Noise Annoys, Rugrat Edition

Heretofore has been playing with his home lobotomy set for too long now.

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 9:54 AM

I seem to recall that a lot of apartment buildings used to require a certain of amount of the space be carpeted to deal with exactly this sort of problem: noise from heavy footsteps. Does that not work with kids?

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 9:58 AM

I live below a couple with two small children and they do sound like little elephants running around in the mornings - but how angry can you get at a 3-year old? My neighbors are otherwise great and make a big effort to get the kids out of the house to the park or out for breakfast soon after they wake up on weekends ... and I've invested in industrial-strength earplugs. If you want to live in a city this dense, you have to learn to deal with noisiness - kids, stereos, traffic, sirens - if you can't deal, move to the suburbs!

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 10:06 AM

Hmmmm....I read that article too. As a baby boomer, I was part of a very large population of children. I grew up living in a four-room apt on the third floor of a two-family b'stone in CG. I was never allowed to do the following: never run up and down the stairs when coming in or leaving the house; never run back and forth in the apartment; never jump up and down on my parents' furniture or mattresses; never stomp on the grass in the front garden; never pull leaves from plants in the front garden; never swing on the front gate even though it was lots of fun; never run up and down the stoop two steps at a time or jump down from the third step to the bottom of the stoop. I was taught to be considerate of others (esp. the landlord) and respect other people's property. I turned out just fine. I think the members of the current baby-boomlet are given no boundaries and are being taught nothing except anything goes because you are a child. Unfortunate. I think it's that mind-set that fuels a lot of anti-children sentiment, but today's parents just don't get it.

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 10:11 AM

You should thank god for those pitter pattering feet - for they will be paying for you to sit around on your FAT ass during your 30yr subsidized retirement, (and if you stay in NY) ensure that you actually have some representation in Congress.

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 10:16 AM

10.11 - sounds like you had a great childhood

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 10:18 AM

I loved the modest proposal.

The article seemed to be on the side of the kids, but there the lameness of the parents still came through -- like when the mom told her kids to keep it down, the downstairs woman was sleeping at 8am and the kids were like, why? (and the woman and the writer could almost be seen nodding in agreement).

Hey-- 8AM is still early in the morning. It's New York where the workday starts at 10 and doesn't end til 8 or 9 or 10 at night. You may think 8 is not early. That's fine. But then, I have the right to think that 10PM is not late and crank up the stereo.

Signed, have two kids but remember life pre-kids.

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 10:19 AM

10:11 is right! Growing up, we were told that as children we were to be seen and not heard. Kids these days are told nothing! Complaining adults are told that the kids cannot help it, or "They're kids!" as if somehow that means they can do no wrong.

Well-behaved does not mean deprived of one's childhood. It simply means respecting others, and may actually better equip the kids for dealing with others well into adulthood.

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 10:28 AM

Carpeting or rugs (thick ones) with appropriate padding underneath (thick) does do a lot to muffle sound - though not completely - it does help a lot. Which is why it is required on 80% of flooring in your standard coop or rental lease.

The problem, as I see it, is a loss of the standards of politeness to others. It used to be the norm to be raised to notice when your behavior disturbed others - which is why these provisions were standard in leases. Now, I think younger parents (and some older ones) were raised to be much more self-indulgent. I know parents whose neighbors complain who refuse to put rugs or carpet and padding on the floors in the rooms the kids' noise emanates from. Why? Because they like their refinished wood floors. Because they don't like the fact that the neighbors complain. Because they don't have rude, noisy neighbors above them who keep them from sleeping, so they refuse to get that it is a problem, or if they do get it, they just don't care. I just don't get it. Or perhaps I do - these people I know are self-indulgent and just don't care. And it isn't just parents - childless adults who make noise on the floors they refuse to put rugs on also disturb neighbors.

I love kids. I also know they make noise, and that while all of it can't be stopped from disturbing the neighbors, some of it can be with appropriate measures like floor covering. I don't get why parents I know feel so put upon when asked by neighbors to help out with noise. Probably because some have little to no control over what their kids do due to their reluctance to teach them appropriate behavior (this has also changed since I was a kid - many parents have less control, don't teach their kids, and feel like they can't.) The problem stems largely from rude parents raising rude children, who grow up to be rude adults who disturb their neighbors even if they don't have children.

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 10:28 AM

10:16. Woo-hoo, I'm going to live to be 95!!!

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 10:28 AM

As a parent of a 2-year-old, I can tell you that not all of us are not considerate and we do our very best to keep our little guy's noise under control. So do most of our friends. Our downstair's neighbors complained about noise; we do our best to address it; they understand we are doing our best, and there are no more complaints/issues.

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 10:43 AM

I'll always be indebted to my high school history teacher, who, about two weeks prior to graduation, implored us to never consider renting anything other than a top-floor apartment. It's advice I have always tried to follow.

But for about five years I played that mantra in my head non-stop, as I lived underneath an enigmatic soul who seemed to love to rearrange furniture, often between midnight and 3 a.m.

I began by politely knocking on the door but she would never answer. I would ring the doorbell but she would not answer, even though I knew she was home. I was seriously miffed.

I finally left a sensitively written letter taped to her door, and she stopped smiling and saying hi to me when we would see each other at the mailbox. For a few years I couldn't understand why she was angry with me for letting her know that she was disturbing us. After she finally moved out, I found out why from the landlord.

She was almost deaf! (That also explained why she was always yelling on the phone and yelling at her visitors, and sometimes engaged in extremely personal/sensitive converstaions that we really would have preferred not to hear.)

But I also didn't feel guilty: She had broken the tile counters in both the kitchen and bath, smashed the glass shower door, broken the built-in mirrors, and somehow put giant holes in the plaster walls! Maybe it was anger management therapy.

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 10:44 AM

I have a toddler and yes he does make noise, but I agree with the posters that advocate parental control. I was raised to be respectful of others and my mom did not put up with temper tantrums, etc. I don't want to hear my child yelling, stomping and banging in the morning, so I certainly understand that others don't want to either. He can yell at the playground!

LP

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 10:45 AM

I have two cats and the guy below me could hear them pretty clearly. Kids would be a nightmare.

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 10:46 AM

Unfortunately for us 10:28 - probably so.

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 10:47 AM

Thanks to two toddlers and their less than accommodating parents I was woken up at 6:30 am, seven days a week, for almost 2 years. Running and screaming at the crack of dawn every day, and even the occasional indoor soccer game were commonplace. After a year I got them to put down carpet in some places but I had to threaten to sue first. The baby would still wake everyone up (everyone) several times a night by throwing its toys onto the parents bedroom's wooden floor - 9 feet above my head.

Bottom line - kids don't get special treatment and parents need to be reminded that they and their precious offspring need to abide by building rules, quiet hours and other inconveniences. Kids will be kids. But child birth isn't a license for inconsiderate behavior.

