Closing Bell: Brooklyn Flea + Urban Arts Festival

From what I understand, Mr. B and Eric were pretty much the last to know about the "neighborhood concerns." and were a bit taken by surprise. Neither of them were ever contacted directly and weren't aware until Velmanette Montgomery came to the flea to tell them the situation last week. So I don't think the lack of communication is on brownstoner's head, nor should he be taken to task for insincerity re fixing problems he wasn't told about. Since this was the 3rd meeting the Church had and the first that had any Flea supporters (since they weren't told of the other meetings), I have to say the church is not acting in either good faith or even with any concern for the community other than its own parishioners. They don't want to resolve any issues, they just want their way.

Posted by: bxgrl at July 25, 2008 5:15 PM

"Our conspiracy to destroy Christianity through flea markets is working. They better watch out for that farmer's market we have planned."

"What 'til they see the Islamo-fascist record swap we have planned."

"Satanic antique dealers of the world, victory is at hand!"

Just a few of the utterly hilarious gawker thread comments.

I do think i would have been much more sympathetic to the church concerns if they had tried to communicate with Jon and Eric first in an attempt to rectify problems. After reading the report and some of the outrageous comments made, I'm far less caring.

if anyone cares to email their reps, these were posted on racked:

Borough President Marty Markowitz
marty@brooklynbp.nyc.gov

Council Member Letitia James
james@council.nyc.ny.us

Assemblyman Hakeem Jeffries
JeffriesH@assembly.state.ny.us

State Senator Velmanette Montgomery
montgome@senate.state.ny.us

Posted by: bxgrl at July 25, 2008 5:41 PM

This isn't a mob of 10,000 raving townspeople bearing down on the castle (the picture on reclaimed home is a hoot). They come throughout the day. The flea is not so packed at any one time that you can't walk, and these are mostly families, students, artists, designers, and antiques buyers not the Mongol Hordes. The playground is larger than you think. Red Hook and the Navy yard are hardly the most convenient locations to get to.

From all reports the church parishioners made no bones about their own intolerance- and no one is dismissing them because they are parishioners. But c'mon, claiming you can't attend church because you're afraid of the bicycles, or you can't be dropped off in front of the Church, is a little silly. I think people are being dismissive because the Church didn't go directly to Jon or Eric, they went to Montgomery. That's hardly the way a community-involved organization acts, especially in view of the warm welcome the community at large gave the Flea. You're right, it may not be about insecurity or intolerance (although that was certainly in evidence), but it is about how much the Church feels it has a right to dictate to the community at large for its own convenience. And to be honest, when churches (yes, and synagogues, mosques and temples) decide to give up their special tax benefits and exemptions, and pay their full share, then they would have a better claim to make demands.

I used to live on the same street as a church- they were a huge pain in the ass and treated the street as if it were their own personal parking lot and yard. Not to mention years of playing a tape of church bells extremely loudly to mark the hour, half hour AND quarter hour.

Posted by: bxgrl at July 25, 2008 6:22 PM

There is a NYT piece today.It even mentions Ms. walsh and her anti-semitic spew. No wonder the church didn't want any press at the meeting. the church is not the landlord for the school, which is run by the De La Salle Christian Brothers for the RC Archdiocese. It's a shame the church is so focused on its own needs to the detriment of the community.

the flea is successful for a lot of reasons, and one look at the mix of crowd and vendors should immediately dispel any notion of how gentrification is "ruining" the neighborhood. the flea is one of the few places where everyone mixes in enthusiastically, in a family setting that really works for everyone. I've seen Black, Asian, Hispanic and white families all doing the same thing- enjoying the day together. It also offers young designers and small vendors a great venue- many of them are Black and Hispanic. If the so-called professional Black people of the church really care so much about the Black community, they should see how beneficial the flea really is.

The flea is not an elitist slap in the face of the churchgoers or the Black community of CH/FG. If anything it's an asset to the neighborhood that is inclusive of everyone. Not all change is good- the Flea is one of those changes that is not only a great benefit, but can help ease some of the racial tensions as the neighborhood changes. It's free, it's got shopping, food, kids running around, artists, antiques in a welcoming atmosphere. Since the church is so worried about family values these days, maybe they should take a look at how much better the Flea is at promoting that than they are.

