Open House Picks

The prices in Crown Heights, are those for real?

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 1:20 PM

those crown heights prices are a joke. overpriced by 50%. Lets check back on these in a few months a see how much they have been reduced by.

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 1:28 PM

Wasn't the 4th Street house already listed as either an OH pick or HOTD on Brownstoner? And I thought they had the price a hair higher before, at 2.995, no? The house looks nice, but not extraordinary plus there are some inconveniences i.e. no powder room on parlor floor. A lot of places, even the Corcoran 3rd St listings, seem to be getting price haircuts these days, so I suspect this one will too...

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 1:29 PM

these listings are hilararious. At least this site is good for comic relief.

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 1:32 PM

Market collapsing again today. Are the what's prophecies coming true?

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 1:43 PM

Considering the size and condition of the crown heights homes I don't think they are overpriced. They are on the high end of what homes go for in that neighborhood but then again they are not your typical brownstones.

The one on St. Marks is almost 7000 square feet. So at the asking price it is just barely over $200/foot. The Dean St one is 4500 square feet or $244/ft. That property also has an attached 2 car garage.

Maybe out of most people's price ranges in that area but not overpriced for what you get.

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 1:49 PM

Is that a housing project in the Corcoran picture of the Dean Street house?

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 1:50 PM

The Dean Street house is one of the most beautiful brownstones I have ever seen.
It looks like a great buy for a youngish family who wish to move beyond the whitebread neighborhoods.

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 1:51 PM

4th Street has been on market at same price for a while...

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 1:51 PM

The Dean st. house is gorgeous.
Can they move it to PS?

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 1:53 PM

How is the neighborhood for the Dean Street house?

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 1:54 PM

The crown heights house are nice, the neighborhood is not!

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 2:03 PM

1:54

Brink your kevlar vest and yamulke!

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 2:08 PM

is anyone planning to buy a brownstone out there?

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 2:14 PM

The 4th street house is so pretty but the paint colors are unbelievably hideous.

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 2:18 PM

nobody in their right mind would spend 1.5M for a house in Crwon Heights. They would be lucky if soemone bought it for $750k

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 2:19 PM

I'm looking for a brownstone in PS or PH. We've been outbid on the last 3 we were interested in!!!

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 2:27 PM

Brownstoner:

The Dean Street house is around the corner from where I lived in Crown Heights as a boy in the 1950s and 1960s.

Its intersection is one of he handsomest in the neighborhood, graced by two spectacular churches, and its block is lined with distinguished row houses where my pals and I played on the stoops and had stick ball games in the street.

The building across New York Avenue is either Mitchell-Lama or elders' housing that was designed by John Louis Wilson, the first African-American architect to graduate from Columbia and who worked on FDR's Works Progress projects in the 1930s. (The Harlem River Houses, an officially-designated New York City landmark, is one of his designs.) This isn't one of his best jobs, certainly, but typical New York modernist housing of its period. (It replaced P.S. 41, a wonderful Victorian-era pile where I went to kindergarten and first grade. That building was torn down long after my family moved from the neighborhood.)

What a steal! One bedrooms in my Manhattan co-op cost a million. Here you get a whole house -- and not just any house, but one that would be a standout on the Upper West Side or Park Slope.

Nostalgic on Park Avenue

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 2:32 PM

2:27 so how exactly does that affect this thread?

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 2:32 PM

2:27's comment was more related to this thread than yours is, 2:32 (#2).

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 2:34 PM

Good to hear from you, NoPA.

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 2:37 PM

"I'm looking for a brownstone in PS or PH. We've been outbid on the last 3 we were interested in!!!"

That's odd, given that they all seem to be selling for below asking price these days.

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 2:37 PM

"That's odd, given that they all seem to be selling for below asking price these days."

I've heard on this blog just this week about two homes in Prospect Heights selling for over ask...didn't the one highlighted here a couple days ago sell for over 200K over ask, in fact?

I've also heard stories about 1 bedrooms in PS going for over ask.

Yes, there are houses sitting, but perhaps those are not priced correctly. Just because someone is looking for a house, doesn't mean they'll just take anything for any price.

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 2:41 PM

if you are thinking of buying a brownstone - just take a few 100k and head to Atlantic City - the result will be the same.