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 10:58 AM

I agree with much of what 10:28 said. I try very hard to teach my kids to be considerate of our landlord who lives below us. I don't feel "put upon", I just think it's what should be common decency. But let's not forget that covering 80% of a floor costs money. I moved in and had to purchase several rugs, which are not cheap, for my landlord's benefit. This on top of the unbelievably high rent I'm paying. I doubt anyone would refuse to cover wood floors to prevent noise if their complaining landlord or neighbor was willing to cover some of the cost of the rugs since they are for the neighbor's benefit.

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 10:58 AM

I find constant music far more annoying than intermittent kid noise.

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 11:02 AM

10:11
A-freakin-men. I too remember having limits set as a kid. Perhaps you should consider giving parenting classes in the Slope. Seriously.

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 11:04 AM

What I found strange about this article was the assertion that there are somehow more children in New York City than there used to be. Really? How is that possible? Families have always lived here. I grew up in a 15-story building in upper Manhattan, surrounded by other families on all sides, and we knew everything that was going on above and below us. We knew when the boys downstairs learned to walk, and when the older one developed a taste for Metallica. We knew the precise moment when the man upstairs from us lost his mind, due either to his divorce or to his drinking, we weren't sure. His bedroom was right above mine, and no amount of padding could muffle his late-night ranting and drunken, bitter cackling. Later, his college-age son moved in and put his speakers on the floor. His favorite album was the Dirty Dancing soundtrack. This really interfered with my SAT prep.

What I'm getting at here is that if you choose to live in stacked boxes with many other people, you're going to hear their noises. Sex, fighting, babies crying, toddlers stomping around (because really, they can't help it, it's true - they can only "help it" after about age 3 or 4), drunken ranting, teenage sparring, etcetera. What I felt from some of the commenters in this article was a sense of entitlement that is extremely distasteful. This is a city. Generations of people live here. People used to be even more crowded together here - swing by the Tenement Museum sometime for a sense of perspective. People who grew up here seem to be a lot more tolerant in general than newcomers, who seem to feel that life in the city should revolve around them, and should conform to their fantasies about Life In The Big Apple. I just wanted to tell some of those people to get over themselves. And I hope others will be more tolerant towards them when they have children, who are not predictable or controllable little creatures, especially when very small.

I don't have kids yet. But I like hearing them running around above me, because it gives a comforting sense of life all around. What I don't like are leafblowers (tons of them on my Brooklyn block! What is this, Jersey?!), ice cream truck jingles, idling Access-A-Ride vehicles, and the goddamned weedwhacker that someone's been wielding across the street from me for, I kid you not, the past hour. Those things are disruptive. Kids are just kids.

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 11:05 AM

The issue IS NOT kids being loud, IT'S about developers being cheap and inconsiderate by using the lowest of the low materials in order to meet code for buildings.

Using party walls made of metal studs and one layer of sheetrock or if you're lucky two layers of sheetrock (which is still crap) instead of using masonry and then party walls on either side. Using 1/8" cork underlayment under the hardwood floors instead of flooting the floor a couple inches off the concrete floors or using 1/2" rubber mats and 3/4" "SoundEater" underlayments and then putting the woodfloors on top. Also, finishing the ceilings and using mineral wool between bats and using 50 year chalk or (green glue if you want to spend more money for the samething) when layering sheetrock.

People will buy it if the stupid developers would build it, especially in 2bed/2bath or bigger units meant for families. Hell, what is an extra $60,000 or even an extra $120,000 on a condo that already costs $1.4 million?

Don't blame the kids, it's the cheap ass developers and the cheap ass, no talent construction company.

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 11:08 AM

I agree with 10:28, except that... the examples from the article were mainly of parents who DID take considerate measures like limiting the kids' activity and putting down floor coverings, yet STILL got complaints from the downstairs neighbors.

Consideration is a two-way street. It also requires acknowledging that if you live in a densely populated city, other people (inculding kids) will inconvenience you.

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 11:10 AM

These are the problems of common people living in condos and coops. Grow up and buy yourself a real house. Problem solved.

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 11:12 AM

11:05 again...I meant to also add that of course it's important for parents to teach consideration to their kids as early as possible. It should be common sense not to let your kids scream, jump up and down, and play hallway soccer at 6:30 am. I'm pretty sure I knew better than to make much noise before 8 am in our tigh-packed apartment building. But there are some people who really have a sense of entitlement about so many things, and believe that all things can be controlled. Beyond a certain level of consideration, you just can't expect too much from toddlers.

One very simple solution to apartment noise: remove your shoes upon entering your home. It cuts way back on noise, and in addition, your house will be much cleaner.

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 11:14 AM

I see these young mothers with one or two little ones in tow, walking here, walking there, carrying, cajouling, looking exasperated and tired.
It seems to me that their counterparts in the burbs have it easier. You strap the kids into the SUV and you're off and away. At home, they can yell and stomp to their hearts delight in the backyard or the basement. Raising kids in the city, especially with today's prices and over-crowding, is a little insane. I hope that we are experiencing just a trend and that in another few years the younger parents will get a clue and move somewhere cheaper, roomier, and more kid-friendly. A brownstone is OK as long as you have the whole thing, but trying to raise kids after the age of two or three in an apartment sucks, especially a walk-up apartment!

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 11:15 AM

10:18: I'm 10:11...As I said in my post, I turned out fine. I didn't have a deprived childhood because I wasn't allowed to do certain things or because I was raised with a certain type of discipline. That's plain silly to even think that way. I played outside on the sidewalk, like all of us kids did at the time, or played hop-scotch or stoop ball in friend's front yards...whose parents were fortunate enough to own their homes. I had a great childhood and cherish the memories.

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 11:21 AM

10:11 and 10:28 nailed. Its about parents who do not properly discipline their children and an overall sense of entitlement. Sam thing that stokes the anti-ps threads.

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 11:24 AM

Whenever issues like this come up people blame it on parents who are trying to bring suburban lifestyles and attitudes to the city. But it sounds like a lot of single people in the new New York have the same problem.

If you move into an NYC apartment and expect not to hear noise from kids, or people moving furniture, or the old guy with his TV cranked up, or the young college grads having a party--maybe city life is not for you.

I think part of NYC's problem is that as it's become safer and more attractive to people who--20 years ago--never would have lived here, you now have a breed of "New Yorkers" with unreasonable expectations of city life. And that includes the people without kids.

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 11:25 AM

Is there anyone here that understands the difference between entitlement and self-entitlement. What a shower of dimwits.

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 11:33 AM

What a bunch of kid haters. Noise is a fact of life in a big city. It seems to me the entitled ones are the singles or childless couples from the suburbs and realizing that their high priced apartment is less soundproofed than their cheap unit from suburbia.

You are going to hear noise, even in a soundproofed unit. In order to soundproof correctly, you have to adhere to building a "room within a room" construction method. But, people don't want to since they already have a tiny apartment and have no wish making it smaller. That is one reason why people like older buildings with higher ceilings so that you can raise the floors and drop the ceilings for soundproofing.

-carpenter

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 11:36 AM

11:24--

There's plenty of entitlement to go around on this issue.

