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August 22, 2008

Tale of Woe at the Novo

A reader forwarded us this distress call to the Park Slope Parents list from a Novo buyer. Maybe someone has advice for her?

My husband finally did a walk through with a contractor and found many items that needed to be fixed. They made a number of small repairs while he was there, but their representative said they would not fix a number of items (one of the floorboards is a very different color than the others, one tile is cracked, noticeable scratches in the railing on the balcony that the contractor said could be buffed out, a fairly large chip is missing from the wood part of the guest bathroom medicine cabinet, numerous scratches on the balcony door and a window frame, etc. etc.) that she acknowledged were problems. We find this to be an issue because they could potentially impact the re-sale value of the apartment. She asked my husband to sign a document saying we found everything in good condition. My husband pointed out that there were several items which were not in acceptable condition, and she responded that she would not add them to the list, and pressured him to sign the document anyway. When my husband told her he would speak with me and get my input and then get back to her, she said this was unacceptable. In short, it did not make sense to me that we were purchasing something new that had obvious problems that the representative acknowledged but would not fix. We don't understand why they would acknowledge problems but simply say they would not fix them. Any thoughts or advices?

Anyone else had a similar experience?

Novo photo by Slice.

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This is typical of every new project. It is not going to be perfect --goodness, many people buy and then rip it all out! Get over it!

Posted by: BH76 at August 22, 2008 9:32 AM

WHOA. You did the right thing by not signing. Never, ever, ever let someone pressure you into signing something on the spot like that.

I would speak to a local real estate lawyer briefly about this. Shouldn't cost too much $$ and they will be able to explain to you what your rights are in this situation. It might cost you a couple hundred dollars, but absolutely worth it if you avoid signing away your rights. I'm not suggesting that you sue them, just that you get a professional who is on your side to tell you what they are asking you to sign and whether they have any right to make you sign it under those circumstances.

Posted by: lechacal at August 22, 2008 9:34 AM

Was this the first indication that you were dealing with scumbags?? Speak to a lawyer but the most likely scenario is that they may refund you some small amount of money, at best. All of this depends upon the wording of the original purchase contract.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at August 22, 2008 9:37 AM

I agree. You did the right thing by not signing. My wife and I just moved into a new 2 bedroom, 2 bath apartment in Boerum Hill. It's new construction and we're the first occupants. During our walk through a week before the closing we came up with a list of a little over a dozen things that needed to be corrected. There wasn't anything huge... clean up some paint and calk on the kitchen wall's tile, put a door knob on a closet door and paint around the door frame, install the toilet paper holder in the master bath, fix a droor in the kitchen that didn't close properly. It was all typical stuff that a developer usually sends back their best guy to put the finishing touches on before the closing. My biggest concern was that for some reason the electrical outlets in the 2nd bedroom weren't working.

One week later, during the finally walk through, I found taht every single issue has been fixed/addressed. If you are buying new construction and you are the first occupant, it's the developer's responsible to hand over the keys to an apartment in perfect condition.

The things this soon-to-be owner is talking about can all be fixed in a very short time period with very little effort.

I do have a question, though. What if after your closing you discover something that you didn't see during the walk through? Two out of the four phone jacks do not work. They appear to have not been connected. Can I call the developer and expect him to fix that or is it my responsibility now?

Posted by: TheBrooklynSteve at August 22, 2008 9:44 AM

Get your deposit back and back away from that building. These are superficial construction mistakes - but these guys are a bunch of scumbag ameteurs. It won't take too long for more signifcant structural issues to appear on this building. Get out now and count your blessings. Don't buy from Boymelgreen!

Posted by: Make My Heights the P Heights at August 22, 2008 9:45 AM

did they promise to fix the outside of the building to make it less hideous? A cloaking device might do the trick.

