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July 14, 2008

House of the Day: 615 2nd Street

This house at 615 2nd Street in Park Slope will be a nice test for the upper end of the market. It's a big ole limestone (4,660 square feet) with lots of original detail that appears to be in excellent shape. (Our one quibble based on the photos is a kitchen that, while large, doesn't quite seem to match the high-end level of the rest of the house.) Which contributes to our wondering how this place will ever fetch the $3,495,000 asking price. Waddya think?
615 2nd Street [Brown Harris Stevens] GMAP P*Shark

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assuming the place does not need major renovations, this seems like a good price for a house of this size. I don't know how many people need that much square footage, though.

Posted by: Paluka at July 14, 2008 1:34 PM

Want and need are two different things. Make one of those bedrooms into a home-office, put in 2-3 kids, and that place fills up.

Posted by: Rookie at July 14, 2008 1:39 PM

Pretty fabulous.
No down-side here.
Just show Libby the money.

Isn't she on the Landmarks Commission panel?

Posted by: sam at July 14, 2008 1:46 PM

doubt it. PS is nice, but not that nice...

Posted by: qis4quincy at July 14, 2008 1:46 PM

Kitchen is hideous, but love the openness of the parlor floor. And, there's no apt. to use for rental?

And again, at that price, I'd like some more pictures. Also, why is 2nd street the most desirable block, out of curiousity?

Posted by: new2hood at July 14, 2008 1:52 PM

Also, for that price, would you not want a garden?

Posted by: hollander at July 14, 2008 1:58 PM

it looks like the deck leads down to a garden (I'd assume), but pics would have been nice!

Posted by: new2hood at July 14, 2008 2:01 PM

kitchen is truly awful..wallpaper, formica countertop with wood edge!!!

wonder how bad the bathrooms are!!

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at July 14, 2008 2:02 PM

I want to be a contrarian and say that the kitchen is perfectly charming in an old money way. It looks like a kitchen in a house in Greenwich or Tuxedo Park. This ain't a trendy refrigerator-in-your-living-room J condo layout.
Whether or not they get the ask will be interesting. I agree that it is one of the very best locations in Park Slope. I say they get ask. This place is tasty delicious.

Posted by: sam at July 14, 2008 2:02 PM

I like the open parlor, too, but have a question. In most brownstones, the hallway walls that separate the stairwell from the actual parlor are load bearing, are they not? Shouldn't they need some supporting columns, or something, to replace the support supplied by having a hallway?

Posted by: Montrose Morris at July 14, 2008 2:14 PM

For that price I'd want a 25 footer. Also, with a large deck behind the very large extension, there isn't much room for much of a garden, unless the deck allows light and air a plenty at the ground level. Price chop is in order.

Posted by: LM at July 14, 2008 2:15 PM

General lack of photos is not a good sign. Also, is there no basement below the English basement? I assume that's why the mechanicals are in the English basement? If so, that's a big drawback.

This is a great location but I ain't seeing $750/SF for a 1-family in this market unless the place is beautiful through and through. I would guess that there's a $300K haircut coming soon if the owners must sell.

Posted by: FatLenny at July 14, 2008 2:24 PM

Love the open ground floor but there doesn't seem to be much detail in that space (and Im sure there was at some point). Either way, they've done a nice job of that space.

The kitchen photo gives pause. Not that there is anything wrong with that kitchen but it hardly implies a high end renovation throughout.

Posted by: Mrs. Limestone at July 14, 2008 2:32 PM

Is that kitchen recession proof?

Posted by: billyboomer at July 14, 2008 2:34 PM

That kitchen is apparently taste-proof.

$2.7m tops.

Posted by: SnarkSlope at July 14, 2008 2:41 PM

Montrose: I don't think the internal walls are load bearing. I could be wrong, but the beams that run under the floor and attach to the walls on each side are enough as these buildings are not wide enough to require additioanl support.

FatLenny: No basement under and English basement

Posted by: 11233 at July 14, 2008 3:07 PM

11233, good to know. Thanks!

