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August 18, 2008
Co-op of the Day: 1 Plaza Street
This may be the one time we can remember a listing saying that a bathroom needs to be renovated when, in our opinion, it looks perfect! (We will readily concede that the kitchen could in fact benefit from a makeover.) Other than that, this two-bedroom, one-bathroom apartment at 1 Plaza Street in Park Slope looks like a decent pre-war blank slate, albeit one with a fairly high monthly maintenance of $1,265. The building itself and the location are obviously sweet, though, and the apartment is on a high enough floor that views clear the surrounding townhouses. All this for $769,000. Good deal?
1 Plaza Street [Brooklyn Properties] GMAP P*Shark
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Comments
If I am not mistaken, I belive the board requires at least 25% down for this building.
Posted by: MacD at August 18, 2008 12:56 PM
ordinary apartment with obviously great location. without any mention of sq footage, its probably safe to say this is a very small 2BR.
Posted by: bktycoon at August 18, 2008 12:57 PM
When I read "needs kitchen & Bath Up-Grade + Cosmetic TLC Thru-Out" I hesitate. Then looking at those pics I see an apartment with absolutely no character (although it may look better if it were staged, I again am discouraged. The icing on the buyers beware cake—for me and many others—is then the $1,265 monthly maintenance nut and if MacD is correct, a 25% down payment.
However, many will like the location and the school zone; but no one is going to pay $769K for a place that needs a minimum of 75K of cosmetic work.
Posted by: Fjorder at August 18, 2008 1:16 PM
Looks like a nice apartment. convenient to the subway and high enough to set you away from the traffic on Flatbush Avenue. The single bathroom and the very high maintenance are the two negatives. Because of those two things I would say that this is priced high. I think it will sell more in the neighborhood of 720-730. That's assuming that the market does not weaken further, that the building's financials are A-One, and that at least half the maint. is tax deductible.
Posted by: sam at August 18, 2008 1:21 PM
About eight years ago I looked at a very similar two-bedroom in this building (perhaps the same one) for a little over $200,000.
It was a comfortable size and quite livable, although the elevator creaked very badly and the building's intersection with Flatbush isn't very attractive.
No doubt Meier's On Prospect Park's prices are rippling around Grand Army Plaza.
Frankly, I'd much rather live here than OPP. It's pre-war and more convenient to Seventh and Fifth Avenues. And doesn't seem overpriced for what Park Slope's become.
Posted by: NOP at August 18, 2008 1:24 PM
I agree, it looks comfortable, I don't think it is "very small" I wonder why prior poster thought that? Two bedroom units in cut-up brownstones tend to be "very small" but in solid elevator pre-war buildings like this they tend to be well proportioned.
Still, the maintenance is very high and the area has just appreciated too much too quickly.
I don't like being right on Flatbush either.
If the building has a garage that would be a big plus.
Posted by: sam at August 18, 2008 1:43 PM
"...without any mention of sq footage..."
Nope. No a bad deal, but not a good deal neither. And who would give you one for this building and location?
Posted by: DOW8000SP800 at August 18, 2008 1:49 PM
[Not]
Posted by: DOW8000SP800 at August 18, 2008 1:52 PM
When I looked at that GoogleMap location, I really got excited. $769,000 at 1st & 1st in Manhattan? Sold!
Posted by: Rookie at August 18, 2008 2:06 PM
We lived in a nearly identical building (judging by the interior layout) on the UWS a number of years ago. There's actually a fair amount of character; the moldings are poplar, the beamed ceiling breaks up the rooms well. These prewars also had picture rail molding originally, which is easy enough to install.
The condition, though, is puzzling. Usually when a realtor says a place needs TLC it's usually falling down. I suspect here the moldings are hidden under 20 layers of paint and the walls are pretty bad. Bath tiles could be cracked etc. The kitchen looks easy enough to redo but it won't be cheap.
Price doesn't seem outrageous, but to me that maint. is a bit high. I'd try to find out when the last increase was and what capital expenses might be coming up. If there's been a recent increase and work has been done on hallways etc., then you're probably ok.
