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August 26, 2008

Can't Cut It In Brooklyn? Try Buffalo.

Want a three-bedroom apartment on the park with front and back porches, an office and stained glass windows for $795? Try Buffalo. New York Magazine has the tale of a Brooklyn couple who decided to forsake their $1,300-a-month Sunset Park pad for bigger and better digs on New York State's western frontier. Several ex-New Yorkers wax philosophical about their post-NYC lives, too. “I don’t miss my old life in New York," one says. "I only miss the life in New York I know I never would have had.”
Where the Urban Dream Life Is Going Cheap [NY Mag]
Buffalo Neighborhood. Photo by jeffk42.

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Comments

The median home price is $60,000, and David and Jamie are still renting. Strange.

Posted by: East New York at August 26, 2008 10:14 AM

If they don't think that property values in Buffalo are ever going to appreciate, then maybe they have better things to do with their money.

Posted by: tscola at August 26, 2008 10:19 AM

I have a lot of friends from Buffalo. They are all getting out. It's a dying city and anyone that grew up there has either left or is planning to. There are no jobs and it's getting worse. Rochester as well. I lived in the area for 5 years. You can buy houses in Buffalo for under 10k in rough neighborhoods FYI.

Posted by: Adam Dahill at August 26, 2008 10:20 AM

I can't believe they already have snow in Buffalo...it's not even Labor Day.

Posted by: likes2lurk at August 26, 2008 10:23 AM

The whole world doesn't want to BUY... in fact, this "we must buy" phenomenon is very new. The housing economy was always a few owners and the vast majority renters. But the inversion of this relationship is not a proper inversion... folks buy like they rent.

Buying with the intention of selling in 2 years. That's one of the many reasons housing prices have gone loony! And why we keep having various sorts of "bubbles" that are destroying our economy and society. Real estate is constantly in a "flip" mode now. There was a time when a 30-year mortgage was an actual long-term commitment and folks looking at less commitment rented. That seems reasonable.

Real estate was always a stable investment because folks that could *afford* the property bought it... and over the LONG RUN had a good quality return on their initial investment and the upgrades and maintenance they put into the property. The current "method" of paying $1.8 million and selling 3 years later for $2.5 million is nuts. It makes real estate into an extremely risky environment and puts way too many people in the position of being fiscally overextended (a lot of times because they don't have much choice...)

Posted by: tybur6 at August 26, 2008 10:25 AM

As a NY native whose family showed up in Ellis Island in 1910, I'd like to bring to your attention a slogan from the worst parts of the 1970s:

"New York City, if you don't like it, leave"

If you are interested in Brownstoners talk about cow towns like Buffalo as the 'next wave', just because of a little economic slowdown, please feel free to go. The real NYers have survived a lot worse, and we will still be here no matter what.

As for all you new transplants who think NYCers actually act like the cast of Friends and/or Sex in the City and who complain that you can't afford your $75 T-Shirts and $3000/mo rent, please understand that we really don't want you here. You are ruining everything that makes NYC great. Hope you enjoyed your vacation in NY, you tourists. Feel free to go as soon as possible. Bye!

Posted by: Knickerbocker at August 26, 2008 10:28 AM

Buffalo does seem too geographically challenged to ever have any sort of real resurgence. Just too damn cold.

Posted by: Paluka at August 26, 2008 10:32 AM

I suggest everyone check out the web site Buffalorising.com, which is the Brownstoner.com of Buffalo. The city is not dying, and there is lots of new development in the works. Plenty of festivals and great restaurants, and a huge artist community.

If the city were dying, why is the median price increasing in this disasterous real estate cycle? The median price is about $120,000. But if you exclude the east side, a giant hell hole (think the South Bronx of 1980 with houses instead of apartment buildings) where homes sell for $10,000 and less, the median would be a lot higher.

I love the quote - I missed the life in NYC I know I never would have had.

I know an artist in his late 40's who lives in a crappy 1-bedroom rental in Williamsburg with his wife and kid. If I were him, I would have moved to Buffalo (or Rochester, or Syracuse, or Albany, or Pittsburgh, or a dozen other places) a long time ago.

Posted by: Suburbandude at August 26, 2008 10:41 AM

Buffalo, too cold? compared to where? Montreal? Toronto? Minneapolis? Stockholm? St. Petersburg? Those places are cold, Buffalo is just snowy. It has a nice climate actually.
To Canadians, it is south of the border.

Posted by: sam at August 26, 2008 10:43 AM

Knickerbocker, my family came to NYC many decades before yours did and I find your comments parochial and foolish. The "transplants" are what make this city dynamic and a magnet for industry, culture and the arts. If all of these "transplants" stopped coming here, NYC would quickly decline in vibrancy and importance.

Posted by: 1842 at August 26, 2008 10:44 AM

"The housing economy was always a few owners and the vast majority renters."

This statement is false. The U.S. has always had a home ownership rate of about 50-60% or more. Now I think it stands at 66%.

In NYC it is lower (more like 40%), but the U.S. has always had more homeowners than renters.

Posted by: 11217 at August 26, 2008 10:44 AM

Well said "Knickerbocker"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Posted by: CHAOCguy at August 26, 2008 10:44 AM

Very well said 1842.

Most of the old timers I know in my neighborhood are old, racist, filled with hate and wouldn't know Bach from a Budweiser.

The new people are what keep this city alive.

Posted by: 11217 at August 26, 2008 10:48 AM

Buffalo's median home price is $60,000 according to the article, Suburban Dude.

Posted by: East New York at August 26, 2008 10:49 AM

Buffalo and Toronto have almost identical average monthly temperatures, but, Buffalo often feels much colder due to the lake effect snow and wind off Lake Erie, which is much worse than the effect of Lake Ontario on Toronto. Just sayin'. And I wouldn't live in a mansion for free in Buffalo. It's one of the most depressing places in North America.

Posted by: Biff Champion at August 26, 2008 10:56 AM

Hey 11217, here's the U.S. Census Bureau.

http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/housing/census/historic/owner.html

Few vs. vast majority may have been slight hyperbole, but it's not patently false as you say.

Posted by: tybur6 at August 26, 2008 10:59 AM

I agree with you, Biff.

Having visited every state in the lower 48 and many, many cities I can say with relative certainty that I find Buffalo one of the most depressing.

Posted by: 11217 at August 26, 2008 11:00 AM

Just tried to go on buffalorising. The server is crashed. Guess there is some interest.

I grew up in the Bronx and Westchester and went to school in upper NY State (I was near Rochester and had friends near Buffalo and Syracuse). I had a good time up there in the hinterlands, and really can understand the attraction of moving to a place that is on the upswing, where you could maybe be part of a renaissance. The NY I came home to after college is vastly different from the NY I'm living in now, for better and for worse, and I admit that my husband and I are struggling and trying to figure out what's best for us and our 3-year-old. We rent, we missed the run up because we weren't in a position to buy when the getting was good, now we're completely priced out, even rents are prohibitively high (if we ever want to do anything like take a vacation or enjoy the city) and we're...flummoxed, I guess. I read this article last night and I have to say, it really got me where I live. We're smarter now, more practical, and right in the middle (that middle class that is shrinking). Too rich for help, too poor to really live here in the city anymore.

So I don't know. Maybe not Buffalo. But somewhere.

To the poster who has friends who are leaving Buffalo -- where are they going?

Posted by: I_haz_TWO_toilets at August 26, 2008 11:05 AM

Actually... I take back my qualification. I'd have to say 33% in 1900 would constitute few owners vs. vast majority renters. And New York not crossing the 50% mark until the 1980s would suggest "recent phenomenon" to me. And NATION-WIDE it wasn't until the mid-40s sometime. Also... pretty recent if you ask me. (We've been around as a country since the late 1700s if you remember and for a few more years as Brits and Dutch and French before that... I don't think the native Americans had a real estate market back then.)

Posted by: tybur6 at August 26, 2008 11:06 AM

11217, I think part of what is so sad about it is that it used to be such a thriving place. It might not quite be as bad as downtown Detroit, which I haven't been to in some time now, but it is absolutely remarkable to see the contrast when driving through all of the potholes and decrepit buildings to the border and then eventually into downtown Toronto, which looks like the Emerald City by comparison.

Posted by: Biff Champion at August 26, 2008 11:07 AM

Be careful tybur6. The Asshats will say you are part of The What dust-up.

Knickerbocker well said. Buffalo have nice houses. The only problem is income. America is becoming a one trick bitch. Just "flipping" thinks to each other.