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 2:42 PM

Last I checked, you can't live inside a slot machine, 2:42. Although from the looks of most of the people there, it wasn't for lack of trying...

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 2:43 PM

I'm just back from a meeting in Park Slope and on my way home saw Meryl Streep on 7th Avenue. Does she live over there?

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 2:45 PM

Lots of us are selling in Manhattan and paying cash for a house in Brooklyn, 2:47. That's what we did and at least 2 of our neighbors.

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 2:50 PM

All these houses are awesome. Crown Heights is really showing the beautiful it has. These houses are going to be very hard to get into soon... If this was 3 years ago these houses would have been off the market by now

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 3:05 PM

Condo owners in Brooklyn are doing the same thing, making sizeable downpayments, getting low mortages.

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 3:06 PM

Dave, we sold our 2 bedroom in Manhattan for 1.5 million (bought it for 300k) 13 years ago, so for some of us it just makes sense to move to Brooklyn and get a bigger space. Turns out we love Park Slope even more than Chelsea...

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 3:07 PM

this place looks nice too..

http://www.prudentialelliman.com/Listings.aspx?ListingID=948749&rentalperiod=&SearchType=houses&Region=NYC

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 3:11 PM

The other disadvantage...no Manhattan.

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 3:14 PM

dave and 3:07 are right on the money, that's exactly what we did too - turned a 500% gain on a condo into a 50% downpayment on a brownstone. the what and his ilk harp constantly on "wall street is crashing, no one can get a mortgage, hoard gold in your mattress, the end is nigh" - but it's just hysterical melodramatic rubbish. marginal borrowers are having trouble - people with plenty of cash and decent credit are having no problems. my partner and i work on wall street; we're in no danger of losing our jobs, and neither are the vast majority of the people we work with. in fact, the number of calls we get from recruiters looking to fill open spots on the street has actually increased noticeably in the past 2 months. headlines are nothing more than that.

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 3:24 PM

people pay way too much attention to the news, in my opinion.

if i didn't hear about the economy or recession constantly in the news, i honestly would have no idea we are in bad times.

i don't spend less, in fact i'm making more than i am last year, i have money in the bank, i don't buy gas, so i don't even notice. i go out every weekend, spend a couple hundred bucks on booze or whatever, go out to dinner whenever. and i'm not loaded. not even close, i'm a 30-ish person and i make 60k a year and own a small place in park slope.

so not everyone is in trouble, and to suggest so is just being fooled by the media, to a certain extent.

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 3:31 PM

katie m, we are in exactly the same boat. rates have gone up hugely, and we have not been able to find a jumbo anywhere for under 7.25% and they seem to be going up every week. as a result we're now looking for a cheaper place we can afford with just a conforming loan, but even those are going for about 6.5-6.6% now.

as for all the people on this blog who are untouched by the external economic climate, that's nice, but not everyone in New York bought something 5 or 10 or 15 years ago. for people trying to get into the market now, the prices here look completely crazy, relative to what you get. and it is just not the case that the NYC market can continue to be untouched by the credit crisis - once you pull first time buyers out of the market, there is no way there won't be a knock-on impact on prices.

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 3:45 PM

That's kind of my point, katiem633. 6.25% is an amazingly low rate in historical terms. Just cause 5.85% is insanely low doesn't mean 6.25% represents an actual problem. I don't think anyone's disputing that things have tightened up in the past year - but that's a good thing. People who can't afford a mortgage shouldn't be able to get one - in the long run it doesn't do them any favours.

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 3:45 PM

I'm curious how you're getting offered 6.25% from wells fargo for that big a mortgage, 3:36. just checked their website and the rate for a 600K mortgage with 50% down is 8.25%, in NY.

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 3:47 PM

We live right of Stuyvesant Ave in Bed-Stuy and that house is WAY overpriced to be between Patchen and Ralph. Once you cross over Malcolm X, everything just falls apart. There have been 3 murders in the past month on Patchen right near that street. All I can say is, not for $800k+.

