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July 31, 2008

Asbestos Warnings Near Public Place: Too Little, Too Late?

While Councilman Bill de Blasio's office says it distributed more than 300 fliers informing people that asbestos was being removed at a warehouse that'll be demolished in order to make way for the large Public Place development, some nearby residents say they were in the dark about the potentially hazardous procedure. "I live at 204 Huntington Street, the apartment complex directly opposite the warehouse and I never received anything in the mail nor was anything posted on our building’s board (we have A LOT of kids in our building and had a notice been sent or left, I or one of the many parents in the building would have posted it immediately both in the building and on our parents’ Yahoo board)," one resident told us yesterday. "This warehouse is directly across the street from a large public park yet there are no signs in the park warning parents about what is going on." A spokesperson for Councilman de Blasio's office said yesterday that asbestos removal at the warehouse "is done," and that "we spoke to the air quality monitoring company, and no asbestos entered the air in or around the site." Gowanus Lounge covered some neighbors' unease over lack of notification about the removal, which was occurring last week. A person who is a member of Community Board 6's Environment and Public Safety Committe wrote the following to GL: "Last week they removed 125,000 square feet of asbestos contaminated roofing in the open air with no DOB permits and no community awareness. As a nearby resident with a small child I feel at risk."
Confusion Over Public Place Asbestos Removal [Gowanus Lounge] GMAP

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I would be beyond furious. I Cannot understand how this could happen, and it seems to me that some reparations should be made or consequences come down.

With this kind of thing, no one will know whether little bodies or lungs were compromised for years. It makes me sick.

Posted by: Nokilissa at July 31, 2008 9:46 AM

If you moved into this area with a small child, you should not be complaining, because it's an obvious industrial zone. There is a concrete mix facility right there too, and it is a well known fact that concrete mix contains silica particles that can get in the air and rip your lungs to shreds in long term exposure.

Factor in the dirt and asbestos from the overhead train and BQE and it's clear that anyone moving into this part of BK looking for a 'green' healthy neighborhood is delusional.

Posted by: Knickerbocker at July 31, 2008 9:53 AM

asbestos worries are frequently overblown. it takes a lot of repeated exposure to asbestos over time to get sick. just being near it is not an issue. worries about removal are also frequently unjustified, as the containment procedures are pretty airtight when done properly and prevent particles from circulating beyond the removal site.

all of that said, though, if 125,000sf of asbestos was really removed in the open air without using proper containment procedures, then locals are right to be upset. but there is probably another side to this story.

Posted by: z at July 31, 2008 9:53 AM

The contractor is not required to notify anyone. Someone may feel like they are at risk but it doesn't mean that they are.

Posted by: route 10 at July 31, 2008 9:54 AM

Hey Nokilissa!

Unfortunately this is the reality of being in a construction- and-developer-driven city.This kind of thing will keep happening because the costs of taking extra care or doing a clean up makes a project more expensive and ties it up time wise. It's not right but it's more and more evident that the safety and quality of life of the average New Yorker or communities is not a priority.

Not for a minute do I think it was an oversight- this was a deliberate attempt to hide what they were doing until it was over and done with.

Posted by: bxgrl at July 31, 2008 9:56 AM

Bxgrl, your blathering nonsense continues to surprise me. Your continued desire to seek the most nefarious explanations for the mundane actions of others indicates you have a very twisted view of reality.

Typically, only people who work in asbestos manufacturing have anything approaching a significant risk of disease. For everyone else, the risk is fairly minimal. Your exposure risk, being proximate to this building, is no different than if you were in much of California where asbestos rock deposits are found in huge quantities.

Modern decontamination processes go on all the time in this city. There is no requirement to notify the public, nor is there any reason to.

Houses all over this city had and continue to have asbestos insulation. Would YOU go around and knock on your neighbors' doors to tell them you are decontaminating your place? If so, what radius distance from your home? one block? 10 blocks? A mile? THE WHOLE CITY?