Posted by: Bolder at August 18, 2008 2:14 PM
That seems a bit high--especially with that maintenance, and with the obvious work that needs to happen (you might like the bathroom, 'stoner, but lots of people won't). Not sure which way I would go myself. I've seen worse....
Isn't this the building that had the ground-floor 1-bed as a Co-op of the Day recently?
Posted by: BrooklynButler at August 18, 2008 2:18 PM
Bolder-if there has been a recent maintenance increase at/near the same time period that work was done on the hallways, I'd back out of the deal as soon as I could. Why would a bldg. with solid financials use a maint. increase for bldg. improvements and upgrades? That is what a reserve fund is for.
Posted by: Fjorder at August 18, 2008 2:29 PM
Are you guys all friggin' nuts?!! Seriously... 3/4 of a million dollars for a VERY mediocre 2-bed, 1 bath apartment. And the maintenance alone is the monthly rent of a small 1-bed in that exact area.
And let's pretend for a second that this price tag isn't insane... The kitchen looks old and cheap. The rooms have no character, it has that icky parquet flooring used in college student rental apartments....
So... back to the price. $750,000. 25% down is $187,500. Yikes! Now the remaining $562,500. A 30-year mortgage at 5.75% is... wait for it.... $3,283 a month!! With the ridiculous maintenance fee for such a large multi-unit building, that's a total of $4,548 per month. That's before property taxes etc.
So, at $4,548 per month... or $54,576 per year... are you seriously going to tell me this place is OK? The price tag is on-target?! Honestly, this should be MAYBE a $2000/$2200 a month 2-bed if you were to rent it. It's the GRAND ARMY Plaza, not the Plaza. The location isn't that great... I know, I live a block away.
Posted by: tybur6 at August 18, 2008 3:14 PM
The bathroom looks good, but "perfect?" No.
Posted by: East New York at August 18, 2008 3:23 PM
While I am not saying this place is reasonably priced, I defy you find a 1BR rental in this area for $1,265/mo. A small studio will cost you more than that. Sad but true.
Posted by: SnarkSlope at August 18, 2008 3:26 PM
Fjorder - I'm not sure many would like the school zone - it's NOT in the prized District 15, and also not in 321 (generally one of the most popular schools - but other District 15 school are popular too). I'm starting to think Brooklyn Properties is becoming what people used to think about Corcoran - way overpricing properties...
Posted by: Miss Muffett at August 18, 2008 3:35 PM
small 1beds around around 1700 in the area
Posted by: Santa at August 18, 2008 3:42 PM
Judge for yourself.
http://www.insideschools.org/fs/school_profile.php?id=395
Posted by: Fjorder at August 18, 2008 3:42 PM
tybu:
three quarters of a million dollars for a 2-bedroom co-op in a good elevator building in a good location is in no way nuts. In fact it is reasonable. Have you been away for a while?
what we are saying is that the maintenance is high and that the bath and kitchen may need some work. This could bring the price down.
But unlike houses, coops in good buildings seem to be doing pretty well price-wise. But time will tell.
Posted by: sam at August 18, 2008 3:44 PM
OK... I might have been exaggerating about a 1-bed for $1265. But you COULD find a pretty decent alcove-style studio for that price, no problem.
I also want to remind everyone, this is Grand Army Plaza... not North Slope. This is Flatbush and Subway (eat fresh). Not 7th Ave and bistros. It's Brooklyn, not fantasy land.
A block away - 2 bedroom, 1 bath, probably same condition... $2300. Or a difference of $26,976 per year. If you think the price tag will appreciate $300,000 in 10 years, you could very well break even! Oh, I can also move if my neighbors piss me off instead of waiting for the co-op board to approve who's allowed to buy my property! (OK, yes... that was meant as a snarky comment not to start a conversation about the wonders of co-ops.)
Posted by: tybur6 at August 18, 2008 3:45 PM
radiators, ugly windows, complete bath and kitchen make over? AND, $1265 per month on top of that? ickkkk... soo ugly. you can get a condo with central air, 2 baths and laundry for that.
probably really small if they won't list the sq. footage too.