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 3:59 PM

katiem,

Dave and all the others replying about how they paid for their houses are why you don't want to move near them. They live in million dollar houses but they can only afford them because of being in the right place at the right time. They bought low in Manhattan and then sold high. They aren't actually quality rich people like yourself who can go out and earn a high salary. Be glad you can't get a place next to them. They are essentially the beverly hillbillies. Low class, living high, ruining the neighborhood for real wealth.

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 4:38 PM

"i don't spend less, in fact i'm making more than i am last year, i have money in the bank, i don't buy gas, so i don't even notice. i go out every weekend, spend a couple hundred bucks on booze or whatever, go out to dinner whenever. and i'm not loaded. not even close, i'm a 30-ish person and i make 60k a year and own a small place in park slope.

so not everyone is in trouble, and to suggest so is just being fooled by the media, to a certain extent."

3:31 I hope you enjoy eating pet food because that's all you'll be able to afford when you retire or sooner if you lose your job. If you really only make 60k and spend 10k/yr on booze of your pathetic take home pay, I'm sure you are not saving enough. Let's hope you stay healthy even with all that drinking because you can't afford to get sick.

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 4:43 PM

The Bed Stuy house is in an awful location. You’re close to the A train, which is good but I would not pay over 600K for a brownstone east of Malcolm X. Actually even Malcolm X is too far east.

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 4:46 PM

I agree with 4:46. I wouldn't buy past Stuyvesant.

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 4:49 PM

So let me get this right 4:38, quality rich to you doesn't mean being able to put down 50% on a home purchase?

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 4:52 PM

"So let me get this right 4:38, quality rich to you doesn't mean being able to put down 50% on a home purchase?"

Not if you can only do it because you sold an apartment for a lot of money which you originally bought for nothing and you still earn nothing. then you are the same as the beverly hillbillies who found oil on land in their dirt poor neighborhood.

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 5:02 PM

In the late 70's and early 80's the interest rates were 10%- 13%.

You all need to do a little reading. I'd suggest buying now if you're going to or else in 3 years you may very well get a cheaper house in a prime area, but you're going to be paying the same mortgage payment, just with more interest.

These low interest rates are not here to stay.

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 5:26 PM

4:43, I bought a co-op, so I had to show at least a year's worth of mortgage payments in the bank after I put down the downpayment, so I've got a relatively healthy nestegg of sorts. I also make sure to deposit the maximum into my IRA every year and save about 500 a month otherwise. I'm doing just fine. I know this will shock you, but I do something I LOVE thus the reason for the modest salary. I have tons of freedom, am using my masters degree and look forward to going to work everyday.

I'll take that over a 300K salary anyday of the week.

I wasn't bragging, but just trying to say that me and a lot of the people I know would have no idea that the world was coming to an end, if not for reading the What's posts and a few NYTimes headlines.

I know there are people struggling, but these dire predictions about the Great Depression2 sound ridiculous.

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 5:34 PM

I see that ASSCLOWN is posting the same tired negativity here again. you all know what I mean, the coming "depression", the "meltdown" ad nauseum.
So here I go again with a towering, irrefutable fact:
WE AREN'T EVEN IN A RECESSION!
check out the latest numbers, last quarter GDP was up at 1.0%. Don't blame me, it's the same benchmark they've always used to define a recession (you need 2 or more straight negative quarters to call one).

So until we even get to the recession, this ASSCLOWN's statements aren't worth the hat he sits on.

also of note, new housing purchases were up last month as was consumer spending. oh, and last they checked, the sky had not fallen.

while I'm on the information tip, might as well get some political stuff out. In case many of you liberals are too insulated in your cocoons, Obama is not the inevitable choice. Let's highlight the differences:

Obama is against nuclear energy
McCain is for its use

Obama is for talking to Ahmedinajaad, Chavez, Castro, and probably Mugabi (he hasn't made an official statement yet)
McCain is not for talking to sworn enemies

Obama is for running out of Iraq, no matter what.
McCain is for not running out of Iraq, until a civilized/western style government is implemented, and even then (like Japan, Germany and Korea), we may have to stay to ensure our way of life is threatened, a la Ahmedinajaad, Castro, Chavez and Mugabi.

Obama is largely against the idea of the citizenry having access to firearms (in other words, THE 2nd amendment)from his support of the total ban on guns in DC.
McCain feels that the 2nd Amendment ensures all others, and the Supreme Court just agreed.