Notice the Pretenous Smugfuck Asshats Biff, 11217 and 1842. Buffalo is a beautiful city and is close to Detroit, Cleveland, Toronto and Montreal. The housing stock there is fantastic! Most of the "New" New Yorkers came from these places!

Most of you fucking dudes are POSERS and I will be glad when you leave..

Merrill, Wachovia Hit With Record Refinancing Bill

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20602007&sid=a7snTaUmiwnw&refer=govt_bonds

``The gears of capitalism are grinding to a halt,'' said Mirko Mikelic, senior bond fund manager at Grand Rapids, Michigan-based Fifth Third Asset Management, which oversees $21 billion in assets. ``There is a tremendous concern over the banking sector and a scramble right now for capital.''

Don't bother to read this....

The What

Someday this war is gonna end...

Posted by: what at August 26, 2008 11:09 AM

I actually found the Oswego area to be truly a soul-sucker, 11217. But I liked Rochester a lot, and Syracuse, and found Buffalo had a certain, not charm exactly, but interesting character.

When I was in college in Oswego there were actually "wind alert" days, where you were advised to stay in if you weighed under 110 pounds. The fear was that the wind off the lake would do you some serious harm. Nice sunsets. Terrible mosquitoes.

Posted by: I_haz_TWO_toilets at August 26, 2008 11:09 AM

It's a bazillion miles from NYC. There are no jobs. It is cold and they get A TON of snow - doesn't anyone remember the photos of the dumps they got last winter? I know 6 people that lived there - they left. Can you get 50 kinds of blue cheese there? Can you get really good Indian food there? You have to own a car. It's too far from NYC. Who knows what the medical care situation might be, and and and I don't care what anyone says it's still not, ain't never gonna be, as cool or as interesting as BROOKLYN!

That said...I like the red house.

Posted by: cobblehiller at August 26, 2008 11:10 AM

"To the poster who has friends who are leaving Buffalo -- where are they going?"

They move to Asshat Hill and pay 1700.00 a month for a studio on Jefferson and Patchen. They they moan and bitch because there are no amenities in the neighborhood!

The What

Someday this war is gonna end...

Posted by: what at August 26, 2008 11:12 AM

"Notice the Pretenous Smugfuck Asshats Biff, 11217 and 1842. Buffalo is a beautiful city and is close to Detroit, Cleveland, Toronto and Montreal."

DOWhat, we didn't forget that it was you who took great pleasure in posting the link to a montage showing how horrifically beaten down Detroit has become. You've set a new standard in hypocrisy.

By the way, how many days until doomsday? Do you remember or do you want me to remind you? Just a bit scared are you to answer this question?

Posted by: Biff Champion at August 26, 2008 11:17 AM

i'm 44, grew up in bensonhurst and lived in buffalo for 4 years while attending ub in the 80s. the winters are not for the meek. they are long and depressing.

Posted by: 11214 at August 26, 2008 11:18 AM

Hey now! The What answered me! I feel kind of special.

I hear you cobblehiller, and no one (certainly not me) is arguing that Buffalo has the cheese, Indian food, medical care, etc that Brooklyn, and the larger NYC area, does. But here's the thing. I can't really afford to eat out, or to buy the 40 kinds of fancy cheese, and honestly, sometimes it's a struggle to pay the co-pays for the medical care my insurance covers. And I think that's sort of what we're talking about here -- alternatives.

And I like the red house too.

Posted by: I_haz_TWO_toilets at August 26, 2008 11:18 AM

Is Asshat Hill adjacent to Lodi, DOWhat? 51 Days DOWhat...

Posted by: Biff Champion at August 26, 2008 11:19 AM

They are long 11214, but if you like outdoor winter sports (and own the appropriate outerwear) not so terribly depressing. At least, I found it to be OK.

Posted by: I_haz_TWO_toilets at August 26, 2008 11:20 AM

The median price in Buffalo is $108,200 (my $120,000 was off a bit). NY Mag's $60,000 was way off. Don't believe everything you read in that rag.

http://www.bizjournals.com/buffalo/stories/2008/08/11/daily56.html?jst=b_ln_hl

There are several neighborhoods in Buffalo that are very similar to Prospect Park South and Ditmas Park. But instead of paying $1,250,000, you pay $250,000. Yes, that is $1,000,000 less. Two teachers in Buffalo can own a fabulous house.

Cobblehiller - you can get Indian food there, you do not have to own a car, and the medical care is fine. Maybe only ten kinds of blue cheese.

Again, Buffalorising.com is a very interesting site.

Posted by: Suburbandude at August 26, 2008 11:22 AM

I don't really get why people get so borderline jingoistic about their preferred city. Everyone has different priorities, why piss all over people who find a little joy in Buffalo? Sheesh.

Posted by: mothra at August 26, 2008 11:23 AM

people move away from nyc all the time, why this article about buffalo of all places? people move to florida, texas, virginia. this is just an ad for buffalo.

that said, i'd like to hear stories about people who move away from here to places they didn't grow up and don't already know people. because for me, i grew up in westchester and live in brooklyn, but i think about moving to another state all the time (not buffalo), but what would i have there? not family. not highschool friends. and apparently not my boyfriend, since he refuses to move away.

Posted by: al oof at August 26, 2008 11:23 AM

I think alternatives for those who have lived in NYC have become accustomed to certain finer things in life would be more apt to look at places like Portland, Maine or Oregon, Austin, Texas, Providence, Rhode Island, Savannah, Georgia or Santa Cruz.

A couple people moving to Buffalo does not an article make.

I am a firm believer in "you get what you pay for" and the high cost of living here is worth it to me. I would not sacrifice more space or cheaper this or that to be isolated up in the middle of nowhere NY.

We have one life. Enjoy it while you can is my philosophy. NYC is a great place to enjoy a lot of the great things life offers.

If you'd prefer 4 bedrooms and 2 1/2 baths and a Chiles, then there are other places more suitable for what you want out of life.

Posted by: 11217 at August 26, 2008 11:23 AM

"Who knows what the medical care situation might be" Is Buffalo the third world now? Does the U.N. drop medications and vaccines from planes there?

The issue of "good food" (whether blue cheese, indian, pizza or otherwise) is a very interesting thing. In smaller cities, the food has to be at least decent to get enough business to survive. Yes, there are probably fewer, in absolute terms, really really good or great restaurants or specialty markets etc.... but there are also far fewer, in both absolute and relative terms, plain terrible places.

New York City, including all of its boroughs, has so many people that even the most mediocre survives... simply because it convenient and actually either hard or too time consuming to go elsewhere.

Think of pizza shops... there are SOOOO MANY truly terrible pizza shops in this city, compared to the maybe dozens of really good ones... and the thousands of bodegas and nasty little "supermarkets" that sell absolute crap quality everything except for beer and cigarettes compared to the dozens of decent grocers and so on.

A smaller city, like Buffalo, is not homogenized like a pathetic bedroom community on Long Island where your choices are Stop&Shop and Applebees. It's just smaller. So, yeah... no market for 50 kinds of blue cheese. Most (I said most) blue cheeses are terrible anyway, give me a good handcrafted cheddar or gouda any day! :-)

Posted by: tybur6 at August 26, 2008 11:25 AM

Hey Suburbandude -- are you affiliated in some way? Not accusing, just really curious to hear more.

Posted by: I_haz_TWO_toilets at August 26, 2008 11:26 AM

Having said that, I know TONS of people who have moved away...to Austin, San Francisco, Los Angeles, Seattle, Atlanta, Washington, DC.

I'd say 75% of those returned to NYC. Maybe a little more.

There is something about the energy here that is very, very difficult to find in other cities. It's what makes it special.

Posted by: 11217 at August 26, 2008 11:27 AM

"The "transplants" are what make this city dynamic and a magnet for industry, culture and the arts. If all of these "transplants" stopped coming here, NYC would quickly decline in vibrancy and importance."

OOOOOHHHHHHH SSHHHHIITTTTTTTT Really?! You mead these transplants? The same Douchebag mother fuckers who jacked up prices around this city??!!! They get drunk and throw up all over the place! These "transplants" huh??!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F53KLyKVVwQ&eurl=http://www.diehipster.com/

Pandamonium Williamsburg Riot Police Brutality

Hoo boy! I wish the police would've beaten the fuck out of these Asshats!!!

The What

Someday this war is gonna end..

Posted by: what at August 26, 2008 11:28 AM

"Having said that, I know TONS of people who have moved away...to Austin, San Francisco, Los Angeles, Seattle, Atlanta, Washington, DC.