Posted by: wine lover at August 18, 2008 3:50 PM
Sam,
I have not been away for a while... there is a difference between "reasonable" and the "going rate." This city (all five boroughs of it) has gone nuts.
Have you noticed that in order to find a place that is objectively "nice" you are pretty much in the $2 million range. By nice I mean, of course, well-maintained (preserving all of the character etc) and up-to-date features like kitchens and bathrooms. Below that range you're looking at crap holes that require a ton of work, but still have enormous price tags.
Sam - I'm not a real estate prospector that is looking at $750,000 mediocrity and saying "Ooooh, well, co-ops in this area are doing well, it should be worth a cool million in a couple years!!" I'm looking at this pile of mediocrity and saying, "Christ, what is WRONG with you nutters out there accepting these crazy prices and calling them REASONABLE!?!"
That's all I'm saying.
Posted by: tybur6 at August 18, 2008 3:55 PM
works out to about 4,000 per month with mortgage & mtc!
pretty hefty!
Posted by: binnyG at August 18, 2008 3:55 PM
TyBurg:
Do you dislike the idea of coops because you feel that you may be rejected as a buyer? Most Boards are pretty inclined to approve purchase applications unless the individual is lying about something, or hiding assets, or really obnoxious.
Most people have no problem getting in (unless it is one of those snooty Manhattan-celebrity buildings), and by vetting buyers, the building really protects its financial position, especially in times like the ones we have just been through when people who could not afford to buy real estate were roped-in by unethical lenders.
Posted by: sam at August 18, 2008 3:57 PM
Some of you are out of touch with prices.
In searching craigslist, this is the closest and least expensive STUDIO I found in this area (and that means North Park Slope)
$1850.
http://newyork.craigslist.org/brk/abo/800366601.html
My neighbor just told me she and her roommate pay $2800 for a small 2 bedroom in a brownstone (not far from here), and it certainly doesn't have a doorman and isn't in a top of the line building like this.
I don't think this price is outrageous at all (I do think the maint is high) but you all do realize that you pay 750k for a nice 2 bedroom in many nice neighborhoods of Portland, Seattle and Boston, right?
Posted by: 11217 at August 18, 2008 4:06 PM
I think there's nothing wrong with Co-Ops... you're right, they have some very positive aspects. (That's why I said the co-op comment was just a snarky side comment.)
I have a SERIOUS problem with inflated real estate. It's doubly bad. Basically, unless you are earning well into range of 6-figures, your choices are limited to mediocrity at best (like this co-op unit) or far worse. Regardless of what you have settled on (and it is most usually settling, regardless of what you've convinced yourself to think), a HUGE portion of your income is devoted to basic shelter. A much larger portion than most other places on earth with the exception of maybe London, San Francisco and San Diego.
The only reason these price tags are sustainable is because WAAAAY too many people with, apparently, extra cash to throw around have decided to equate REASONABLE with GOING RATE. And now, this is what we have.... a 2-bed, 1-bath pile of mediocrity in a pretty OK location, in a nondescript building for 3/4 of a million dollars.
Posted by: tybur6 at August 18, 2008 4:11 PM
I enjoy people's comments on this thread.
It's as if the apartment has to do all the work for them!
What, no one has art, furniture, and rugs to create a comfortable place?
Better to put your money in art and antiques that appreciate over time rather than the latest kitchen and bathroom gizmos that are out of date in five years! (Another bonus: you can take them with you when you move!)
Honestly, who lives in their kitchens and bathrooms?
Apartments like these make nice palettes for people's personal expression. And they were designed with this in mind. By the 20's, architects and developers gave up a lot of interior frou-frou so that residents could decorate as they liked.
But some people, apparently, don't trust their own taste.
And 25% down for a nice pre-war? Over here in Manhattan, 50% and all-cash are often the requirement.
Again, when I looked about eight years ago, this or a similar unit in the building was asking $200,000. At today's $750,000, the appreciation at One Plaza is about the same as the Upper East Side.
