hear hear houseowax - I think once you have children and are kind of immobilized, brooklyn can feel constricting. On the other hand, once the children get older, the neighborhood/community feel is lovely for them and very unique in this country where people are increasingly isolated. Both boroughs have strengths, but I don't think bkln will ever have the amazing energy Manhattan does - one big reason is that it's populated to such a huge degree by young families - people who hardly lead the charge in generating exciting energy! On the other hand, that amazing energy can be pretty exhausting and the lack of it in Brooklyn is what constitutes its charm. (p.s., I grew up in Manhattan and moved to Wburg in 96 and CG in 2000).
Posted by: gkw at August 12, 2008 12:31 PM
i disagree- I have complained many times about the level of dialogue on brownstoner and if you look at my initial post, I talked about something easily provable- his history of posts that attack. Which I know from personal experience. So I simply stated fact.
And considering the level so many of the threads on brownstoner descend to, it's a hoot to be taken to task for the very thing so many posters here have made an art of.
Posted by: bxgrl at August 12, 2008 12:32 PM
I left Manhattan and I have no desire to return. I moved to Jersey City and I love it. I can afford Manhattan but I get so much more for my money over the water. It's quiter and I don't have a million people outside my place 24-7. Everything is cheaper, gas, food, beer and my income taxes are lower. I'm a 5 boroughs guy my entire life so it was hard for me to leave but it was the best decision I've made in a long time. My place would have cost double in BK and triple in the city.
Flame away Jersey Phobes.
Posted by: Adam Dahill at August 12, 2008 12:38 PM
gkw- amazing energy or frenetic energy? There are loads of people in Brooklyn who contribute more to that Manhattan buzz than you think. The energy in Brooklyn is directed differently, I think. Not so much newer, bigger, faster, trendier!!! There's a depth to the energy in Brooklyn I really don't find in Manhattan. Gads- I'm sounding like a New Age guru type -so not me.
Posted by: bxgrl at August 12, 2008 12:38 PM
Why can't Manhattan be the new Disneyland and Brooklyn be the new Left Bank? That sounds much more appropriate, at least in a metaphysical sense. Am I right or am I right?
Posted by: PropJoe at August 12, 2008 12:53 PM
"The only place that has any potential to be the 'new' brooklyn is - The Bronx."
I would agree but the Bronx just doesn't have the brownstone stock. Just a bunch of large, beautifully architectured apartment buildings. They certainly have the history though (SoBro that is).
Posted by: DOW8000SP800 at August 12, 2008 12:57 PM
There are some large sections that do have lots of rowhouses and brownstones, but the neighborhoods are not at all like brownstone Brooklyn ones. But the wonderful old apartment buildings and pre-war projects are magnificent. I grew up in one and some of my family live in another just below Riverdale. I don't know as you can compare the Bronx and Brooklyn because the structure of the neighborhoods and the architecture are so distinctly different. Would be a fascinating study to see how the types of architecture have determined the evolution of present day neighborhoods.
Posted by: bxgrl at August 12, 2008 1:05 PM
i don't think that many in williamsburg want to leave in the east village. it's now fill up of frat boys and gals. the cool venues and bars are mostly in williamsburg, with the best loft parties being in Bushwick - maybe some still in LES. a 20 (almost 30) something that works for me - who is slightly more gay fashionista than hipster, but has a bit of hipster on him, said that he would flat out never live in Manhattan - go to beatrice tavern, sure, but never live outside of brooklyn because it is not cool.
Posted by: wine lover at August 12, 2008 1:06 PM
I work in Brooklyn and never go to Manhattan anymore. the thought almost revolts me.
That being said, I never go to Sheepshead Bay, Canarsie, or Bensonhurst either.
Posted by: infinitejester at August 12, 2008 1:16 PM
DOW - I agree that Bronx is much more 'apartment house' based than Brooklyn - but so what.....I really do not think that it is simply the brownstones that make Brooklyn - the Bronx is filled with beautiful buildings and amazing apartments (far nicer then you'd ever get in any brownstone conversion), plus it has far nicer topography then any place in Brooklyn and Manhattan (except upper Manhattan).