Where does it end?

Posted by: Polemicist at July 31, 2008 10:18 AM

From what I could find out, there should have been notices posted on the building itself and asbestos removal is strictly regulated but I didn't see anything that relates to notifications to surrounding buildings in the area of an asbestos removal. But if neighborhood residents are concerned about the quality of the removal, they can probably check with the proper city agencies and see if the correct paperwork was filed and if the contractor was licensed.

Posted by: bxgrl at July 31, 2008 10:19 AM

Polemicist- once again you have decided to attack me. I could understand it if you were an intelligent person who could contribute something to a conversation but as you've proved over and over again on many occasions you are just a little know-nothing trying to pretend he's a grown up. I could list the many threads where you have been taken to task for your ignorant, ill-conceived and thoughtless commentary but why bother? I'm sure you'll be entertaining us again. Personally I don't take someone with the intelligence of a cockroach and the morals and ethics to match, very seriously.

And please- if you are going to put words in my mouth and extrapolate my entire mindset, you need to be far more educated and experienced than you so obviously are.

Posted by: bxgrl at July 31, 2008 10:37 AM

This is so stupid - if they had put up signs there probably would have been a community protest which would have delayed the whole thing for months (see Nokilissa's first comment - if she had her way I'm sure there would be a lawsuit). Thank GOD they didn't inform anyone since the risks are RIDICULOUSLY OVERBLOWN and they were able to proceed so that maybe, one day, we will have stores and park and apts here instead of a wasteland.

Posted by: gkw at July 31, 2008 10:42 AM

Maybe not. A little communication can go a long way. The city and agencies need to stop operating like they work in a vacuum. They're supposed to be representing everyone's interests, most especially taxpayers. If the community had been told what measures were being taken to protect them, they would have felt easier. If the neighborhood had all the facts instead of being kept in the dark, it would have been a non-issue. And what would have been the big deal? Instead, the community is upset and angry because they were made to feel powerless and treated as though they were stupid. Sounds shortsighted to me.

Posted by: bxgrl at July 31, 2008 11:04 AM

There is a daycare center kitty corner to the site. The children often play outside. Some of these babies are only three months old. A little warning and I'm sure some of the kids might have stayed inside.

Posted by: Shunt at July 31, 2008 11:15 AM

I found myself in a similar dither a few years ago when I saw the same notice on the building right next to mine - ASBESTOS removal? SCARY. Well, removing asbestos roofing is actually not that scary. It really doesn't get into the air - the asbestos is pretty well stuck inside the roofing -you'd have to throw it in a wood chipper or something to get it in the air. The people that remove it are licensed and the fact that the notice is posted (probably) means that they've hired a professional to remove it.

Posted by: WillBklyn at July 31, 2008 1:53 PM

Am I missing something?

As long as the asbestos abatement was done legally and in the right manner (air testing, abatement firm, etc.), what's the big deal?

Did they try to do a fly-by-night job or something?

As long as they do it the right way, what's the beef?

I removed asbestos from my basement and had a proper contactor from an abatement firm, air testing and sampling service, ACP-5, etc.

If it's being done the right way, excuse me for saying, but this is NIMBY B.S.

Posted by: Mr Joist at July 31, 2008 2:20 PM

First, this was reported on curbed a few days ago, and the notice WAS posted. Curbed showed the photo of the notice.

WillBklyn is the closest to the truth, asbestos in roofing material is pretty harmless, the correct term is 'encapsulated' by the surrounding material.

bxgirl, sorry to disagree with you here, the neighbors have no idea what the 'facts' are because knowing them requires an education in asbestos. You and Noklilissa are sorely lacking in it. Multiply this by the whole community and it's just a waste of time. Not trying to be insulting, merely stating the obvious.

To add what Polemicist has said correctly, over 90% of asbestos fatalities are people who have smoked. The average person can breathe huge amounts of asbestos, especially Canadian white chrysotile asbestos, which is probably what was used here. altho P, you're wrong about only asbestos workers getting sick; exposure to large amounts of asbestos in industries like construction, shipbuilding, and insulating has sickened many--smokers, usually.

