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July 28, 2008

Bed-Stuy, Do or...?

About a month ago, an L.A. Times piece on Bed-Stuy had a gentrification-is-happening- not-everyone's-thrilled take on the neighborhood. Yesterday, our paper of record weighed in with a more nuanced examination of how Bed-Stuy is evolving: "a changing neighborhood not quite changed, transforming not in broad strokes but in half-steps." The article notes that average sales prices in the neighborhood have edged down recently, and that it has one of the highest rates of foreclosure in the city. Some well-heeled folks who moved to the neighborhood in the past year or so, meanwhile, say they're frustrated with the area's lack of amenities. “We just wish there was more variety nearby, for places to go out,” says a 25-year-old law student who's lived in Bed-Stuy for a year and now plans to move to the East Village. “You just wish you could go out and have different types of bars and night life nearby.” Still, there's plenty of redevelopment in the area, and Petra Symister, who writes Bed-Stuy Blog, says the neighborhood's rebirth "is happening in fits and starts, kind of a jerky progression.” Henry Butler, 41, chairman of Community Board 3, notes that in his view, more affordable development is particularly welcome: "It's about income...I'm not looking to Harlemize Bedford-Stuyvesant. My emphasis is on the working people."
Growing Pains Come and Go in Bed-Stuy [NY Times]
Photo by ultraclay!.

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Comments

This is good for 100+ posts. Lets see now.. Maybe the Asshats has realized that Bed Stuy has a long way to go?

Cognitive dissonance

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance

"In psychology, cognitive dissonance is an uncomfortable feeling or stress caused by holding two contradictory ideas simultaneously. The theory of cognitive dissonance proposes that people have a fundamental cognitive drive to reduce this dissonance by modifying an existing belief, or rejecting one of the contradictory ideas."

Let's see.. Lets overpay to live in the hood! Let's whine when we get robbed. Let's bitch because there are no "Amenities" in the neighborhood.

Now the Asshats want to leave? That's not a good sign. Matter of fact, thats a very bad sign. But don't worry you will have me to keep you company.

The What (Tick.. Tick.. Tick..)

Someday these race baiting threads is gonna end...

Posted by: what at July 28, 2008 9:51 AM

won't end until you stop posting jackass

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at July 28, 2008 10:04 AM

The LA Times piece was very much about the Mynt, the condo turned high-end rental, and the smallish section of Bed Stuy around Myrtle and Marcy.

It's seems really weird (and journalistically lazy)to make generalizations about all of Bed-Stuy as the Times did. It's one of NYC's largest neighborhoods and not so easy to pigeonhole.

Just more incomplete and and inaccurate Brooklyn reporting from the NYT...

Posted by: tinarina at July 28, 2008 10:08 AM

I don' understand why people move into certain neighborhoods and then complain about lack of certain amenities that they knew weren't available before hand.

Ever think that Bed-Stuy does NOT want nightclubs and bars on every corner?

Maybe it wants to stay primarily residential???

If you want nightlife, move to Williamsburg or the West Village. Don't thrust YOUR new ideals on the mass that are already living there.

***I don't have an issue with new services coming, I just have a serious gripe with trying to turn every neighborhood into a party/club hopping scene. When some people come home they might just want a quiet neighborhood, not some douchebag you hear throwing up under your window.***

Posted by: TJC82 at July 28, 2008 10:08 AM

i read this article yesterday and wasn't surprised...

it's mathematical:

(fringe hoods + lack of transit + bad economy = bad investment, rental OR purchase)

*good lesson learned for transplants or other 'hopefuls'

Posted by: bk_bobb at July 28, 2008 10:11 AM

"won't end until you stop posting jackass"

Hiya Dave! How are you doing? Hey did you read this?

THAT '70S WOE IN RERUN
GOV WARNING OF WORST ECONOMY IN DECADES

"ALBANY - Gov. Paterson, convinced the state faces its worst fiscal crisis since the mid-1970s, will deliver the grim news in an unprecedented special address to New Yorkers as soon as tomorrow night, "

http://tinyurl.com/6bwz7x

Hey Dave you are at ground zero! How is your "investment" now? ROTMFFLMMFAO!

Maybe Biff will let you move in..

The What (This is getting good)

Someday this war is gonna end..

Posted by: what at July 28, 2008 10:16 AM

I read the article and felt that it was pretty limited in scope to the area around Myrtle and Nostrand. Bedford-Stuyvesant is so large and it didn't seem very relevant to other sections of the neighborhood. Stuyvesant Heights may have similar issues to those discussed in the article, but I really didn't feel like I was reading about my neighborhood. If anything, I feel more confident about Stuyvesant Heights than I did this time last year. There seems to be a real sense of community and transportation to Manhattand and downtown Brooklyn are very good.

Posted by: StuyHeightsGuy at July 28, 2008 10:22 AM

I guess you don't spend much time in Bed Stuy Bobb. The A train express gets you into the city in about 20 minutes. Takes me longer than that from Park Slope.

Posted by: Brooklynnative at July 28, 2008 10:26 AM

Yes, things are beginning to move on Lewis Ave. There's a florist and wine bar going in and I heard that work has begun on the Italian pizza restaurant on the corner of Lewis & Halsey.

On a negative note I heard that a few of the windows were broken at Stuyvesant & Macon storefront. Haven't been home yet to check it out but he was foolish not to put the shutters up!!!

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at July 28, 2008 10:27 AM

I read that this article and then took a walk around my part of Bedstuy (Stuyvesant Heights). Very very very different places. I usually let people talk bad about bed-stuy if they please. Really doesn't affect me personally one way or the other. However, I agree with tinarina, it is pretty journalistically lazy to write this article and then make generalizations about an entire neighborhood. Nostrand and Marcy? C’mon?

The blocks surrounding the Stuyvesant Heights area (an area about the size of Fort Greene) are amazing. Crime is held in check and the amenities are coming. Not in fits and starts, but what seems to be a good pace of organic growth.

