« Dime Savings Bank's Exterior Restoration a Wrap Painful Side Effect of 4th Ave. Firehouse Reno »

August 26, 2008

Green on Brownstoner #1: Salvage on a Budget

Our first installment of Green on Brownstoner finds Gennaro Brooks-Church renovating a Carroll Gardens brownstone with the environment in mind. Unable to find the kind of help he wanted, he ended up becoming a green contractor himself. If you have a tale of going green in Brooklyn, please let us know.
We were in contract for over a year because when we started it was easy to get a no doc reasonable rate loan with 10% down. By the end we were happy just to get a loan. We scraped equity lines of credit and loans together to meet the down payment and finally closed in March for $1.4 million.

The house had been cheaply renovated in the 50s and needed some work. I decided to do the job myself because I’m too experimental with out there green ideas and I knew this would cause all sorts of problems with a contractor. I got my contractor’s license, formed a company called ECO Brooklyn Inc. and started pulling stuff out. At first we were just going to pull a little bit out but the floors were full of termites and the ceilings were bowed and before we knew it the whole place was gutted. This was the first green decision we had to make: keep it or trash it.

Some considerations were:
- If it is in good condition why tear it out?
- If you just don’t like the style make sure you find somebody who can reuse it.
- Is it more sustainable to replace it with something greener or keep the one you have (a more efficient furnace for example)?
- Light, air, and nice spaces are green. It might pay to rip it out if you can increase the qualities of these elements (despite the waste).

I had nightmare experiences with my first architect. He did not get the concept that cutting down on materials does not mean cutting quality. And to him the idea of using salvaged materials was akin to reusing toilet paper. I fired him. Meanwhile I spent time in dumpsters and salvage yards. You can’t go into scrap metal yards because they won’t sell to you but I wait outside and get the junk vans before they enter the yard. I bought most of my lintels this way.

All my wood for beams has been purchased from salvaged wood yards, mostly Fine Lumber. The wood is rock hard and much better than anything you could buy today. And the price is very similar if not cheaper. The irony is that the DOB does not allow it on new construction.

I plan on cutting the salvaged wood for flooring as well unless I come across salvaged floors. Just today I arranged with a neighbor down the street who is renovating to get some of her salvaged wood flooring. Sadly she had thrown out three floors (1800 sq. ft = $7200) the day before. That wood now sits in a landfill somewhere. I would have paid her to take it. Instead she paid to get rid of it and the circle of waste continued.

I am building a green roof both for beauty and to feed the bee hive we are going to put up there. The south-facing wall will hold water heating panels. If I find the funding I will buy solar panels for electricity. I also found these cool air heating panels that pass solar heated air into the house.

The floor will be heated with radiant heating. I’m looking into building my own aluminum panels beneath the hot water tubes to avoid paying above my budget for pre-made aluminum panels.

I’ve thought of a novel way to heat the water that goes into the radiant heating. Normally the water is heated with an efficient boiler. But boilers are not as efficient as on demand heaters that heat the water only when it is needed. But on demand heaters are not traditionally used for radiant heating so I’m still trying to sort that one out. This would be the greenest solution.

For the windows I want fiberglass frame windows. This is a recent development and only a few specialty places make them. Fiberglass has better insulation qualities than wood or vinyl and uses less energy to produce than wood, vinyl or aluminum windows.

The house insulation is still up in the air. Icynene foam spray is great but costly. Recycled paper might be the best way to go in conjunction with a DIY spray foam to make things air tight. There is a company I found that sells salvaged insulation but I have a concern with how old the insulation is. If the insulation is new then it will off gas a lot of formaldehyde. If it is old then the off gassing will have passed for the most part and it might be better.

The walls will mostly be exposed brick or clay. There is good clay on the market but I am experimenting with the earth from the basement I’m digging out. It is beautiful earth and I suspect will work wonderfully. In terms of sheet rock and sound proofing I will make my own version of the very costly “Quiet Rock” but using cheaper sound proofing caulk between two layers of sheet rock.