Asbestos is a naturally occurring mineral that outcrops in several parts of the world, notably Canada and South Africa. There is asbestos in the air everywhere from these and man-made sources.

There may be few dozen people in NYC who know more about asbestos than I do, then again, there may not be. I owned a company that sold legal and safe asbestos-containing products, and was on the list of companies routinely sued by asbestos 'victims'. I've testified at more than one deposition on the issue.

Posted by: denton at July 31, 2008 2:24 PM

I live across the street from this place and it's not a matter of "NIMBY B.S." considering my "backyard" is an industrial wasteland. My issue is with De Blasio's office claiming they notified everyone in the area about what was going on. That's where I call B.S. Since it's across the street from a park and next door to a daycare center, the community should be notified when 125,000 square feet of asbestos is being removed (nope, not the same as taking it out of a homeowner's basement or roof). If this occurred near Carroll Park, you can bet De Blasio's office would have made sure everyone was notified. If not, there would have been riots in the street.

Posted by: Bookchick at July 31, 2008 4:07 PM

Hey BookChick:

There's a moniker I like. Are you on librarything? I'm a bookie , on LT under this same name.

If DeBlasio is a liar, that's something else.

But can we clarify the numbers? What was removed was 125,000 sft of asphalt roofing material, which contained some encapsulated asbestos component. Typically less than 1% by weight. There was not 125,000 sft of _asbestos_.

Posted by: denton at July 31, 2008 4:25 PM

no, I don't think if everyone would have been notified if across from Carroll Park. The more notification (which is not required nor specified how notification would work) the more the hysterical kneejerk self-entitled react to things they know too little about but can grab headlines and get their local politicians to pander to them and certainly get all the blogs to act like local news or NYPost and create something out of nothing.
(see all the hoopla about the probation office last week).

Posted by: Petebklyn at July 31, 2008 4:35 PM

Not as lacking as you like to think, denton and by the way that was an unnecessarily snarky remark. I happen to know much more than you think about the subject, and just because I have a different take on it doesn't make me stupid or ignorant. And fyi I wasn't talking about an education, I was talking about communication so people don't feel in the dark about what's going on around them. Communication- obviously somethin you and polemicist are sorely lacking adequate skills in.

Posted by: bxgrl at July 31, 2008 4:59 PM

Bxgirl, if you 'communicate' to the whole hood that there's gonna be an asbestos removal project, which is really just a roofing removal, is the hood gonna say thank you for the info? No, the hood is gonna whine and cry about it's unsafe and 'little bodies and lungs'. I like you, don't mean to be snarky, but none of your posts have addressed the technical issues of asbestos removal on this job. You haven't expressed your take on the job, only your opinion that better communication makes a better project. And in this case, I disagree.

Posted by: denton at July 31, 2008 5:54 PM

denton, on the other hand, perhaps better communication would promote better understanding. If the risks are as minimal as you say, it should be quite easy to ease concerns and quell any protests with cold hard facts and reason. And perhaps that would lessen "the hysterical kneejerk self-entitled" Petebklyn's concerned about, if indeed such reactions are unwarranted.

Posted by: Biff Champion at July 31, 2008 6:03 PM

Biff, Unfortunately I'm with petebklyn on this. After all, look at this thread!

Posted by: denton at July 31, 2008 6:37 PM

Why, because Nokilissa,and other parents are understandably concerned? Like normal parents? But instead of educating them or trying to put them at ease by giving them the facts of asbestos removal, the city (and obviously you) would rather keep them in ignorance? Not very smart. I don't supposed it ever occured to you that those people you claim are going to whine and cry, might not if they understood the process better?

