Old Hands on the Restaurant Scene Face a New Brooklyn

Staten Island?

Posted by: guest at July 9, 2008 10:21 AM

why did the writer include brooklyn heights among the neighborhoods hostile to these guys?

COME TO BROOKLYN HEIGHTS! we'll welcome you with open arms. I know, rent is crazy. but just charge crazy prices -- we're rich! we'll pay it!

Posted by: guest at July 9, 2008 10:27 AM

I can't wait for the Chickens....

Posted by: guest at July 9, 2008 10:32 AM

Please, in 1997, Smith Street was not the yuppie utopia it is now, but it was not a "horror show".

Posted by: guest at July 9, 2008 10:34 AM

come to bed-stuy!!! Please. the nabe needs it and rents are low.

Posted by: guest at July 9, 2008 10:37 AM

Harding lives in Bed Stuy. Probably won't happen there. Don't shit where you eat I believe is the phrase.

Posted by: guest at July 9, 2008 10:48 AM

I like many of their restaurants, but I don't think that article was 100%

They had nothing to do with Pioneer Bar-B-Q, they were the owners of The Old Pioneer. Similar place in the same location, but BBQ was not introduced on the menu until after they left.

Regardless, they did trailblaze Red Hook before most did, which seems to be their most effective strategy and neighborhoods are better off for it. It's a good sign if they are hopping up in your neighborhood, and I would recommend supporting all your local businesses, especially theirs. It's hard work and it will make your hood a better place.

Posted by: guest at July 9, 2008 10:50 AM

I agree with 10:34, the mythologizing of Smith Street as the Wild West is disingenuous and racist. It was always just around the corner from Court Street folks. Sorry if some people found the latinos and bodegas threatening. Also, as far as I recall, Hope & Anchor opened in Red Hook in 2001, and has been successful ever since. But then, unlike Patois, or the Good Fork, it actually appeals to and serves those people of color that the New York Times only seems interested in when they're toothless or in handcuffs. Guess Donald G. McNeil Jr. was still away at some state university in the midwest when all this was happening....

Posted by: guest at July 9, 2008 10:57 AM

Man people like to bitch about everything - I wish all 'chains' were small start ups like these guys... Sweetwater is just fine... plus most places are part of a small empire: diner/marlow/bonita, dumont/dressler/dumont burger, pt/D.O.C Spuyten Duyvil/fette sau

Posted by: guest at July 9, 2008 10:57 AM

Oh my god - now I understand why there are so many terrible restaurants in my neighborhood. They snap up every space, create a fun-to-mediocre atmosphere and serve awful food. Just went to Patios the other evening (out of duress - no seats availabe at any of the half-way decent restaurants on smith) and every dish we got was practically inedible. Nightmare. Why can't Mark Firth (marlow & sons) or Colin Devlin (dressler) come to bococa? PLEASE! save us from this unstoppable plague of mediocrity running rampant in what is otherwise a lovely area!

Posted by: guest at July 9, 2008 10:59 AM

Is it true that the owner of Piadina in the W. Village is opening a restaurant in Bed-Stuy?

Posted by: guest at July 9, 2008 11:04 AM

the best thing about this article for me is that it informed me of the breadth of the ownership and now i know where these guys have treaded. i don't follow their ownership, either flocking to their restaurants nor avoiding them, but now that will change.

i have always given their restaurants a try and often liked them, at least for while. but what seems to happen without fail is that i'll return to the restaurant to have the worst possible, inedibile meal, one that i wouldn't feed a dog. i don't know how simple food can get so screwed up. and the service and management usually seems to deteriorate as well.

now it all makes sense: they start-up a place and then move on to search-out real estate and design a new place, leaving the existing restaurants to falter. no wonder so many have closed--even simple places like schnack. how can you screw up sausages and fries? (i'm sure the CANNED chili with orange soda, spices, and doritos will get screwed-up, too.

i'm not chasing them with pitchforks but it is clear to me that they have the potential to downgrade the quality and the clientele of a particular area. contrast this with saul bolton who is in the kitchen most nights, and has always served a fine meal. i find no integrity in the approach of these two guys.

Posted by: guest at July 9, 2008 11:10 AM

Brownstoner, please erase above post. Poster, you are a sad, sad person. I feel sorry for you. The more of these crazy things you post, the more you demonstrate how much is lacking in your life. So keep on doing this, instead of going out and actually having a real life -- we are all pitying you, but hopefully, will now all ignore you.

Posted by: guest at July 9, 2008 11:25 AM

Oh, I see same poster couldn't stop. You know, Karma is a crazy thing. Perhaps the reason your life is so sad is because you keep doing things like these posts, designed only to ruin and bother people. Think about it -- maybe if you behave a bit better toward others, your life would improve.