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 11:36 AM

I live in a typical older multiple dwelling with wooden floors. The noise from upstairs was pretty bad. When I renovated, I pulled down the ceilings (it wasn't hard, they almost came down by themselves) and put in thick insulation between all the joist then I hung the new ceiling from straps rather than nailing it directly to the joists. The noise was cut down almost completely. an incredible difference. I skim coated and added crown moldings and no one could guess it is a new ceiling.
You cannot change people's behavior, change your ceiling instead.

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 11:40 AM

You know what I love....that none of the people who get so upset over the noise (my) kids make, have the balls to do anything about it, except perhaps whine on a message board.

But if any of you pu$$ies had any guts to say anything to me - I'll give you my response now - Go f yourself! If the noise isnt bothering me (and I'm in the apartment with them) then you're just going to have to live with it - and there isnt a damn thing you can do about it - except perhaps sell me your apartment so I can expand a bit.

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 11:46 AM

of course noise is expected in crowded inner cities, that is not the issue. The amount and frequency of noise is the issue. Just because we live here doesnt mean that we consent to unabated hollering/hootimg/stomping/rap/crying/whateverelse.

I've been here in excess of 20 years, so dont be so quick to say its newcomers with unrealistic expectations. Again, it all comes down to being considerate of others. If we all thought that noise should be the norm, then none of us would ever get any sleep. I could just blast my music, use my speaker-phone, and crank up my music and television at all hours. I think that would end up hurting the people with kids more.

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 11:50 AM

11:46, you are lucky that I dont live there. I'd make you buy earplugs for yourself and all of your uncontrolled brats! You'd be buying carpet to drown ME out! LOL, what a buffoon.

We all have the ability to make noise. Dont force us to use it . . .

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 11:53 AM

actually, there are a lot more kids in the city than there used to be.

something like 40% more under-5yos than just 10 years ago. more people used to move to suburbs than now.

i know everyone thinks that it's JUST like it was when they were a kid, but it's not.

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 11:56 AM

Wear earplugs at to bed and get a loud A/C in summer for white noise. Also get to know your upstairs neighbor, since in my experience the noise made by strangers is harder on the nerves than that made by people you're familiar with (dunno why).

My own "modest proposal".

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 11:59 AM

I'm 10:28 - and I didn't mean to imply that some parents aren't considerate or that all feel put upon - what I was commenting on are the ones I know who AREN'T considerate and do feel put upon, and my surprise at that.

And money was no object to my friends in buying floor coverings. And shouldn't be for most people anyway - you can always buy very nice quality, clean, cheap used rugs from folks who are moving on Cragislist. You could just as easily say - "trash cans and trash bags cost money, so I think I'll throw my garbage out the window." There are many ways in which we have to spend money to comply with laws and contracts - it's part of living in society rather than as a hermit.

I had to laugh at the part where the kid asks his mom about the downstairs neighbor "Why is she sleeping?" The kid of a friend asked me the same question - I explained to her that not everyone gets up really early in the morning as she does. She looked at me quizically and thoughtfully the way toddlers do when assimilating new information that never occured to them before. (I do think some sleep-deprived parents somewhat resent that they can no longer ever, ever sleep in - hell, just sleep through a night. Some have told they resent their neighbors who can. That's natural, to an extent, but leads sometimes to their not being terrribly understanding of those who still can, or still could if not awakened by neighbors.)

I have lived below kids a few times - their parents were fine about doing what they could, and it wasn't terribly noisy and all was fine. By far the worst, most sleep disturbing neighbors I have ever had have been people, singles and couples, with no kids.

I agree taking off shoes when entering an apartment is the single best noise preventer (from adults footsteps anyway) - but taking off the shoes late at night and throwing them on the floor one at a time in the bedroom just above a sleeping neighbor - as was my nightly routine with one 20-something entitled rich b**ch whose parents bought her the apartment above (the coop learned the hard way, through a series of incidents not related to noise, why some coops frown on such purchasers) - is not the way to remove the shoes! (Hence the origin of the phrase "waiting for the other shoe to fall..")

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 12:00 PM

Bigger noise problem is Union Hall and all those bars with backyards open late and disturbing people that keep working hours.

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 12:02 PM

twenty years ago the kids you would see in the city were usually the really poor kids and the rich private school kids. Now, the middle class has somehow decided (I think it isn't a great idea) to pretend they are rich, send their kids to $30,000-a-year elementary schools, and cram themselves and their ever-expanding belongings into modest apartments that were deigned for elegance over function. Insane. These people are affluent, they could have tons of space anywhere else.
I agree with the poster that hopes this is just a passing trend. It is too illogical to be anything else.

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 12:04 PM

Yeah, I am rather sensitive to noise, so I prefer top floor apartments when looking, and I also check out the backyard areas to look for bars and restaurants, especially ones with backyards. I also avoid restaurant fans - had a friend in Manhattan who was kept awake by a very powerful, noisy restaurant fan outside the window of her studio apartment.

That's one reason I like Brooklyn livign better - it's more residential, thus easier to find an apartment on a quiet street with nothing commercial out back. Of course if something opens up back there after you move in, you're out of luck. And no, I've never lived in a suburb, I'm a city person. I just recognize there are apartments that are noisier than others, and have learned this the hard way.

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 12:12 PM

12:04 - yes lets all hope that middle class people with children in NYC is a passing trend - the sooner we can revert to a completely stratified society with as few children as possible the quicker we can have all the crime, misery and problems that used to make NYC so much fun.

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 12:12 PM

I dont know why this is so controversial. I moved to the city so I could have some peace and quiet and respite from all the early morning lawn mowers, leaf blowers, bouncing basketballs and driveway mechanics in the suburbs - and of course the minute I move to the city - obviously expecting peace and quiet - the kids and the noise seemed to follow me here.

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 12:16 PM

12:04, that's not the least bit true. This used to be a much more middle-class, middle everything city. When I was a kid here twenty years ago, my extremely middle-everything family could afford to live in a big old apartment building, full of other families like us and also old German Jews who looked out for/yelled at us when we played outside. We were of modest means, and so were all of my friends in the neighborhood. Now, all of that is gone. Only the very wealthy can afford to live in many parts of the city, a subject that has been covered exhaustively elsewhere. Besides, what does that have to do with the stompity-stomp of little feet? Kids make the same amount of noise no matter how much money their parents make.

We were taught to be considerate of everyone around us, and the kids around me now seem to be taught the same in my very middle-class part of Brooklyn. It's adults who are the problem. Someone in the building next door to mine plays mariachi music at ear-crushing volume, at 3 in the morning, a few nights a week in the summer. Someday someone's gonna hurt that guy. And the woman next door has an ancient air conditioner that sounds like a jet engine. She also screams and curses horribly at her kids every morning. I'll take kid's-play noise over that any day.

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 12:16 PM

the people who live above my friend in bushwick must have 10 kids. Its pretty hilarious listening to them sometimes.

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 12:17 PM

12:04 thanks for elucidating the real problem! we don't mind when poor people have to suffer through poor kid noise. but please let us not force the rich to suffer through the squalling of middle-class spawn!