Personally I doubt there really will be a 'next Brooklyn' anyway (especially since prices will likely fall over the next few years - keeping Brooklyn as the new and old Brooklyn) - but for all those people who want to declare Philly, Yonkers, Newark, etc.... as the next Brooklyn - they really should evaluate the Bronx since it has many of the components that helped Brooklyn revitalize and it is as close (if not closer) to Midtown Manhattan.
Posted by: fsrg at August 12, 2008 1:28 PM
Truth is Manhattan stop being "cool" in the mid '90s with the death of the big clubs (Limelight, Twilo, etc.) If one visits the East/ West villages or the LES on weekend nights all you will see are preps, squares, NJ/LI types and tourists. The bars in Will-burg/Green Point, Bushwick, Fort Green/Clinton are where the hipsters, bohos and granola types dwell (myself included).
Posted by: qis4quincy at August 12, 2008 1:43 PM
"Truth is Manhattan stop being "cool" in the mid '90s....If one visits the East/ West villages or the LES on weekend nights all you will see are preps, squares, NJ/LI types and tourists.....The bars in Will-burg/Green Point, Bushwick, Fort Green/Clinton are where the hipsters, bohos and granola types dwell (myself included)"
Are you calling hipsters, bohos, granolas and yourself = Cool???
I hope not...personally it is much cooler IMHO to actually move passed putting everyone in boxes like we are all still in H.S.
Posted by: fsrg at August 12, 2008 1:49 PM
fsrq LOL! You are right, I will forever be young at heart! :p
Posted by: qis4quincy at August 12, 2008 1:57 PM
Having been born in Manhattan, in which I lived almost consistently for--inhales deeply--sixty-one years following, I finally found myself priced-out.
I ended up as a renter in Brooklyn Heights, in, as luck would and did have it, a rent-stabilized apartment.
Besides the sense of dislocation that anyone might experience under the circumstances, I felt that BH was, though picture-perfect and wholly serene, utterly lifeless--and, believe me, I don't crave anything like a scene.
To make peace with my new nabe, I concocted a kind of bi-borough life: I go to Manhattan not only to work, but for working out at a favored gym; for best meat and produce; for movies and of course theater; for clothes shopping; for most of my socializing.
I return to BH for (temporary) R and R, which of course includes slumber, for which the nabe is so perfectly suited (I mean this as a compliment).
When I finally realized I didn't have to give up Manhattan to live Brooklyn--that I could have the best of both worlds--I felt ever so much happier there.
Posted by: AB at August 12, 2008 1:58 PM
to all -- get over yourselves! : )
Posted by: bklynite at August 12, 2008 2:02 PM
"I'm a Brooklyn native too, and I have vivid memories of what Brooklyn was like before the infusion of new people: decay, ethnic tensions and a lack of any kind of pro-Brooklyn "booster values". In those days, nobody had any sense of Brooklyn as an entity. Rather, we all clung to our neighborhood villages, usually defined by ethnicity, and had no concern for other areas near by."
I grew up in ENY in the 1970s. There was definitely more crime and decay, and far fewer police. But I recall a very happy childhood spent on the relatively quiet streets of my neighborhood, riding my bike and playing baseball, football, basketball and street games like "skelly," "freeze tag," "flies up," "Chinese handball," "running bases" and "hot peas and butter" with the neighborhood kids. As Benson says, there were neighborhoods we KNEW not to go into because they weren't welcoming to brothers and sisters (in those days Canarsie, Bensonhurst and Howard Beach). On the other hand, we frequently rode our bikes out to the Promenade to look over to Manhattan (which we all thought was no big whoop in particular). We took the train (longtime NYers call the subway "the train") out to Coney Island to hang on the boardwalk. We drove out to Riis Park in Queens to swim, chill and hang out at (in those days) the nude section of the beach. I also liked traveling with my friend Wayne to his girlfriend's mother's well-kept brownstone in Bed-Stuy, where I had some friends. We NEVER missed the West Indian Day parade on the Parkway. My friends and I also thought of Brooklyn as superior to Manhattan, although I can't explain exactly why. My point is that Benson's statement, while true in some respects, is, I think, an oversimplification. I do like aspects of the "new" Brooklyn, other aspects annoy me. But Brooklyn has always been a mixed bag, one that I've always lived in and don't plan on leaving.