Posted by: guest at July 9, 2008 11:28 AM

10:59 loses all credibility when referring to the neighborhood as "BoCoCa". Ick...

The "Cookin' In Brooklyn" theme is quite catchy, btw.

Posted by: guest at July 9, 2008 11:36 AM

anyone using the term "boccoca" has very little taste much less taste buds

Posted by: guest at July 9, 2008 11:38 AM

I use the term bococa because it is too tedious to write out CH, CG and BH - I agree the term is hideous and never use it in speech.

Posted by: guest at July 9, 2008 11:41 AM

Any resentment is not the restaurants or whether you think food is great or mediocre.
It is several of the establishments with the outdoor space are a nuisance to quality of life and when moved off Smith St where street life is welcome to quiet residential corner they showed they have little concern for other than themselves.
So, now, (and thanks NYTimes for complete list of their establishments) I won't patronize any of them. Plenty of other places to choose from.
(and ditto on NYTimes condescending attitude).

Posted by: guest at July 9, 2008 11:47 AM

Oh poo - I think restaurants on Hoyt are a great thing and I live right off it. I would die of joy to have an oyster bar on my corner.

Posted by: guest at July 9, 2008 12:16 PM

11:47 am

Yeah, nothing like hollow threats of never doing business with "whomever". The bad attitude passenger on a budget airline complaining about how he had to wait 1 hour and insisting on talking to a "manager" in order to his next flight for free "or else" he'll never fly with them again. Guess what? After a couple flights with a higher cost carrier, he will come back and use the budget airliner because he is a loser and is cheap.

Posted by: guest at July 9, 2008 12:22 PM

Oh poo - I think restaurants on Hoyt are a great thing and I live right off it. I would die of joy to have an oyster bar on my corner.

Posted by: guest at July 9, 2008 12:29 PM

People are always complaining about neighborhoods because they have no ammenities. Well these two brought the most popular type of ammenities to CH, CG & BH or BO-CO-CA, making those areas even more attractive to more people. I bet that the residents who oppose them are not complaining about how these places have improved their property values.

The Mamary has done well in Ditmas Park where the rents are still reasonable. The dynamic duo should continue down the 'Q' train line into Midwood, Sheepheads Bay and Coney Island. There is definitely life (and money) south of Prospect Park.

Posted by: guest at July 9, 2008 12:45 PM

Die of joy for an oyster bar? Talk about needing a life!!! See, actually, you'll die of lack of sleep, as the drunken patrons spill out until all hours of the night. It's not an oyster bar... IT'S A BAR!!! Those owners are sleazy! It's great to know what they own so we can boycott them all!!! THanks NYTimes... finally some brooklyn info we can use!

Posted by: guest at July 9, 2008 12:46 PM

"Think about it -- maybe if you behave a bit better toward others, your life would improve."

You sound like Mr. Rogers.

Posted by: guest at July 9, 2008 12:46 PM

I think alot of people are just jealous that these two are successful , they get to do what they want with their lives, choose their own hours, and be creative at what they do (yes creative, wether its choosing the style of decor, the advertising, or the menu). Most naysayers are working hard making more money for their bosses than themselves, doing things they dont like, while still ending up eating at these places, and grumbling under their food filled breath that they suck (if they did suck to the majority, why would they even be writing about the mini empire they have created?) jealous people out there, wish they could own even one restaurant, but wouldnt have the skill to draw up their own menu, jealous consumers, sitting at their desks at this moment, hoping their boss doesnt catch them bitching on a neighborhood blog on "their time".

Posted by: guest at July 9, 2008 1:05 PM

12:46

Admit it, you don't spend money at restaurants and if you did, you weren't going to their places anyway. It's really easy to boycott some business that you never went to anyway!

Posted by: guest at July 9, 2008 1:05 PM

I lived just off Smith Street in the 90's and the posters who say it wasn't that bad don't really have a clue. It may not have been the "Wild West", but there were a number of blocks between Bergen and Sackett that were completely desolate at night, and many vacant storefronts. I'm a woman, and I didn't walk down those blocks myself after dark -- I stuck to Court St. even if it was out of the way.

By the way, the first restaurant I remember opening there was Sur, an Argentinian steakhouse -- we all thought it was so odd to have a "fancy" restaurant in what seemed the middle of nowhere. Patois may have opened around the same time, but I had one visit with really snotty service (and I'm a very nice customer) and never went back.

Posted by: guest at July 9, 2008 1:11 PM

The old Food Co-op space on Cortelyou Road is available. They should look into opening a place there. I for one would welcome them out in this neck of the woods.