I'd say 75% of those returned to NYC. Maybe a little more."

You only know 4 people you motherfucking mutant!!!

The What

Someday this war is gonna end....

Posted by: what at August 26, 2008 11:30 AM

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

DOWhat needs a brain "transplant".

Posted by: Biff Champion at August 26, 2008 11:30 AM

Somebody mentioned Portland, Maine. That's Buffalo, with seagulls.

Posted by: likes2lurk at August 26, 2008 11:32 AM

These sentences do not make me think Buffalo is rising:

"The loss of traditional jobs in manufacturing, rapid suburbanization and high costs of labor have led to economic decline, making Buffalo one of the poorest amongst U.S. cities with populations of more than 250,000 people.An estimated 30% of Buffalo residents live below the poverty line, second only to Detroit."

"The loss (of people)in industries is in line with other Rust Belt cities such as Cleveland, Detroit, Pittsburgh, and Youngstown that have had to adjust to changing economic conditions. While some cities such as Pittsburgh have made adjustments with mixed results, Buffalo is more in line with Cleveland and is faced with continual economic problems and declining populations."

"Buffalo's median household income of $27,850 is third-lowest among large cities"

"Buffalo faces issues with vacant and abandoned houses, as the city ranks second only to St. Louis on the list of American cities with the most vacant properties per capita"

Posted by: 11217 at August 26, 2008 11:33 AM

Another bonus - Buffalo is 90 miles from Toronto. Toronto ain't NYC, but it's more like NYC than most American cities.

Posted by: Suburbandude at August 26, 2008 11:35 AM

What makes up quality of life? It's not the same for everyone. For some the charms of a place like Buffalo (hard to discern when passing through, easier to appreciate when you get to know the place), outweigh the shortcomings. It you want major metropolitan vibrancy or a truly international city, it's not the place. But, you can find vibrant neighborhoods, compelling arts, world class architecture, beautiful natural resources, friendly people, room to breathe, easy commutes, and a super reasonable cost of living, among other things. It snows a lot, but unlike here, a few inches (or for that matter a few feet) don't cause chaos. As for people leaving, very true, like many who grew up there I left for bigger and better things, but you'd be surprised at how many who come for the local schools end up staying. Lot's of former NYers among them. And btw, don't kid yourselves, lots' of born and bred NYer's leave NYC for a better quality of life elsewhere every year.

Posted by: LilBitOfLuck at August 26, 2008 11:37 AM

a good thing i'll say about buffalo, it has wegmans!

Posted by: 11214 at August 26, 2008 11:39 AM

To: I_haz_TWO_toilets at 11:26AM -

I have no affiliation with that web site. I found it by accident, just like I found Brownstoner by accident. I live in Westchester, but I enjoy reading about other places (to the best of my knowledge, Rochester, Syracuse and Albany do not have equivalent web sites).

How do I summarize my feelings? If I had two kids and were making 250K+, I could live in Brooklyn. If I were making 60K, I would live in Buffalo (or an equivalent city with a low cost of living).

Posted by: Suburbandude at August 26, 2008 11:42 AM

How can we convince DOWhat to move to shuffle off to Buffalo?

Posted by: wasder at August 26, 2008 11:43 AM

Any city that would host a Rick James Memorial concert can't be all bad.

Posted by: East New York at August 26, 2008 11:50 AM

how do people get all these 'freelance proofreader' jobs? maybe that's the reason they can't afford NYC?

Posted by: Jimmy Legs at August 26, 2008 11:51 AM

While I'm not pining for Buffalo, it was nice to read an upbeat article about the city for once. (I'm a native Rochesterian, we're bred to look down on 315ers)
I moved downstate for college/job a dozen years ago. After so long grinding away here, the shine is honestly beginning to wear off of NYC.
I can heartliy relate to I haz TWO toilets' point of view. (although I only have one, hah) The husband and I are solidly middle class. We will never be able to buy in Brooklyn with the current rate of real estate appreciation unless some sort of doomsday scenario happens a la theWhat.
Every year, especially after the birth of our son, the prospects in Rochacha look more and more appealing, to the horror of most our (unmarried, without kids) friends.
I'm giving us 5 years. If we can't buy a condo in a decent school district before then, we may be headed out. I don't think the city will miss us, not nearly as much as we will miss it.

Posted by: ennuiater at August 26, 2008 11:54 AM

Not so long ago, all the bad things being said about Buffalo were being said about Brooklyn.

Posted by: sam at August 26, 2008 12:06 PM

Some of you are very odd...

Unless someone is commuting from Buffalo to Manhattan, I'm not sure what the point of a Buffalo v. Brooklyn comparison is. Might as well compare Weehawken and Tonawanda while you are at it.

As for the home ownership issue, I think NYC rates are around 35%, and as far as I'm concerned NYC offers a boatload of negatives for the home owner v. most of the rest of the country (mostly having to do with the problems of multifamily v. single family residence).

I've rented in and around the city for 15 years (mostly rent stabilized, which is nice if you can get it, but I got tired of living in a dive), and I'm looking to buy something in the next few years, but whether it is brooklyn, queens, long island, or jersey remains to be seen.

It definitely won't be Buffalo though. I couldn't take the commute or the winters.

Posted by: northsloperenter at August 26, 2008 12:10 PM

Thanks Suburbandude. My hub & I make a little over $100k and we have one kid, and we're finding it really tough, so I appreciate the insight. I'll keep trying to get on buffalorising, just to check it out. I lived in Yorktown Heights during High School and my folks are in Hartsdale now, so Westchester is also a place we've considered, although I think a smaller city, rather than a suburb, is where we're headed (and the suburbs of NYC are expensive).

Hi ennulater. I rent those two toilets. ;) Keep on keeping on, sister.

A good point Sam. I was thinking the same thing myself. The difference, of course, is that the commute to Manhattan is significantly shorter from Brooklyn than from Buffalo (although some days on the F train, it doesn't seem so).

Posted by: I_haz_TWO_toilets at August 26, 2008 12:19 PM

two toilets - any reason why you have to stay northeast? i agree with the other comments. there are way easier-living cities with a good creative class in the southwest and northwest. austin, tx is great. houston is good and improving. portland is similar. it really just depends on your goals, but you can easily make $60K and have a way better quality of life elsewhere. if you are trying to make it as an artist, dancer, actor, journalist or hedge fund manager, then stay in nyc.

Posted by: jingle mail at August 26, 2008 12:44 PM

You know what kills me. I think the average American has lost their minds. We have a Mutant Asset Bubble that is imploding around our ears. We have a budget deficit of almost a trillion dollars. We have a insolvent Banking System. We have FALLING Real Estate prices. We have a negative saving rate. We need about 4 trillion dollars to bail us out of this mess. We have a fucked up foreign policy. We have wasted billions of dollars looking for "weapons of mass destruction". A failed energy policy! Raging fucking Inflation. Hard core ass-raping of our middle-class. And all of the smugfucks can do is debate a dustup between Brooklyn and Buffalo??!!!

You are fucking retards and I hope to GOD we have a DEEP Depression!!! No bullshit because people need to have their asses kick to restore some balance to this world!

The What (FUCK ALL OF YOU)

Someday this war is gonna end...

Posted by: what at August 26, 2008 12:53 PM

tWhat - we're not confusing tybur6 with your sock puppets because tybur6 writes grammatical English instead of your staccatto confused crap.

Posted by: dittoburg at August 26, 2008 12:54 PM

"You know what kills me." Obviously not or you would have been gone months ago.

Posted by: Biff Champion at August 26, 2008 12:58 PM

Oh by the way. You Asshats better pray for Obama! You better pray that he stays in good health! If ANYTHING happens to him, you kiss your "investment" GOOD FUCKING BYE. There will be murking season in the hood!

The What (I'm glad I'm not you)

Someday this war is gonna end...

Posted by: what at August 26, 2008 1:00 PM

"But here's the thing. I can't really afford to eat out, or to buy the 40 kinds of fancy cheese, and honestly, sometimes it's a struggle to pay the co-pays for the medical care my insurance covers. And I think that's sort of what we're talking about here -- alternatives."

Uhm, I got that part. I haz one toilet, I rent it, and I cook at home for me and my better half. I carry my coffee to work in a thermo cup. My co-pay for my sinus med was $60 a month last time I picked it up, so now I take half a pill instead of a whole. I get it. But once in awhile when I have company I like to get a nice piece of cheese for them, and sometimes I like to eat food that doesn't come from ConAgra stocked supermarkets. And I like to eat out on special occasions at something other than bar/diner or chains. And I like to walk or take the subway to/from there.