Posted by: dittoburg at August 22, 2008 9:48 AM

I will say that I am not a fan of the "this is typical of every new project and this is typical of NYC real estate" attitude. Lessons learned, but we were pressured A LOT with this kind of talk when we bought (1st time buyers)and I feel we were underrepresented by both our broker and lawyer. I've learned a lot by reading this site and realize our first mistake was using a lawyer suggested by the broker. It's worth it to find and pay for someone who will fight for your team. Many things are typical, for instance rounding up or down numbers; yet I didn't pay less for the condo or the broker's fee on the assumption that they would just round the money we've given them up. We don't have to be maniacs about what we expect, but we are right to expect the delivery of the product that was promised.

Posted by: Breukelen at August 22, 2008 9:50 AM

I don't expect perfection in anything but you're paying good money for this place and I'd worry if the contractor is like this now, what problems will you have down the road? Chipped new cabinet? They either must fix it or replace it.

It's outrageous the contractor would tell your husband that he behaved unacceptably by not signing the document. I'd complain to the developer and the management company. But don't sign anything until you've gotten professional advice and you feel your concerns were addressed.

Posted by: east river at August 22, 2008 9:53 AM

Um, am I supposed to be surprised? Sorry to hear what the person went through, but buyer beware. How about doing some research into where and what you are buying and whom the development team is. Save yourself a lot of heart ache/head ache and not losing your deposit when you walk away.

And the NOVO of all places. Did you just fly in from Mars? It's been on every blog, mag and paper as one of the biggest POSs in the area.

No real sympathy here...

Posted by: Action Jackson at August 22, 2008 10:02 AM

Notify your attorney of all of the things that need to be repaired. This is typical of all new projects. Estimate the cost to you if they are not done, and insist that the money be held in escrow when the closing takes place. If the developer does not fix the problems, the escrow is not released to them, and it will be released to you. Usually, lawyers try to hold a substantial amount in escrow to get the developer to make the repairs. We had the same issues with a new condo that we purchased back in 1990.

Posted by: Bklyn born at August 22, 2008 10:02 AM

Class Action or 9:45 AM (your loss in depreciation will likely be much larger than your deposit - buy back in when all becomes well if ever).

Lesson: Only buy spec at a significant discount (subjective) to compensate for these inevitable issues and risks. Better yet, don't buy spec.

Posted by: DOW8000SP800 at August 22, 2008 10:04 AM

From what I've seen, with "affordable" new construction, it seems no one gives a crap about their product. If I was the builder, I'd be embarrassed. If I was the buyer, I'd be pissed. If they refuse to fix the stuff until you [probably] give-in (I imagine you've already mentally moved there), they will probably be a bitch to deal with once you close, then find more problems.

Posted by: broadwayron at August 22, 2008 10:05 AM

I also find it rather surprising that someone could look at this place, buy it and not expect that there would be some issues.

It's been a nightmare from day one. Even when the renderings were released, it received horrible backlash from people about how hideous it was.

I'm glad you didn't sign and would also suggest you back away from this place, if you can. There are far better new construction opportunities in this area. Try Heritage.

Posted by: 11217 at August 22, 2008 10:07 AM

Whenever I am going to be in a situation where I know someone is going to shove a bunch of documents in my face and ask me to sign them, I always ask for copies of whatever they are going to ask me to sign before the meeting. They way we are on more equal footing when the meeting starts. Remember, these people have had all of the time in the world to prepare those forms and fill them out, and then they ask you to read and sign them on the spot. If it were the other way around, they would never sign without getting their lawyers to review the documents, etc.

Some people of course refuse to provide documents in advance, but in that case I think it is completely appropriate to refuse to sign on the spot and ask to review the documents overnight. Say something along the lines of "thanks for the documents, there is a lot here and I need to read them carefully before I sign them. These are your documents, so you have had plenty of time to make sure you are comfortable with them. I just want to make sure I understand them as well before I sign them, and I really can't do that with only a few minutes to review them. I hope you understand."

And never, ever trust someone who won't let you take a draft away for your review. If there is nothing to hide or worry about, it should be no problem to let you review the documents by yourself for a while.

Also, reviewing the documents without them physically present is very important. You need to sit down with a spouse, wicked smart friend, lawyers, or whatever and have a nice open dialogue about the document. You can't do that with them breathing down your neck, and you will feel pressured to review quickly, which means you will not read the document until you really understand it.