Posted by: Montrose Morris at July 14, 2008 3:41 PM

I'm not in love with that kitchen, but if you've got $3.4M, then what's another $50K to get the exact kitchen you want? If I were in that price range a serviceable, but unstylish kitchen would not scare me off. But, I'm not in that price range.

Posted by: BrooklynButler at July 14, 2008 3:42 PM

Oooo, that's a bad kitchen. Like the layout of the place. Curious that BHS features an ugly kitchen but not the garden, a good shot of the dining room or any of the bedrooms.

Montrose, I thought that internal wall was load bearing too - it's the main load-bearing wall in my townhouse.

Not sure about 2nd Street being the most desireable - for the North/Center Slope you're about the longest possible walk between the Grand Army Plaza and 9th Street subways. Also, if you're this house is on the south side of the street, the stepped-back houses on 3rd with their short back gardens loom closer to your property line than on other blocks. Having said that, I think limestones are beautiful and I'd love to be on a park block.

Posted by: zeebee_in_bklyn at July 14, 2008 3:49 PM

Trust me, the folks who buy this house will like this kitchen. It is for the kids, the help, and the caterers. The owners themselves will probably never set foot in it.
This is a whole other ballgame we are talking about with a property like this.

Posted by: sam at July 14, 2008 3:53 PM

Just one more thing -I promise this will be it for me.
The center wall in most brownstones, especially the ones over sixteen or so feet wide, are most certainly load bearing. Remove those walls at your own risk!
You need to consult with an architect or engineer please before you remove those walls.

Posted by: sam at July 14, 2008 4:18 PM

a center stair case always makes a brownstone look larger. i don't understand why they would build the breakfast nook so far over to block the door? i don't think it need to be that long.

Posted by: bkny at July 14, 2008 4:18 PM

sam is correct. they additionally have support columns in the basement. That said, a load bearing wall can be removed and replaced with a steel beam to which the joists are fastened. It can be made invisible being incorporated into the ceiling. The steel beam needs support on both ends. Its unclear from the one photo and the floorplans just what they have engineered.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at July 14, 2008 4:26 PM

I must say, this new policy of having people sign in seems to have resulted in a much more pleasant conversation....

Posted by: new2hood at July 14, 2008 4:30 PM

Sam: On the load bearing wall. Really? I thought the beams go from brick wall to brick wall and run between the floor of one level and the ceiling of the level below? Traditionally, the wall that Montrose was thinking about (I believe) would be the wall that would "house" the pocket doors and, thus, would not be laod bearing due to the hollow nature of the wall. I know that - in my house at least- the basement has additional supports but I don't remember them aligning with the walls above.

Montrose: I hope I haven't steared you wrong.

Posted by: 11233 at July 14, 2008 4:32 PM

Thanks, Dave (and Sam). I didn't see your post until after I posted again.

Sorry, Montrose!

Posted by: 11233 at July 14, 2008 4:34 PM

11233 think of where your stairs are...the floor joists can't span from party wall to party wall because of the gap that the stairs leave...and must be supported on the side the stairs are by the typical hallway wall separating parlour from hallway. You can completely remove that wall as long as the ceiling joists (upper floor) are supported by a steel beam that has a load bearing post at both ends. It does require an engineer to spec out the whole thing.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at July 14, 2008 4:37 PM

"This is a whole other ballgame we are talking about with a property like this."

Is it really a whole other ballgame?

Aren't folks selling their 2BRS on the UWS and purchasing these homes with all cash?

Do they suddenly give up using the kitchen when they move to Brooklyn?

Posted by: SnarkSlope at July 14, 2008 4:48 PM

I reiterate that this kitchen is an eyesore. It looks like a home depot kitchen and its visible from the formal dining room. The nicest kitchen I've seen so far in over a year of seeing things on here has been Mrs. Limestone's. This house deserves better than this at this price range. That said, I agree with BrooklynButler...it'll take about $50k for new cabinets, etc. What you don't want to be doing is paying a very high price for a very high end kitchen remodel that you jast can't stand yourself, no matter how expensive it was.

