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July 3, 2008

Toren: Naked No Longer

toren-condos-cladding.jpg
Wowza! Downtown's Toren is not only rising at lightning speed—now at 32 of its 38 stories—it's also started showing its face to the world. The 110 Livingston blog has some shots via Wired NY of some curtain wall that's been installed at the SOM-designed condo (one of our advertisers). According to the Toren website, the building's skin was manufactured in Buenos Aires.
New Flatbush Ave. Rising; Toren Condos Getting Clad [110 Livingston]
Toren [Wired NY] GMAP




Posted by Gabby at 12:30 PM | Comments (55)
Categories: Development, Downtown Brooklyn

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ya go non-union, ya go up quick. interesting profile of toren developer here: http://www.villagevoice.com/news/0826,high-cost-condos,478472,4.html

Posted by: guest at July 3, 2008 12:52 PM

Looks pretty good to me.

Are all developments that are suppose to surround this building on schedule?

I'm talking Avalon Bay Luxury rentals to north, Red Apple Development to east, and City Point across the street?

Not to mention the Willoughby Square Park across the street.

If this actually transpires, this neighborhood will be something special.


Posted by: guest at July 3, 2008 12:54 PM

Interesting.

I was wondering how they got union workers to work so diligently. Now I know.

Hate to say that being a NY liberal but sometimes you have call it the way it is.


Posted by: guest at July 3, 2008 1:01 PM

Came across some additional pictures and comments about Toren.

May be worth a look.

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=147216&page=4

Posted by: guest at July 3, 2008 1:28 PM

On streeteasy the number of apartment in contract just jumped to 58. Including the 42 affordable units, that makes 100 in contract. Not bad for only a few months...

Posted by: guest at July 3, 2008 1:45 PM

This building looks wicked-cool. Great to get a piece of Skidmore architecture in the hood, especially with so many mediocrities (Forte, for example) are popping up everywhere.

Posted by: Rehab at July 3, 2008 1:58 PM

I walked through the sales center this past weekend. What they were listing is at about $790/ft, compared to ~$710 at Forte and Oro. This definitely appears to be of a much higher quality though. Forte's skin already looks 20 years old.

Few funny comments out of the rookie broker trying to sell the place to me:

1- Starts pitch with SOM. "They are ACTUALLY the best architect in the world."

Response: Really? Is there some kind of award for that?

2- Move pitch to developer.... "After SOM was on board they went out and CHOSE a great developer to work with, BFC Partners."

Response: So the architect chose the developer?

Broker: Yeah, they only wanted to work with (for?) the best.

3- close the deal with enviromentally friendly pitch...... "With energy costs where they are, we decided to build a completely energy efficient buidling. This is ACTUALLY the first LEED certified Gold
building in Brooklyn.

Response: So its certified already?

Broker: Yes. First one in Brooklyn!

Response: Wow that's impressive, you haven't even finished yet!

Posted by: guest at July 3, 2008 2:12 PM

They really are flying on this project. The offering plan shows an April '09 "completion" date but I was told July '09 was more likely.

Posted by: guest at July 3, 2008 2:32 PM

Just purchased in the Toren and must admit that Skidmore was an important part of my decision making. Don't know if they are the best in business but they are building the largest tower in the world in Dubai and second largest in Moscow. Add to this Sears, Hancock Center in Chicago, Freedom Tower, Time Warner in NYC and many others. That should count for something. I doubt that Dubai is selecting them on price point. They have received many awards for their architecture over the years.

I think it is safe to say, S.O.M. knows towers.

Here is a statement put out by BFS:

Capoccia, in a published statement, said buyers are seeking to live in a Gold LEED-certified building where a cogeneration plant will supply heat, power and air conditioning at less cost and will protect residents from any brownouts or blackouts during the high heat of summer.

Whether it is true or not, I don't know. Didn't see the actual certificate but I do like self generation concept off the Con Ed grid.

Anyway, I love the building and can't wait to completion.


Posted by: guest at July 3, 2008 3:33 PM

If what they are listing is at $790 / sqft, then prices are up 10% since I put down the deposit for my aparatment.

So while the market tanked 10% in the last month, my real estate investment went up 10%?

Very flukey, and fortunate...