We purchased in bed-stuy for the long term (as did most of my neighbors). I think that a slight reduction in average prices is a good thing. It will encourage more young families to purchase in the neighborhood and help make it better overall.

I find it pretty interesting that Bedford Stuyvesant gets this much press (and this much airtime on Brownstoner). I have to believe that all this press is a net positive for the 'hood. Thank you New York, LA and Brownstoner!

Posted by: bedstuyhoya at July 28, 2008 10:28 AM

I do it every day Brooklynnative...about 12-15 mins to B'way/Nassau...25 mins to 34th street....from Utica A stop.

Always seems faster on the way home though!!!!

My business partner tried to get in Peaches Sat night and it was jam packed

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at July 28, 2008 10:29 AM

I'm still in shock that there's a $600K condo for sale on Myrtle. I was looking around at the web and 8 years ago you could buy a $600K coop on Beekman Place in Manhattan... (Although I assume the maintenance was probably higher.)

Posted by: Heather at July 28, 2008 10:30 AM

StuyHeightsGuy, I had the same reaction you did. All they did was write about the area right around the MYNT. That area has very little in common with the brownstone areas to the south. Lazy journalism.

Posted by: StuyMom at July 28, 2008 10:33 AM

"My business partner tried to get in Peaches Sat night and it was jam packed"

No Dave, you meant.

"My business partner was in my Peaches Sat night and he was packing jam"

The What

Someday this war is gonna end....

Posted by: what at July 28, 2008 10:33 AM

Partner is a "she" jackass

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at July 28, 2008 10:40 AM

Bed Stuy is over, son.

Posted by: PropJoe at July 28, 2008 11:00 AM

It was an interesting article. I live in what I would call central Bed Stuy. All areas of Bed Stuy have a long way to go-although there are some incredibly beautiful blocks here and there. I love where I live but like some in the article I get frustrated with the lack of amenities. The majority of the restaurants/take out places should not be behind bullet proof glass.

But I love my neighbors. I had a friend visiting this weekend and she commented how nice everyone was in the neighborhood. After having everyone say hello to us on the street and even young boys opening the door to the corner store.
It will be interesting to see what happens to Bed Stuy in the next 3-5 years, especially with this economic downturn.

Posted by: 7andfive at July 28, 2008 11:04 AM

similarly to many people here I find it very annoying that they try to generalize about the gentrification of bed stuy through the example of one far end of the neighborhood. I hardly think that Myrtle Ave is an accurate barometer for where the neighborhood is on the whole. I would love to see more info and analysis about what is happening in Stuy Heights.

Posted by: wasder at July 28, 2008 11:08 AM

Can people please stop acting like Stuy Heights is some magical place of Bed Stuy? Trust me it NOT and has some shady blocks as well.

Posted by: 7andfive at July 28, 2008 11:12 AM

NEWSFLASH: This article was not meant to be read by anyone who has even a mild familiarity with Bed-Stuy. This is fluff that fails or begin to fathom the nuances of Bed-Stuy.

This lazy reportage reads more like creative fiction rather than jounalism...

Posted by: bct at July 28, 2008 11:14 AM

7andfive...please tell us which blocks in Stuyvesant Heights are "Shaddy" and why?

Posted by: bedstuyhoya at July 28, 2008 11:16 AM

Certain stretches of upper Stuyvesant Ave for one.

Posted by: 7andfive at July 28, 2008 11:19 AM

I think we are going to run into a definitional roadblock as to which streets are considered Stuyvesant Heights and which are not.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at July 28, 2008 11:21 AM

hey bknative,

i used to live off of myrtle a few blocks west of here -
trust me.

this stretch of bed-stuy/s.williamsburg./e.clinton hill or whatever it is being sold as lately LACKS THE CRUCIAL INFRASTRUCTURE TO MANDATE SUCH HIGH RE PRICES.

the NY(signs o'the)TIMES should've coined this article
"You paid WHAT for WHERE? DUH!"

Posted by: bk_bobb at July 28, 2008 11:26 AM

7andfive, when I refer to Stuyvesant Heights, first I think of the historic district (http://www.nyc.gov/html/lpc/downloads/pdf/maps/stuyvesant_heights.pdf) as defined in this map. There are no shady blocks within this map.

Some might broadly describe the nicer blocks of bedstuy as anything from Fulton to Putnam and Tompkins to Stuyvesant...a few bad blocks in this area, but they are few and far between.

I am sure this will fuel further debate...

Posted by: bedstuyhoya at July 28, 2008 11:33 AM

BK Bobb is not wrong. And I even like that part of Bed Stuy... walking distance to Williamsburg, access to the JMZ, walking distance to Clinton Hill, some gorgeous brownstones, community gardens, not bad things.

But that part of Bed Stuy also suffers terribly from real estate inflation, and as long as prices are that out of whack, you're not going to see many new amenities. Rents are too expensive, and there isn't enough of a consumer base to support them.

Posted by: Heather at July 28, 2008 11:38 AM

BedstuyHoya let's not get into semantics. Stuy Heights is more than just the historic district.

Posted by: 7andfive at July 28, 2008 11:40 AM

then you need to define it and tell us why it definitively includes those blocks 7andfive.

I've never seen it specifically defined to certain blocks and that's why there is now this disagreement.

Of course I consider myself part of Stuy Heights and I'm 2 blocks up from the end of the district..calandared as they say on Stuyvesant between Macon & Halsey.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at July 28, 2008 11:44 AM

For one, the historic district extends to Tompkins which in practical terms is central Bed Stuy. But doesn't include most of Lewis which is practical terms is part of Stuy Heights.

Posted by: 7andfive at July 28, 2008 11:47 AM

Newsflash #2: it was a newspaper weekend real-estate article about certain trends in the area and didn't need to come with a disclaimer that this is not an in-depth sociological and cultural analysis of zipcodes x,y and z carefully crafted not to offend any residents and shouldn't be read by anyone with neighborhood-hypersensitivity syndrome.

Posted by: dittoburg at July 28, 2008 11:50 AM

i need to write that one down dittoburg...