Posted by: bxgrl at July 26, 2008 8:47 AM

I thought that comment in the times was a little facetious, and doesn't really represent what I think Jon is about. defending brownstone Brooklyn for him (Jon feel free to correct me here) is about the architectural beauty of it. He's invested in his community and not about chasing anyone out of the neighborhood other than drug dealers and criminals. which is pretty much what any neighborhood wants, I think. Parishioners certainly don't want a criminal element either- so in that respect, everyone's interests dovetail nicely.

The flea always seemed to me to be another way to invest in the community in a way that offers benefits for all. If some people feel the need to make it into a race issue, I suggest you look at how many vendors and attendees are not white, but other races. Obviously they like the flea very much.

there's no getting around the anti-semitism of Ms. walsh's remark. whether or not it could happen on a Saturday next to a temple isn't the issue. Her remarks play right into the old Protocols of the Elders of Zion garbage. If you don't like people being biased against you, practice what you preach. remember the Blue Laws? Jewish businesses were forced to remain closed on Sundays because it was the Christian sabbath- yet Christian business had no problem being open on Saturdays- must be ok to desecrate the Jewish and Muslim Sabbaths I guess.

Of course there are issues when you bring a neighborhood event in. But the church is obviously about no event under any circumstances and the hell with who it hurts. And shutting down the flea will hurt both Minority and White vendors and local businesses. You don't get more selfish, shortsighted or elitist than that.

Posted by: bxgrl at July 26, 2008 11:26 AM

Carleton- but the location is perfect. The flea isn't trying to be the Javits east. It's one day a week, not all year round. If the flea isn't appropriate to a school yard, how can a track be? How can restaurants be? How can clothing stores be? Neighborhoods need things like this- not just to support businesses and artisans, but because it adds to the community feel. And most of the community seems to love having it.

"Racism is real but it has absolutely nothing to do with the real issue of location. " is absolutely correct so why should church members make it so? The comment was offensive because it implies Jews have all the power and money in this country that they run everything. and its a comment that goes to the heart of the rationale for anti-semitism. I can vouch for the fact that we don't. Oddly, Jewish access to banking is a direct result of manipulation by the church. In medieval times,Jews were forced to handle church money because there were laws that forbade the church to do certain things, like lend money and charge interest. (I may not have some of the details correct, but the history is true.)

If church members hadn't mentioned synagogues or Jewish communities at all, most people wouldn't be so up in arms and there could have been a real dialogue about the Flea and its impact on the community. But the church showed a very ugly side of itself and a very insular attitude toward the community. How could they expect any other sort of reaction than what they are getting now?

Posted by: bxgrl at July 26, 2008 1:01 PM

rarely posts- if you read what I posted yesterday at 5:15, it kind of explains what's been happening. Jon and eric really had no idea about the meetings in other than a grapeviney way before Velmanette Montgomery came to speak to them last week. Both yo and g-man are jumping the gun here in assuming they purposefully didn't post about the problems for some hazy, we don't care reason. And as you said, you emailed him about the second meeting at the last minute. At that point neither he nor Eric were really sure what the problem was (I'd been in touch with them by email too, you're not the only one), and rather than assume anything or as Jon said, fan the flames, they chose to attend a meeting and see what the deal was. I don't find that unreasonable at all.

If anything was unreasonable, it was the church calling meetings behind their backs and trying to get the flea shut down without even speaking to them. It's obvious the church really doesn't care about the whole community. If it did, it would have made an effort to let them know they were unhappy before trying to get the big guns in.

Posted by: bxgrl at July 26, 2008 1:11 PM

gman- I can only go by what Eric told me. That said, I still can't in good conscience put this on them. I think they acted responsibly and wanted to wait until they heard for themselves what the issues were.

But I also want to thank NOP for a beautifully stated piece on what the "old guard" may be feeling and I can understand that feeling of being besieged and losing the home and community you fought so hard to keep during all the bad times. But with St. Joseph's and Pratt in the area, CH/FG was never so isolated as Bed-Stuy, nor, I don't think it fell on hard times the way Bed-Stuy did (and I'm sure MM can answer this much more confidently than I) - and there was always a greater mix.

Yet QAS really doesn't seem to care about what might be good for the community at large. It is my understanding that in Bed-Stuy and in CHN, it is the "old guard" that has been in the vanguard of trying to improve the neighborhood. And i think would love to see this kind of event here.