Posted by: guest at July 3, 2008 3:41 PM

LOL 212

Posted by: guest at July 3, 2008 4:05 PM

Average active sale listing on StreetEasy is $748 psf not $790.

Reasonable pricing for S.O.M. building probably due to pre-construction of both building and the immediate neighborhood.

Judging from appearances, both these variables will be gone considering the active building taking place in the area. The Toren and surrounding area is hopping. Once projects are completed you can expect nice price jump especially considering the look of the cladding in the picture. Apparently all projects rushed to make 421 abatement. (Noticed that Toren has 25 year abatement due to affordable housing in lower floors)

When and if City Point is built across the street, this building psf pricing will take off like a rocket.

Only thing that would concern me is the dreadful economy in NYC though certain premier developments seem to escape market forces. Could be that poor economy may help this project if young professionals want cool hip looking building with super amenities but can't afford Manhattan prices.

Be interesting to see how this building plays out. Plus with all the tall buildings next door on the drawing board, view may not be a lock on any side excepting west looking over Metrotech.

Posted by: guest at July 3, 2008 4:49 PM

"Very flukey, and fortunate..."

Very flakey and unfortunate. You equate 'wish' price with 'get' price.

Posted by: guest at July 3, 2008 5:22 PM

wait for closing prices to make your judgments, OP amendments are just asking prices. which market has tanked 10%?

Posted by: BrooklynLove at July 3, 2008 5:41 PM

That condo is off the hook. The price points seem to be right on the money. I never thought of living in Downtown Brooklyn but that would make me consider it.

Posted by: guest at July 3, 2008 5:45 PM

3:33

You make me laugh. SOM is a large firm, so to say that the same architects who worked on the Sears tower 40 years ago, make your decision relevant today is laughable.

Yes, SOM does know towers. they also aren't builders. and David Childs "Freedom Tower" is crap design.

Posted by: guest at July 3, 2008 5:48 PM

Point well taken though maybe a little too stridently.

Let me put it another way, I'm more confident in a S.O.M. project that some fly by night architectural firm.

Posted by: guest at July 3, 2008 7:57 PM

2:12

That was funny! I had the exact same pitch told to me. Almost word for word. Granted, she was very cute but damn, she was friendly while her co-workers were lazy asshats. Their white receptionist girl is a lazy, bad attitude b*&ch and some guy over there who takes his job title way too seriously, e.g., "I'm not a sales associate, I'm a sales coordinator." What a douchebag!

For those really considering buying, insist on seeing ALL the unit floorplans since they are releasing them in phases. I loved the place but their 2bed/2bath are too small.

Posted by: guest at July 3, 2008 10:17 PM

2:12

That was funny! I had the exact same pitch told to me. Almost word for word. Granted, she was very cute but damn, she was friendly while her co-workers were lazy asshats. Their white receptionist girl is a lazy, bad attitude b*&ch and some guy over there who takes his job title way too seriously, e.g., "I'm not a sales associate, I'm a sales coordinator." What a douchebag!

For those really considering buying, insist on seeing ALL the unit floorplans since they are releasing them in phases. I loved the place but their 2bed/2bath are too small.

Posted by: guest at July 3, 2008 10:21 PM

I loved the building also but couldn't agree more about the female receptionist. If she hates her job so much why doesn't she find another.

If going over for a tour, I'd recommend Marco. A nice guy and rather cute.

I'm saving for a studio but if it keeps on selling at the same pace, I may be left out in the cold.

Posted by: guest at July 4, 2008 7:56 AM

I've been accused of being overexuberant, in the past, about my love for the Toren project so I'll restrict myself to answering a question posed earlier about surrounding area.

Apparently, almost all surrounding structures are on schedule from the information I could gather.