Alternatives are good. Newburgh, The Oranges, places my friends have gone. Basically anything in a 2-3 hour radius of NY is alternative. How is Buffalo alternative to Brooklyn? Where would you work? Where is the culture? I left NYC after growing up here. I came back. No need to try to 'recruit' me. I appreciate the other views. I just disagree.

Posted by: cobblehiller at August 26, 2008 1:00 PM

All you pro-Buffalonians would have to find a job if you moved there, right? There are limited jobs up there even though the housing stock is abundant. Therein is one problem. Artists obviously would not have this worry since they can create pretty much anywhere, right? And they really only have 2 seasons: Winter and Summer. There is no Fall or Summer to speak of. If you don't mind being a shut-in for about 3-4 months of the year, or getting stranded for 8 hours in a freak snowstorm that the forecasters failed to see (dumping 24" of snow in 3 hours), then Buffalo's your kind of town. Plus, if you're single, the people are not all that attractive.

Posted by: tiptoe at August 26, 2008 1:03 PM

For some, it's not a matter of Brooklyn vs. Buffalo (or any other place for that matter). It's about making the best choice for your family based upon finances/needs.

I am solidly middle class as well and have to stay connected to the city for my job. I rented in Brooklyn for most of my adult life because of my passion for historical brown/limestone & brick townhouses besides, it IS Brooklyn for god sakes (love it!).

However, my husband and I knew we'd never be able to buy a historical home there without becoming completely "house-poor" and condos were out of the question. We made what was, at the time, a gut-wrenching decision to buy in Jersey City. We're very happy we did. We got the historical townhouse we always dreamed of, are a 13 minute train ride to NYC and best of all we can afford it!

We go back to Brooklyn all the time after work and on weekends to meet up with our friends and hit our once local haunts. We still have a strong connection to it. I'm sure many people who leave feel the same way. I don't think I could ever detach from it completely.

Posted by: TownhouseLady at August 26, 2008 1:03 PM

DOWhat, as an Obama supporter, I implore you to please refrain from giving him your endorsement. No good can come from it.

Posted by: Biff Champion at August 26, 2008 1:04 PM

You know what kills me DOW-twat? You think that after you come on here and threaten and abuse everyone that they are going to read anything you write with anything resembling thoughtfulness. We all know the economy is in the tank and the banking system is struggling. It doesn't take an effing genius to figure out. It does however take some kind of genius to figure out why you think its a good idea to come to this board with your hate-agenda and your shitty writing and tell us what we already know.

Posted by: wasder at August 26, 2008 1:04 PM

I'm FROM Buffalo, and I was just there for a visit last weekend. I actually met with Newell, who showed me some amazing instances of civic action and enthusiasm and preservation. Indeed, there are some lovely downtown neighborhoods and houses -- many remind me of the interesting mansions of Clinton Hill.

However, the article didn't mention the disastrous East Side at all. Urban prairie, condemned homes, high crime. It's like two different worlds between Elmwood Village and the East Side.

Plus, the 'burbs are sprawling.

For a different look at Buffalo, I suggest www.fixbuffalo.blogspot.com.

Posted by: lesterhead at August 26, 2008 1:15 PM

hate-agenda? hate-agenda? this fucking blog is a hate-agenda, assfuck!!!!

The forerunner of covert race/class warfare, BROWNSTONER!

Lets look at some examples, shall we.

This blog is "suppose to be about Brownstones but we get shit like:

Homeless Black woman (wink wink) shitting on a stoop.

Marauding teenagers (young black animals win wink)

Long time residents selling drugs (in front of their houses wink wink)

Posting false accusations about Police being paid-off (wink wink)

Smugfuck feasts about how Asshat hill is better that everyone else

Regutation of bullshit assed race cover stores (Homeless Shelter)

And other bullfuckingshit that I forgot.

The pot calling the kettle black? See asshole I'm not afraid to type this.

The What (Still fuck all of you)

Someday this war is gonna end...

Posted by: what at August 26, 2008 1:17 PM

Hey cobblehiller, I wasn't trying to recruit you or anything. I'm just trying to figure out what the heck to do. For myself. Not for you. As a fellow member of the thermo cup-toting class I say: Eat your occasional cheese and be happy!

Jingle mail -- My parents and my husband's parents are both here in the Northeast (my folks in Hartsdale and his in CT). Neither one of us is an artist, dancer, actor, journalist or hedge fund manager. We've only just recently have decided that we need to "do something," so we're very much at the start of figuring out what the something might be. I've been to Portland (Oregon) and love it, but I gather it too is getting pricey. Onwards. Thanks for the feedback.

Posted by: I_haz_TWO_toilets at August 26, 2008 1:17 PM

the tWhats getting apoplectic. His nonsense is even more imcomprensible than ever: "The pot calling the kettle black? See asshole I'm not afraid to type this."

Not afraid to type it? What the hell does that mean?
Is that why his spelling, grammar and general life knowledge is so diabolically poor - because he's afraid of the keyboard?

Or could he be so monumentally stupid and race-monomaniacal that he thinks that the saying actually has something to do with race?

Posted by: dittoburg at August 26, 2008 1:28 PM

As for the "no jobs" angle... I have a friend who is a department manager for a major bank in Manhattan. Most of his department recently got outsourced - wait for it - to BUFFALO!

I suspect we will see more and more outsourcing of jobs away from NYC, particularly in the financial services sector, in the coming years.

Posted by: SnarkSlope at August 26, 2008 1:29 PM

I don't know about Buffalo, but I love Rochester. We're flying up there this weekend. I would seriously consider moving there eventually. I never thought I liked small cities, and usually I don't. I always thought it would either be a huge city or the middle of nowhere in the country for me, but Rochester is really accessible, has a thriving arts community and a number of schools, and is beautiful. Oh and the garbage plate.

Posted by: KHuebbe at August 26, 2008 1:31 PM

As a former Buffalonian, who sometimes considers moving back, I must come to the area's defense. Buffalo has the University of Buffalo and several other colleges, so there is an intellectual life. Also a top cancer research hospital (Roswell Park) and plenty of other good hospitals, quality museums, a thriving performing arts scene (including nationally acclaimed Studio Arena Theater). It has NY-quality restaurants, especially near UB and Amherst (where I'm from) and gourmet food shops that I am pretty sure have 50 types of cheese, or close to. The winters are long, granted, and there's tons of snow, but I never minded as log as I could do a winter sport. Good skiing at Holiday Valley, cross country and ice skating also available. Lake Erie is a great resource, the surrounding countryside is lovely and there is lots of great architecture and beautiful, affordable houses in areas like Delaware Park. That said, good jobs are few and far between, parts of the city look like a bomb hit it, and migration is mostly out, not in. Still, many, many Buffalonians really, really love Buffalo, so there is a loyal core. I could definitely see living there, sure it's not Brooklyn, but it is also not nothing.

One more thing--Buffalo has beef on weck sandwiches, which really are worth moving back for.

Posted by: westernnygirl at August 26, 2008 1:40 PM

DOW-Twat--you are the only one here with a hate agenda. A real estate blog, while admittedly not the most intellectually or socially redeeming location on the internet, is not founded on a hate agenda. A renovation agenda maybe, a market value discussion agenda perhaps, but hate agenda? Nope. People who want to live in Brooklyn come to this site to try to discuss the ins and outs of the insanity that is the NYC real estate market. You, and your various sock-puppets, come here to sow discontent, fear and paranoia.

The pot and the kettle have a combined IQ and sensitivity double yours.

Posted by: wasder at August 26, 2008 1:40 PM

What...

If all the posters here are asshats why do you care so much what they think, say or do?

You spend a lot of time and effort on these people that you clearly seems to think aren't worth it.

Now matter if I agree or disagree with you I just think you're not doing your health any favors by getting this worked up.

Turn off the computer, take a walk and try to stop and smell the daisies!

I'm totally not trying to be sarcastic either, I'm concerned that you're hurting yourself more than you're hurting them.

Best,

THL

Posted by: TownhouseLady at August 26, 2008 1:40 PM

Well, What, as usual you have some points to make. Interesting list you pulled out there.

The apoplectic part is just hilarious! Cracks me up - sorry!

Hey, where's Ozymandius today?!