"neighborhood-hypersensitivity syndrome" LOL

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at July 28, 2008 11:57 AM

i live in this area of bed-stuy, at tompkins and myrtle. do i wish there were a few more restaurants in the area? sure. actually, they don't even need to be all that close, but if they delivered that would be nice! currently, none of the yummier clinton hill/ft. greene/willyb establishments do, so the best i can get is greasy chinese and pizza from the shitty places around (although to be fair, some are tastier than others).

anyway, agreed with whoever said that people should realize what they are getting into when moving to this part of the neighborhood. people live here because it's cheap. it's cheap because there isn't a whole lot of stuff around. i am very excited about this duane reade, but you know, that's also why the subway is down the block. so you can GET to the neighborhoods that have more bars and amenities, and where the rents are higher. if i was living in the mynt and paying $1700/month i would feel ripped off, sure. this part of bed-stuy is just not worth that much rent! but my apt. is a very spacious and beautiful 3 bed and i am happy with what i pay. i get frustrated sometimes, but i can hop on my bike, or do grocery shopping in the city on my way home. if this place becomes 'the next hipster enclave' (shudder), i won't be able to afford it! you gotta make some concessions.

Posted by: sarahlucy at July 28, 2008 11:58 AM

I am not sure we will agree on this one 7andfive...the blocks further north on Stuyvesant (past Monroe/Madison) are a bit more dicey, but I wouldn't count that as stuyvesant heights. It would be interesting to see a map of the old towns of Bedford and Stuyvesant Heights.

Interestingly enough...wikipedia defines it as follows:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuyvesant_Heights,_Brooklyn

Posted by: bedstuyhoya at July 28, 2008 12:01 PM

dittoburg, "neighborhood-hypersensitivity syndrome" is a keeper and will come in very handy on future posts. Can we refer to it simply as NHS, or will that piss off the National Health Service?

Posted by: Biff Champion at July 28, 2008 12:06 PM

did you get my email Biff?

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at July 28, 2008 12:07 PM

@ dittoburg, my comment had more to do with the overall quality of the NYT, as reflected in this piece. I am not looking for a sociological review of the current atmosphere in Bed-Stuy, but is a little depth so much to ask for from such a news outlet?

Posted by: bct at July 28, 2008 12:11 PM

NHS is pretty funny...I guess i have fallen victim to it today...

and now I will finally get some work done...

Posted by: bedstuyhoya at July 28, 2008 12:18 PM

Dave, I'll check later and let you know.

Posted by: Biff Champion at July 28, 2008 12:20 PM

Having lived in BK before all you investors/real estate experts/bitches.....I have come to believe there is a BIG difference between Stuyvesant Heights (whatever the hell that is) and regular DO OR DIE......regular Bed-Stuy owners can come to expect a 40% decline in real estate values in the next few years and Stuy Heights will be relatively immune in the coming bear cycle with declines of only 35% or so.........which means (with no malice or glee) if you wanted to live and make a home in your beautiful but sometimes troubled REAL brooklyn neighborhood, you are fine and in time you will show appreciation again......if you are a short termer, looking for a golden flip, me thinks you have only suceeded in flipping your net worth...you are already underwater....swim baby, swim!!

Posted by: slappy at July 28, 2008 12:21 PM

slappy...your 35% and 40% projections are ridiculous.

However, "if you're a short termer, looking for a golden flip" you are in the same situation now in any area of NYC, not just Bed Stuy

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at July 28, 2008 12:27 PM

slappy:

What a pathetic troll.

Posted by: Polemicist at July 28, 2008 12:35 PM

Dave - why are those projections ridiculous?

Posted by: fsrg at July 28, 2008 12:37 PM

Because we are not in a recession. Prices of commodities have started to drop. The S&P 500 is only off 15% YTD. Mortgage rates are no where near any highs seen over the past 30 years. Do you really think a $700,000 house is going to be selling for $420,000 and a $800,000 house is going to be selling for $520,000!!!!

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at July 28, 2008 12:44 PM

dittoburg, NHS is indeed a grand new coinage. The old game of categorizing/miscategorizing neighborhoods is irresistible, and it always goes the same way: one person says, "Neighborhood X is very Y," and someone else says, "No it's not, my friend lives there and he is very Z" and so on and so on.

The only difference with Bed-Stuy is that the neighborhood is so much larger than most of the other Brooklyn 'hoods, so you can REALLY play this game endlessly. And my problem with articles like this is that they don't even tip their hat to these nuances.

A luxury development next to a housing project is an entertaining subject for a feature, but it's not a representative example of a neighborhood that is mostly low-rise brownstone streets and gradual, slow-paced change (not overnight yuppie encroachment). Saying that the MYNT environs are representative of Bed-Stuy as a whole is like saying that "Sex and the City" accurately portrays life in New York City. It does, but for most of us it doesn't.

Posted by: StuyMom at July 28, 2008 12:51 PM

"slappy...your 35% and 40% projections are too low!

I say they will get assraped for 50% or more!

The Mutant Real Estate Bubble is over!

The What

Someday this war is gonna end..

BTW Ya'll look so cute defending a bad position...

Posted by: what at July 28, 2008 12:52 PM

predictable response from the assWhat. That said, each sentence was grammatically correct (more or less) and there were no spelling errors.

"A" for spelling
B- for sentence structure
F for predictable, unsubstantiated, monotonous content

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at July 28, 2008 12:55 PM

When you put it like that - no;

but when you say - We are in the middle of a massive credit crunch making low rates or large loans unavailable to many, that Wall St is going through a retrenchment not seen in decades, Commodities (esp. Energy) are the highest in a generation, Demographics will lead to the country's largest Govt Budget deficits ever, etc...

Do I think that it is possible that by 2010, houses in NYC will be back to 2003 prices - Yes - why not?

Posted by: fsrg at July 28, 2008 12:58 PM

"Because we are not in a recession. Prices of commodities have started to drop. The S&P 500 is only off 15% YTD. Mortgage rates are no where near any highs seen over the past 30 years. Do you really think a $700,000 house is going to be selling for $420,000 and a $800,000 house is going to be selling for $520,000!!!!"