Obama is for gay Marriage, thus squarely against the 3 major American religions.
McCain is against gay Marriage, but for civil unions granting the same rights, but not changing 5 Thousand years of religious belief.

the list goes on.

Legion

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 5:46 PM

two corrections,

that paragraph on "ensuring our way of life" should read that he is for ensuring that our way of life is NOT threatened. but you should know that.

second, Obama may recently have changed his mind on gay marriage vs civil union. I still have to look into it to give a definitive yes or no. either way, he's changing his mind on so many things, it's kind of hard to keep up.

Legion

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 5:53 PM

Is that house in Bedford Stuyvesant or Ocean Hill?

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 5:56 PM

Hope no one here catches "Legionnaire's" Disease...

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 5:57 PM

4:38/5:02...your rent is due next Tuesday.

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 6:01 PM

Ocean Hill/ Bedford Stuyvesant boarder..... Ocean Hill is a subsection of Bedford-Stuyvesant in the New York City borough of Brooklyn. Founded in 1890, the neighborhood is part of Brooklyn Community Board 3 and Brooklyn Community Board 16.[1] The ZIP code for the neighborhood is 11233. The neighborhood has a diverse community with a large number of African Americans, and a small number of Caribbean and Latin Americans.

Ocean Hill's boundaries start from Broadway (Bushwick) in the north, Ralph Avenue (Bed-Stuy proper) to the west, East New York Avenue (Brownsville) in the south, and Van Sinderen Avenue (East New York) to the east.

Ocean Hill received its name in 1890 for being slightly hilly. Hence it was subdivided from the larger community of Stuyvesant Heights. From the beginning of the 20th century to the 1960s Ocean Hill was an Italian enclave. At that time the neighborhood had many well-kept homes and stores. By the late 1960s Ocean Hill and Bedford-Stuyvesant proper together formed the largest African American community in the United States.

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 6:03 PM

the houses on new york avenue are simply beautiful. this one one is no different. i love the way it wraps around the corner of dean and new york. it also has a 2 car garage which is rare in any neighborhood.

there is such history behind so many of the houses on new york avenue. take for instance the house labeled "the mansion". it was onced owned by one of the original founders of the ny stock exchange. it was also a school for autistic children before changing hands, then left abandoned for 30yrs. a couple restored it and it is simply beautiful. i heard they may put it on the house tour this year.

it is next to a house where a jazz legend once lived as well.

signed...loving brooklyn!

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 7:37 PM

Ugh, Legion. Blech. Go away. You are decidely ignorant of a number of issues.

The Supreme Court decision on the DC case specified that the arms were legal if KEPT in the HOME...not toted around town like in Texas or FL.

I didn't know we had 3 major "American religions"...hhhh... And, while we're on that topic. Many congregations are PRO-gay marriage. Hello. There are churches and synogogues that are basically "gay" anyway... Someday you'll have to tell me what the 3 major American religions are.

Obama is NOT for running out of Iraq. Hhhh...

For many people they are "in a recession". The poor are poorer and the "middle class" are poorer...there are more homeless people, hungry people...poverty in rural America is as astounding as it is in cities.

Legion, I'm giving you an assignment. Change your radio station to 99.5FM for two weeks and stop listening/watching just Sean, Rush and Michael during that time.

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 7:42 PM

Where's Nokilissa? She has been silent...I wonder if she bought this house or the Schloss Connelly or the more diminutive Schloss Prospect Place...I bet she and the family got the Prospect Place House!

FGG

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 7:42 PM

Correction:

Where's Nokilissa? She has been silent...I wonder if she bought the PH house or signed on the Schloss Connelly...I'll just bet she and the family got the Prospect Place House! I can sense it!

Good for them if they did!

FGG

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 7:44 PM

Nostalgia on Park Slavenue:

Sell and move back to Brooklyn!...unless it just ain't all that simply or easy.

Seems like you should come back.

I left P.A. and it was a relief. If you have kids in college, they may pout for a while that they can't come home now and again and "see their friends" in the area but they'll end up liking staying with you in a townhouse in PS.