Posted by: East New York at August 12, 2008 2:09 PM
Adam Dahill....if all you need is "gas,food, beer" then Jersey City is a good place for you
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at August 12, 2008 2:12 PM
Thanks Daveinbedstuy, you're a real special person. As you can see from my posts I don't go after people and start fights I just give my opinion, but I guess that isn't good enough for you and you have to resort to insults. I don't hide behind an alias, my name is my name.
You are telling me that you would pick Bed Stuy over historic downtown Jersey City? Van Vorst park is absoluty beautiful and less than 10 mins to the WTC. The prices are holding steady on townhouses as well. I offer you an invitation to come check out the area. We have plenty of restaurants and amenties that Bed Stuy doesn't and the price point and location are superior. I love Brooklyn, just I found better deals for my money on this side of the Hudson.
You sound like the sterotypical Manhattanite who knocks Brooklyn because it's Brooklyn. Instead you knock Jersey City from Brooklyn. Take a look before you put your foot in your mouth.
Posted by: Adam Dahill at August 12, 2008 2:45 PM
Dave...You might be surprised. I know I was. Not everyone's cup-of-tea but I'm going to venture it's better than you'd expect.
Posted by: TownhouseLady at August 12, 2008 2:49 PM
Adam...you should have read my earlier post. I live in Brooklyn. I never knocked Brooklyn. Don't know what hole you pulled that out of. I resort to my time-tested "reading comprehension problem?" question. Fool.
If you think Jersey City is better than Brooklyn then I applaud the demented world you live in. Yes, Bed Stuy over Jersey City. Have you seen Bed Stuy ever??
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at August 12, 2008 2:50 PM
that wasn't very nice 11217
Mr. B you should remove that
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at August 12, 2008 2:58 PM
East NY;
Though my experiences were different than yours, I can understand some of your points. I'm not trying to paint a uniformly bleak picture of life back then, as my childhood was fairly nice too.
I think Brenda from Flatbush said it best in her post. If you think about it, there was no unifying element to Brooklyn back then, or, put another way, "common ground". In any transition, something will be lost, and something gained. What I am saying is that with the "new Brooklyn", one of the biggest gains (at least in my mind) is that we are coming closer to this sense of common ground.
Also, I would suggest that all people see their childhood as an idyllic place. If, however, you take a look at films of NYC from those days, such as the "French Connection", you might be shocked, as I was. As I reported in a recent post, I saw this film about one year ago in a theater. It was shot on location in NYC in 1970. Even though I lived through that time, and could swear I remember it, I was shocked by what I saw in the film. The filth and overall sense of decay is not to be believed.
Posted by: benson at August 12, 2008 2:59 PM
If you understood how to read you would understand. I said you sound like a Manhattanite who knocks Brooklyn, but since you are already in Brooklyn you knock Jersey City. And once again you decide to pick a fight behind an alias calling me a fool. I'm not going to stoop to your level and get into an fight over a internet message board. You picked the fight with me remember. I just try to provide my opinion and my reasoning.
And yes I have seen Bed Stuy plenty of times, I have family all over Brooklyn, my brother lives in Bed Stuy as well as a few friends and yes I would pick Downtown Jersey City over Bed Stuy. Restaurants, parks, bars, grocery stores, the waterfront, less projects, etc..
Ten years ago people would roll their eyes if you said you were moving to Brooklyn, today it's the in thing to do. Why do you insist on treating people like me the same way.
Take a look sometime, it's not the black hole a lot of people think it is. It's actually quite nice.
Posted by: Adam Dahill at August 12, 2008 3:02 PM
11217, Low Blow.