And I think the churches here are more active as well. Concord has a very active social program in the community, as do a number of the other area churches. They perceive themselves within the context of the community. My feeling is that QAS is just the opposite. Otherwise why have secret meetings? And more importantly, why work against something that benefits not just newcomers, but members of the local community and minorities? QAS' resentment of the flea is on the order of cutting off your nose to spite your face and the "within the first 10 minutes the monsignor expressed regret that there were so many supporters there as he had hoped that it would only be a forum for grievances." really says it all.

Posted by: bxgrl at July 26, 2008 7:43 PM

Awww that's OK, NOP. I still think you're the bees knees and the cat's meow.

(fabulous picture Jon. Offer it as a poster- judging by the reaction here you'll sell out the edition!)

Posted by: bxgrl at July 28, 2008 8:56 AM

Fsrq- not sure which blog you're reading but brownstoner hardly opposes every new project and opposition to the destruction of beautiful architecture and long standing communities is hardly the same thing as being opposed to something that enhances the community and the economy for a broad range of people. And the name of the blog is brownstoner, not brooklyncondo.com. Most people on this blog are not opposed to change, but they are opposed to seeing developers build whatever over priced pos they want and destroy wonderful architecture, and put local small buisnesses out to do it.

Heather, it is kind of a shame but on the other hand, if parishioners themselves can't intelligently self-edit their comments, they leave themselves open to being quoted for their most stupid comments.

The anti-semitic comments got so much more play because 1. it's ugly, 2. it wasn't necessary to the Flea issue in the first place, and 3. the pastor neither took a stand on that type of commentary being allowed in the Church, nor apologized for it.

And from what I've read, the press isn't the group reducing the whole thing to that one issue. It's people who are responding to those comments because that sort of religious nonsense is the last thing this country needs more of. Maybe the church accept the fact that had they acted like concerned members of the community and been honest enough to voice their concerns in a civilized way, they wouldn't be in this position.

Posted by: bxgrl at July 28, 2008 10:51 AM

I often think Jon posts articles in such a way as to invite comments and, yes, controversy but I've never gotten the impression he has an anti-change agenda at all. His issue- and for most of us, is the quality of the project or change. And certainly everyone has a different opinion on that, but hey, wouldn't be much of a blog if posters weren't voicing opinions.

And while new projects don't necessarily involve tearing down beautiful old architecture, who wants to see Brooklyn filled up with trash construction? Not me. I don't think I'm alone in feeling many developers go too far too fast and for far too much money. Brooklyn has beautful old and historic neighborhoods- it's one of the reasons people love it so much. So I don't see why developers can't be a bit more cognizant of that fact. Have you seen the rooftop addition to the old Board of Ed building? It's atrocious- tell me they couldn't have made that design work better. AY is an architectural, financial and community nightmare. It's all about ego- not about what's good for Brooklyn. Ratner could give a rat's ass about the community.

Doesn't mean I am opposed to new projects- there are several of them going up in my neighborhood and I am thrilled. Most people here aren't opposed to change but just want change for the better.

Posted by: bxgrl at July 28, 2008 11:30 AM

Sorry heather- I really have to disagree on that- if Jewish people were the problem with the Flea, it would be understandable for her to mention a synagogue. But it was a gratuitous comment and unnecessary to the whole matter at hand. The meeting was not for the community, though- it was for the church members and as the pastor said, a meeting to air grievances to their politicians. And they rejected whatever changes and fixes were offered. So they were definitely not about resolution. I do agree that it is unfortunate it has become such an issue at the expense of the real one, the economics. And true the story of the church and the school is definitely the stronger one.

But that said, the church chose to present the issue as one of it's convenience over benefits for the community as a whole. Not that they don't have legitimate beefs- they certainly do. But they went about trying to resolve it in a way that was bound to get people angry and upset.Once they started making comments about Jews, they set it up themselves as a religious issue. And it's a shame because now it's very much blown up out of proportion and the church is now seen at odds with the community, local businesses and with a neighboring Roman Catholic school. I just can't blame th press for that.

I thought maybe your cat walked across the keyboard :-)

Posted by: bxgrl at July 28, 2008 11:44 AM

fsrq- you'll notice I said everyone has opinions on that :-)

Posted by: bxgrl at July 28, 2008 11:50 AM

That's right, Biff. Blame the hill.

I love firefox by the way Heather. I finally went to it after having so many problems with IE7 and so wish I had done it sooner.

Posted by: bxgrl at July 28, 2008 2:41 PM