Avalon Bay luxury rentals is progressing nicely on its 44 storied building to the North. (refer to Brownstoner on June 2nd)

http://www.brownstoner.com/brownstoner/archives/2008/06/development_wat_240.php

The Red Apple project to the east has started on the first of four luxury condos, that being the one closest to Ashland Avenue. (refer to Brownstoner May 29th)

http://www.brownstoner.com/brownstoner/archives/2008/05/cat_man_plans_g.php

City Point is projected to start in October/November and are presently active in the demolition stage. Completion date estimated in 2010.

http://www.brownstoner.com/brownstoner/archives/2008/07/development_wat_252.php

http://www.brownstoner.com/brownstoner/archives/2008/01/more_details_on_1.php

Oro II is inactive but it appears it is a done deal with a Hilton subsidiary being the largest tenant if not 100% tenancy. (refer to Brownstoner April 22nd)

http://www.brownstoner.com/brownstoner/archives/2008/04/second_oros_hot.php

When the city starts moving forward on the demolition for Willoughby Square Park and projected pedestrian-oriented streetscape, I'll be ecstatic.

Hopefully, when skycrapers are nearing completion the city will feel the pressure of fulfilling promised landscaping.


Posted by: Junkman at July 4, 2008 8:35 AM

all good re the development along this corridor, and toren is indeed looking great, but frankly it's silly to attribute some additional value to the identity of the architect. you're better advised to find out what you can about the developer. the SOM pitch is pure marketing, which becomes irrelevant in the resale market. if the building looks nice and its built well then you're good. the name drop is just static.

Posted by: BrooklynLove at July 4, 2008 10:15 AM

the fitrst AB bldg (closet to Ashland) is scheduled to be completed in 3rd qtr 2009

Posted by: guest at July 4, 2008 10:48 AM

Bah humbug.

Posted by: guest at July 4, 2008 2:08 PM

Just curious. This site -- and others in the "corridor" -- will be zoned for which local public school?

Oh....really? So, the residents' children will be educated, where?

Oh...there's ample enough space in Packer and St. Ann's?

Oh...there won't BE any children. I get it.

Hahahahahahahaha.

Posted by: guest at July 5, 2008 12:45 AM

I'd like to know where all these buyers are going to go for groceries, a pharmacy and restaurant? You are all going to be screwed when the gangstas prey on you night and day.

Posted by: guest at July 5, 2008 1:19 AM

Mr. B, my posts are being held every single time. Is there some way to fix this?

Thanks...

Posted by: guest at July 5, 2008 1:30 PM

1.19

There will be a Duane Reade and Gristedes-style grocery store on the same block, down the road on Myrtle Avenue. Ground has already broken on construction, being take care of by Red Apple.

As for restaurants, Morton's steakhouse is about the open in Metrotech, and who knows what else in Citypoint / other ground-level retail. Restaurant situation is not as great as, let's say, Park Slope, but then again it is only a 15 minute walk to Park Slope, so it's not such a big deal.

Posted by: guest at July 5, 2008 2:04 PM

12.45, presumably the zoning will the same as for Oro:

Community District 302
City Council District 35
Police Precinct 84

Your rant doesn't make a whole lot of sense, to be perfectly honest...

Posted by: guest at July 5, 2008 2:10 PM

"Build it and they will come."

Logically, don't you think an enterprising entrepreneur is envisioning capital opportunities in this area? I can assure you that even if Red Apple Development didn't decide to build a grocery store and Duane Reade on Myrtle/Ashland in his first development someone else would have filled the gap.

Personally I use Fresh Direct. You can bet that between all these new condo developments there will be cleaners, specialty food outlets, and restaurants looking to gain a foothold.

Doesn't take too much imagination to realize that all the new hotels will have restaurants on their premises.. New hotels are Sheraton, Hotel Indigo, Aloft, Marriott, Hilton etc. all within a block radius from the Toren. Do you think that City Point, across the street, will have a restaurant or two or three to serve the projected tallest building in Brooklyn.

BrooklynLove, how about partnering up with me and us leasing up the space under the Dime Dome, now wasted as a retail bank under the soon to be bought out Washington Mutual. You know the neighborhood as well as anybody, can't you see this space serving as a high end restaurant drinking establishment. It is an incredible space wasted as a banking facility. People don't appreciate the surrounding when they go here to transact business but to sit there and have a meal and a few drinks with clients under that gorgeous dome would be a transcending experience. I project a one of a kind restaurant there in a few years.

Can you imagine for a second the disposable income that will be concentrated in this area in 3 years?

Oro, Oro II, Toren, City Point, BelTell, Avalon Bay, FlatIron, 235 Gold, 168 Nassau, 80 DeKalb, 384 Bridge, University Condos, NYU. LIU campuses, MetroTech and more.