Finally, never feel like a form that someone sticks in your face is set in stone. You can always say "I will sign this but only with the following modifications." When you have a bunch of money they want, this can be very effective.

Posted by: lechacal at August 22, 2008 10:08 AM

Brooklyn Steve - a good developer will normally still fix things that you've found after closing during the first year. I'm aware of some developers who have gone back in 10 months later and put in a whole new floor once it was found that some floorboards were coming up. A good developer cares about their reputation ands wants the positive word of mouth that comes from showing that they stand behind their product. A scumbag like boymelgreen will tell you that it's not his problem and leave you holding the bag. I say you ask your developer and see what he's made of.

Posted by: Make My Heights the P Heights at August 22, 2008 10:08 AM

Nogo

Posted by: DOW8000SP800 at August 22, 2008 10:13 AM

Thanks Make My Heights the P Heights, I aprpeciate the response. I have to say I was a little worried about buying new construction from a small scale developer. No, it's not a Scarano building. But we're very happy with our choice. While the street front exterior of the building may not ne the most aesthetically pleasing, on the inside the apartment has been great. Sure, there are a few things we would have done differently, but when it comes to what was done in the constructing of the apartment, I think it shows that our developer cared about the way the finished product looked. Maybe we'd change the light fixtures in the main rooms, maybe we'd redo the master bedroom closet so that it's bigger. But these are all personal choices. As for the quality of the workmanship, I've been pleasantly surprised.

I'll let you know what the developer says when I come back to him with one or two more issues a few weeks after our closing. But this experience has taught me that you should never, ever settle for something less than perfect. You're spending a lot of money on your home. It's your greatest life decision when you choose to make this investment. If it's new construction, all those little details should be perfect. Do not sign anything until you are satisfied that the issues have been addressed to your satisfaction.

As for the idea of using a lawyer recommended by the realtor, that is wrong for so many reasons! There's so many lawyers in NY. How can someone not find one lawyer through a recommendation from a friend or a co-worker? Going with the realtor's suggestion is just plain lazy.

Posted by: TheBrooklynSteve at August 22, 2008 10:33 AM

Get a real estate lawyer who has recently experienced and helped resolve the exact same issue with new construction condos in Brooklyn. You need a lawyer who can look at this in context and be able to say to the Novo people without backing down, "this other new development in Brooklyn and this one and this one absolutely fixed the problems for their residents, it's typical in this market, it's your legal obligation and you're doing it".

And come on people, stop being so smug and superior and making fun of this person for buying there. These were family-sized (relative to NYC) 3 BR condos in the PS 321 school district for under a million. That's impossible to find and I for one am capable of understanding why some people bought there, even if I wouldn't have done so myself. Judge the developers not the people they take advantage of.

Posted by: traditionalmod at August 22, 2008 10:43 AM

I'll chime in on traditionalmod's admonition: I wouldn't have bought there either, but that isn't really the question they asked.

Or, I guess it was, but the point is that it is total BS to say you can't discuss a document like that. It doesn't always mean they're scumbags, either. A friend of mine moved into a subsidized PACC building recently and they were shocked when she said she wanted to read the lease and see the apartment before she signed. Somehow the idea that she'd want to do a little due diligence before signing on the line that is dotted was a completely bizarre move to them. She read the lease, debated the pros and cons and moved in this month. But they were all over her to just sign. Granted, they weren't trying to get money from her, they probably just want to get the units filled with a minimum of admin time, but still.

You don't have to walk away from a hard sell, but you shouldn't sign just because you feel pressured. And if they say they'll fix things, they ought to be willing to sign a document saying they'll fix things. Shouldn't be a big deal.

However, do we have any reason to think that someone whose post on Park Slope parents was forwarded to Lisa is actually going to stop by and read everyone's advice? Not so much.

So I guess the question is, are there Novo buyers around here who've experiences to share.