Posted by: TownhouseLady at August 12, 2008 3:02 PM
ENY...despite our little "dust up" yesterday (i can't even remember what it was actually about) I like your posts and reminisciences (sp) about Brooklyn.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at August 12, 2008 3:05 PM
Adam posted that himself on the Forum. That's where I got it from.
I was simply showing that he has nothing to hide. He likes Jersey City, and even put up his contact info. on Brownstoner. He doesn't hide who he is. Gotta respect that.
Posted by: 11217 at August 12, 2008 3:14 PM
Anyone who signs up with their real name is subject to someone looking them up, btw.
He's not afraid so why are you?
Posted by: 11217 at August 12, 2008 3:16 PM
"As I reported in a recent post, I saw this film about one year ago in a theater. It was shot on location in NYC in 1970."
I remember it quite clearly, and you're right. Today's recently arrived have no idea how screwed things were back then. Trains and streets were dirtier. Places like Central Park, Bryant Park and Prospect Park were to be avoided, unless you were looking to score drugs or sex. Crime was much more prevalent, and police were hard to come by. In many ways, things have improved immeasurably since those days.
Posted by: East New York at August 12, 2008 3:19 PM
11217..I don't post mine because there's no need to. And, I like to have a little fun with people now and then and who knows what kind of psychos are out there. Not that long ago about 5 of us posters actually met up for drinks. It took a long time before any of us were comfortable with exchanging emails and then meeting up. It was a trip.
11217..go ahead and post your details then. "He's not afraid so why are you?"
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at August 12, 2008 3:21 PM
Afraid is not the word I'd use. I just think, Why go there?
Just doesn't seem like the gentlemanly/right thing to do.
But that's me.
Posted by: TownhouseLady at August 12, 2008 3:22 PM
I choose not to post my real name, nor have I ever posted my info in the forum. All one needs to do is google Adam Dahill and his info is everywhere. If he wanted his info kept confidential, he would have done so. I did not sign up to have my info broadcast.
I think knowing that he's a mortgage broker in New Jersey is pertinent to his interest in that market.
Personally I find the following statement much less gentlemanly, but that's just me:
"If you think Jersey City is better than Brooklyn then I applaud the demented world you live in. Yes, Bed Stuy over Jersey City. Have you seen Bed Stuy ever??"
And I've been to both Jersey City and Bed Stuy, and I'd choose Jersey City in a heartbeat. Does that make me demented??
Posted by: 11217 at August 12, 2008 3:29 PM
And I apologize to Adam, if he's upset I posted that information.
I do not apologize to TownhouseLady nor DaveinBedStuy, especially since you seem to enjoy being nasty to people, Dave.
Your comments lately have been downright rude.
Posted by: 11217 at August 12, 2008 3:31 PM
How will we ever sleep at night (especially you Dave, in BED STUY no less)?!?!?!
Posted by: TownhouseLady at August 12, 2008 3:39 PM
For the record, I am not "calling anyone out." Let's all drop the AFRAID word. I make my contact information public because I am in the RE business. I also don't expect anyone else to publish their info because I do. I finance residential and commercial properties. I didn't and still don't do any subprime loans so let me get that out of the way. My name is my business.
I know quite a bit about Brooklyn and Manhattan real estate and I thoughly enjoy discussing it on numerous websites and blogs... when I have the time.
The point I am trying to make in this long drawn out thread that started as Manhattan is the new Brooklyn and Brooklyn is the new Manhattan is, (wait, what was my point?) :)
My point, ahh yes, years ago many Manhattanites wrote off Brooklyn as an undesireable neighborhood of people that "couldn't affoard Manhattan" Today that has changed as the city has changed. Manhattan is extremely overcrowded and you just can't get the same liefstyle anymore. People CHOOSE to live in Brooklyn these days. I CHOOSE to live in the Van Vorst Park area of Jersey City because I got more space than I would have gotten in Brooklyn and I found the amenities superior to those neighborhoods that I was looking at in Brooklyn and Queens. My neighborhood looks like a cross btwn Williamburg and Clinton Hill and I love it.