Posted by: guest at July 9, 2008 1:20 PM

1:05=Harding/Mamary

Posted by: guest at July 9, 2008 1:24 PM

Patois was revolutionary when it opened - not just for Smith but for Brooklyn as a whole and back then the food was very good.

Pre-Patois your choices (in that demographic) were - Henry's End, Bouillabaisse (w/ about 6 tables) and Noodle Pudding - thats more or less it in a boro of 2M.

Unfortunately as the culinary scene in Brooklyn improves, Patois' food and service declined inversely.

Posted by: guest at July 9, 2008 1:32 PM

Come to Jersey City. We have new restaurants opening every few months and it's looking good these days. Get a spot on Newark Avenue before they do the improvement and lock in a low lease.

Posted by: guest at July 9, 2008 1:37 PM

I live right down the street from Pomme de Terre, and I have to say thanks to these two guys for putting Newkirk Avenue on the map. I now have a nice restaurant to eat at when I don't feel like cooking at home.

It's wonderful to see neighbors of all ages enjoying a night out without having to leave the neighborhood.

Posted by: guest at July 9, 2008 1:38 PM

i agree with Carol Gardens. maybe the stinky folks will try their hands next w/ a restaurant.

Posted by: guest at July 9, 2008 2:06 PM

the first 1:05 here,
First, where I think those guys probably read this stuff, i doubt they would respond, and if they did, they would probably do it without being anonymous.I am not a cheerleader for them, I am simply a local business owner who can appreciate someone doing what they want with their lives. I dont eat at all their restaurants, hated Schnack and Pioneer, havent eaten at Patois in years, and I dont eat seafood, not to mention I knew the original owners of the Sweetwater Tavern, and cant say i love whats been done with that, however there are places they own I do like, and I can applaud their efforts as successful, local business owners. Consistency isnt easy in the restaurant business, especially when you own many (and again, I dont eat at many of the places they own, so i cant speak to the quality of all of them,), I just think there are alot of bitter people here that find it easy to criticize. Again, if the food was across the boards horrible, these places wouldnt exist.
1:24, how about adding something to the conversation than those stupid, tired "equation" things that dont say anything about anything.

Posted by: guest at July 9, 2008 2:14 PM

What I'd like to know is who are these a$$hole neighbors that are making their life so difficult?

I think it's only fair to list their addresses since the restaurateurs business addresses have been listed.

Posted by: guest at July 9, 2008 2:45 PM

"1:24, how about adding something to the conversation than those stupid, tired "equation" things that dont say anything about anything."

2:14=bitter local business owner

Posted by: guest at July 9, 2008 2:51 PM

Kingston Ave btwn Atlantic and Eastern Parkway is a perfect spot for these guys. The recently landmarked Crown Heights North has brought a ton of people into the area who are looking for a decent restaurant/bar and that strip has plenty of storefronts available at a good price.

Posted by: guest at July 9, 2008 2:58 PM

Please come to Brooklyn Heights...you will have zero competition

Posted by: guest at July 9, 2008 3:21 PM

3:21

Won't happen. Rent too high. Mamary and Harding are famous for only coming in if the rent is low. The Heights commercial RE failure is its inability to negotiate rents. This is why Montague is filled with either old timers or newcomers- chains, franchises, etc.

Spicy Pickle coming soon!

Posted by: guest at July 9, 2008 3:45 PM

they should open a gay bar!

Posted by: guest at July 9, 2008 3:58 PM

I had the worst restaurant meal I ever ate in Patois. Truly awful, made worse by the chef's attitude when I asked to have the nearly raw pork more fully cooked. He grubbed out the fig filling with his bare hands, threw the meat back on the fire for a minute and stuffed the same mushed fig back in. And he knew we were all watching. Then they charged full price for it. Complete with the snotty service.

Who eats there, really, and thinks it's good?

And Trout just smells...of not-so-fresh fish, appropriately. Now that I know they are responsible, it all makes sense.

Posted by: guest at July 9, 2008 4:11 PM

Washington Ave on the PH/CrH boarder needs these guys. You can get a hair weave on every block, but a decent meal is hard to come by...

Posted by: guest at July 9, 2008 4:43 PM

I Love BoCoCa and i love these places to eat. All of the places are very good. Sunday Brunch at Patios is incredible. for $12 you get a lot of food and drinks.

Posted by: guest at July 9, 2008 4:59 PM

"He grubbed out the fig filling with his bare hands, threw the meat back on the fire for a minute and stuffed the same mushed fig back in. And he knew we were all watching. Then they charged full price for it."

And you PAID for that? Sucker!!

Posted by: guest at July 9, 2008 5:04 PM

your fault for not appreciating rare meat...who in their right mind wants meat cooked all the way through?