Posted by: serpentor at August 22, 2008 11:15 AM

I'm wondering why the contractor used the term "unacceptable." I understand a hard sell, but that has a certain air of "sign off or else." And no, I'm not envisioning broken legs or anything like that. I was thinking in terms of how difficult they will make things for the buyer in terms of time and money.

Posted by: bxgrl at August 22, 2008 11:41 AM

bxgrl...welcome back.. Weren't sure if you'd ever recover from that beat down that you took on the Forum. LOL

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at August 22, 2008 11:54 AM

boymelgreen

Posted by: BrooklynLove at August 22, 2008 12:33 PM

Thanks, dave. The last I checked in I have STFU B's balls in a paper bag waiting for him, we're having hugs all around- or group hugs if you're a Dr. Phil fan, we're all getting drunk or touchy or maybe both.

Everyone was great- even stfu b in his jingle mail confession. Gotta love a guy who can admit it with humor. And you're a real stand up guy!

Posted by: bxgrl at August 22, 2008 12:39 PM

If you think you will be renovating, take it as it comes. If you hesitate at all here, freakin walk. There are SO many condo/coops in inventory that you should not settle for any shinanigans. Walk!

Posted by: b_green5 at August 22, 2008 2:00 PM

I think you guys are being sorta mean... I might be indignant and outraged by the absurd and unsustainable levels of real estate overinflation, but I'm not going to tell someone they made a huge mistake and make them feel bad about what they just paid a princely sum for.

Maybe NOVO is not the best place, but to tell someone completely non-constructive and, probably, offensive things about her new HOME is mean spirited.

"You should have known better...."
"That's what you get for buying a place at NOVO..."
"Everyone knows this developer is terrible..."

This person wanted to know how to fix the things that are wrong with her property. This happens with ALL homes, new and old. Come on. When someone asks for help, don't respond by being a bunch of tw@ts.

Now... if she turns around and tries to sell her place for $1.2 million (as the market is wont to do), you will get a taste of my fury! But as it is, I think she may actually just be trying to make a good life for herself and her husband in Go-Slo... one of the few remaining neighborhoods in Brooklyn that the average person can afford.

Posted by: tybur6 at August 22, 2008 2:12 PM

Go-Slo?

Oh my god. I think that's worse than the nauseating Bo Co Ca. Bo Ca Ca...oops, excuse me. Wrong thread.

Posted by: cobblehiller at August 22, 2008 2:38 PM

How about "Park Slope West"? We can't call it Gowanus, that's against the rules.

Posted by: tybur6 at August 22, 2008 2:42 PM

Yes, Park Slope West - that's much better. Let's just never ever use Go Slo ever ever again, ok? Promise?

Posted by: cobblehiller at August 22, 2008 2:50 PM

really, 2:12 is right. for many, a combination of psf, size of apt, location, etc... limits the amount of apts that a person can consider. even though there appears to be so much inventory, many times there aren't a lot of choices. this leads to compromises.

i think that this person can put everything into writing, and get them to agree to fix it.

our condo bldg had many issues - but we worked with the developer to get solutions.

sometimes, the developer is unaware of personnel changes even with their contractor, and it is likely that nothing will be perfect.

with that said, i would advise all buying new construction to hire a real inspector. we did and the guy was terrific - he helped us to get some interior things fixed, and also gave a great review of the overall construction.

there's a lot of people on this site who are quick to dismiss the construction of new condos with no real information. just because there may be some issues with the interior finishes, does not mean that the construction is bad. sometimes it not the same crews on the whole job. the other thing to remember is that the some of the laborers doing the interiors may not have the same aesthetic sense that you do. just deal with the punch list and get it all fixed.

Posted by: wine lover at August 22, 2008 3:12 PM

I hear what you're saying wine lover. But big chip on a brand new cabinet? You don't to be a refined aesthete to know that's damage. And a contractor telling a client it's unacceptable for them not to sign off on condition? No way. The contractor is a little too pushy -pressure like that gets my antenna up.