This is called Cognitive dissonance, please take note. This Asshats says "Because we are not in a recession". That's funny, this weekend look like a ghost town. Hey Dave why don't go to Office Depot and ask the sales people there "are we in a recession?". Go to the Pizza Parlors and ask them the same question.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance

In psychology, cognitive dissonance is an uncomfortable feeling or stress caused by holding two contradictory ideas simultaneously. The theory of cognitive dissonance proposes that people have a fundamental cognitive drive to reduce this dissonance by modifying an existing belief, or rejecting one of the contradictory ideas.

And the rest of the "Asshats"!

Bandwagon effect

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bandwagon_effect

The bandwagon effect, also known as social proof or "cromo effect" and closely related to opportunism, is the observation that people often do and believe things because many other people do and believe the same things. The effect is often pejoratively called herding instinct, particularly when applied to adolescents. People tend to follow the crowd without examining the merits of a particular thing. The bandwagon effect is the reason for the bandwagon fallacy's success.

You see why this thing is going to end very badly..

BTW They are going to sign the "Asshat Foreclosure Rescue Bill" and interest rates are going to the moon!

The What

Someday this war is gonna end...

Posted by: what at July 28, 2008 12:58 PM

Shame on the NY Times for not doing there homework. I live on MacDonough St in the historic district proper and this article dose not relate to my world of Bedford Stuyvesant. Even in the "calendered" area outside the district like Bedford Corners ( Hancock, Macon, Jefferson near Nostrand)the area has a nice feel...

Posted by: Amzi Hill at July 28, 2008 1:02 PM

"Do you really think a $700,000 house is going to be selling for $420,000 and a $800,000 house is going to be selling for $520,000!!!!"

Absolutely.

Posted by: DOW8000SP800 at July 28, 2008 1:11 PM

Well....for the sake of the NYC budget, I hope my top-of-my-head projections are dead wrong, or at least severly off....I guess I'm cassandra today....I think my larger point, if missed by all the silly heat, is that maybe we all won't get rich overnight buying anything, anywhere....and we should appreciate BK for what it does have, and not try to cover up real problems by saying since i dont live across from the marcy pj's, this article has no merit, and in effect, I live in a totally different neighborhood than the one described here.....the article wasn't so bad...bed-stuy will change for the better over time....( i assume that includes the glorious Stuy-Heights as well, Whatever the fu*k that is)
By the way,Polemicist- Stop talking to my ex, who used to call me a pathetic troll often.....don't listen to her. She was a shrill, weak, emotional wreck-of-a-bitch ....wait....IS THAT YOU?

Posted by: slappy at July 28, 2008 1:13 PM

We have had this conversation over and over again. Bed-Stuy is huge. It does not help anyone understand where you live by saying "I live in Bed Stuy" unless you give cross streets. Saying "Stuyvesant Heights" is a little more helpful if people know the area, but then they think you're trying to distance yourself from the rest of the neighborhood.

I moved to Bed-Stuy, alright, Stuyvesant Heights a year ago for the community, and because I could afford to buy a home here (yes, that is a factor). I'm not planning on going anywhere any time soon, so as long as prices start to pick up in 10 years or so, I'm happy. For those who bought in the last year or so to flip, irrespective of where you bought -- what were you thinking?!?!? Seriously, everyone knew the market was about to blow. The reason I bought when I did was because I was afraid that after things got bad, I wouldn't be able to get a loan I could afford. That turns out to be true.

Now, there are parts of Bed-Stuy that I am not comfortable walking through by myself, but make no mistake, when I was looking to buy, I walked on every block -- even those deep into Bed-Stuy by the projects. I was careful, and no one bothered me.

Yet I digress. There are starting to be more things available locally (i.e the Y, the renovated Macon Library, the Saturday Teen Fresh Farmers Market, etc.) but I may be a little lower maintenance than some. Besides, I lived in Clinton Hill when there wasn't a lot of stuff around, and I have to tell you, once the restaurants started popping up I couldn't stand the people and crowds that started moving into the neighborhood.

Personally, I'll be very happy with a slow, steady progression in the neighborhood. And for things I need but cannot get nearby (i.e. good Italian or Tai), I can take the subway, bus or car to get where I need to go. I'm much happier with the slower pace and friendly vibe.

Just my take.

Posted by: MacD at July 28, 2008 1:47 PM

well said MacD

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at July 28, 2008 1:56 PM

Bedstuyhoya- who cares what wikipedia says about historic Bed Stuy town? I'm talking about today and the neighborhood's own psychological borders-which are far more accurate in practical terms.

Which means that Stuy Heights is not a haven no matter how hard you and Dave try to portray it as such. I'm it makes you feel better about your investment by separating this strip of land away from the rest of Bed Stuy. But my point is that Stuy Heights has some issues as well, as does all of the Stuy. In my opinion on section is not doing considerably better than any other section.

Are certain blocks doing better? Of course,we have some blocks that would rival anything in the slope or ft. greene. But even near those blocks you still don't have amenities and lots of bullet proof glass at area stores.

Posted by: 7andfive at July 28, 2008 1:57 PM

7andfive...you can't come to the party now!!!

Kidding....i'll let you know tomorrow or Wed what's going on

Dave

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at July 28, 2008 2:00 PM

Why do people in Stuy Height separate themselves from the rest of the folk in Bed-Stuy....I think that some of you only think about your selves and not Bed-Stuy as a whole you folks are disillusioned. We are all effected by crime no matter what block we live on... Stuyvesant Heigts has it's murders I remember very well so please do not act like your part of BED -STUY is any better! get a clue

Posted by: mysideofstuy at July 28, 2008 2:08 PM

7 and Five THANK YOU!!!!!! Finally someone with common sense...If we do not join together as a community how are we going to get rid of the social ills in our community??? not by separating ourselves and acting like we live in a bubble.....
man i sick of this look you folks in STUY height make me sick with you holier than thou attitudes

Posted by: mysideofstuy at July 28, 2008 2:12 PM

Easy, easy, 7andfive and mysideofstuy...let's not in fight.