My goal is to a make a green house within my budget. Regardless of my budget I strongly feel that a key element of green not only means it is good for the environment but that it is affordable to the mainstream. A lot of my experimentation involves studying complex and expensive designs and finding equivalent simple local solutions.

We have spent 60k so far and have an ambitious goal of spending no more than 160k more for the 4 floors, basement and roof. Other contractors laugh when I tell them this. I honestly don’t know how much it will really cost. It depends on such variables as what I find in dumpsters and whether somebody invents a viable on demand water heater for radiant heating in the next three months. The experimenting continues at a feverish race against time, mortgage payments.




Trackback Pings

TrackBack URL for this entry:
http://www.brownstoner.com/mte/mt-tb.cgi/5933

Comments

I am currently heating my three-floor house by recycling the hot air from the trolls on this blog.

But I kid.

Good luck with your project. It sounds like you have a lot of interesting ideas. I had no idea radiant heat was more efficient than any other kind of heating. Have you thought of planting trees on the south side of your property? They shade the house from heat in the summer, then when they loose their leaves in the winter they let the heat pass through to your house.

Posted by: madison_st at August 26, 2008 11:35 AM

Good for Gennaro Brooks-Church and his dumpster-diving acumen; let's hope that his DIY approach will be copied by many others looking to renovate their homes, although I reckon that most of us lack the skills, time, and drive to do what he is attempting. Gennaro—probably a hard question to answer, but what is your time frame on this project?

Posted by: Fjorder at August 26, 2008 11:44 AM

This is really interesting. I'm looking forward to reading more in the weeks to come.

Posted by: Montrose Morris at August 26, 2008 12:34 PM

Keep up the good work. I would love to see pictures of your green roof once it flourishes. I have seen a couple around that look like they have died so I am curious what plants will take well on our hot, exposed roofs.

You can insulate with used phonebooks but I am not sure how effective this is and I imagine they require some sort of fire retardant. Hell, why not bluejeans like Adrien Grenier's house! I am sure you will come up with something.

Best of luck and keep us in the loop.

Posted by: offthegrid at August 26, 2008 1:10 PM

Good luck and keep us posted!
I'm interested in how the spray foam insulation works out & costs.

Posted by: Spunky123 at August 26, 2008 1:11 PM

about how much time do you devote per week to the project?

Posted by: i disagree at August 26, 2008 1:39 PM

"I am building a green roof both for beauty and to feed the bee hive we are going to put up there."

I hope that doesn't become a trend.
But, kudos to this guy for going way out of his way to make this happen.

Posted by: broadwayron at August 26, 2008 2:22 PM

why would you want a bee hive?

Posted by: Spunky123 at August 26, 2008 2:35 PM

Has anyone noticed there are no work permits in the windows of the photographs?

DOB site...has a stop work order...going green but not following the construction guidelines that everyone else follows...what does that tell you about the story that has been posted here...?

http://a810-bisweb.nyc.gov/bisweb/PropertyProfileOverviewServlet?boro
=3&houseno=22&street=2nd+street&requestid=0&s
=A03C41B885B461E4F46BD08866A7430E

...the bee hive...and honey...no license or permits required.

Posted by: mrsmith at August 26, 2008 3:04 PM

No tell us, what does that mean?

Posted by: cobblehiller at August 26, 2008 3:56 PM

Mr. Smith, DOB permits are supposed to be posted where they are able to be read. If Mr. Brooks-Church put any permits on any of his front facing windows, they'd be three stories above the ground. I don't think they'd be easily readable up there. I'm sure they're posted somewhere that you can't see in the photos.

If you looked a little further in the BIS System, you'd notice that the stop work order on the site was issued because the Borough Commissioner revoked the approved plans that the architect, Ira Sherman, self-certified a year and a half before Mr. Brooks-Church purchased the property. Generally, this is the result of a lazy architect not putting enough detail on plans before he self certifies them. There is no mention on the stop work order complaint of work being done contrary to those approved plans. Your accusation that the architect's shenanigans on plans that were filed before Mr. Brooks-Church even bought the property in some way taints his noble effort to go green is laughable.