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 12:18 PM

Ahh the wealthy and children - the only permitted classes of people we can still 'hate' -

Personally I find the spicks sitting out front with their car radios at 100db alot more annoying than pitter-patter of toddler's feet - but I'm not allowed to say that anymore - Oh well -

"hey Kid = stop walking god damn you!!!"

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 12:21 PM

I just wish all these new middle class parents would make a lot of noise to the city politicians and DEMAND better construction codes and materials to address noise issues.

I think just about everybody would be happy with that, well except the nimbys of course.

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 12:21 PM

12:16 (the first time stamp)

Best post ever!!

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 12:23 PM

live in brand new, supposedly "bad" by brownstoner standards, steel beam condo, and guess what?? it's totally quiet! have a toddler right above me that in a year and half, have not heard even once!

pre-war, whatever... last time i lived in one, me and the downstairs neighbor were totally at war over noise. not worth it.

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 12:23 PM

It ISN'T a passing trend - everything about oil (price, running out eventually) points to the fact that carless city living is the way of the future.

People like it for other reasons, too - that's why people are choosing to stay in the city, and why prices keep going up in NYC while falling almost everywhere else.

There's nothing wrong with living in less space. The traditional suburban house used to be more the size of a decent-sized two-bedroom apartment anyway. Now the average new surbaban house is more space than most people even use - lots of empty space to gather dust.

The elegant old apartments and cut-up houses aren't bad when retrofitted with closets and built-ins to accomodate modern living. And many of these affluent city folk still aspire to have a country house as well - where some of the stuff gets stashed. And they are affluent - they (we) call ourselves middle class because it costs so much more to have an upper-middle-class-like existence in NYC than elsewhere, but the money the buyers have at current real estate prices and rents is certainly plentiful enough to term these people affluent.

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 12:23 PM

The problem isn't raising kids in the city, the problem are these tasteless new money upper middle class suburbanites who have absolutely NO CONCEPT of behavior or manners for their kids. The worst are the people from California who are all, "you can't crib my kid's self-expression; if he wants to fart in your face, that's his right!"

So many of these parents have no concept of space or other people whatsoever. They were all raised in depopulated areas like the Midwest or the South or the West Coast where they never grew up with having to mind other people. So when they decide to raise their kids in the city, Brooklyn, wherever, they DO NOT UNDERSTAND how to raise kids in heavily populated areas.

My solution: learn how to raise kids in a population-dense area, move to the fucking suburbs, or go back to your fucking Midwest backwater.

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 12:27 PM

12:27

Or you can move out loser.

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 12:28 PM

12:27 - do you have an impacted stool? prune juice might help. good luck!

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 12:28 PM

So is it inappropriate to ask an upstairs neighbor to ask them to keep their 3-year-old kid from running around from 530am to 7am on Saturday & Sunday mornings? We are up at 4am on weekdays & are very sensitive about our neighbors below, but the running around & stomping from above seems inappropriate before 7am on a Sat/Sun. Any thoughts...we do not blame the kid, she is only 3.

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 12:30 PM

Did any of you retards even read the f'ing article? While I know it doesnt fit into your NIMBY, everything old is good- everything new is bad Agenda - but the article (CORRECTLY) cites PRE_WAR construction in smaller buildings (read = BROWNSTONES) as having horrible noise characteristics.

Quote - from the article "“Any building that has a wood beam floor construction” — which includes most prewar buildings up to six stories tall — “is going to be more prone to these problems,” said Mr. Hauenstein, the acoustics expert. And even high-rise prewar buildings, with masonry floors, don’t necessarily live up to their reputation for being quiet. The insulation, which resembles ashy debris, can settle over time, and contractors sometimes remove it by mistake during renovation."

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 12:32 PM

The midwest is not depopulated. It has cities. I was raised in one, and taught to be considerate.

They know, they just don't care. Sometimes they don't want to curb the kid's expression; sometimes they are just lazy about it; sometimes they just don't like someone telling them what to do. It is the parents attitude that sometimes needs adjustment - I don't blame it on the kids.

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 12:32 PM

Oh yeah, and NYC 20-30, 40, 50, 60, etc. years ago was mostly a middle class/working class city. It wasn't just poor people and rich people ... it was basically a totally mixed economic environment.

When things got bad the middle class left to Jersey and Long Island. My neighborhood in Jersey was full of kids fresh from Brooklyn.

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 12:33 PM

You have to get in there and set the rules early on when you move in. I live next door from a very jumpy 3 year old boy. The boy was super quiet as a baby (no crying) but as he grew up, he started jumping up and down. This does not work well in a wood beam structure building.

The neighbor is a nice guy, we go next door and ask our neighbors to either take the boy outside for a walk or make him stop jumping. It is quite disturbing to hear a thud and have the floor shake every 10 minutes if not less. It is alarming, and really does not induce relaxation after a hard day at work.

I feel like in the past, adults/parents would not put up with this kind of behavior. It seems that now people don't want to tell their children what to do, fearing that they are not letting their children "be themselves". I don't find this a great excuse, or a great way to rear children.

I never walk in my apartment with shoes because I respect my downstairs neighbors (having lived below a woman who walked around the apartment in high heels all the time). I love loud music, I don't play it loud everyday. If I wanted to "be myself" I would play it everyday.

Parents should get a grip and realize that their children they so glorify are not glorified by their neighbors. Also, some mothers walk around the streets expected to be treated like queens with their babies. They block the sidewalk, expect to be allowed to pass ahead of you with their bulky strollers. Just because you have a baby, it doesn't make you special. It was your choice to have a child after all, not something forced upon you. So live with it and face the responsibilities that come with it. It smacks of a sense of entitlement to do otherwise. Train your monkeys! Respect your neighbors!

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 12:34 PM

12:30 - have you tried talking to your neighbors? Asked them to keep their kids in areas not above your bedroom when they wake up early (if their apartment is big enough?) They may have to child-latch the door to keep the kids out of some rooms. Good luck.

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 12:36 PM

there were 1.5 billion people on this planet in 1908. Now there are almost 7 billion. Let's keep having children and let them do whatever they want to do.

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 12:48 PM

Except for Jewish families, Gays, and a few eccentric left-over communists and artists, there was practically no middle class in the areas we so lovingly call "browstone brooklyn" in the 1970's & 80's.
In those days it was the "inner city" read "hellhole".
Period.
Next question?

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 12:48 PM

The issue is NOT developers being cheap (we're talking about prewar buildings here) it IS about kids being loud--and self-righteous breeders not parenting.They need to teach their kids to be considerate of others--an impossible task seeing as the "parents" never learned it themselves.

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 12:51 PM

I grew up in a rural area and we were not allowed to run and jump in our house. There were indoor activities and outdoors ones. We were not allowed to yell inside either. We didn't wear shoes in the house, either. My husband had the same upbringing- we both grew up in detached houses with lots of land so it wasn't about disturbing anybody else. It seems our parents had the crazy idea that if we taught to behave properly indoors at home that we'd behave in a way that doesn't disturb others in more public settings like stores, restaurants and church.