Posted by: Adam Dahill at August 12, 2008 3:42 PM
Not only won't sleep but now emotionally scarred for life. I'm sure I'd be sleeping better if I lived in JC.
If I had the time I'd go back through 11217's posts and I'm sure I'd find some vitriol.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at August 12, 2008 3:43 PM
I concur with with bklynite and 1842. This is a rather silly discussion ignited by a questionably sourced NYMag article. As a lifelong Brooklynite, my experience was very similar to East New York's experience at 2:09. I grew up in Sunset Park in the 80s and early 90s, we visited family in Park Slope and Brooklyn Heights and shopped in Downtown and Bay Ridge. Some neighborhoods you avoided. It was not a big deal what ethnicity you were as long as you were respectful. Also, if you find your current Brooklyn neighborhood boring, it's only a matter of exploring other neighborhoods to find the right fit. The bottom line is that Brooklyn will never be a replica of Manhattan and that's exactly why many people live in Brooklyn.
Oh and I have to agree that Dave was a bit rude to Adam.
Posted by: jwald at August 12, 2008 3:44 PM
I love you all. This has made my afternoon.
LOVE....
PEACE....
HIPSTER GREASE
Posted by: Adam Dahill at August 12, 2008 3:47 PM
Adam, I think this backs your point (even with the horrible dark photos) that there are some really sweet deals to be had in JC.
http://www.realtor.com/realestate/jc+bergenlafayett-nj-07304-1098888242/
Posted by: TownhouseLady at August 12, 2008 3:54 PM
I can always be persuaded to recant anything I've said if someone can show me the facts that rebutt. THL has done so. that's a magnificent building at an Ocean Hill price!!!!
LOVE...
PEACE...
Adam I will get in touch with you for my next mortgage. Do you do commercial as well?
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at August 12, 2008 3:59 PM
Jwald;
I appreciate that you can dismiss the whole topic of the previous social situation in NYC as "silly". It is too bad that our former senator (Daniel Patrick Moynihan) wasn't around to receive your advice, as he thought the ethnic tensions in NYC to be serious enough to write a whole book on the topic,which is widely considered to be a masterpiece of social studies:
http://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Melting-Pot-Negroes-Italians/dp/B000J56FDW/ref=sr_1_12?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1218571401&sr=1-12
Posted by: benson at August 12, 2008 4:09 PM
Benson,
You don't think it's silly?
We all live in NYC.
What other city do you know of where there is so much infighting about moving from neighborhood to neighborhood within the same city? (Besides those cities which lie in the Middle East)
I've lived in quite a few cities in the U.S., and this is the first time I've ever experienced such a thing.
It's wonderful to be proud of where you live and feel connected to it, but the NYMag article is not very well written.
Now the book you mention sounds much more interesting, but it also sounds to only vaguely resemble what's being talked about in this article.
Posted by: 11217 at August 12, 2008 4:14 PM
I know that house. I actually just moved over here back in Feb of this year so I'm still exploring a bit. That house is very nice but that neighborhood is a little rough around the edges still. JC is huge city and areas West of the Highway are still tough. I'm downtown in Van Vorst park which along with Hamilton Park, Harsimus Cove and Paulus Hook make up Historic Downtown. Then you have the waterfront which is very different as it's more like the financial district and Battery Park City mushed together and a small area of Loft buildings in the PowerHouse Arts district which has the feel of some Tribeca streets.
You can purchase 4 story townhouses for around 750-850k downtown that may need some minor work and those that are renovated into 2 Fams with a triplex owners and garden rental go for around 1 mill-1.2 mill. You can get some smaller clapboard townhouses or skinny brownstones (2 windows not 3) that need work downtown in the 400-550 range
I just looked at my last post and boy my spelling is getting atrocious. I better watch myself before the grammar police come looking.
Hey Dave, bury the hatchet? We are all here because we enjoy the same thing right?