If you don't have kids at all, then why worry? Just sell now and get on over the bridge! Park Ave is kind of stultifying.

Please. Think about it. Sell in Manhattan now and then wait a little for prices to soften in PS, BH, FG or wherever.

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 7:50 PM

I think once you hit Jumboland the mortgages hit the fan. Just closed with a 4170000 mortgage, the max conforming, and did no-doc with a rate under 6%. The games are still there but only if you have the coin to keep the mortgage under 417 and put 20% down.

But the days of getting a 1 mil 80% mortgage and a 15% second at the same time are over. But you could never pull that sh** off in a co-op anyway.

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 8:37 PM

7:50:

Thanks for the entreaty.

I've been coming back to Brownstoner all day to link with Corcoran's Dean Street Web page.

Believe me, I'm tempted -- especially by this house, which opened a floodgate of memories. (In the limestone next door, at the corner of New York and Pacific, lived a lady who was particularly generous Halloweens. My brother and I were sure to hit her apartment first thing every year!)

No doubt, if my parents left me a brownstone in Crown Heights and not their place in Manhattan, I'd be in the old neighborhood now. And if I didn't live in three cities around the world, I'd snap up the house on Dean. As it is, Park Avenue's just a pied-a-terre, and worry-free during my extended absences. (Building staff of 20; great security, etc.)

Houses like the one on Dean, as indicated in an earlier post, are for families. And New York Avenue, with its easy walk to Brower Park and the new Children's Museum, should make this house even more appealing for parents with kids.

My advice to them: Grab it!

NOP

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 8:40 PM

Legion sounds like an old redneck bigot from the south. Go on outside bigot and throw some more rocks at the kids in your yard. Maybe you can still make the KKK meeting tonight and burn some crosses in some gays and black people's yards.

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 8:47 PM

hey 7:42
1.Here's the actual court decision:
They struck down the 30 plus year law in Washington DC, that placed a ban on all handguns.
Bottom line, the Supreme Court has, for the first time, re-asserted the original language of the Constitution regarding a citizens right to bear arms. Meaning, a city or state cannot write laws banning guns for decent law abiding citizens. Learn to read PLEASE!

2.Regarding "three major religions": what's to argue?
80% of Americans believe in God. That number may be higher. Sorry to offend your secular sensibilities.
Christians are the majority of Americans, again, sorry to offend your PC sensibilities for stating that fact.
Judaism and Islam are 2nd and 3rd in numbers. This is where we are in America today, to state that there are actually major American religions is to offend these self-righteous secularists who are convinced they must have it right because they say it with sarcasm.

3.Obama doesn't want to "run out of Iraq"? lol, somebody better call his major electoral base, because that's exactly what the left wing is electing him to do. This brings up an intersting point: while, Barack comes to the national politic from the far left, watch how handily he swings over to the center and even to the right. This comes as no surprise as he's already thrown so many of his supporters under the bus; including his white "racist" grandmother, his pastor of 20 years and his long time economic supporter; that real estate developer who was recently arrested.

The next 6 months will be fun indeed.

PS; every real estate millionaire knows that the time to buy is when everyone else is scared. the sheep are waiting for the prices to climb again before jumping in. Your money is made when you buy the property, not when you sell it.

Legion

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 9:05 PM

4:38,

I'd rather be like Dave and the rest of the Beverly Hillbillies than like you - Unable to find a mortgage even though you make alot of money and have good credit.

Well Um fixin ta go now cuz Granny needs a helpin hand to skin the possum that Jethro and Uncle Jed just catched.

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 9:07 PM

The city, not a couple fixed up the house on NY ave. called The Mansion. It was awarded in a housing lottery to the current owners.

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 9:13 PM

"Obama is for talking to Ahmedinajaad, Chavez, Castro, and probably Mugabi (he hasn't made an official statement yet)
McCain is not for talking to sworn enemies"

Legion, That's my philosophy as well. You see I have some neighbors that are sworn enemies (who knows why, who cares now). I can't wait to get into fist-a-cuffs with them and slash their tires. Also, I'm gonna makes sure my kids will give their kids a shiner as they certainly well deserve it.