I see kids practically climbing the walls and running table to table at restaurants, pulling stuff off shelves at stores and the parents say nothing. I think it has everything to do with the fact that these kids are allowed to behave as they please at home. They don't respect anything because they aren't being taught anything by parents who don't respect anyone else.

Lest you think our "creativity" and ability to "express ourselves" was compromised by our upbringing, I can tell you that we've both been working in creative fields for 15-20 yrs after going to design school. Kids would be able to survive in the world better if taught enough manners to make them aware of others. In the end, that respect of others will make them pleasant to be around and easy to work with. It's the best lesson any parent can teach and it starts AT HOME.

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 12:57 PM

12:48 - you're offbase - I moved to brownstone brooklyn at the beginning of the 80's and the gentrification that had already been going on for quite awhile then proceeded to take off with the conversion of lots and lots of rental buildings (brownstone and larger) to coops.

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 12:59 PM

Pre-war, wood-floored buildings are very noisy. You have to do your own sound-proofing.
Old fire-proof buildings like the old factories in DUMBO were built solid as a rock. You cannot hear anything through the floors in those concrete-floored buildings.
But if you open a window the roar from every major highway in Brooklyn will waft in.

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 1:00 PM

Lets see according to the Brownstoner/Dr. Spock handbook - Parents are self-absorbed, entitled jerks if their children

Dare use a stroller the minute they are capable of walking.

Their children dare make any noise that disturbs their neighbors

Take their children to a restaurant or other retail establishment and they exhibit any behavior that is even noticed by others

- I am sure that I am missing some things but even with the above list - it seems that essentially according to the brownstoner wisdom - having children at all = you are a jerk.

I am fine with that BTW - please however remit all future Social Security, Medicare or other such 'ENTITLEMENTS' back to the 'children' who will be working to support you.

and 12:48 - you are an idiot - the vast majority of families in NYC (and most other urban areas) contribute nothing to global population growth - in fact the level of childbirths wouldnt even sustain the population.

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 1:02 PM

12:57

No, jackhammers are not as annoying as loud and constant and intermittent "thuds" from hard walking feet.

The people that complain about noise are ridiculous if they own. If I have enough to spend around $1 million, I have enough to spend on soundproofing. But, luckily I had enough know how to do it myself. If you ever put up a wall, then you can do this on your own. The only thing is it will take a few weeks as opposed to a couple days if you hire. But, you will save $30,000.

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 1:04 PM

12:57 - while I am sure you anecdote happened to someone, somewhere - you (and all these other self-righteous a$$es) are simply using infrequent anomalies to promote your anti-everything (that isnt ghetto, old or otherwise 'cool') agenda.

I dare you or your ilk to post, find or record a single video of any such behavior being demonstrated with the parents doing nothing to try to stop it.
This is the You-Tube age so, video or it didnt happen.

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 1:07 PM

I agree with you 12:57.

While I recognize that some people were never taught to be considerate, and then have no clue about how to teach their kids this, what baffles me is people who WERE taught to be considerate who refuse to teach this to their kids.

There is some wierd notion of parenting out there now that they have picked up which makes them want to let their kids express themselves however they want. (There are some things my parents did that were horrible that I would never advise anyone to do to kids, but I do recognize what they did right in teaching us.)

I think parents get their parenting ideas from other parents. When I comment on kids behavior to friends with kids, they reply that all the other parents they know are find with it, as if that makes inconsiderate behavior OK. Didn't their mothers tell them the old "if everyone else were to go jump in the lake would you follow..." What happened to setting your own independent standards? A polite kid is truly unusual and stands out in some playgrounds I've been to with friends....

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 1:07 PM

I think Brooklyn officially held inner-city hellhole status until about 1994-95. That's about the time the nice ladies and gents in bed and breakfasts and antique stores in Maine, Vermont, and Pennsylvania would look with astonishment at our checks and say "you actually live in Brooklyn?"
Some would actually volunteer that "they would not be caught dead there" etc etc.
That changed about ten years ago. Just sayin.
Now the more informed people out in the country actually think Brooklyn is sort of neat.

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 1:08 PM

How old are you people????

I am 39 and when I was kid, we were total jerk-offs - and our parents were either too busy trying to maintain their post-Vietnam, counter-culture image, or a decent lifestyle during the wonderful 70's or getting divorced to have any real control over us.
The vast majority of kids I see today are far better then we ever were - they have planned activities, are forced to work harder in school and are otherwise very focused on achievement and getting into a good college (probably to their detriment) to be able to be as loud, obnoxious or as difficult as we were.

Either you people are all 65+ or have a very distorted memory of the "good old days"

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 1:16 PM

I'm not 12:57, but I also see kids do this in restaurants and stores, and parents often do say nothing. They want to put their attention on something else, shopping, eating etc., and not on teaching their children at the same time.

I'm not one of the anti-kid people - I hate all this anti-stroller talk that I both read and hear. But I see this behavior (both from kids I know and kids I don't), and am appalled at their parents.

I do see others confront parents and tell them to teach these children (and I have made remarks to friends myself) - I find that the parents (or sometimes grandparents or sitter) react badly to being told that the child needs to be reined in a bit so as not to bother others or destroy property.

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 1:16 PM

12:36 - Will see where the conversation goes before we ask the parents to do that. That's a great idea except we can hear the 3-year-old when she's all over the apartment. I am not sure how the 3-year-old will feel about it though. The apartment we moved into was vacant for over a year - the parents did ask to give them a heads-up if it got too loud. We want to approach it "graciously" and we also feel, no matter how politely we ask, it's a sensitive topic. Thanks!

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 1:16 PM

I think the people complaining about disobedient middle (and upper) class kids being loud and ill behaved are right on. The problem is definetly the parents, they let their kids get away with anything.

If only these parents would take a lesson from the poorer black moms we all get to see at places Target etc.... When your kid acts up you have to yell and curse at them in a very loud voice, if that doesnt work call them names like "idiot" and "asshole" and finally when you get really frustrated it is time to beat the crap out of the little devil right there in public...

this firm parenting has clearly molded hard working, productive, well-behaved and articulate youth and should be a lesson to all.

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 1:21 PM

No, some of us were just raised by non-divorcing parents who didn't try to achieve a life-style beyond their means. Yes, that dates me - I'm ten years older than you. I worked hard to get into a good college (my attendance at which, I do agree with you, was probably to my detriment in many ways.)

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 1:21 PM

I've lived in Park Slope for about 17 years, and I can categorically say that the people who report constantly, or even frequently, seeing kids running around and screaming in restaurants, parents ramming pedestrians with strollers, etc., are full of sh_t. I'll see an egregious incident like this every once in a long while. Far more often I see people do their best to be respectful of others.

People either are (1) blowing up isolated incidents to advance their agenda, (2) exaggerating milder incidents either on purpose or because they're hypersensitive to them or (3) making sh_t up.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the kid whose California parents let him fart in people's faces as self-expression falls under category (3).

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 1:24 PM

1:21 pm

lol! Very funny! Though I think it might go right over peoples head. Nevertheless, you might be a closet racist. Your point could have been made without the black reference. Then, the readers (us) could have mentally pictured an abusive parent from our own memories.