The point is that there are good blocks and bad blocks in every 'hood. Stuyvesant Heights versus the area around the MYNT was just used as an illustrative example. I could have compared the Myrtle Avenue on the north side of Fort Greene Park to Dekalb on the south side.

I also remember very well those turbulent days...en'shallah we won't every see such a return to violence.

Also my name here is BEDSTUYHOYA and not stuyheightshoya for a reason...

Posted by: bedstuyhoya at July 28, 2008 2:18 PM

Therre are good and bad blocks even in Park Slope. Not trying to start anything here though!!!

And I am daveinbedstuy....I tell people I live in Bed Stuy. Most of them wouldn't know what I was referring to if I said Stuyvesant heights. And yes, it is snooty to say so.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at July 28, 2008 2:23 PM

We had "neighborhood-hypersensitivity syndrome"

and now we seem to have

"neighborhood within neighborhood-hypersensitivity syndrome"

You are my neighbors for crying out loud already. I hope you can hear me.

Sheesh!

Posted by: MacD at July 28, 2008 2:23 PM

intra- and inter-neighborhood hypersensitivity syndrome

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at July 28, 2008 2:25 PM

Whosa....whosa...my breathing method....I am just saying that whenever i hear someone from Stuy Heights separate themselves
from the rest of us it pisses me off.. look we are all not going to benefit if we do this we are a community and a very large one so why don't we start acting like one!

Posted by: mysideofstuy at July 28, 2008 2:25 PM

The area of Bed-Stuy near Restoration Plaza has lots of services, including trains (A/C/LIRR), supermarkets, banks and plenty of mom & pop shops.

Bed-Stuy, as many have mentioned here before, is huge. Taking one block and trying to make assumptions about the entire neighborhood just doesn't work, but it does get people talking (and fighting) which might be what teh NYT is trying to do.

what, as a former real estate agent, you helped create the mess you bitch about. Shut up with your crazy crap already.

Posted by: 11233 at July 28, 2008 2:29 PM

Boy you guys are so disillusioned it's not funny. I was born and raised in Bed Stuy! Plus if you think Bed Stuy has the amenities to justify paying all that money, you are going be in big trouble. Asshats the same things was said right before the great depression. Asshats say "we have reached a high plateau" and " Prices will never come down" but the market crashed. The Banks has to right off trillions of dollars in bad loans and the masses of asses are trying to justify their insanity on a message board. You have 90 days, please enjoy..

The What

Someday this war is gonna end...

Posted by: what at July 28, 2008 2:32 PM

Please, don't anyone bite on the 90 days thing.

Posted by: MacD at July 28, 2008 2:40 PM

"The area of Bed-Stuy near Restoration Plaza has lots of services, including trains (A/C/LIRR), supermarkets, banks and plenty of mom & pop shops."

That's funny! Did the MTA dig up a tunnel last night? Asshat you mean Nostrand Ave, right?

"what, as a former real estate agent, you helped create the mess you bitch about. Shut up with your crazy crap already."

Asshat, First I'm a Broker. Second the houses I sold was to people with the criteria to purchase a home income, credit and desire to be a homeowner. Not one house I sold went into foreclosure and I keep in touch with them.

"A/C/LIRR), supermarkets, banks and plenty of mom & pop shops."

Name a couple of these "Moms and Pops" shops..

"Shut up with your crazy crap already"

Nope I want to plow it up your asses. Douchebag!

To future Asshats: The present Asshats are trying to get you to move to a drug and crime infested areas. They want you to make the same mistake like them but, don't be fooled! Bed Stuy Brownstones are not worth 900k, believe me!

The What

Someday this war is gonna end...

Posted by: what at July 28, 2008 2:42 PM

What...if you want the future asshats to listen to you then you have to improve your English. As it is you come off as a raving lunatic.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at July 28, 2008 2:54 PM

Hey Dave, is that sheet rock on your head? Your "Business Partner" was showing you good jam.....

The What

Someday this war is gonna end...

Posted by: what at July 28, 2008 2:58 PM

What your fascination and fixation on things anal tells us one thing. Everyone here knows that. Once you're on the DL you never go off!!!!

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at July 28, 2008 3:04 PM

I think this thread is proving What's Cognitive dissidence point......

1st Comments like Dave's "There are good and bad blocks even in Park Slope." is a perfect example.

Of Course there are good and bad blocks in P.S. but come on - there isnt a single 'bad block' in P.S. that compares to the 'bad blocks' in B.S. in terms of per capita crime (both violent and non-violent), neglected and abandoned housing/lots, or lack of amenities/quality of life issues.

This is an objective fact - that anyone can verify with their own eyes as well as anecdotal and documented crime reports.

The other comment that I think is MOST relevant is the Whats when he says "if you think Bed Stuy has the amenities to justify paying all that money, you are going be in big trouble."

Thats IS THE POINT that so many miss - it is the price relative to what a house, block, neighborhood is today (and in the immediate future) that is relevant (especially when things are slowing down). The prices in Bed Stuy (and many other neighborhoods) more accurately reflected what the sellers/brokers were saying what the neighborhoods WOULD BE, not what they are.

Posted by: fsrg at July 28, 2008 3:18 PM

I live in Stuyvesant Heights and I only refer to it when giving the area in Bedford Stuyvesant. If we took a look at the old maps or looked at the old Brooklyn Eagle online you see the area is called Bedford or Bedford Corners (before 1890) in the east and there is another neighborhood called Stuyvesant Heights that has been around since the late 1700s http://www.neighborhoodpreservationcenter.org/db/bb_files/stuy-heights.pdf
in the west. Bed-Stuy is a name that pop up later as a nick name like Soho, tribeca, Dumbo etc... Clinton Hill is a new name is was simply called the Hill 100 years ago and Bed Stuy 20 years ago.

Posted by: Amzi Hill at July 28, 2008 3:24 PM

"Do you really think a $700,000 house is going to be selling for $420,000 and a $800,000 house is going to be selling for $520,000!!!!"