Looks like a good bet to me.
Posted by: NOP at August 18, 2008 4:12 PM
And... 11217 just reinforced my biggest problem. The definition of "nice." $750k in Seattle, Portland and Boston would get you something actually NICE... I think they call it "luxury" here. What passes for "nice" in this city is amazing.
Posted by: tybur6 at August 18, 2008 4:15 PM
I don't agree about the location being "ok"
I think it's prime, incredibly close to transportation, the greenmarket and the Park.
I'm afraid to say that you are a bit out of touch, tyburg. Across the street, 2 bedrooms are going for 2 million at On Prospect Park. Down on Sterling and 7th, 1.5 million at the Vermeil.
And the market will let us know what this apartment is "worth."
Posted by: 11217 at August 18, 2008 4:18 PM
Tyburg:
I LOVE Seattle, Portland and Boston, but they aren't NYC.
I think that's where you've got things confused.
This is by some people's accounts (mine for one) one of the greatest cities in the world. You pay through the nose for that.
If you'd prefer more space for less money, there are other options which are less expensive.
One does not move to NYC for the cheap housing.
Posted by: 11217 at August 18, 2008 4:20 PM
Oopss...I take that back. Europeans DO move to NYC for the cheap housing, but Americans do not.
Posted by: 11217 at August 18, 2008 4:22 PM
This is my POINT, 11217. The market has gone retarded. I will concede that the location is prime-ish, but come one. You're going to tell me that building is "top of the line" and that apartment is in good shape?
Just because hundred of thousands of douche bags have decided that this apartment and thousands like it are worth $60,000 a year... that doesn't make it reasonable. It means, there are thousands of douche bags that have decided to inflate the real estate market to an absurd level.
Posted by: tybur6 at August 18, 2008 4:29 PM
I have to admit that I m also at a loss to explain why perfectly ordinary houses and apartments sell for king's ransoms in Brooklyn. Seems incredible, but it is the fact here. Being overly incredulous about it just makes one seem out of touch.
Posted by: sam at August 18, 2008 4:37 PM
Sam (4:37):
Historically, these prices are in line with precedent.
When buildings like 1 Plaza Street were built (similar in vintage to mine in Manhattan), a one or two bedroom apartment ran $300 to $500 per month, or between $3,600 and $6,000 per year.
When the average working person's salary was $1,200 per year!
Plus, the buildings were even harder to get into for lots of people: restrictions on race (whites only) and religion (e.g., no Jewish or Catholic families) were widespread. (Back then, Eastern Parkway and Prospect Park West were Jewish and Christian streets, respectively.)
New York has always been a tough town to live in. If anything, it's softening up somewhat (at least in terms of "restrictive" leasing and purchase polices -- check out the Times article on the Toren and its 50% Asian-American occupancy).
Posted by: NOP at August 18, 2008 4:50 PM
"New York has always been a tough town to live in"
I think that is true and probably explains why so many left in the 1960's, 70's, 80's, if not for new immigrants, the city would have been a ghost town then.
The racial and religious restricitions you mention were true in every American city, that was just a ubiquitious reality. Interestingly, when the United Nations first opened for business out in Queens, many of the employees from countries as diverse as Egypt and Nigeria could not find a place to live because most middle-class neighborhoods did not admit non white households. The UN had to build a complex called "Fresh Meadows" specfically for non-white UN personnel.
But what we are facing today is inflation across the board in rents and purchase prices. The only smart thing to do perhaps is what our parents and grandparents did: leave. Find a better life somewhere else. Ironically, if enough people leave, the prices will come way down.
Posted by: sam at August 18, 2008 5:15 PM
"Historically, these prices are in line with precedent.
When buildings like 1 Plaza Street were built..."
Of course, back when this building was built, this was new and probably considered luxurious. Now it's rather frumpy, outdated, and in need of "Cosmetic TLC Thru-Out."
Posted by: SnarkSlope at August 18, 2008 5:21 PM
Which is why we love these old buildings, SnarkSlope (5:21).
They fit like an old glove.