Posted by: east river at August 22, 2008 3:58 PM

I'm not dissing new construction and I certainly fall into the category of people who are buying for value and can't afford the super-high end developments. WHat I'm saying is that Boymelgreen is a bad developer. Buying in this building was a mistake. I'm not trying to make anyone feel bad - I'm offering them advice. The current experience is just the tip of the iceberg. I feel confident that if the current buyer goes through with this and closes, he will soon realize that his problems run much deeper than a chip on a bathroom vanity. By refusing to fix valid complaints on a punchlist, the developer is actually doing you a favor. You can now go to your lawyer with valid grounds for demanding your deposit back. Get out and buy from a more reputable developer and thank your lucky stars.

Posted by: Make My Heights the P Heights at August 22, 2008 4:18 PM

I bought a unit @ the Novo. There were little things to be fixed but didn't make a big deal.

I'll tell you what I am worried about. @ the closing I asked what's going on with the tax abatement. The Novo's attorney didn't know (didn't care). I made a few phone calls (I am from the business). Turned out they don't even have a preliminary certificate yet. (This isn't good - 3 years after with no certificate). I am sure we are going to get hit hard with high taxes (once finance dept. reassess the building - again I am from the business).

Check your schedule A for : taxes without abatement and multiply by 1.8. That would be a more accurate number.

On a more joyful note - despite what others think, this is a good building in a good area (Its not 7th and 9th street but it is a full amenity building.

Posted by: Ethan at August 22, 2008 5:26 PM

Ethan and all;

I live in a BG building quite close to the Novo. Don't let the naysayers get you down. I bought into my building when it was new, and we had quite a few issues, but he eventually made good on them. It takes a lot longer than you'll be happy with, but it turns out alright. In fact, he's still working with us to resolve some issues, even though he long ago sold his last unit in our building.

What I would advise you is to document all the punch list items at the time of closing. As someone suggested, demand an escrow account to make sure he is on the hook. You have to be persistent with them to make sure they follow up. They do not react well to threats of a lawsuit, and I would discourage that tactic unless you really do want to go to the mat with them. Note, however, that Boymelgreen can outlawyer almost anyone.

As far as the tax abatement, it took almost 9 months after we moved in to receive it.

Good luck! Remember that buying a new building is not like buying a new car. There WILL be issues, and it usually takes 2 years to iron the kinks out. Enjoy your new home.

Posted by: benson at August 22, 2008 7:55 PM

My wife and I have visited The Crest (a new condo building one block north by the same developer). We have seen the units in the last stages of construction. The work appeared shoddy at best, but it seems most if not all the problems were superficial (as you mentioned) and should be fairly easy to fix. The bigger issue, mentioned above, is the incredible mystery sorrounding the 421a tax abatement. The Corcoran agent would only state that the application is in progress. Nothing more. Further e mail requests only led to several dead ends - attorneys, accountants who were never available and never return calls. Contacted the tax dept. - they only have the preliminary application at the time construction started (10/19/06) - nothing else. In summary, whatever money you might have to spend to fix these minor problems pales in comparison to the taxes you will be paying for a "tax abatement" condo. Good luck.

Posted by: sjtmd at August 22, 2008 9:32 PM

I also just bought in a new condo building, and would recommend getting everything fixed BEFORE closing. Once you sign, you have no leverage for anything. If the developer is not going to fix everything on your punchlist, that needs to be documented and compensated. You definitely need a good aggressive lawyer - preferable one with experience in new developments.

Fortunately, my developer has been good about fixing things that have come up after closing, but I don't think all developers are like this. I've heard of new developments in Park Slope flooding because of poor construction - be very thorough in your walk through.

Posted by: hk4bk at August 22, 2008 11:11 PM

Folks;

I'm jumping in again because there is some mis-information going on here (specifically sjtmd's post). As I mentioned in my original post, it takes time for the tax abatement to go through after occupancy. In the case of my condo, it took about 9 months. When it does go through, however, it is applied retroactively, and you receive a refund for the taxes you paid prior to the abatement being official. Hence, in the end, the delay does not cost you anything.