Yes:

House of the Day Nov 2007 - $630,000
http://www.brownstoner.com/brownstoner/archives/2007/12/house_of_the_da_417.php

Today, $489,000 and dropping...
http://www.corleyre.com/address.php?property_ID=102

Posted by: nosleeptil at July 28, 2008 3:26 PM

what, you grew up in Clinton Hill. I know that kills your street cred, but I am sure your criminal record makes up for that.

That is right, it is Nostrand. Good guess. (Not bad for someone who drives everywhere.)

You did sell houses to people and now you say they are worthless. Do you take pride in the fact that you sold people assets that have no value and cheated them out of money? Rhetorical question.

If you don't know of any of the mom&pop shops, it is because you never come to bed-stuy, sweetie. Why don't you stop by some day and learn a little something abuot our neighborhood.

The cursing is simply an indication that you are wrong, yet again. You really have no comeback for anything so you curse and race bait. Tired and played out, just like you.

Posted by: 11233 at July 28, 2008 3:28 PM

"Do you really think a $700,000 house is going to be selling for $420,000 and a $800,000 house is going to be selling for $520,000!!!!"

Yeah, sorry, Dave. But I think they will too.

Mind you, then we will probably BUY a house in Bed Stuy and be thrilled to have it... but, hey.

I was at a banker's party in a very fancy part of Manhattan this weekend and all I could do was stare at the recessed lighting, the granite countertops in the too-small kitchen, and the fake crown moldings on the sheetrock and think of all of you.

It was sort of sad.

Posted by: Heather at July 28, 2008 3:33 PM

nosleeptil...that is not a house that sold recently for that kind of price and it is not worth more than $500,000 given what it looks like and how far east on Decatur it is!!! Nice brownstones that have sold for $700-800,000 over the past 2-3 years in Bed Stuy are not going to fall 35-40%. You are comparing apples and oranges.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at July 28, 2008 3:43 PM

By the way, interesting to note that the mere mention of bed-stuy on Brownstoner results in at least 50 comments...

Posted by: bedstuyhoya at July 28, 2008 3:44 PM

Bedford Stuyvesant has all the amenities for the 100K plus residents that are there. This neighborhood is catered to the majority that has been there the past 70 years (Christian Black people). We have churches on every block, barbers and hair salons etc... Coffee houses, trendy shops etc... are not important right now to the majority.

Posted by: Amzi Hill at July 28, 2008 4:18 PM

daveinbedstuy, I'm not anti-BedStuy - in fact I'm looking to buy, but if you think houses are going to hold value because they are brownstones, you are sorely mistaken.

Prices rose because people jumped on a bandwagon, not because any sudden new high-speed train access to Manhattan. Nothing intrinsically changed the value of these homes except for the IDEA that values would rise.

People now realize that housing values need to rise for a reason - higher wages, improved schools, etc. As someone else posted above, prices need to come down to what Bed Stuy is TODAY, not what people HOPE it will be. When that happens, I will happily purchase a home there for my family and settle in for the long-run.

Posted by: nosleeptil at July 28, 2008 4:28 PM

@nosleeptil I agree with you 100% he is is right, we need to take care and solve the social ills of Bed-Stuy. I am tired of the gun violence and the attitude that people have by not telling the cops what and where a crime went down. I am rttired when i ssee folk who do not care about there neighborhood only because some do not own, I can go on and on but if we begin to tackle what the issues are and fight against it only then would our hard work pay off and trust me the community board 3 need to a little bit more like really bringing leaders down here to talk about the gun violence

Posted by: mysideofstuy at July 28, 2008 4:52 PM

I think that Decatur house is cute! But it's Ocean Hill.

I don't think prices rose because people "jumped on a bandwagon". I think they just discovered that Bed Stuy does have high speed train access and beautiful homes and enough non-trendy amenities to get by. That, plus the fact that the crime rate has gone down has made it a desirable place to live.

Posted by: rh at July 28, 2008 5:05 PM

yourside -its easier to get people motivated about double-parking outside churches than about gun violence.

Posted by: dittoburg at July 28, 2008 5:07 PM

"what, you grew up in Clinton Hill. I know that kills your street cred, but I am sure your criminal record makes up for that."

I said Bed Stuy.

That is right, it is Nostrand. Good guess. (Not bad for someone who drives everywhere.)

Nope Asshats I walk to places too

You did sell houses to people and now you say they are worthless. Do you take pride in the fact that you sold people assets that have no value and cheated them out of money? Rhetorical question.

Rhetorical Answer.

If you don't know of any of the mom&pop shops, it is because you never come to bed-stuy, sweetie. Why don't you stop by some day and learn a little something abuot our neighborhood.

"Our Neighborhood"?! Like you and I neighborhood or Asshat Stuyvesant.

The cursing is simply an indication that you are wrong, yet again. You really have no comeback for anything so you curse and race bait. Tired and played out, just like you.

No this is not cursing, Asshat! Long time readers of this Blog will tell you I don't curse. I have come down because I will drill my points!

Now let me tell you something you Kanas Newly Transformed Brooklyn Asshat! I will be here when the crash happens and you run back to "Flat Land"..

The What

Someday this war is gonna end...

Posted by: what at July 28, 2008 5:11 PM

"I don't think prices rose because people "jumped on a bandwagon". I think they just discovered that Bed Stuy does have high speed train access and beautiful homes and enough non-trendy amenities to get by. That, plus the fact that the crime rate has gone down has made it a desirable place to live."

Hey Asshat, You owe me a new keyboard! I spayed coffee over this one!

Methinks you cop too much of the cracky...

The What

Someday this war is gonna end..

Posted by: what at July 28, 2008 5:17 PM

Hey by the way there is a house up for sale on Greene Avenue Between Patchen Avenue and Broadway bed-stuy cusp Bushwick
I think selling for 480K 3 family anyone interested i will get the realtor's number and no i am not the realtor, but the
brownstone need work if i were buying i would make the offer low

Posted by: mysideofstuy at July 28, 2008 5:25 PM

"I said Bed Stuy."