Posted by: cobblehiller at August 26, 2008 1:41 PM

SnarkSlope, I believe I know the firm to which you refer and I don't dispute increased outsourcing like this is a possibility in the years ahead. But an interesting fact is that many of those who took up the offer to relocate to Buffalo ended up returning to the NY area shortly thereafter. Just sayin'.

ditto, why even bother to try to understand the incomprehensible?

Posted by: Biff Champion at August 26, 2008 1:41 PM

"You spend a lot of time and effort on these people that you clearly seems to think aren't worth it."

Psst, TownhouseLady - over here: I think What secretly LOVES us. Yep, he does. That's why he hangs with us so much. He's worried about our future, he wants us to be safe so he's warning us off - like Lassie warning Timmy away from the Mine Shaft. It's touching, no?

Posted by: cobblehiller at August 26, 2008 1:45 PM

"People who want to live in Brooklyn come to this site to try to discuss the ins and outs of the insanity that is the NYC real estate market. You, and your various sock-puppets, come here to sow discontent, fear and paranoia."

Nope homeboy. you see wasder I'm in your head. You know deep down that I'm correct about the upcoming crash. I just want you fuckers to go back to flyover land and give the real New Yorkers their city back! Bunch of fucking city hijacking motherfuckers!

TownhouseLady the war is not over but, someday this war is gonna end...

The What

Someday this war is gonna end...

Posted by: what at August 26, 2008 1:47 PM

Biff - I hear ya. In that situation I imagine I would be one of those returning to NYC. Actually, I wouldn't have moved to Buffalo in the first place, but that's just my own preference.

The real point is, though some of these workers may have moved back to the the city, their jobs did not. Perhaps those jobs will return in a few years, when what I suspect will often prove to be a false economic benefit, is revealed as such.

Posted by: SnarkSlope at August 26, 2008 1:53 PM

Back again, had to squeeze in some work today.

My friends that have left Buffalo have either moved to NYC, Charlotte, Willmington, LA, or Colorado. Actaully alot moved to Colorado and N. Carolina.

The problem with Buffalo and Rochester is that there are NO JOBS. Buffalo was an industrial city and we all know what has happended to industrial jobs in this country. Marine Midland was alos a big employer but HDBC gobbled them up years ago and phased out a ton of white collars jobs as well. The winters are cold and the sun doesnt come out for months which is terribly depressing. Rochester has the same problem with industry and it's 2 biggest employers made bad decisions which has left them behind XEROX and KODAK. Both were based out of Rochester and both are past their peek.

Young people do not want to be there so they end of leaving, most do not return. They are dying cities held together by large universities and the remnents of large corporations.

I love both areas, my fiance's family stills lives in the area and I find myself in Western NY 4-5 times a year but it's depressing.

Also- You definetly need a car to live there. I don't what you are smoking if you tell me that you can get around without one. Try waiting 30 mins for a bus in a snowstorm in minus zero degree weather.

Posted by: Adam Dahill at August 26, 2008 1:53 PM

"Hey, where's Ozymandius today?!"

Sorry cobblehiller. You know people with Narcissistic Personality Disorder will only use one name. It's like a bomber, he will always take responsibility for the act! I'm like the hood version of Hamas. Plus forget about the lassie thing but, it was funny.

I'm am The What Assholes!

The What

Someday this war is gonna end...

Posted by: what at August 26, 2008 1:54 PM

cobblehiller, that was priceless. But I think Lassie just rolled over in her doghouse in the sky after learing of being compared to DOWhat.

westernnygirl, despite what one might think given my comments about Buffalo above, I've probably spent more time there than almost anyone on this thread and agree that Buffalo has many redeeming qualities, perhaps most notably its incredibly friendly and proud citizens. And contrary to one of the posts above, I've seen more than my share of cutey patooties on Chippewa Street on a Saturday night. As for the beef on weck, make mine a Schwebel's potato roll. I also would recommend Duff's Wings over the Anchor Bar and one of the best steaks I've ever had was at EB Green's at the Hyatt Hotel downtown.

Posted by: Biff Champion at August 26, 2008 1:54 PM

Just saw all the spelling errors. Sorry was typing fast.

"Marine Midland was also a big employer but HSBC" is what I meant to type.

Posted by: Adam Dahill at August 26, 2008 1:56 PM

"I just want you fuckers to go back to flyover land and give the real New Yorkers their city back!"

Sorry DOWhat, we've got your city now forever. But you can keep Lodi.

Posted by: Biff Champion at August 26, 2008 1:59 PM

DOW-Twat--you are in my head in the same way that a booger or some ear-wax sometimes occupies various cavities in my head. You are waste material. Comical waste material perhaps, pathetic waste material for sure, lame juvenile waste material without question.

There is nothing else for you to say here. We get it--the economy sucks, the banking industry is on life support. Thanks for letting us know. If you actually cared about this you would figure out how to communicate your concerns in a way that other people could discuss and engage with. As it is your opinions are not worth any more than the snot I just blew out of my nose.

Posted by: wasder at August 26, 2008 2:02 PM

I had food poisoning after Duffs' Wings. There is some great industrial and early 20th century architecture in Buffalo. I like the old grain elevator down on the lake shore. And the huge disused railway terminus. (Buffalo central terminus?).

"I'm am The What Assholes!"
Does this mean his new name is "Am the what assholes"?

Posted by: dittoburg at August 26, 2008 2:06 PM

ditto, sorry to hear that. Are you sure it had nothing to do with you downing a couple of buckets of Gennessee Cream Ale with your wings? I never had a bad experience at Duff's. ("am The What Assholes!" is great, but I can't keep up with all his personalities).

"I'm like the hood version of Hamas"

I'm sure members of Hamas are on GazaStripstoner.com interrupting real estate conversations with tales of economic doom and gloom.

Posted by: Biff Champion at August 26, 2008 2:17 PM

I hope bStoner bans Mr. What. Not cause of what he says, but how he says it. He's disrespectful and should go.

Posted by: moreteasir at August 26, 2008 2:23 PM

more tea sir - The DOWhat unwittingly contributes to the success of the site as people feel compelled to respond to his effluvia. His ego won't let him stay away.

Posted by: dittoburg at August 26, 2008 2:29 PM

Hey Mr./Ms. What, you forgot to list the time Mr. Brownstoner accused the Mirrors Bar of harboring drug activity, and said the local police precinct "needs to check that place out."

Posted by: East New York at August 26, 2008 2:41 PM

People bashing Buffalo for it's food have never had the delight that is a Zweigle's white hot or a Rubino's sub. If I could get a sandwich half as good here in Brooklyn, my life would be complete, I just know it.
I would also be 20 lbs heavier, so perhaps missing the Italian Select isn't such a bad thing.

Posted by: ennuiater at August 26, 2008 2:43 PM

NYC still has reasonably-priced areas. I feel like so often people go from one extreme to another. Why is it people can only live in Park Slope or Buffalo? Why don't more people look into Bay Ridge, Staten Island, Queens, etc.?

You can buy a humongous 6 bedroom Victorian with a big yard in Staten Island for $600k and you are paying very low property taxes relative to the rest of the tri-state area suburbs (and still using your $2 metrocard fare). It boggles my mind that people are unable to find the "in-between" areas like one below. There are tons of 3 and 4 bedroom houses in the $300k range in SI, and many 2-3 bedroom apts in Brooklyn under $400k.

600k on SI - http://newyork.craigslist.org/stn/reb/814026007.html

Posted by: setancre at August 26, 2008 2:58 PM

setancre - you've been trying to sell that place for two-months now.

Posted by: dittoburg at August 26, 2008 3:01 PM

More like Bust a flow.

I love upstate new york. With the exception of Albany, I would not want to live in a major city there. I would rather live out in the country, perhaps around the Finger Lakes, a remote area in the Catskills, or the Adirondacks.

I'm just guy who grew up in Brooklyn and Long Island and I know that Upstate is great. However its small cities will suck the life out of you. I spent five years going to school in the foothills of the Adirondacks. It was amazing and if I had the chance to go back and live, I would. But I'm talking about Buffalo. Upstate's small cities leave much to be desired.

Have any of you yuppies been to Utica? I'm sure it would give you nightmares. The one about Utica is that it does exceptional Italian food. It's the Bensonhurst of Upstate.

Posted by: Agnostic Fart at August 26, 2008 3:06 PM

Cool! Love the stats. I am going to move to Buffalo and be the richest person in town! yeehaw! Me tatonka.
Oh, do you think they have a Choice market there? I might miss that turkey burger with chipotle mayo.

Posted by: offthegrid at August 26, 2008 3:07 PM

the bar bill tavern in east aurora is the place for wings & beef on weck in the buffalo area.