I think the lack of pics call into question the quality of the bathrooms as well. Additionally with a house this large, and this expensive, it should have an en suite master bath, not one down the hall

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at July 14, 2008 4:57 PM

I'm so sick of the standard high-end kitchen renos, this one actually looks nice and quaint to me. I love those slats for plates above the white and not stainless sink. And I don't think Home Depot makes those. People put waaay too much stock in kitchens. That room, by virtue of not having an annoying island in the middle of it, looks like a pretty nice place to hang out. Hard to tell in the picture, but the wood looks real, not home depot. Of course I am far from an expert, but the kitchen's cute, good bones. Lose the wallpaper, paint the cabinets if you want to get funky, add a nice farmhouse table and you're done, shrug.

Posted by: Heather at July 14, 2008 5:07 PM

I agree with Heather and Sam. Although I can understand it not suiting everyone's taste and am not saying it's perfect, I think for some, especially families with young children, it's functional and sufficient. In fact, the rugrats will surely love the formica and wrap around bench.

Posted by: Biff Champion at July 14, 2008 5:20 PM

Oops, I was referring to the kitchen...if that wasn't obvious. But Dave, I think you're right regarding the rest of the home; a lack of pictures is usually not a good sign.

Posted by: Biff Champion at July 14, 2008 5:22 PM

Regarding the bearing wall issue: While renovating a 17'10"-wide house in P Heights, we were surprised to discover that the floor joists were not resting on the wall in the middle. They ran straight from brick party wall to party wall. Our structural engineer had drawn up plans for putting in a steel beam, but scrapped them when he saw that the middle wall was not, in fact, bearing any load.

Posted by: brooklynrulz at July 14, 2008 5:32 PM

Doesn't a house at this price point merit more than a "functional and sufficient" kitchen?

And is that - clutch pearls - track lighting in the parlor?!?!

Posted by: SnarkSlope at July 14, 2008 5:59 PM

SnarkSlope, I see your point; I was just commenting on the state of the kitchen without regard to the price, which is very hard to assess without the benefit of more pictures. The turbulent markets will likely also redefine what one should get at this price point. One thing for sure is this is a large home in a fantastic location.

Posted by: Biff Champion at July 14, 2008 6:10 PM

I was a skeptic, I must say. But...
no insults, violent insinuation. No snarky, mean spirited disses. In short, no guests!

Huh. I suppose this just might work. Though I do see that the volume is considerably down.

Per HOTD: I agree the price is high, and the kitchen a bit overhaul-ready. It also surprises me that people (Sam?) continue to think that anyone buying in this price point will "never see the inside of their kitchen" hence the room doesn't matter much, or that they have staff and butlers etc. It simply isn't true.

Nice to see everyone! I'm sipping upon a particularly tasty Merlot, and it always reminds me of Sideways' "I'm not FU*C*IN' drinking MERLOT!"

I'm tipping my glass to you.

Posted by: Nokilissa at July 14, 2008 7:13 PM

Oh, and SnarkSlope, I may have to pilfer your "clutch pearls" epithet! Love it.

Posted by: Nokilissa at July 14, 2008 7:16 PM

Noklissa, there's no such thing as a tasty Merlot. The guy in Sideways was right.

Posted by: denton at July 14, 2008 7:36 PM

The house is fantastic. the kitchen doesn't matter, Sam is right. But the master bedroom is sub par. That may lower the sale price. But not by much.
Nokilissa, it is, I suppose, possible that someone who buys a 3.5 million dollar mansion may be interested in cooking and hanging out in the kitchen, but it is a remote possibilty. These guys and gals are different from you and me. This was true back in Gatsby's day and it is true today.
If the house has a star quality to it it will sell for ask. If it feels too much like a DUMBO loft, it will not.

Posted by: Gary Cooper at July 14, 2008 7:55 PM

Hmmm, I'm not sure that $3.5m puts you in the Gatsby class. Maybe a $10m townhouse in the Village at the very least, or a $30m place on the UES.