I've done some work with Mr. Brooks-Church, and found him to be reasonable and honest. Please, before you shit in someone else's coffee, take a sniff of what's floating in your own cup.

Posted by: Shahn Andersen at August 26, 2008 4:49 PM

This is going to be a really fascinating thread. Keep us posted!

Posted by: lurker in the mist at August 26, 2008 5:28 PM

Hey thanks for the comments!
BTW I put a web site www.EcoBrooklyn.com where I'll be posting the progress of 22 2nd Street.

To answer your questions:
"Have you thought of planting trees on the south side of your property?"
I hadn't thought of how trees let sun pass in winter and make shade in summer. Duh! The only problem is that I will probably be placing solar panels on the south wall since the roof is being used for greenery. Solar guys get a squeamish when I mention putting panels on the building face. They also get pricey....but we'll see. I hope to work with one who will allow me to install them. NYCERTA certification and all that. God bless them they are needed. It is just like licensed plumbers, though. I fully understand the need for quality but when a licensed plumber charges $900 for something I could do for $50 I wonder if the law isn't creating a monopoly. No offense to good honest plumbers.

"what is your time frame on this project?"
My girlfriend asks me this quite often...and I ask my architect the same thing. Why do architects boil my blood? They are like forgetful professors who have no respect for time or money (my time and money). I hope to be done in four months. I also said that four months ago. I only have one person to blame: me for choosing the architect I chose. In all fairness to my architects past and present (who will surely read this) they have their own story.

"I am curious what plants will take well on our hot, exposed roofs."
I will use low laying succulents that flourish in low water, high sun, and little earth situations. It will have to be watered the first year...a small price for the years of green roof.

"You can insulate with used phonebooks but I am not sure how effective this is"
When I said recycled paper I didn't mean from the dumpster. I meant cellulose. For example Green Fiber which you can buy at Home Depot now! Although the wet blow in version is better because it creates an airtight seal and does not settle.
"Hell, why not bluejeans like Adrien Grenier's house!"
Because when you build without a budget like Adrien you aren't green regardless of the material. Life may be abundant but we certainly haven't mastered the skill and too many live in need to build recklessly. And bluejean insulation, although wonderful and green, is stratospherically expensive.

"I'm interested in how the spray foam insulation works out & costs."
Spray foam is about $1 per square foot one inch high and give a range of 3-5 R value. DIY foam is also about the same. Cellulose spray on insulation is cheaper and slightly better R value, although foam people contest that.

"about how much time do you devote per week to the project?"
Full time.

""I am building a green roof both for beauty and to feed the bee hive we are going to put up there."
I hope that doesn't become a trend."
I do. The bees need all the help they can get right now.

"why would you want a bee hive?"
Bees form a huge part of our ecosystem and are currently in crisis. And they make less mess than pigeons.

Regarding MrSmiths comment about no work permit, your account was created a couple hours ago specifically to slander this thread in anonymity. Mr Smith you are a coward. Get a life. I know who you are. Bees are not the only flying insects that bite.

I had a stop work order because the old architect withdrew his plans, rightly so since he was no longer on the job. And the new architect has not submitted his. Just like Mr Anderson correctly uncovered.

Posted by: gennaro at August 26, 2008 7:09 PM

Finally, someone who refuses to pay 9k for something that costs $900.00. How refreshing. Denton, take notes! Mr. Brooks-Church, you and I are living parallel lives right now. You have my full attention and support.

Posted by: pig three at August 26, 2008 10:00 PM

Mr pig three,
You and I are not alone. All the greenwashing aside, it does seem green is a veritable revolution right now. In NY green is definitely the new black.

It is the first bandwagon I've jumped on since, well, ever.

Posted by: gennaro at August 26, 2008 10:14 PM

Gennaro,

Do not sell yourself short! The bandwagon carries those who do know where they are going, and if they did - would have no idea how to get there. It's early, but it seem that your approach is what "green" was intended to be, before it was coined "green". If someone were to analyze all these "green certified" projects, I am sure they would come out like sliced swiss.