Posted by: 11214 at August 26, 2008 3:11 PM

what is beef on weck?

Posted by: TownhouseLady at August 26, 2008 3:19 PM

Lived in Binghamton after college and I love upstate NY also. Still plan on going back, but more like the Norwich area. It's not for everyone but as a native New Yorker, as much as I love it here, it's gotten too expensive and too difficult. I've only passed through Buffalo, so I don't know much about it but Jamestown is beautiful, has a big arts community and another place I'd consider.

Posted by: bxgrl at August 26, 2008 3:20 PM

"Hey Mr./Ms. What, you forgot to list the time Mr. Brownstoner accused the Mirrors Bar of harboring drug activity, and said the local police precinct "needs to check that place out.""

That's right! I forgot about that one. Brownstoner yanked that one! You see Brownstoner is a meeting place for fucking hiprocrites! One you put some fire to their asses , they will try to ban you.

I love this shit! I'm in your heads.....

The What (Tick.. Tick... Tick...)

Someday this war is gonna end....

Posted by: what at August 26, 2008 3:20 PM

"One you put some fire to their asses , they will try to ban you."

I've heard of the hotfoot prank, i.e., the practical joke of lighting a match that has been secretly inserted between the sole and upper of a victim's shoe. However, I'm unfamiliar with the hotass prank - I suppose DOWhat prefers to secretly insert his match somewhere different. He's such a mischievous little devil.

Posted by: Biff Champion at August 26, 2008 3:40 PM

I'm one of those who doesn't get the sniping about smaller cities or living in Buffalo. Granted it's not NY but for some people that's exactly what they want. More power to 'em.

Posted by: east river at August 26, 2008 3:41 PM

Biff- There's a Stephen King novel that can explain it far better than I in full and exciting detail. The one with the clown in the sewer (for the life of me I can't remember the name). However there's a classic scene in the junkyard that explains it all.

Posted by: east river at August 26, 2008 3:44 PM

Good question Townhouse Lady! What the heck is weck?

Posted by: wasder at August 26, 2008 3:45 PM

Thanks east river. A clown in a sewer is exactly how I've always pictured DOWhat.

Posted by: Biff Champion at August 26, 2008 3:46 PM

TownhouseLady and wasder, courtesy of Wikipedia,

"A kummelweck, or sometimes kimmelweck or even kümmelweck, is a salty roll that is popular in Western New York. It is similar to a Kaiser roll, but topped with pretzel salt and caraway seeds. Kummelweck is commonly shortened to “weck" (pronounced "wick"), and often served in the Buffalo metropolitan area with roast beef and horseradish to form a sandwich known colloquially as "beef on weck." Along with wings, beef on weck is one of the two most distinct dishes of the region."

Posted by: Biff Champion at August 26, 2008 3:47 PM

Thanks Biff.

that Weckipedia is good for lots of stuff eh?

Tick Tick Tick. 51 days til you buy us drinks DOW-twat.

Posted by: wasder at August 26, 2008 3:53 PM

Did you guys have speidies up in Buffalo? They were a specialty in Binghamton which was also a place where real pizza took forever to migrate to. Binghamton's version was tomato paste on bread with melted velveeta. Squares of french bread.

Posted by: bxgrl at August 26, 2008 4:07 PM

wasder, I suppose I could have used Weckster's Dictionary or Funk & Wingnalls as well.

Posted by: Biff Champion at August 26, 2008 4:08 PM

That Stephen King book is "IT." Freaking scary. There was a TV movie version with John Boy from The Waltons and John Ritter (who was so hot, truly, and such a sweetheart). There's a horrific gay hate crime in the book, amongst other sundry terrors. Clowns are creepy anyway.

Bxgrl (I'm a Bronx girl too, yo, from Allerton Ave) Kingston is also supposed to be quite beautiful, with a thriving arts scene.

Posted by: I_haz_TWO_toilets at August 26, 2008 4:09 PM

Hi bxgrl. When I first read your reference to speidies, I thought they must be a German version of very skimpy men's bathing trunks!

Posted by: Biff Champion at August 26, 2008 4:18 PM

I haz TWO toilets, what an interesting bit of info re: the movie. By the way, any chance we can get some insight into your handle (no pun intended)? It sounds like a tag line from Redd Foxx's character in Sanford and Son, or something like that.

Posted by: Biff Champion at August 26, 2008 4:23 PM

Hey! I grew up in Eastchester, in what used to be called Hillside Homes.

I remember reading IT in the hospital, just before surgery. I'll never know why but I remember that scene in the junkyard too. Until I read that it never occurred to me exactly how versatile (and I'm not sure that's the word I should really use) the human body is.

Posted by: bxgrl at August 26, 2008 4:26 PM

for those who think that can't afford brownstone brooklyn:

here are some other ideas for hoods:
ridgewood, Queens
kensington
east williamsburg PS132 district
east wiliamsburg / greenpoint PS110

all safe areas that are less expensive that are good for families and have good schools that aren't over-flowing.

you need to find areas that are great values for what they offer - don't just glance at them. really look and do some research.

my advice of course is to stay away from ghetto neighborhoods. i only believe in middle class whites pioneering in places where safety is not an issue (ie: ethnic white hoods) and you can send your kids to the public school. that's my POV, others disagree.

Posted by: wine lover at August 26, 2008 4:27 PM

wine lover, what's an "ethnic white hood"?

Posted by: Biff Champion at August 26, 2008 4:28 PM

Well, make of it what you will- it was chunks of lamb (although they do it with chicken too now) on a stick, that's been marinated is spices and then grilled. You eat it with french bread and I profess it's delicious. It's the spices but I couldn't figure out exactly what they were.

Of course men in skimpy bathing trunks are nothing to be sneezed at-. We used much german beer to take advantage of them.

Posted by: bxgrl at August 26, 2008 4:32 PM

Biff- KKK'ers wear them. They're pointy with little eye holes.

Posted by: lurker in the mist at August 26, 2008 4:37 PM

I know two teachers that just moved to Buffalo and got a huge house in the best section of the city for less than $300K- loaded with details, recent upgrades, etc. Some of the houses in Parkside are truly amazing. I grew up outside of Buffalo and I miss some parts of it but not others. My bro moved to the above mentioned East Aurora a couple years ago and he would've had to get an advocate or a lawyer to get the same level of education in the NYC school system for his autistic son that was readily available for free there. It was such a fight with bureaucracy here but very easy there.

It all depends on what you are looking for- if you follow the advice of others here it's better to stay in NYC but move farther out. Well, you don't necessarily get the restaurants and amenities there either. Since I left the Buffalo area, I've seen a ton of changes for the better but I don't think it will ever be what we consider a world class city. A lot of people would trade world class for a life with less struggle if you can get a job you like well enough. The thought of dealing with a lot less BS just to get to work in the morning is sometimes appealing.

By the way, Buffalo has a lot less snow than it ever did when I was a kid and it rarely shuts the place down. And 11214, the BarBill is the best for the Beef on Weck, which I miss most. I get some every time I'm home.

Posted by: kensington gal at August 26, 2008 4:39 PM

Biff -- Remember back to that thread where there was raging debate over why a two bedroom apartment would need two bathrooms? That's the secret of my handle. I have often felt so disenfranchised here as a renter, that I couldn't help but exclaim my dual-toileted state (rented though they may be). It has become something of a joke in my house, bitter single-toilters vs. smug dual-toileters.

All in good fun, of course.

I think wine lover may be referring to Italian neighborhoods, such as Carroll Gardens back in the day. I also think wine lover may be trying to kick up a reeroar, what with talking about where white people should and should not live.

I actually live in Kensington now. I am not really a fan of the area.

Posted by: I_haz_TWO_toilets at August 26, 2008 4:45 PM

No offense intended, Kensington Gal.

Posted by: I_haz_TWO_toilets at August 26, 2008 4:48 PM

Thanks I_haz_TWO_toilets! That's funny and made me smile. Perhaps to avoid confusion, you could change your name to I_haz_TWO_toilets_in_two_separate_bathrooms, lest anyone thinks they're right beside each other. Having been a single toileter back in the day, I'm sure I was right in there on that thread expressing my jubilation at "hazzing" multiple toilets now!

Posted by: Biff Champion at August 26, 2008 5:00 PM

Thanks lurker in the mist. Can my Jewish friends still qualify to live in an "ethnic white hood"? I know they've historically faced incredible hatred when trying to assimilate with other "ethnic whites".