Posted by: SnarkSlope at July 14, 2008 8:07 PM

splitting hairs between the really rich and the really really rich is a fool's errand. The bottom line is that the upper classes in NY, it may be a little different in foreign places like California, are not interested in kitchens or in cooking, that is something the upper middle class is in to. I am hedging my bets in this case because it is Park Slope, which is only very lately a hangout of the really rich.
It goes without saying that a 30 million dollar place in the UES would have a hideous kitchen, I think it is de rigueur.
Do you know what Bloomberg serves his dinner guests? meatloaf.

Posted by: Gary Cooper at July 14, 2008 8:28 PM

I recall in the last real estate/economic implosion, the mid 1970s, I was a young ambitious 17yo working in D'Agostinos. I was pretty happy as I was the youngest asst store manager they ever had and I was making enuf money to live comfortably in a new doorman building on the UWS. Not bad for a teenage dropout runaway.

I was in a store on 76th and Lex which served Park and 5th Ave, and I was fortunate enuf to meet and become close to a young girl who had many friends in the area (she attended a prestigious private school on the UES as well).

She introduced me to a number of her friends who lived in fabulous UES apts, many of which I visited. But the recession/depression still affected many of them. My lovely young GF pointed out one family in particular with a phenomenal huge kitchen, which was probably bigger than my entire apt, and told me they were dealing with the recession by cooking twice a week.

Prior to that, they went out for dinner every night.

So, there is a difference btw the really rich and the rest of us.

I'm not sure 3.5 mil for a house in PS is that rich. But we'll see, right?

Posted by: denton at July 14, 2008 8:41 PM

I like the kitchen cabinets but the pink sink's gotta go! I think just taking out the booth, putting in a smaller table and different chairs would make a world of difference. Oh- and the wallpaper- gone! But it looks sort of englishy (is that a word?)to me.

The open floor plan is really gorgeous but on the other hand I couldn't afford this place in 10 lifetimes so any comments I make about the house are completely futile anyway. :-)

Posted by: bxgrl at July 14, 2008 8:55 PM

I know plenty of people who can afford a $3.5M house and are very interested in the kitchen. New York is full of regular people who have made a lot of money in a career- $3M homes aren't just for trust fund people and high society types.

Posted by: Paluka at July 14, 2008 9:25 PM

bxgirl, there's always marriage :-)

Posted by: denton at July 14, 2008 9:28 PM

denton you should know by now that if you marry for money, you end up earning every cent.

Posted by: Gary Cooper at July 14, 2008 9:34 PM

paluka, I think you are full of meatloaf.

Posted by: Gary Cooper at July 14, 2008 9:38 PM

I think today's obsession with kitchen and bathrooms will be tomorrow's hot tub on a deck with ferns and a key party. Or something. You don't actually "need" a 100K kitchen to cook anything. I'm not immune to kitchen and bathroom porn by any means, but it's a little out of control, part of the bubble, again.

Posted by: Heather at July 14, 2008 10:11 PM

Much prefer the signed in version!
I saw a research piece by one of the main investment banks today entitled "superbubble". It compared what has happened to property in all of the developed nations.
Part of the study was a comparison of the international property index. The index started at 100 for all countries in 2000. The index hit 170 for the US and then turned down, but interestingly Ireland, UK, Italy,France and Spain all went higher than 170. Spain went to 250 and UK and France went over 200 also.
It found that the average length of booms went for about 6.25 year and bust 4.25 year but the current boom lasted 14.25 years, and while average upturn made 39% percent and downturn lost 20 percent, the current boom average was a wopping 117 percent.
Affordability is most interesting of all. Almost all countries overshot in affordability. The US though came 13th of the most unaffordable countries (being 10% over a notional 100) and with 6 counteries more than 20% over.
The US is not alone in its problems. This is a global issue and when you compare the US in some respects, we are not doing that badly.

Posted by: Aussie at July 14, 2008 11:50 PM

« Condos of the Day: Head-to-Head in Dumbo Streetlevel: Daycare and Preschool for 85 Adams »

July 14, 2008

House of the Day: 615 2nd Street

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