In fact I'm going to send my kids to iraq unlike that wuss Obama. We will give the iraqs freedom and the big old oil companies will do that country a favor and sell their oil and make the iraqs rich! Such humbling humility and love for the fellow man. If my kids buy the farm they are doing it for just cause.

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 10:31 PM

10:31
Please try to be more creative in your arguments, I alreay predicted the ever present s a r c a s m. like, oh my God. capital G.
I love it when liberals think that by just stating they are for "peace, love and happiness", it will somehow just appear in the world. Lets just ignore 10,000 years of recorded history in which man's struggle against tyranny is an ever present theme. Like it or not, evil exists. Look at Sudan, Myanmar (Bhurma), or the former Rhodesia if you don't believe me. By the way, the United States has had no role in these humanitarian tragedies. Ask yourself where the "United Nations" is on these matters, then ask yourself why the UN is busy writing condemnations of this most democratic and free of all nations on earth, while people are slaughtered by the thousands. Try for once to believe in your nation instead of taking the all too easy and b o r i n g route of "stylish" self-loathing. It is ultimately a vile form of vanity, for it feigns true concern for humanity at the expense of truth, and for what? To gain a false moral highground while ignoring the tide of despotism surrounding.

Legion

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 11:06 PM

Assclown.

I rest my case.

Legion

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 11:41 PM

just a few comments after reading this thread. first, congrats on everyone who bought before 03 and just won the NYC housing market lottery. HOWEVER, if people are having trouble getting jumbo mortgages, I would not count on those paper gains holding up well in the next few years. AND, going forward, you are going to have the opposite effect. That is, if i work my a$$ off and buy a 1.x million place, it is not going to double in 5 years and may even decline at least in real dollars.

On interest rates. How do you figure that the price will stay the same if rates double? If people can't afford the prices now, the prices will have to adjust so the cost of ownership is at least at parity. In the fixed income world, this is called convexity. Look at how the price of a bond is inversely related to prevailing yields. It works the same for houses (rates went down and prices went up, only there was a multiplier from easy credit that drove prices well past the historic mean trend). In addition, you have to factor in inflation to get real rates. When the mortgage rates were 10%, inflation was truly off the charts, so the real rates were not quite so bad.

Dude, if you make 60K and spend that carelessly, you are defn. of bev. hillbilly ilk. I make $200K, save aggressively and still can't afford a decent place in PS. That day will come, but I'm in no rush at this point. Will just keep socking away my cash for now.

Posted by: guest at June 28, 2008 12:23 AM

Legion,
This is 10:31
I'll believe in my nation when it's able to elect itself a leader that cares and embodies the virtues this nation should have in your latest rant. Nothing to do with liberalism, but with leadership.
"false moral highground" that spells it all out about current events and your writings. Do some self reflection.

Posted by: guest at June 28, 2008 12:28 AM

For what it's worth, I bought a one-bedroom plus office in Park Slope a month ago. Mine was one of 9 offers on the apt. It was on the market less than a week when all our bids flew in.

I don't work on Wall Street.

I didn't own in Manhattan.

And I don't miss my tiny West Village rental one bit.

Posted by: guest at June 28, 2008 12:45 AM

while the city did the basic work, i dont think they put in the chandeliers and marble and granite tile in the foyer. yes, they purchased it in a lottery but they added an additional 150k in additional work to the house. the couple, not the city continues to fix up the house. i.e. beautiful white fence and adding flowers and shubbery and other items inside.

Posted by: guest at June 28, 2008 8:59 AM

Ignore the troll that calls itself Lesion.

Obviously he is just a disaffected basement dweller.

Posted by: guest at June 28, 2008 10:27 AM

"There are thousands upon thousands of one-bedroom and two-bedroom condo owners in Manhattan with serious gains that only need $300-500,000 mortgages to buy $1.0-2.0 MM brownstones."

Right, whizkid. And what do they have to do to realize those gains? They need to S-E-L-L.

Inventory is already high and getting higher in Manhattan. You're saying there will continue to be folks selling into a down market to move to Brooklyn? What that will do is simply push prices lower in Manhattan. There go all those gains.

And as goes Manhattan...