Posted by: Biff Champion at August 26, 2008 5:03 PM

*sigh* I only haz one but its in a bbiiiigg bathroom. Does that count?

I remember that infamous thread. You made the rest of us disenfranchied renters proud that day, I_haz. We salute you!

Posted by: lurker in the mist at August 26, 2008 5:04 PM

Just read this article in the NYTimes from today. I enjoyed it. I got goose bumps about the part about the girl who was having a rough time, then saw the skyline on a flight and realized she was home. I still feel like that every time I fly in from LGA. I thought the article was kinda pertinent and it talks about the difficult and wonderful aspects of living in the big city...

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/27/nyregion/27arrival.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin

Posted by: 11217 at August 26, 2008 5:04 PM

I do believe you were quite happy about hazzing two toilets, Biff. I also recall I had to get into quite a long explanation about how two people (and a pre-schooler) living in one home might all have the need to relive themselves at the same time, and that two toilets easily facilitated this (I believe I used the word "doody" a number of times). This evolved into a Zen Koan-like meditation on how many kitchens one reasonably needs to brew two cups of tea.

And with that, I say goodnight.

i_haz_TWO_toilets_in_two_separate_bathrooms_but_one_of_them_has_the_cat_box_so_mostly_I_just_use_the_one_in_the_hall_instead_of_the_one_in_my_bedroom

Posted by: I_haz_TWO_toilets at August 26, 2008 5:09 PM

Have to think on that biff- you know some of them have jofros so probably wine lover would feel uncomfortable with them around. They could wear hoods, but the safer solution is to bleach their hair and go nordic. ;-)

Posted by: lurker in the mist at August 26, 2008 5:11 PM

Thanks 11217. Shortly after 9/11, there was a brief piece in the New York Times Magazine written by a New Yorker who felt so attached to the city, particularly after the attacks. I have it sitting around somewhere. It was incredibly moving as well and helps people, even those of us who live here, remember why we love this city so much.

Posted by: Biff Champion at August 26, 2008 5:12 PM

*blush* Thanks Lurker!

Posted by: I_haz_TWO_toilets at August 26, 2008 5:14 PM

"my advice of course is to stay away from ghetto neighborhoods"

Please provide your definition of a "ghetto" neighborhood, wine lover.

Posted by: East New York at August 26, 2008 5:15 PM

LOL, I haz. I hate to be even smuggier, but I haz even more than two toilets now (but alas, only one kitchen). When nature calls, it's great having options. But it's even greater when friends and family visit and I don't have to have the little bakery-style take a number machine in action.

Thanks for the smiles and enjoy you're multi-loos.

Posted by: Biff Champion at August 26, 2008 5:16 PM

Braggart. I have 2 entryways, 300 (puff, puff- it feels like) steps AND 7 humongous windows. Ha! biff champion!

Posted by: lurker in the mist at August 26, 2008 5:34 PM

lurker, I'm not going to touch your 2 entryways reference with a 10-foot pole!

Posted by: Biff Champion at August 26, 2008 5:45 PM

Love those "ethnic white hoods". Have to ask if that is a reference to Nordic ski caps, or maybe furry Russian hats. Perhaps Inuit fur parkas would do. Unfortunately KKK robes fit the bill as well, but I'm SURE that has absolutely NOTHING to do with the direction that wine lover was moving towards. NOTHING.

I love upstate NY, too. I've been all over the state over the years, as I grew up near Oneonta. Unfortunately, Utica became a ghost town way back in the 70's when their entire downtown was displaced by a mall on the outskirts of town. Ironically,(or sadly, actually)the same thing happened to Binghamton when their mall was built. They were the same mall! The architecture and floorplan was the same, as was practically every store in both malls. Most of their industries started leaving around then, as well. The most prosperous small cities upstate are those with colleges, large hospitals and health related industries, tourism and/or seats of government.

I think Buffalo could be a perfectly fine place to live, if it works out with one's job, etc. I love New York City for lots of reasons, but what good is the myriad of culture here if you can't afford to go to anything? My out of town friends go to more Broadway shows than I do. I love to eat out, but good restaurants can be found anywhere, and probably more reasonably outside of the city. I'm not leaving anytime soon, but I don't reject the idea of leaving someday. NY can be a cold, cruel town when you get old.

Posted by: Montrose Morris at August 26, 2008 7:13 PM

I_haz_TWO_toilets - have you considered Saratoga or the Capitol region? For its size, which is not very big, Saratoga is extremely livable and walkable, and the Albany region does offer work opportunities.

It's not commuting distance to NYC, though there is an Amtrak station there, so car free visiting would be easy.

I'm in the same boat as you. I posted in the suburban thread a couple of weeks back how we may just finally leave Brooklyn. I think we are leaning towards a suburb of NYC though.

Anyway, just thought I would put the suggestion out there to you and others in similar positions. I would consider Saratoga myself, but my in-laws live there :P

Posted by: HmmWhichNeighborhood at August 26, 2008 7:16 PM

Of course men in skimpy bathing trunks are nothing to be sneezed at-. We used much german beer to take advantage of them.

Posted by: lurker in the mist at August 26, 2008 7:44 PM

oh CRAP! Sorry bxgrl- I was doing a cut and paste on your earlier post. I had a particularly trenchant comment to make about spiedies and german beer but I hit the submit button before I could add it. Which now seem not so trenchant, now that I think about it. Sorry- my goof.

No biff- I'm not the dow-ozy-whatshisface pretending to be me pretending to be bxgrl.

Posted by: lurker in the mist at August 26, 2008 7:57 PM

hey sorry to post and run..
historically, in both chicago where i lived a million years ago and here in NY, seen italian/polish neighborhoods gentrify to upper middle class/lower upper or whatever.. guess i'm saying folks with a 120-300 income range move into those hoods and live safely over and over again. specifically cobble hill/carroll gardens/west, middle slope, north williamsburg, greenpoint, yadda.

i define ghetto by the scary, or completely out of the element hoods for aforementioned income group. stores, shops, schools usually are not there and it's tougher to fit in and get the things this group wants. this is my observation and opinion. i'm saying what i think is all.

hispanic areas also tend to gentrify because they are not owners and move when the rents and condos and high prices come in. saw that big time in chicago and now in major areas of williamsburg.

i think living near projects in brooklyn (which is less dense than manhattan) can be a real problem because of violence and break ins and muggings.

have too many stories to share including my own, but that has been my experience both here and in Chicago. in chicago, for instance, yuppies and the very wealthy living around cabrini green typically had major break in problems. of course, they are dismantling that project.

Posted by: wine lover at August 26, 2008 8:36 PM

gee- it's nice to think I inspired you. Though I may want to reserve judgment on that until you actually post your "trenchant" comment.

MM- I remember that mall. It destroyed downtown Binghamton, but I think that's begun to come back now. The downtown had some wonderful old cast iron buildings but it wasn't really picturesque. But it had some fabulous houses in neighborhoods just outside the shopping district. Lived in a cople before i came back to NYC- sadly one of the mansions was torn down for a parking lot - shades of Joni Mitchell.

Posted by: bxgrl at August 26, 2008 8:39 PM

wine lover, I can't even begin to reply to your posts because they are so full of ignorance and assumptions that by the time I finished just laying out the details I will have far more gray hair than I already do. Thanks for your opinions, they added nothing.

Posted by: east river at August 26, 2008 8:58 PM

forget buffalo.philly is the place

Posted by: buckfast at August 26, 2008 10:39 PM

i'm too lazy to search for each post asking "what is a beef on weck" ... it's a thinly sliced rare roast beef sandwich on a kimmelweck or kummelweck roll [basically a kaiser roll topped with pretzel salt & caraway seeds] served with au jus [beef juice] and horseradish. it's commonly found on the menu of every good bar and tavern in the buffalo area. beef on weck + a cold beer = my husband's idea of food heaven.

Posted by: 11214 at August 27, 2008 7:18 AM

anyone looking for an excellent public school system would do very well in the williamsville central school district in williamsville/east amherst ny. it is near the ub north campus and ranked 49th out of 693 school districts in the state.

Posted by: 11214 at August 27, 2008 7:35 AM

the debate here is in the choice of lifestyle. some people may say that a $1300 apartment in buffalo is worth it to them and a $735 apartment in brooklyn wouldn't cut it. dif'rnt strokes and all that.

Posted by: rocky4 at August 27, 2008 8:59 AM

lurker, I dare admit I was wondering what happened and even thought perhaps all of us are one and the same poster.

i_haz_two_DOWhatDaves-Nokilechacel-bxchampion-Make My Heights the Heather_Pole.etc.etc...