Whatever, it's still funny.

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 1:27 PM

1.24pm (last paragraph)

Very funny! Keep them coming!

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 1:29 PM

1:21 - Your nerdy childhood not withstanding - you grew up in the 60's and 70's - were you so sheltered or are you already so senile to not be able to recall what "kids" were like then.

Arent you at all embarrassed (or at least upset) that you have become that person who says "kids today!!!", "when I was young....." etc.... obviously not realizing that it isnt kids (or parents) who are different - it is YOU. You have become OLD

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 1:31 PM

1:27 - the point could have been made without it, but I want my posts to match the judgmental generalizations that make everyone here so smug.

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 1:34 PM

sure, I'm older, but I don't say the things you suggest I do. (though I do very well remember what kids were like - they came in all varieties of behaving, just as they do today.)

and you think growing older is a fate you are somehow exempted from? get a clue...

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 1:38 PM

There are ways to teach kids to behave without being verbally or physically abusive. Really. They actually work better.

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 1:40 PM

"Except for Jewish families, Gays, and a few eccentric left-over communists and artists, there was practically no middle class in the areas we so lovingly call "browstone brooklyn" in the 1970's & 80's."

Wrong. There has long been and continues to be a solid black middle class in Crown Heights and Bed-Stuy, Clinton Hill and Fort Greene. But because most these people don't post on Brownstoner, and the media (including Brownstoner) prefers to focus on marauding black teen-agers as opposed to law-abiding, black middle class folks, you don't know anything about them.

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 1:41 PM

1:38 I am not exempted from getting old - but you can (until physical ailment prevents it) maintain an accurate picture of history (both personal as well as societal) and thereby not be the idiot that glorifies the "good old days" since they weren't and never were.

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 1:42 PM

As another NYC born and raised kid, i agree about the class issue. Once upon a time, middle class families could afford to live in the city. I grew up on the UWS, and except for those on Central Park West, lower Riverside Drive and West End Ave, all the kids were middle class. Our parents were teachers, therapists, government workers, computer programmers, accountants. And we all lived in rambling apartments, which were affordable. We had friends in brooklyn, and except for a few in Brooklyn heights, most were also middle class. Not anymore. The families that are now moving into those apartments are not middle class by any means. No way that my family or the families of my friends could ever afford to live in the city today.

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 1:47 PM

1:24 - I totally agree that the stroller ramming stories are infrequent, made up, or slight accidents blown out of proportion.

But it is my opinion that many kids aren't taught to behave even reasonably well in restaurants and stores.

I don't have an anti-kid or anti-Slope agenda, and hate reading from those who do. I like interacting with kids and am not hypersensitive to what they do - I know they have limitations in their capabilities. But opinions do differ - even from reasonable, non-haters. Recognize that.

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 1:51 PM

1:51 - video or it didnt happen

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 1:55 PM

@1:16 (the 39-year-old). My brother or my sister, you speak truth to power. I'm also 39. We, Gen X, have been categorized by the media as "the most ignored generation in American history" (Maybe so. I sure do know a lot of people our age who pretty much raised themselves while their parents were off getting self actualized). Say what you will about us, but we make good parents. I have a kid. She is charming and delightful and doesn't jump on the furniture. She does act like a 3-year-old (but since she's 3, this is to be expected). The parents I know are devoted to their marriages and their children, teach manners and boundaries, and take the job of parenting seriously.

The absolute worst noise experience I ever had was living under a violinist who decided to "renovate" her apartment (this was in a converted Brownstone, rental) by pulling up layers and layers of linoleum and carpet (looking for hardwood) until she reached the subfloor, at which point she decided she didn't have enough money to finish. So she just clomped around ON THE SUBFLOOR, practiced scales for 12 hours a day, and had band practice. When I asked her to please stop so I could put my infant to sleep, she said no. She had until 10pm to play, by law. We moved. Life's too short.

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 2:10 PM

While I have no trouble believing that there are some really entitled parents out there, I've really never seen them among my peers and neighbors. Actually, I usually see people being too controlling with their kids. The over-scheduling and over-parenting is sad. I hope to be a little less overbearing when I have kids.

The only mom I've seen acting like an entitled jerk was an Orthodox Jewish lady with eight children, who cut into a very long security line for an early morning flight at JFK. When I confronted her about it, her excuse was that she had already been on line, but that she and her brood had stepped out of it to buy some magazines. She told me that because she has eight kids, she could step into the line wherever she wanted to. She felt completely entitled to cut in front of at least forty people, because she'd whelped out eight little ones in rapid succession. Well, a cockroach can do that, too. And lest I be accused of anti-Semitism, let me stress that my ancestors were Hasidim. Having that many kids is environmentally irresponsible, acting like it makes you special is obnoxious. She ended up having to wait in line longer than anyone else in the end, because of all the kids and their attendant baggage. But, in defense of the actual children, they were perfectly fine. It was Mameleh who misbehaved that day.

West End Avenue kid from the 70's and 80's raising hand here - we were very middle-class on WEA too, 1:47. My dad was an electrician and my mom a social worker. It was a very different neighborhood back then. I miss it. It was nice. Nothing but pleasant memories.

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 2:17 PM

To the ass that suggested that I videotape other people's children behaving badly in public places "This is the You-Tube age so, video or it didnt happen" my blackberry doesn't have a camera and that is a sure fire way to get some mom to call the cops on you if she sees you taping her kid. Totally qualifies as creepy behavior, not to mention being pretty freaking rude in and of itself.

I'm 43 not 65 and my parents liked their Rolling Stones but were not counterculture freaks, not divorced and not unaware of what we were doing. Sorry some of you had such a crappy childhood.

And we weren't perfect kids but the difference is that if we had a tantrum or tested the boundries in public places, we had one chance to behave or we were removed from that place immediately. I do see parents "trying" but reasoning with a young child as if an adult doesn't often work. If we were of an age if our normal baby/toddler behavior may not be good for the setting, then we were not taken to places like restaurants that catered more to adults. As we reached an age of being able to be reasoned with, we got "do that again and we are leaving" and then we left if we persisted. It only took once or twice to realize my parents were serious and we learned to behave. What I see as trying is a lot of empty threats or kids being in places that aren't meant for kids and either not supervised well or so clearly out of their element that they can't possibly behave. Not really fair to the kid or the people around him. There wouldn't have been such a long blog post about kids in bars in Park Slope if it wasn't happening.

I'm not anti kid -have many nephews/nieces and friends kids who are cute, smart, funny and delightful. They misbehave too but it isn't allowed to persist in public or at home without consequences.

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 2:26 PM

Whoa! Reading this thread has made me thirst for a beer.

Into the double-wide kids. Please point out the old kid-hating plodders and the other miserable, wormy losers (just like we practiced). Ramming speed!

And ... here we are, Candy-Ass Central, the bar. Get daddy a beer and then go knock some things off those shelves over there. But be careful not to get caught on video.