Posted by: guest at July 9, 2008 5:52 PM

Patois is over rated. Last time I ate there in the back garden, there was a swarm of ants from a nearby plant and crawling all over table. I wanted to leave but my girl friend of sick of looking for a place to eat and we "settled" on this place. The garden chairs and tables are the cheapest and most uncomfortable crap I have ever sat and eaten at. The total experience with the so-so food and bad waiter not wanting to acknowledge that there are in fact ants all over the place cost us $110. The beer helped to salvage the horrible dining experience.

You won't see me going back there ever again & not because of the current things going on from this post but after reading so many other peoples bad experiences with this place and my own, why bother giving them my hard earned money? They should feel lucky that they already suckered us a total of about $1,300 from our total prior visits. I'll spend elsewhere.

Posted by: guest at July 9, 2008 6:12 PM

I thought Halcyon was there before Patois.

I'm one of the "ungrateful "theys"" alluded to in this sappy, unctuous, pretentious piece. I guess I'm a restless pioneer myself, hopping and skipping from Dean and Hoyt to Hoyt and Degraw and finally to Hoyt between Sackett and Union. I don't know about seeding but I got the city to plant a tree outside my house. This McNeil character could write quite a sappy piece about me and my neighbors, and you'd love us in his hands, you'd never call us numbies. We'd be salty characters with "gruff bravado" - "No, 1976 when I moved here wasn't that long ago."
"I was born in this house, in the 1950s, but that's okay" - what brave modesty!

I have one question, Why's Mammary applying for a liquor licence to sell oysters till 4.00 in the morning?

Posted by: guest at July 9, 2008 6:27 PM

6:27

You thought Halcyon was on Smith before Patois?
No.

Halcyon opened in 1999, then moved to DUMBO in 2004.
Patois opened 11 years ago and is still there.

Posted by: guest at July 9, 2008 7:47 PM

Boy, those two (Mamary/Harding) are really demented. They should be thanking the community who fought hard to get Smith Street Reconstructed in the 90's that started this whole craze. The same community they now thumb their noses at. Ingrates. Take your money and move on. The community won't miss you.

Posted by: guest at July 9, 2008 8:12 PM

I think it says it all that all the posters from PLG and Ditmas Park are begging these guys to open restaurants while those from Smith street are complaining about them. Let's be honest, the smith street people love the neighborhood because these guys brought the restaurants and now shame them because they are not as good as other places. While those who have no amenities like these are desperate for them to open more places. Classic. Does anyone know how hard it is to open one restaurant and have it break even after a year??? Manhattan is littered with restaurants that fail as is brooklyn. I think these guys should be congratulated for the success they have achieved. Again if you don't like the food or would rather spend more $$$ for better food that is one's choice, but obviously they have found a niche for their business given a great majority of their ventures have lived. To say these guys have not improved your nabe is just crap and to complain that they are chain restaurants is hilarious...get some perspective. The great majority of restaurants have owners that own many restaurants. There will always be better and worse food and restaurants will live and die by the food, service, and atmosphere....if you're looking for something better there will always be a place to go and these guys know that, but for the price and competition in the up an coming nabes these guys have done a remarkable job.

Posted by: guest at July 9, 2008 8:20 PM

4:11 I had exactly the same experience at Patois, only with raw fish! I very politely asked if they could cook it a bit more, and it came back looking like hell, as if the chef had destroyed it. Apparently we yokels who aren't fans of very raw food aren't deserving of common courtesy. And that's why, in the 9+ years of eating at Carroll Gardens restaurants since then, I never, ever went back. And I've had wonderful meals in other Smith St. restaurants where the attitude was far nicer. If I want to be treated badly, I can always go to Manhattan -- neighborhood dining shouldn't be a pretentious experience.

Posted by: guest at July 9, 2008 8:30 PM

Halcyon= run out of the neighborhood

Posted by: guest at July 9, 2008 8:45 PM

brooklyn stinky,

Posted by: guest at July 9, 2008 11:15 PM

these guys were terribly influential in building up smith street, but it's true, their places simply do not hold a candle to the empires created by the chefs in williamsburg. diner is still just amazing all these years later, and the quality put out by the bonita staff is outstanding for a restaurant serving mexican food.

sweetwater is inviting, but food wise, there a so many better places, that i simply don't even bother to consider it.

anyone on this site that has not been to the top williamsburg places really needs to go. dressler, aurora, fette seau, marlow and sons, diner, dumont, fornino, etc... these are just way way better than the b.s. bistro scene in brownstone brooklyn.

Posted by: guest at July 9, 2008 11:31 PM

11.31 i'll take the grocery, chestnut, lucali, saul, bocca lupa, ki sushi, etc over sitting next to a poseur in williamsburg. thank you very much

Posted by: guest at July 10, 2008 9:41 AM