Don't you think this population will attract retail?

By the way, I stand corrected by putting so much emphasis on the S.O.M. brand, I worked with a few idiots from Harvard which should have taught me a long time ago not to generalize though I do like what i see so far. Hopefully the Toren will meet up with my expectations.



Posted by: Junkman at July 5, 2008 4:27 PM

JM - if i had the capital to spare i'd love to get in on a new dining establishment somewhere along fulton mall between livingston and willoughby. something swank that charges 10 dollars for an amstel. you get the idea.

the thing about retail banks - it's all about brand exposure. the same motivation drives a bank to lease that beautiful DSB building space as does citi to pay for naming rights at shea. unforunately i don't think that we'll be seeing wamu leave that space for a long time. but yeah it would be great to see something like capitale (bowery savings bank) come in there.

i did a little more poking around re the square block next to toren. looks like two seperate LLCs have gradually acquired all but the nyc transit building lot next to the car wash and the girls and boys home lot @ crnr of fleet and willoughby - one LLC now owns the car wash and the adjacent parcel to the east, the other LLC owns everything else. so walking around the block starting at the nyc transit building and heading SE, LLC 1 owns the first 2 lots, then you have the girls/boys home, then LLC 2 owns everything else all the way around until you get back to the nyc transit building. the car wash sold in 2007 so this still looks to be a work in progress. it would seem that one of the two LLCs would make a play for the girls/boys home lot as well. i'd give these buildings 5 years more, mas o menos.

Posted by: BrooklynLove at July 5, 2008 10:46 PM

The photo was not placed on Wired New York anonymously. The photo credit goes to BrooklynRider. I'm surprised that basic courtesy of credit was not given. Do I have to watermark photos to have the effort recognized?

Posted by: guest at July 6, 2008 2:37 AM

Nice work on lot information, BrooklynLove, appreciate it.

Yea, a Cipriani is exactly what I had in mind. Check out the pictures below of what it looks like:

http://www.cipriani.com/cipriani/Locs/42main.htm

and compare it to the possibilities of the Dime Savings Bank:

http://www.forgotten-ny.com/NEIGHBORHOODS/albee/albee.html

Once new condo residents populate Albee Square area plus residents from Heights, DUMBO, Cobble Hill, Boerum Hill, Fort Greene, Park Slope, Vinegar Hill, and Carroll Gardens, this space could be the centerpiece of the good life. Yes, $10 Amstel's maybe even $12. (Need to charge premium dollars for premium space. Williamsburg Bank space is asking $2 million for a year's lease.)

You know Marty appreciates a good meal and we could surely twist his arm to kick off opening night with one of his "Brooklyn is the greatest" speeches.

If I only had the money. What better name for the establishment than "BrooklynLove". Very appropriate.

Take care and keep up your informative posting here and everywhere else.


Posted by: Junkman at July 6, 2008 6:40 AM

Dear 2:10.

So, the children in these new buildings will be zoned for which public schools exactly?

Are those schools named, are they even mentioned, and their levels of achievement highlighted in the buildings' marketing campaigns?

That's my point. Or, are only singles and dual-income no-kid households going to reside in the new "corridor"? And, if not, where are they going to send their children to be educated?

Just wondering if prospective buyers think the public schools in the area will handle their needs, suddenly improve, or if some new spots will miraculously materialize in private schools that have no room and that cost $25,000 per annum in any event.

Posted by: guest at July 6, 2008 9:50 AM

9.50,

Go to the NYC department of education website, and you can find all the information you're looking for.

I think NYC in general suffers from a shortage of good public schools - as always, parents who can't afford prive school will send their kids to public school, and may parents who can afford private school will PROBABLY send their kids to private school (and there are plenty of very good private schools in Brooklyn).

Posted by: guest at July 6, 2008 10:37 AM

Boy Genius.

I have lived in Brooklyn Heights, considered by many to be the most affluent part of Brooklyn, for 26 years across the street from the only public elementary school in the neighborhood PS 8. This school has only begun to improve over the last 5 years primarily due to an excellent principal. Brooklyn Heights doesn't even have a public middle school.

You make it sound like this problem with finding a decent public school will be unique to the Flatbush corridor? Where have you been?