Posted by: pig three at August 26, 2008 10:47 PM

I have been looking into insulation as well. Check out this post on the Fourm. April 21, 2008 Icynene Vs Fiberglass. Just info to consider on Icynene.

Posted by: pig three at August 27, 2008 7:40 AM

Correction,

Bandwagon is for those who DON"T know where they are going.

Posted by: pig three at August 27, 2008 9:32 AM

I used Icynene in my basement and dry cellulose in the rest of the walls in my house. They both serve a purpose and seem to be doing a good job. If I had to do it again, I'd use the wet spray cellulose on open framing rather than dry cellulose in closed walls. I have my suspicions that the company I used missed a few places when they sprayed into the wall cavities.

Posted by: Shahn Andersen at August 27, 2008 10:48 AM

Have you looked into annualized geo solar?
http://greenershelter.org/index.php?pg=3

Store summer heat in the soil (10 ft) under your foundation, where it radiates through the floor 6 mo later.

Another use for your roof!

Posted by: VWfeature at August 27, 2008 11:57 AM

[lost my comment, may be duplicated]

Wonderful news, excellent ideas.

Don't see how on-demand heater could be better than a super-hi-eff boiler, the former are about 85-88% eff, the latter top out at 96-98%. Also, on-demand may not be durable in a near-100% duty cycle in winter as they are not designed for that; boilers are.

Posted by: cmu at August 27, 2008 1:10 PM

yes shahn settling is an issue for dry spray in cellulose if you don't use this plastic chicken wire that you attach to the studs that allows you to spray it in an see it at the same time. once the walls are closed you can't see. it is pretty common to top the cellulose off after a year or so by cutting little holes in the top of the wall spraying in and then pluggin up. a pain but maybe worth it. the wet is definitely the way to go to avoid all that. but like you pointed out icynene is probably better in possibly humid places since it is open celled and allows the space to breathe without storing any of the humidity in it's cells.

Posted by: gennaro at August 27, 2008 1:14 PM

hi cmu,
that is interesting what you say about boilers being more efficient than on demand. it was my understanding that on demand was more efficient. i'll have to do more research. are you taking into consideration the fact that on demand only works once in a while but a boiler heats all day?

and of course that addresses the other point: my on demand WOULD work all day if it is heating the floors....hmmm....that is the main point.

and yes on demand does not have a reputation for lasting as long...i grew up in Europe and only had on demand so i know how well they work and might be partial.

Posted by: gennaro at August 27, 2008 1:33 PM

I'm not sure what you meant by "on demand only works once in a while but a boiler heats all day"...they will both run as much as needed to produce the heat necessary.

A modern boiler, particularly a modulating one (more expensive, yes, but able to regulate the heat output), has an OVERALL efficiency of 96-97%. The amount of time it's actually running is irrelevant. The small amount of water stored in the boiler may need a fraction more energy to heat, but that's taken into effect for the eff. calculation.

Wouldn't mind discussing some your ideas...my email is cmurthi [that character] seeinggreen [dot] net.

Posted by: cmu at August 27, 2008 2:28 PM

To answer "off the grid's" question;
I'm consulting with Gennaro for the green roof portion of the project. The plant's that we have chosen are native desert plants that require little water for survival. The second consideration for our selection is flowers for the bees. We want to have at least two species blooming at all times between April and October. Some edible plants do great in this environment and may make it into the mix as well. Over the course of the year conditions may be better for one plant than another; one may flourish and the next may die back. Because of this at least eight species will be planted to ensure that the green roof is lush through 3 1/2 seasons. It is also common to replant particular areas because of various conditions like wind or shade. Every roof is different and a little trial and error is sometimes necessary.

Posted by: matthew difrancesco at August 27, 2008 10:52 PM

Post a comment

Please be patient while your comment is published. It may take a moment.

Latest Restaurant Additions