Posted by: Adam Dahill at August 12, 2008 4:14 PM
Yes Adam. Hatchet buried. Thanks for the descriptions of the neighborhood and the rundown on the housing stock.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at August 12, 2008 4:24 PM
11217;
Perhaps we're mis-communicating. I do think the NY article is silly. In general, I find NY Magazine to be frivolous and disconnected from the real life of NYC.
My issue with jwald is his dismissal of the discussion about the previous decline and social situation in NYC, which is the subject of Moynihan's book. Perhaps he did so because, in his own words,he grew up in the 80's and 90's, when it was on its way out.
For those who have never read it, I would highly recommend Moynihan's book. It perfectly describes the tensions between these ethnic groups at that time that led to NY's decline from the 50's to the early 90's. It was a somewhat tragic situation in that each group had legitimate viewpoints and gripes, but somehow the leadsership couldn't hammer out a workable solution
Posted by: benson at August 12, 2008 4:27 PM
hey benson:
So you lived in brooklyn for a lifetime and all you define it by is tribes, ethnic tension and sharpton marches??....yeah, ethnic and race tensions were rough back then....but it was rough in all nyc....until of course we were saved by displaced manhattanites looking for their annual double digit ROI's??? Dude, you don't sound like anyone who liked BK that much, I'm surprised you stayed.....
i guess since i grew up in gowanus, bushwick and canarsie, i wasn't ever as scared of other tribes as much as you were....even though sharpie was marching on my block daily when i was going to school......those williamsburg kids who were "crazy" to live with those purto ricans weren't scared like you, and they transformed it...they wouldnt trade w'b for the east ville in its current form in a million years.......its really the types who have moved into bedford corners, clinton hill, stuyvesant gardens, and fulton-narrows that want to be somewhere they are not, and the market will not be kind to speculation in the coming years.....
I've nothing against any person moving into my fair borough or making a bit of dough in an investment at the same time....the difference in livability, air, scale and DIVERSITY make bk what it is.....but i do have some fears of brooklyn participating in the "GREAT SORT", where it becomes filled with people who all think the same yuppie lifestyle is the only way to fly, and sameness of thought hides a narrowness of opinion......under the guise of "common ground"
btw- my main beef with bk was the crime, but brooklyn was becoming safer by the mid-90's and way safer by the late '90's. it was only then that the charms of brooklyn became known to the small time "investor" real estate mogul crowd, bitching about Section 8, "those people" rent regulation or whatever was here before they came and is now an obstacle to their nirvana. they remind me of all the people ready to jump ship and leave town in the immediate aftermath of 9/11
Posted by: slappy at August 12, 2008 4:30 PM
benson- I don't get your comment at all. This discussion is silly to me because of the so-called article that spurred it. As a young minority who encountered racist remarks from whites in Brooklyn, the "social situation" is far from silly to me. My point is that while I was growing up in Brooklyn, people around me did not place such an emphasis on which neighborhood or borough was better. Hope your not trying to pick more fights.
Posted by: jwald at August 12, 2008 4:32 PM
Some nice townhouse listings from that are downtown. Sorry I didn't mean to highjack the thread.
http://newyork.craigslist.org/jsy/reo/792053163.html
http://www.theavantigroup.net/homespage2.html
http://www.delfornorealestate.com/sales.html
http://newyork.craigslist.org/jsy/reb/788918891.html
Posted by: Adam Dahill at August 12, 2008 4:34 PM
Wow, I'm under fire.
Jwald: apparently we miscommunicated. See my previous response to 11217. Peace.
Slappy. I don't know what further there is to say to you. You obviously do not like the recent influx of folks to Brooklyn. I do, and I doubt there is anything more I could say that would convince you. I am happy with the way things are going.
Posted by: benson at August 12, 2008 4:39 PM
Slappy@4:30,
preach on!! I agree with EVERYTHING you said there and hold the same sentiment.
Posted by: clintonhillchill at August 13, 2008 11:54 AM
Latest Restaurant Additions
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Le Toukouleur
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Hibino
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Abistro
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Wing Wagon
added December 30, 2008 12:00 PM in Prospect Heights -
Babouche
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La Maison du Couscous
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Pedro's
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