The technical aspects of asbestos removal wasn't the point I was making,although it is quite obvious my statement, "Not for a minute do I think it was an oversight- this was a deliberate attempt to hide what they were doing until it was over and done with." you certainly agree with, based on your post @5:54. And FYI, since exposure to asbestos and other toxins is a possible medical concern for me personally, I have read up on it and I do know that a short exposure does not mean raging cancer, and that removal can be done safely. My comments were strictly about public policy and I stand by what I said.

Maybe next time you could take a little more time to read and understand what someone is actually saying before you decide to use insult instead of dialogue.I'm really disappointed -I expected better from you.

Posted by: bxgrl at July 31, 2008 7:46 PM

I have uploaded a picture of the roof of 455 smith for those who care to check it out.
Please notice the cross hatched marks visible on the roof. Those are saw marks left from the removal of the asbestos containing material.
Saws make sawdust... Asbestos sawdust... Small particles... Exactly the concern when dealing with asbestos.

Now I don’t suppose that anyone is going to die tomorrow because of this abatement but I do know this isn't the same thing as removing a little asbestos from a a residential basement.
I think that the community should be made aware before a project of this size and in this type of location starts.

Posted by: gowanus at July 31, 2008 8:05 PM

Posted the pic but is doesn’t seem to be up yet. Don’t know if Mr. B needs to approve pics and thats slowing it down. I will try again later and keep y’all posted but rest assured it helps put the scope of this project in perspective.

Posted by: gowanus at July 31, 2008 8:21 PM

Denton, you often seem to come off as some paragon of information and knowledge, our own little wizened martyr, who must educate,(insert sigh, eye roll) the dopey, patronize-worthy, knee-jerk reactive cows around you.

Its offensive and unnecessary. And not everyone agrees with you anyway.

I don't know much about asbestos removal, but would absolutely want to be privy to the kind of information we've seen in this thread, and be able to react in a way I deemed appropriate for the safety of myself and my children. If that means staying inside, then that's what I'd do. If it meant taking the kids elsewhere during removal, that's what I'd do. If it meant I needed to do nothing, that's what I'd do.

The important thing here is that I'd want the information.

Self-entitled? Give me a break. Entitled to important information about my family's well-being, or even the knowledge that I need not be concerned about it? YES.

Posted by: Nokilissa at July 31, 2008 9:09 PM

Sorry, NOK. I've tried to share knowledge I've developed from thirty years of industrial knowledge in the fluid sealing and motion control industries across the international marine, oilfield, local ship repair, power generation, and other industries. You have no idea the depth of my knowledge on this, yet when I share it, you belittle me.

Most of the posts on the topic do agree with me, if you count them.

Furthermore, the City has seen fit to allow the work to be done. There are no stop work orders on the site. Why is that?

You've got the information. There's no risk to your family. I too have a family, and I'd be the first to complain about a risk.

Gowanus, if you email me the pic I'll be glad to host it.

Posted by: denton at July 31, 2008 10:01 PM

No, you're not sorry, DENT. You're an ass. And once again, you make no mention whatsoever to the point of my email. I think your head, while perhaps filled, FILLED I tell you, with industrial knowledge, is also a foot thick.

It wasn't about the information, it was about your condescending and intentionally demeaning delivery. Funny how you now balk at my somehow belittling your attempts at "just giving the benefit of your information" when that was all I said I would have wanted (had I lived there), including the information ascertaining with certainty that we would be safe.

And fyi, I used to work for a state senator here in Manhattan and saw PLENTY of cases in which the City "saw fit" for some particular work to proceed in some particular neighborhood, when it most assuredly shouldn't have. So forgive me if I'm a little jaded.

Posted by: Nokilissa at July 31, 2008 11:10 PM

For those interested in seeing some pics of the site and my concerns you can check this out.

http://www.pbase.com/dentontay/asb

BTW- Denton was really helpful in hosting these for me.

Posted by: gowanus at August 1, 2008 7:00 PM

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July 31, 2008

Asbestos Warnings Near Public Place: Too Little, Too Late?

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