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 2:32 PM

Park Slope Liberal for ya:

"If only these parents would take a lesson from the poorer black moms we all get to see at places Target etc.... When your kid acts up you have to yell and curse at them in a very loud voice, if that doesnt work call them names like "idiot" and "asshole" and finally when you get really frustrated it is time to beat the crap out of the little devil right there in public..."

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 2:34 PM

No one cares about your (unreliable) anecdotes; No one cares about how good your parents were (or you mistakenly think they were); and for sure no one cares about your nieces and nephews.

Old people have been complaining about the 'younger generation' for all of history - and actually unlike other periods of history - in terms of societal norms the last 40 years or so have actually been pretty stagnate (moving to more conservative) - so the only logical conclusion isn't that people have changed - its that you have gotten OLD.

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 2:41 PM

2.17, like an earlier poster pointed out, when you say "entitled" you are meaning the exact opposite of what you intend to say.

If they are entitled, then no one can complain, it's their due, their right. You mean self-entitled, which is something completely different.

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 2:43 PM

1:51--

I agree that opinions do differ. But facts and events do not. Something either happened or it didn't. And the overblown stories I read every time this topic comes up don 't come close to matching what I've seen with my own eyes living in Brooklyn for so years. And others are so generic that I'm certain they're nothing more than composites of things people have read in other blog threads like this one. I think that's why you get comments like "video or it didn't happen"--these claims are so obviously trumped-up that someone has to call B.S. on them.

By the way, I say all this as a parent who's stricter than most of the Brooklyn parents I know--and I agree that wishy-washy parenting and empty threats only encourage bad behavior. That said, the brownstone Brooklyn I always read described on blogs nowadays looks nothing like the one I actually live in.

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 2:43 PM

Um, if apartments aren't built to accommodate normal living practices such as sleeping and/or walking -- shouldn't you be angry at the LANDLORD, not the neighbors? Or if landlords somehow are not responsible for their buildings, how about the building code?

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 2:43 PM

I'll take a misbehaving 3 year old over an intolerant, childless 30 year old any day. Why shouldn't kids act like kids?

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 2:52 PM

1:42 Stick to the argument. We are talking about people with children with and without manners. We are not using this post to attack older people. I am 28 it is clear to me that you have absolutely no manners. The person was comparing her exprience with what she observes today. What is wrong with that? Who is to say that this observation is wrong or right. Are here any studies? No. Do you have a better argument than "you are old and senile"? No. Nothing warrants your crass comments below.

"1:21 - Your nerdy childhood not withstanding - you grew up in the 60's and 70's - were you so sheltered or are you already so senile to not be able to recall what "kids" were like then.

Arent you at all embarrassed (or at least upset) that you have become that person who says "kids today!!!", "when I was young....." etc.... obviously not realizing that it isnt kids (or parents) who are different - it is YOU. You have become OLD"

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 2:54 PM

"I'm not anti kid -have many nephews/nieces and friends kids who are cute, smart, funny and delightful..."

This is what always cracks me up about discussions like this. You can always count on someone who has "nieces and nephews" and therefore is an authority on raising kids.

It's like a man telling women how they should deal with sexism, because he has "a mother and sisters" and thus knows just what it's like.

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 3:00 PM

1:02, thanks for calling me an idiot, that really hurt! i am going to go cry now. like your fat baby cries when you let him do whatever you let him do.

They better pay my Social security, I pay for their schools!

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 3:10 PM

Well, I liked 2:26's post.

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 3:14 PM

i own a store in park slope and witness children behaving badly and parents doing NOTHING about it on a daily basis if not several times a day. i do have a videocamera, but choose not to end my business by making those videos public. look at what happened at union hall when they posted a "no strollers" sign. you would think that the parents were going to lynch the owners. more than half of the parents that i have witnessed either know nothing about disciplining their child or they are just plain inconsiderate. if you can't believe it's happening, i guess you just don't get out much or you are one of those asshole parents.

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 3:20 PM

2:52 - I'd also take a misbehaving 3 year old over an intolerant, childless 30 year old any day.

But I wouldn't automatically assume that a childless 30 year old is intolerant if they have a complaint. The childless 30 year olds I know are hoping to have kids soon!!

In asking "why shouldn't kids act like kids?" and assuming childless people are just intolerant makes it sound like you are one of those problem parents - the ones who think that whatever their kids do is OK, because, hey, that's what kids do. It isn't so.

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 3:22 PM

Haters!

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 3:32 PM

first parents start bringing babies into our bars, now they're bringing babies into our homes. the nerve. i hate people who like babies.

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 3:47 PM

heretofore is jonathan lethem!

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 3:51 PM

3:20 - you are a liar - how would anyone know from a grainy video of these 'horrible' parents that it was your store - or that you took the video.

keep trying though - maybe someone will believe you

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 4:02 PM

95% of all 311 complaints and quality of life issues would be SOLVED and be a non-issue if apartments, condos, co-ops, rentals - our homes were properly soundproofed.

And your resale value will be higher due to soundproofing.

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 4:06 PM

One observation I have, as a parent, (and human) is that it seems that today's NYC parents eat out more often then when I grew up (in the city). It was an occasion when my or my friend's parents took any of us to an "adult" restaurant/cafe. It was usually an event - someone's birthday, graduation etc. Once in a while they would get sitters and go out without us. It seems that today's young parents in the city eat out more, and therefore think nothing of taking their kids out with them more often. Anyone agree?

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 4:17 PM

Yes, sure, we all eat out more often. And in Park Slope and environs (the part I'm familiar with), most of the restaruants are accepting and accomodating of small children (the owners, waitstaff, and other diners). Most have those wooden high chairs, and will stash a stroller to two somewhere if there's no room for it near the table. They want the business, and there's kids all over all the time. Other diners often enjoy interacting with the kids seated near them.

It isn't the presence of kids that is a problem to most (I know, I know, there are some misanthropes to whom that is the problem, but I don't think they are a majority in these neighborhoods - they are just vocal on blogs). Actually, kids misbehaving isn't usually a problem for anyone anyway - execpt for the kids and parents involved. Some people have just pointed out that not all parents seem to be into teaching their kids to behave. It is those kids who are affected by this the most.

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 4:32 PM

4:17 - I dunno, maybe. But when I was little, my mom was in grad school and we ate out at the local cheapy Chinese restaurant on Broadway often. They took me to other places with them, as well. I was taught how to behave at restaurants, art openings, adult friends' parties, etcetera, and did so. So I'm not sure it happens more now.

All the kerfuffle over kids in bars strikes me as pretty silly, too. In Europe, many generations hang out at cafes and pubs together. It's pleasant. I hate the way life in America is so compartmentalized and atomized - I like hanging out with kids and with older people. Everyone has something to offer.

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 4:40 PM

4:17 These brawds today aint like mum.

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 4:44 PM

We've heard the Europe argument. Europeans are so much cooler than Americans for tolerating screaming brats in bars. But it has been determined that American grownups in American bars do not want American children in bars. So the European argument is now null and void. (however, a child with a cute European accent could have some monetary amusement value.)