Posted by: Biff Champion at August 27, 2008 9:35 AM

historically, in both chicago where i lived a million years ago and here in NY, seen italian/polish neighborhoods gentrify to upper middle class/lower upper or whatever.. guess i'm saying folks with a 120-300 income range move "into those hoods and live safely over and over again. specifically cobble hill/carroll gardens/west, middle slope, north williamsburg, greenpoint, yadda.

"i define ghetto by the scary, or completely out of the element hoods for aforementioned income group. stores, shops, schools usually are not there and it's tougher to fit in and get the things this group wants. this is my observation and opinion. i'm saying what i think is all.

hispanic areas also tend to gentrify because they are not owners and move when the rents and condos and high prices come in. saw that big time in chicago and now in major areas of williamsburg.

in chicago, for instance, yuppies and the very wealthy living around cabrini green typically had major break in problems."

Interesting...you avoid using the words "black people," but I think it's pretty clear where you're going. Thanks.

Posted by: East New York at August 27, 2008 10:00 AM

I think of us as an enormous Rat King, myself. Entangled tales- er- tails.

It's the What's fault. If I hadn't been testing his cut and paste technique it never would have happened.

Posted by: lurker in the mist at August 27, 2008 10:01 AM

Hey, "I Haz":
Check out Columbus, Ohio...SERIOUSLY.

Posted by: Dyker Blights at August 27, 2008 10:28 AM

what is up with the hostility??!! the article at no point insults NYC--simply states facts and shows that there are alternatives out there, and that people who make the change from NYC to other areas, in this case buffalo, have lives in their new city or town -- better for them than before. different strokes for different folks people!

as a native brooklyn-er and die-hard ny'er, even I think about leaving, for many of the reasons stated in the article. and know what...many of my friends have left...and their lives are better for it. they have jobs, they have friends, they go out to restaurants and cultural events...there is life outside NY. It's this belief by people in NY that there is no other option or cool places that makes me consider locating to a more tranquil city.

Posted by: bklnnative at August 27, 2008 11:46 AM

Good morning Stoners.

Dyker -- Columbus, really? Can you write a little more about it? I've never been to Ohio. I dated a guy from there once and he was a hunk of yummy Americana (that's my complete Columbus frame of reference).

Speaking of Philly, this is a move my husband and I have seriously considered. Would anyone with experience in that city be willing to talk about neighborhoods, school districts, the job situation, etc?

HmmmmWhichNeighborhood -- would love to hear more about the Saratoga/Capitol region.

Biff: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0099864/ I had completely forgotten that TIM CURRY, that delicious vamp, played the scary clown in the sewer!

Posted by: I_haz_TWO_toilets at August 27, 2008 11:50 AM

No offense taken, I haz TWO toilets. I hear you- Kensington for us was the place we could stay in the city and get the house we always wanted while trying to keep the commute time down to under 40 minutes (express bus). We figured on having so little left over after buying the house that we wouldn't be eating out much anyway, which has come to pass. It has it's own charms and pluses but as for the amenities, there are days I think I might as well be in Buffalo. But I do have to say it has gotten a little more lively here. I'm fortunate to live on the east side of K, closer to the Q train and the restaurants and stuff on Cortelyou so I get to glom off another neighborhood's niceties.

Posted by: kensington gal at August 27, 2008 12:27 PM

Glad I didn't offend Kensington gal. I'm down near Ditmas Ave on Ocean Parkway in a 2 bedroom rental (with 2 baths, natch). We had to move quickly from our old place, and this rental, which is relatively cheap, presented itself as a quick fix. It's a long commute for me to mid-town (East Side) and, as you note, rather amenity-free. Good for you for getting a house that makes you happy! I'm still looking. :)

Posted by: I_haz_TWO_toilets at August 27, 2008 2:30 PM

I Haz:

I'm an ex-pat Brooklynite, and have been out here in Columbus for about 4 years. I like to call it "A nice place to live, but I wouldn't want to visit here". It's pretty low-key, more cosmopolitan than you'd think, and quite affordable. The who place kind of revolves around Ohio State (50K+ students), which give us a good arts scene (Wexner Center, plus a movement to make Cols. the "indie arts capital of the world). Economy here is pretty recession-proff (unlike the rest of Ohio), since most folks either work for the University, the state government (we're the capital), insurance (Nationwide & others headquartered here, or retail (Limited Brands & DSW headquartered here).
I will say this: real estae in C-Bus is CHEAP. You can buy a 3bedroom house in Clintonville (closest thing here to Park Slope) for under $200K. Columbus was also voted most gay-friendly city in the Midwest, and #9 city for business by Black America Magazine. I don't fit into either of those categories, but I think it speaks to the diversity here, and (lack of) racial tension.
Restaurants aren't great, but they are getting better. Downtown needs work: not dangerous, just deserted after 5pm.
For more info, look up the following neighborhoods: Clintonville, German Village, Victorian Village, Grandview Heights, Bexley (technically suburbs).
Also, check columbusunderground.com , a cool website along the line of that Buffalo one...

Posted by: Dyker Blights at August 27, 2008 3:19 PM

Thanks Dyker!

Posted by: I_haz_TWO_toilets at August 27, 2008 5:09 PM

Just read this thread, and my heartstrings went zing at the mentions of the bar bill. Never did I expect to see one of the best bars ever, in my hometown, show up on Brownstoner. East Aurora is another reason to consider Buffalo, a beautiful town a quick 20 minutes south of the city, lots of history, the Roycroft Inn, toy museum (because headquarters of Fisher Price), nice downtown, the incomparable Vidler's Five & Dime--and no Wal-Marts!

bar bill definitely the best beef on weck in Buffalo area, but for truly sublime beef on weck you need to visit the Beef n'Barrel in Olean, another 80 miles south. However, there is absolutely no other reason to visit Olean, so unless you are already making a trip through the southern tier stick to bar bill.

And for those of you who never heard of beef on weck, well, call Jet Blue, book a flight, your life cannot be complete without a taste of this sublime sandwich.

Posted by: east auroran at August 28, 2008 5:11 AM

BTW, I'm not saying pack the U-Haul. I love to visit, but can't imagine moving back. Simply no jobs, can can't see that changing any time soon. Great houses though

Posted by: east auroran at August 28, 2008 5:24 AM

OMG Vidler's! My parents used to take me there often as a child.

And beef on weck...mmmm....with REAL horseradish.

Posted by: lesterhead at August 28, 2008 11:05 AM

I'm so sorry I missed this thread. Now nobody but me is reading it. But as a born and bred Buffalonian, I love it that a thread (mostly) about Buffalo got this much attention. It was a great place to grow up. My mom is a nurse and my dad is a piano teacher, but we still had a good standard of living once their careers got going. The public schools were really good - especially the magnet schools - and there's a ton to do if you're in to art, music, dance, or theater. There are beautiful parks, and Niagara Falls is a twenty minute drive away (the Canadian side is where to go).

I go back every two or three months to visit family, and I miss it. Yes, the winters are cold. But in the summer, when we're suffering here through 99-degree heat and brownouts, it's 80-degrees there with a nice breeze. You don't technically need a car I guess, but my family didn't have one when I was little and I would have to say that you wouldn't want to live there without at least one car. But that's OK, because you'd be able to afford it.

The job situation is not great, but I can totally see someone moving there because of a job. It really is a pleasant place to live. And after being made fun of incessantly for decades, Buffalonians tend to have good senses of humor.

I've never looked for 50 kinds of bleu cheese, I'm guessing most people just want the kind that goes on Duff's wings. Buffalo has the best subs, and I can't believe the thread got this long without anyone mentioning Mighty Taco. I've got six of their burritos in my freezer right now.

I think Buffalo is like any other place, in that people who grew up there and know it well can see the good things while knowing that the bad things don't affect them much. The east side is a hole. My school bus took me through it every day for 13 years. But I bet most Buffalonians never go there, just like most Brooklynites don't find themselves in East New York very often (unless we're driving to BJ's). The Elmwood strip is hip and interesting and artsy. And not merely on a Buffalo scale, just hip and artsy enough for anywhere. To a large extent a city is what you make of it. Buffalo has a lot to offer. We talk about moving back all the time. If we weren't happy with our lives in Brooklyn, there's a good chance we'd be back in Buffalo before the Sabres home opener.

Posted by: FilmingInBrooklyn at August 31, 2008 9:15 PM

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August 26, 2008

Can't Cut It In Brooklyn? Try Buffalo.

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