Posted by: guest at June 28, 2008 11:52 AM

"it's just hysterical melodramatic rubbish. marginal borrowers are having trouble - people with plenty of cash and decent credit are having no problems. my partner and i work on wall street; we're in no danger of losing our jobs, and neither are the vast majority of the people we work with. in fact, the number of calls we get from recruiters looking to fill open spots on the street has actually increased noticeably in the past 2 months. headlines are nothing more than that."

I have a hard time believing that you work on Wall Street and are commenting on "calls from recruiters".

I actually do work on Wall Street. Have since 87. I have NEVER seen it this bad. Not in 87, not in 90/91, not in 98, not in 01/02. The headlines read that the investment banks are laying off employees by the thousands. You know why the headlines say that? Because investment banks are laying off employees by the thousands.

I'm on the phone with friends at other banks every day, and it is a bloodbath. People who survive will be paid a pittance this year, unless you are fortunate enough to work on the Anheuser Busch deal, and that may not even happen.

"headlines are nothing more than that" Spoken like a true imbecile.

Posted by: guest at June 28, 2008 11:59 AM

11:59 - Maybe you and the people know just aren't quality enough to get aggressively recruited. I was here for 91, 98, and 02 as well, and this just isn't that bad. I'm not old enough to have been here for 87, but my dad was in the business back then, and in his opinion that was def worse than this as well.

I also think that anyone who works in finance and expects job security didn't do their homework before they signed on. The hand on the shoulder can come at any time. That's just the way it is. If you don't like it, try civil service.

Posted by: guest at June 28, 2008 12:22 PM

Bankers don't buy in brownstone Brooklyn, 11:59. The vast majority of homeowners and renters here work in the arts and media. According to what everyone knows and based on recent stats too. We ourselves know about 25 of the homeowners on nearby blocks in our neighborhood and not a single one works on Wall Street. They are all in design, architecture, arts or media. White and black both. Of course a bad economy will affect everybody. But if you're saying things won't be selling in Brooklyn because bankers can't buy properties, sorry, that doesn't affect Brooklyn. You're thinking of Manhattan and Connecticut.

Posted by: guest at June 28, 2008 12:27 PM

You must live on the "other" side of the tracks, 12:27, because here on the nice side, we have tons of Wall Streeters as neighbors.

- North Sloper

Posted by: guest at June 28, 2008 12:49 PM

Whatever motivated the Supreme Court's gun decision, one thing it could not have been was "original intention." The 2d Amendment is so badly drafted, presumably, because it was the product of a committee that wanted it to mean nothing at all: they couldn't agree on substance but needed to do something.

More importantly, even if the original authors had an intention other than to blather meaninglessly, it couldn't have included protecting handguns or assault rifles. Neither existed at the time.

Posted by: guest at June 28, 2008 1:08 PM

- 'bearing arms' still had a heraldic meaning in the 18th C. 'a well-regulated militia' is also pretty clear.

- the Dean St. house could be very nice, I think

Posted by: guest at June 28, 2008 2:04 PM

Why on earth would that be something to brag about, NorthSloper at 12:49? You're hilarious. I've never heard anybody brag about anything in Brooklyn but the fact we have LESS Wall Streeters here.

And besides sorry you're actually wrong, the recent stats I was referring to were from Park Slope. AND when we lived in Park Slope (up until a year ago) our entire coop building were people in arts/media.

But if it's true North Slope is full of bankers you've only made me feel incredibly relieved we sold and left when we did. I'd rather not live alongside Republicans, thank you very much.

Posted by: guest at June 28, 2008 2:04 PM

Ok, then we have no Wall Streeters at all in the North Slope.

These 3 million dollar brownstones are being bought by graphic designers.

Posted by: guest at June 28, 2008 3:08 PM

the area of the north area of park slope is my favorite area in brooklyn. i don't care if a few of the people work on wall street, arts, media, or trash collectors. the streets are amazingly beautiful, tree-lined, some of the most handsome architecture in the city in my opinion and steps to transportation taking you to manhattan in 15 minutes. all within walking distance to a 100 restaurants, shops, bars, a museum, a greenmarket and one of the nicest urban parks in the country.

whenever i go visit my friend there, i think about how nice it would be to live there.