And you have said Clinton Hill. You went to school at PS 56, right? That is Clinton Hill, sweet cheeks.

"Nope Asshats I walk to places too"

Price of gas finally getting to someone who can't earn a decent wage since your job requires English language skills you obviously never mastered in PS 56? Too bad.

"Rhetorical Answer" = I have no answer to the truth.

"No this is not cursing, Asshat! Long time readers of this Blog will tell you I don't curse. I have come down because I will drill my points!"

As a long-time reader, I know that you curse all the time. Cursing is a clear sign that you really have nothing to say.

And what is your point? That you, a real estate broker, who makes his living selling overpriced housing to people, has suddenly seen the light and realizes the error of his ways?

"Now let me tell you something you Kanas Newly Transformed Brooklyn Asshat! I will be here when the crash happens and you run back to "Flat Land".."

Now let me tell you something. I am from NYC. Since you are a troll, you should know all the boros I have lived in since I have mentioned it on this site.

I have always been here. I will always be here. Too bad your silly little attempts at being ghetto don't impress.

Your war was lost a long time ago. Not sure where you have been, but it is obvious that you have spent way too much time with your head up your ass. Asshat indeed!

Posted by: 11233 at July 28, 2008 5:30 PM

"And you have said Clinton Hill. You went to school at PS 56, right? That is Clinton Hill, sweet cheeks."

Yep but when I was going there it was bed stuy...

As a long-time reader, I know that you curse all the time. Cursing is a clear sign that you really have nothing to say.

Ok Whatever

And what is your point? That you, a real estate broker, who makes his living selling overpriced housing to people, has suddenly seen the light and realizes the error of his ways?

It was stupid back then! That's why I not involved with Real Estate.

"Your war was lost a long time ago. Not sure where you have been, but it is obvious that you have spent way too much time with your head up your ass. Asshat indeed!"

Not homeboy the war is still going on..

Stocks fall hard as financial worries take over
Home builders among shares getting slammed

http://www.marketwatch.com/News/Story/Story.aspx?column=Market+Snapshot

NEW YORK (MarketWatch) -- Stocks finished sharply down on Monday as worries about the economy and the troubled financial system overtook any cheer over a rescue plan for mortgage giants Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac nearing enactment.

See Asshat, your Government is going to bailout the Big Boys and leave you holding the bag. Maybe in 2013 when the thugs are stomping your ass you can tell them "The area of Bed-Stuy near Restoration Plaza has lots of services, including trains (A/C/LIRR), supermarkets, banks and plenty of mom & pop shops.". I hope they Gun -But you.. Heh heh, boy you are out of your league with me...

The What

Someday this war is gonna end...

Posted by: what at July 28, 2008 5:47 PM

"And you have said Clinton Hill. You went to school at PS 56, right? That is Clinton Hill, sweet cheeks."

Yep but when I was going there it was bed stuy...

As a long-time reader, I know that you curse all the time. Cursing is a clear sign that you really have nothing to say.

Ok Whatever

And what is your point? That you, a real estate broker, who makes his living selling overpriced housing to people, has suddenly seen the light and realizes the error of his ways?

It was stupid back then! That's why I not involved with Real Estate.

"Your war was lost a long time ago. Not sure where you have been, but it is obvious that you have spent way too much time with your head up your ass. Asshat indeed!"

Not homeboy the war is still going on..

Stocks fall hard as financial worries take over
Home builders among shares getting slammed

http://www.marketwatch.com/News/Story/Story.aspx?column=Market+Snapshot

The What

Someday this war is gonna end...

Posted by: what at July 28, 2008 5:47 PM

You are right, what, we are not in the same league. You are not very bright. Some day, if you ever learn to read and write, you too can join the majors.

You like to make the neighborhood out to be much worse than it is. It makes you feel more at home with people, like yourself, who have no social or English language skills. Unfortunately for you, those days are over.

No one is going to "Gun -But" me. You are just so sad and stupid.

Posted by: 11233 at July 28, 2008 6:00 PM

DING DING DING. KO. Down goes the WHAT! Down goes the WHAT!

Hey What! With a verbal a$$ beating like that! Don't ever claim bed-stuy again! Never! That was a friggin' embarrassment!

That is the best you can come up with?!?

But seriously, What. Keep on writing. I mentor a number of kids and I often use your tirades as examples of how not to express one's opinions. My kids love you and your antics. Please keep it coming...please!

Bravo! Nicely done 11233

Posted by: bedstuyhoya at July 28, 2008 6:34 PM

ha ha. Thank you, bedstuyhoya.

Posted by: 11233 at July 28, 2008 6:40 PM

The idea that people paying $1700/month to live on Murder Avenue are finding out that it isn't the East Village is kind of not so earth shattering if you ask me.

And, nosleeptil, Bed Stuy might be big, but Ocean Hill still isn't in it.

Posted by: serpentor at July 28, 2008 6:56 PM

I always thought that Ocean Hill was part of Bedford Stuyvesant like Stuyvesant Heights. In the NY times article they don't include Ocean Hill on the map but anytime someone gets shot in Ocean Hill they say its Bed-Stuy on TV or in the papers. I think Ocean Hill has a lot of charm architecturally.

Posted by: Amzi Hill at July 28, 2008 7:12 PM

Just got in - great discussion going on, people.

The What says - "Name a couple of these "Moms and Pops" shops.."

What, there are plenty of "Mom and Pop" businesses on the Fulton/Nostrand corridor. Just because they aren't fancy, or particularly upscale, does not mean they aren't viable, successful small businesses, which are the lifeblood of any neighborhood. Here are just some of them:

Bushbaby Coffee, Tony's Country Life Health Food store, Big Brother Hardware, First Vision Optical, The Gospel Den, Jeff's Express Moving, Nostrand Wine and Liquor, County Pharmacy, Flowerworks, Tastee Pattee Bakery, Dave's Brisket and Birdel's Records, which has been on both Fulton and Nostrand for the last 62 years. There are, of course, plenty more.

Next?