And check out the shot of the lobby. The heavy iron door. The crenelated ceiling. The bronze torcheres.
They don't make them like this anymore.
Posted by: NOP at August 18, 2008 5:29 PM
SnarkSlope makes an excellent point.
Old dumpy apartments were quite cheap way back when.
Posted by: sam at August 18, 2008 5:30 PM
Do some of you realize that you come across as being some of the most negative, cynical loons around?
Seriously.
If you have so much negativity bottled up that you need to trash talk every single thing that you come across on this blog, either you do a great job directing it here or you need to take a step back and try to find out what life is all about.
Posted by: 11217 at August 18, 2008 5:41 PM
The reason I bring that up is two-fold. #1, I've been thinking it and #2, I mentioned at dinner last night to a group of friends and reference "reading something on Brownstoner" and two people laughed and said..."How can you read that...everyone on there is so negative. I laughed and agreed." They also commented how the people who comment on blogs like this are stereotyped and becomes part of the reason why it's not "cool" to live in Brownstone Brooklyn.
I don't give a rats ass about being cool, but I did think it was interesting to hear other people say that they won't read this website anymore because of the horrible impressions that they get about the people who must live in these neighborhoods from looking over the comments.
I had to fess up that I comment on occasion as well, so I'm going to be more mindful of it also.
Posted by: 11217 at August 18, 2008 5:46 PM
I think I may agree with you, 11217.
For a blog called Brownstoner, a number of posters here don't seem to appreciate the archaic.
One of the small pleasures of living in my pre-war building has been waiting for the elevator in the lobby and admiring the way its builders made sure every piece of marble fits --right down to the pattern of veins.
I can't help but compare that to conditions where friends live, a brand-new condominium by a "starchitect" with a per-square foot price a multiple of my own. It's two years old and the plaster boards' seams are already starting to show!
How to handle the flaws of an old apartments walls? Do what my friends in a small palazzo in Rome do: hang a painting or a print!
The Italians have been doing it for centuries. And they know how to live!
Posted by: NOP at August 18, 2008 6:21 PM
Sometimes the comments here are negative. sometimes they are not. most of us are talking real estate and we have our strong opinions about it. Frankly the most insulting and snarky post on this thread is 11217's who seems to want to insult the rest of us by calling us idiots and loons. Now that's negative! Please stop it.
Posted by: sam at August 18, 2008 8:06 PM
I'm definitely a fan of pre-war apartments. As NOP pointed out: "The heavy iron door. The crenelated ceiling. The bronze torcheres."
Beautiful indeed. But none of those lovely touches are actually inside the apartment.
I may not live in the kitchen or bathroom, but I certainly spend more time there than I do in the lobby. And for nearly $800k I would hope for something that looked better than the kitchen and bathroom in the rent-stabilized apartment I lived in many years ago.
That said, this will probably go for pretty close to ask. Then the buyer can drop another $50k or so to update the kitchen and bath, and have a lovely home.
Posted by: SnarkSlope at August 18, 2008 11:25 PM
Snark Slope (11.25):
Here's what you do. Put a door back on the kitchen (which was there in the first place, as its photo shows) and go out to dinner in Park Slope 1,000 times for the 50K you'd spend on a reno.
Problem solved!
Posted by: NOP at August 19, 2008 12:28 AM
is this east or west of flatbush?
Posted by: A Guest at August 19, 2008 12:43 PM
If I dropped 800k on a place in the Slope I would hope it had a fantastic kitchen, as I will not be eating any of the mediocre 'cuisine' 5th and 7th avenues have to offer on a nightly basis.
Posted by: A Guest at August 19, 2008 12:48 PM
This is the west side of Flatbush and, yeah, it can get tiring eating at all of those favorably-reviewed restauruants on 5th and 7th Aves, or even just down Flatbush (like Franny's and Flatbush Farm). So please save your $800K to buy in sompleace with better restauruant choices -- and let us all know where (in NYC) you can get a 2Br apartment in a pre-war full service building with a gorgeous kitchen for $800K.
Posted by: babs at August 19, 2008 1:45 PM
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