At least there are excellent private schools nearby, which can't be said for other parts of the city. As you mentioned earlier, Packer Collegiate Institute, St. Ann's are two of the finest in NYC plus Fantis Parochial School on 195 State, Berkelely Carroll School, Brooklyn Friends School on 375 Pearl. St Francis Xavier School, Brooklyn Heights Montessori School. One of the best public high schools in the city is down the block, Brooklyn Tech.

Where do all the children in Boerum Hill, Cobble Hill etc send their kids? You can ask that question for just about any locale.

The fact is, those families that are moving into the high rise corridor of Flatbush will probably have more than enough resources to take care of their kids education. Have you checked to see what a 2 bedroom cost in any of these buildings?

Ideally, it would be great if the neighborhood public school can have a great mixture of socio-economic groups of children of different races. It took forever for that to happen here in the Heights and it still is a work in progress.

In conclusion, your concern for the children of the corridor is misplaced, they will have no problem getting the education they need. If you really are concerned about where the next generation will be educated, offer your time and money to an inner city school where many of the families are broken and financial resources are limited.

Posted by: Junkman at July 6, 2008 1:15 PM

or move to CT. well said JM.

Posted by: BrooklynLove at July 6, 2008 3:26 PM

crap. looks like the 2 LLCs are josh guttman. how this guy can continue to buy properties is beyond me. not good.

Posted by: BrooklynLove at July 6, 2008 3:43 PM

negative bytes bite.

Posted by: BrooklynLove at July 6, 2008 4:47 PM

As a resident in Downtown Brooklyn for quite some time now, I think the prices for houses and apartments in this area are becoming extremely inflated. I live in an 800 square ft apartment with my wife and daughter, and we need to find something that is much more practical for raising a family.

Can anyone recommend an area where I can find a 2 family house that is affordable and not overly expensive because it's considered a trendy and hip community? At this stage in my life, I'm willing to move out of Brooklyn for the right situation.

Posted by: Smatchums at July 6, 2008 8:10 PM

BrooklynLove,

Surely anything is better than a car wash?!?

Posted by: guest at July 6, 2008 11:19 PM

Mr. B, why do we get a message saying our posts will only be held once when in fact they're held every time? It'd be cool if there was some kind of workaround for this so that the process didn't take so long.

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 8:03 AM

Agreed. Unfortunately, there's no workaround for a human troll whose IP can't be blocked who delights in posting long cut-and-pastes at every chance he/she gets.

Posted by: brownstoner at July 7, 2008 8:47 AM

First off, there is a workaround. It's called "mandatory registration".

Second, even if you choose to tolerate the troll by not requiring registration, there's no reason why you can't correct your erroneous message about how posts will only be held the first time. Just make the message say that all posts will be held for a certain period.

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 10:21 AM

10:21am cry me a river.

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 11:25 AM

10:21am asked Mr. B to correct a message that is on all accounts in error. What's wrong with that? The msg can say whatever Mr. B thinks it ought to say, but surely it should be accurate, no?

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 11:41 AM

Oh, Mr. B, dude, it is trivially easy to block someone's ip address. You could put an end to this so easily. Seriously, ANY noob technician from Geek Squad could fix this for you.

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 11:46 AM

We can block IPs, no problem, but some trolls go through anonymizing gateways that generate new IPs for the user each time he comments. It's un-blockable.

Posted by: brownstoner at July 7, 2008 11:49 AM

Well, you do have the option of blocking the anonymization services themselves, I would think?

Posted by: Carol Gardens at July 7, 2008 12:04 PM

the concern is that it wouldn't be out of the ordinary for guttman to do nothing there for many years.

Posted by: BrooklynLove at July 7, 2008 1:18 PM

How can we find out more about Guttman and his plans for those bldgs??

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 1:37 PM

What? Are you saying that Guttman is the cut-and-paste troll?

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 2:00 PM

lots of historical info re guttman on this website and dumbonyc.com

Posted by: BrooklynLove at July 7, 2008 3:06 PM

Mr B: What about blocking "guest" posts that are more than some specified size?

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 3:25 PM

BrooklynLove,

Thanks for pictures of Downtown Brooklyn on other site. Excellent work. Truly appreciate it.

Posted by: Junkman at July 14, 2008 4:48 PM

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