Posted by: Montrose Morris at July 28, 2008 7:53 PM

Brownsville, Stuy Heights, North Bed Stuy. I hate to say it, but I think we should let the realtors work their magic on this one and carve it up into more identifiable entities. Bed Stuy is too big and unwieldy to discuss in any coherent manner. That is why the mere mention of the nabe is good for so many comments. It's like the elephant being described by the blind men. Perhaps part of the problem is that we insist on such an obsolete definition.

The Pratt-Mynt/ Hassidim/ Marcy PJ corridor has a flavor unlike any in the city. It should have been discussed as such in the Times. There's a reason Zip Car describes Woodhull as bburg--it's no longer Bed Stuy. It ain't bburg, but that's another issue.

Posted by: Quincy at July 28, 2008 8:34 PM

Quincy you are right. That area of the neighborhood has a much different vibe than the southern end near Fulton Street. Even the young people that move into that part of Bedford Stuyvesant are more of the Williamsburg East village crowd as to the young new people that move to the southern end are the ex Ft Greene and Park Slope people. My tenants are from Park Slope and Many of there friends are moving to Stuyvesant Heights and Bedford Corners also. I don't think they ever been near this area in the article.

Posted by: Amzi Hill at July 28, 2008 11:31 PM

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/27/nyregion/27gentrify.html?ref=todayspaper

Dakota Blair acknowledges that both he and the apartment building where he lives are somewhat out of place.
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Ruby Washington/The New York Times

“It’s just sad that money can change a neighborhood.”
ROY VANASCO, owner of All Appliance Refrigerator on Myrtle Avenue, where developers have sought to buy him out.

Mr. Blair, 23, a software engineer from East Texas, pays $1,700 a month for a studio in what he calls the Yuppie Spaceship: a new luxury apartment building on an unluxurious corner in Bedford-Stuyvesant, Brooklyn. After nine months in the neighborhood, which New York magazine labeled the city’s “next hipster enclave,” Mr. Blair is considering moving out.

He figures that for $1,700, he could be living in Manhattan. There is a subway station down the street from his building at Myrtle and Nostrand Avenues, but it is for the G train, which does not go into Manhattan. Other neighborhoods eagerly anticipate the arrival of new cafes or restaurants, but on Myrtle Avenue, the biggest news is the opening of a Duane Reade pharmacy.

“The only thing keeping me here is my lease,” Mr. Blair said.

Even for hipsters, life in one of New York City’s frontier neighborhoods — long-troubled places at the fringes of gentrification — can be anything but smooth, particularly in these uncertain economic times.

New residents like Mr. Blair have grown frustrated waiting for change to come to Bed-Stuy, a north-central Brooklyn neighborhood with high rates of crime and foreclosures, trash-strewn streets and limited night life. And the owners of businesses that have recently opened to cater to this new population wait, in turn, for a surge that has not yet arrived.

Longtime residents concerned about the architectural and cultural fate of Bed-Stuy, the largest predominantly black neighborhood in New York City, relish the slow speed of change. But they still worry about rising rents and have become weary of living and working next to buildings that are new, sleek and, in their eyes, ugly.

Myrtle Avenue, which cuts across the northern edge of the neighborhood, is at a crossroads of the gentrified and the ungentrified. Down the street from where a shoeless man lay on a piece of cardboard on the sidewalk one recent afternoon, a two-bedroom condo was for sale at 609 Myrtle Avenue for $675,000. On one side of Myrtle Avenue are the Marcy Houses, one of Brooklyn’s biggest public housing projects and the former home of the rapper Jay-Z, where the average monthly rent, subsidized by the federal government, is $334. Across the street is the luxury building where Mr. Blair lives, the Mynt, at 756 Myrtle Avenue.

Along the avenue, there are building and roofing supply stores, auto shops and the twin red-brick smokestacks of the Cascade linen and uniform plant. There is a liquor store that advertises a “Birthday Special” — 5 percent off spirits and 10 percent off wines on a customer’s birthday. Into this mix came FreshDirect, the online grocery delivery service, which officially started delivering in April in Bed-Stuy.

There used to be a 12-foot-wide, blue-colored mural at Myrtle and Nostrand Avenues, diagonal from the Mynt. The painting listed the names of neighborhood murder victims inside the chalk outline of a body, an inevitable memorial in a police precinct where homicide was once a weekly occurrence.

Mr. Blair took a picture of the mural in January, but the snapshot is already an antique: Someone covered it up with a thin layer of concrete, and now only one side of it remains, a tribute to lives cut short — Hollywood, Danny Dan, Rocky — itself cut short. It reads “Rest in.”

The half-covered mural is an apt symbol of Bed-Stuy today: a changing neighborhood not quite changed, transforming not in broad strokes but in half-steps.

The average sales price of residential property and the number of sales in Bed-Stuy, Bushwick and other nearby neighborhoods have dropped sharply, according to a recent report released by the brokerage firm Prudential Douglas Elliman. The report found that from April 1 to June 30, the average sales price in the area was $500,925, down from $539,187 in the same period a year ago. The situation was different in the Greenpoint and Williamsburg area, where the average sales price was $663,946, a 13 percent increase from the same period last year.

There have been other signs of stalled growth.

Bed-Stuy had the second-highest number of foreclosure filings in Brooklyn last year and the fourth-highest of any neighborhood in the city, according to an analysis by the Furman Center for Real Estate and Urban Policy at New York University. Building permits have also dropped. In the first two quarters of this year, 50 permits for new residential buildings were issued by the city’s Department of Buildings in Community District 3, which includes Bed-Stuy. In the first two quarters of 2005, 93 such permits were issued.

Jonathan J. Miller, the president and chief executive of Miller Samuel Inc., a real estate appraisal company that prepared the Prudential Douglas Elliman report, said the impact of the credit crunch — tighter lending standards imposed by banks that have made it hard for many people to secure credit — is felt more severely in “emerging markets” like Bed-Stuy.

“The pace has slowed considerably,” Mr. Miller said.

Posted by: greendaniel at July 30, 2008 9:50 PM

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July 28, 2008

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