Posted by: benson at August 23, 2008 8:22 AM

actually benson - it's not that simple. your experience is what happens when the sponsor delivers. there are many places where the developer lags in getting the permanent CO thereby delaying it for years and sometimes putting the abatement in jeopardy. This tends to happen less frequently for 421As than J51s but the risk is still there. These residents need to ride Boymelgreen (or whoever the sponsor is at this point) or else they risk living for years in abatement limbo.

For example, people have been living at Arris Lofts in LIC for over a year now and they're on their 9th temporary CO right now, and as a result, still w/o an abatement.

Posted by: BrooklynLove at August 23, 2008 8:54 AM

Sorry, Benson. No misinformation about the lack of information in THIS case. This developer has hid behind a veil of secrecy when it comes to the status of the tax abatement applications of his new buildings. I agree w/ BrooklynLove (as does my attorney) that the abatement is not automatic in all cases. Yes, the taxes are repaid retro-actively IF an abatement is granted. In this budget cutting / tax revenue hungry environment, it is doubtful that the NYC tax dept. would be willing to cut a developer slack if an application is improperly filed.

Posted by: sjtmd at August 23, 2008 9:20 AM

Brooklyn Love and Sjtmd;

Sorry to say, but you are still incorrect. My condo is now coming on its fourth year, and we still only have a temporary C of O. We are expecting to get our permanent C of O shortly. This is not atypical for new developments, and has as much to do with the DOB's bureauacracy as the developer. In fact, at least in our case, Boymelgreen put money into escrow at the time of the offering plan, and that money cannot be released until we receive our permanent C of O. He still has some skin in the game even though he's long sold out his last unit in our development.

As to the explicit misinformation, here it is: the tax abatement is NOT contingent on receiving the permanent C of O. As I mentioned above, we received our abatement almost 3 years ago and we only had a temporary C of O at that time and we are still in that status, as I just mentioned.

Posted by: benson at August 23, 2008 10:57 AM

Not that you need to do this at this point, but if they continue to disregard your concerns and, as professionals keep asking you to sign a legal document that is incorrect-

be aware that the Attorney General's office is gathering information on shoddy and dishonest developers and may be looking to take action against them. Again, I know that is extreme- but for the money these condos are commanding they should make sure they live up to the expectations and claims they are marketing!

You may, in any case, want to check in to the AG's office to see if your developer is one of the many that already has case complaints filed.

Best of luck!

Posted by: gimmeabreak at August 23, 2008 4:28 PM

benson - if you're in your 4th year and you still have a temp CO and think that's ok then you're either very relaxed or very misinformed. what is the address of your building and is the abatement j51 or 421a? let me try my hand at digging up some info on your place and you can tell me what's wrong with what i find.

Posted by: BrooklynLove at August 23, 2008 11:38 PM

also meant to point out that delay in getting a permanent CO does delay and jeopardize the abatement finalization, regardless of whether a permanent CO is or isn't a nececssary pre-req. anyway, if your building is in its 4th year and still is w/o a permanent CO you have other things to worry about. or not worry about i guess.

Posted by: BrooklynLove at August 23, 2008 11:45 PM

No matter where you are or what you are doing, there are people who work there who consider it routine. They are largely unconcerned with the fact that it is a major milestone in your life and would rather you just signed the paper. In fact, they are likely to get pissy if you are making it difficult for them to get out by 5 pm (2:30 on fridays). Everyone runs into this mentality, especially in real estate, law and medicine.

Dont let their attitude affect you.

Posted by: slick at August 24, 2008 4:37 PM

This developer hires this bulldog called 'Mercedes' to do walk throughs, we went through the same experience at 75 Smith.
I got my lawyer to escrow additional funds at closing to account for un-finished items.
Sorry to hear you had the same experience!

Posted by: Test at August 25, 2008 12:51 PM

I think that commenters here ought to restrain their inclinations to blame the victim.

People ought to be able to demand that new construction be, well, new, not broken, and it's hardly useful to tell them that they shouldn't have such expectations.

Posted by: David Lewis at January 27, 2009 3:18 PM

« Gehry Ousted as BAM Theater Architect Return of the Stoop Pooper »

August 22, 2008

Tale of Woe at the Novo

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