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 4:47 PM

There is no excuse for modern parenting.
It is total chaos and "let the kid rule" mentality.
We shall see in the coming decade or two what kind of adults these coddled creatures make.

Kids need rules, they want rules, the acting up is a response to the absence of order and routine. Will these wild kids ever be able to study for a profesional exam? keep business meetings? do what the boss demands? Or will they be therapy lizards all their lives?

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 4:50 PM

Oh bull-Not having children doesn't mean I don't have eyes and ears. Frankly, it's not hard to see that letting your kid do whatever he wants really isn't that great for the kid in the long run. Having no kids doesn't mean I can't remember what how we were raised- not a idyllic situation but there were boundaries and rules. That bs that if you don't have kids you can't know what you are talking about is a big fat cop out to really addressing the fact that some people's kids are not pleasant to be around. It's not the kids fault- it's the parents. Every mom with a kid in a play group has plenty of stories about the mom who ignores some seriously bad behavior.

Two of our friends w/ 2 kids came to a recent wedding with their 4 week old in tow but not the 18 mo old because they knew the little one would most likely sleep where the older child couldn't be expected to behave in that setting. It would too much for any kid that age. They also knew if the baby really decided to wail, that they would leave. I don't need my own kids to know that just seems logical. They didn't need to be my friends-I could've just met them and seen they have common sense. I'm sure many parents have it but you don't notice their kids because they are not bugging anyone.

Awareness and respect start with who's in charge. The people with the annoying kids were probably the same ones with their dogs jumping all everyone, running away or pulling them down the street. It's not just non-owners that think that's rude. I have dogs and I do too.

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 4:53 PM

No European I know would let their children run around and act like a barabarian the way American parents do. American parenting is truly shocking.

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 5:00 PM

See, 4:47, that's just the thing. The kids in France were totally well-behaved. Just a couple of kids, after school, in the neighborhood place, drinking cocoa while the rest of us had a glass of wine. But what would you know about it? Only people barely out of their teens themselves refer to all children generically as "screaming brats". Really, I am so tired of all the people moving here from the 'burbs and thinking this entire place should revolve around their anemic idea of age-appropriate fun. The world would be a much less interesting place if everyone thought like you. And your children will, no doubt, be screaming brats, because that is what you will expect them to be, and you will likely treat them as such, whether they are or not. Sad.

Agree with 4:50, kids need rules. Good parents provide them. But keeping children out of all adult events, ever, doesn't train them to socialize properly.

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 5:01 PM

Really, 5:01?? You weren't in Abilene's on Saturday where a little blonde turd of a kid was jumping on tables and running around like a maniac. The dogs in the bar were more behaved than he was. And his parents were 'just having a glass of wine.' And you weren't in the Tea Lounge yesterday when some obnoxious brat was playing the Ms. Pacman machine in the back and yelling to his handler sitting halfway down the shop how high his score was.
Screaming. Yelling. Obnoxious. Sniveling. Brats.

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 5:13 PM

5:13, why would you hang out at Tea Lounge? That's Sinveling Central. Oh....

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 5:17 PM

5:13pm

You're an old, fat kid hater because you are a loser.

What's next, you're going to complain about the blue sky, the wet water, the dirty dirt, the barking dog, the loud thunder from the storm, and everything else that makes noise in the night?

Your problem is you don't interact with people on a social setting with "friends". You need those - now go out and make some.

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 5:25 PM

5:13: Here's a tip. If you are bothered by noise, don't frequent cafes that have f_cking MS PAC MAN MACHINES.

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 5:38 PM

"where a little blonde turd of a kid was jumping on tables..."

I call B.S.

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 5:40 PM

hey, this is the store owner with the video. you can believe it or not, but i work in the business 60+ hours a week and have to deal with the parents who refuse to parent their children. i have two children myself, under the age of 6, who are not angels by any means. however, i do discipline them and follow through with the consequences if they do not behave. we have left many an establishment to make sure we don't annoy everyone around us and to let them know who the parent is. i know and am friends with many parents who feel that i take a hard line attitude in regards to discipline, but my children want and need boundaries and direction. THEY ARE CHILDREN, NOT ADULTS.

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 5:57 PM

blonde kid. 100% factual. I don't make up stories on this thing to get in fights with other idiots. re: tea lounge, I expect kids. just making a point. other kids come in there and don't disturb anyone.

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 5:58 PM

I like kids. I used to be a kid.

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 6:00 PM

Hey 5:57pm

So, from the couple minutes that you see the parents with the kids at a little dive of a store you own, you are sure the type of parents they kids have that SPEND their MONEY at your store?

And, who gives a flying f&*k if a kid says in a little louder than normal voice to their friends or parents about something? God damn, you old ass piss ants need a life.

I don't have a kid yet but I am sure happy to see them in the streets and stores.

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 6:04 PM

They kid-haters are going to complain how short kids are and how they can't "look them in the eye" when talking to them.

rollseyes.

- I hate kid-haters, they deserve a good beating.

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 6:06 PM

What a delicious beer at the bar with my 3 kids!

Thank God my kids are French, eh? They are so quiet and well behaved, cute little Frenchies, drinking their tea.

But my other kids, they are Californian, like me. I never take them anywhere, the little hellions. I am telling you, they jump on tables and scream all the time, knock things off shevles, etc. They need boundaries and rules I guess, but I can't be bothered, because I am American, Californian too. And besides kids need to express themselves, I hear.

And we SHALL see in the coming decade or two what kind of adults these creatures will make. Just like us I bet. Just like all of us. Some haters, some early-onset blue hairs, some lovely people with with kids of their own, etc.

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 6:21 PM

this will shut us all up.

http://www.blognigger.com/2008/07/declaration-of-co-dependence.html

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 6:31 PM

Children should be eaten, not heard.

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 7:12 PM

I like to make noise. And im not even a child. It was actually one of my criteria on my home shopping list. I bought a semi detached house… There are apartment buildings on my block. There is street noise on my street. That was important to me. I hate feeling like I have to sneak around my own house. I hate the ‘threat” that some hyper vigilant crazy neighbor is going to start knocking on my door lecturing me about how morally righteous they are and how defective I am.

I feel sort of entitled to make noise. I planed for it. And I don’t do absurd things… but if im home I like to play music, and clean… maybe sing along while doing that…. and sure… if I feel like it re-arrange the furniture and talk loudly on the phone… and have friends over and laugh… and do jumping jacks…. And….Come to think of it… all of the fun things I do with myself require noise. Maybe kids are onto something. Maybe we would all be happier if we “ran” to the kitchen for a glass of water…. And skipped to the bathroom….

Oh- and I like to hear noise. I like the sound of voices and music on the street. I don’t mind the sound of footsteps… it reminds me of people. I like people. I like the way they sound even when it’s coo coo. And I live in a city with a lot of people. And a lot of noise so I guess that’s lucky for me. It has to suck really bad to live in some apartment building in NY and crave solitude and silence.

Posted by: guest at July 9, 2008 12:19 AM

you clearly have never lived below someone who stomps and jumps, when you have report back

Posted by: guest at July 9, 2008 10:25 AM