Posted by: guest at June 28, 2008 3:13 PM

I dont think 12:49 was bragging, but rather simply stating an obvious fact about his/her neighborhood. Brooklyn Heights has more Wall Streeters than any other Brooklyn neighborhood, and it's also the most expensive in the borough (the townhouse market probably double what it is in any other Brooklyn neighborhood). So obviously SOME people do want to live alongside "Republicans"

And I'm not one nor do I live in either neighborhood. Just stating what I thought was an obvious fact.

Posted by: guest at June 28, 2008 3:16 PM

ooops...i'm 3:13 and my first sentence has the word area in it 3 times.

doh...

Posted by: guest at June 28, 2008 3:17 PM

3:17

Take the word "area" and assign a numerical value to each of its letters based on their position in the alphabet (1,18,5,1) then add them together, you get 25.

Multiply 25 times three (you used it three times in one sentence), and you get 75.

7+5=12

1+2=3

Spooky, huh?

Posted by: guest at June 28, 2008 3:56 PM

just because you work on wall street doesn't mean you are republican. in fact, at both companies i have worked for (a broker and a hedge fund), most people are democrats. that is just an old stereotype. btw, i work on wall st., rent in the north slope and plan to buy here when i get a down payment saved up (and once prices mean revert). no rush though and i don't need any broker follow-ups about why i should buy now. i've heard it all before. closing costs alone on a new condo which is likely to drop by 20% in the next year would cover my rent for two years.

Posted by: guest at June 28, 2008 4:02 PM

I have to admit...I really love the North Slope too...despite all the negative press about the hood, I am still always blown away when I walk through some of those named streets near the park. Something about those streets feel so grand, yet comfortable and inviting all at the same time. 3rd Street is gorgeous, but it's a little too much for me.

When we talk on this blog, we should remember the things we fell in love with about these neighborhoods too, instead of constantly ripping every single thing to shreds. I know that can be fun too, but let's not forget how freaking beautiful this place is. It truly is an urban oasis in the middle of the largest megalopolis in the country.

Posted by: guest at June 28, 2008 4:55 PM

"11:59 - Maybe you and the people know just aren't quality enough to get aggressively recruited. I was here for 91, 98, and 02 as well, and this just isn't that bad. I'm not old enough to have been here for 87, but my dad was in the business back then, and in his opinion that was def worse than this as well.

I also think that anyone who works in finance and expects job security didn't do their homework before they signed on. The hand on the shoulder can come at any time. That's just the way it is. If you don't like it, try civil service."

That's funny, because the wall streeters I know are MDs at Goldman, Lehman, Citi, JPM, Deutsche. In banking, in equities, in fixed income. I myself have been in M&A for about 20 years. I suggest you speak to some people who actually work on wall street on the client side. I'm not sure what you do, 12:22, but your understanding of what is happening on wall street right now is so off it's laughable. Sorry, but I truly have a hard time believing you are close to the action at all. Tell me, what area are you in?

I have been getting calls from plenty of folks looking for a job. They talk to recruiters all the time. In this environment, recruiters are worthless.

Two weeks ago I chatted with a recruiter at one of the top firms whose focus is investment banking. Her words: "It's abysmal. Maybe I should just take the rest of the year off."

Posted by: guest at June 28, 2008 5:44 PM

Not to mention, 12:22, are you aware that this time around most mid-level and senior bankers have seen their nest eggs decline by over 50%? 70% for Lehman. 95% for Bear.

Trust me my friend, '87, '91 and '98 don't come close to this mess. '01/02 might, only in terms of the # of layoffs (so far), but bankers didn't lose as much of their net worth in '02.

Posted by: guest at June 28, 2008 5:55 PM

This cutback on Wall Street may be painful now, but it's also a great thing for this city in the long term. We need a more diversified economy, and having 1 in 5 jobs tied somehow to a Wall Street job is not something we want to continue. This forced diversification of the New York City economy will create for a healthier economy down the line.

Just be patient. These things always go in waves. We just had a huge wave and in another few years, this will be a thing of the past. In the meantime, enjoy your family, go discover some of the terrific things you can enjoy for free in this city and hold tight. People in this world go through a lot worse than having their 2 million dollar homes go down in value by 20%.

Think about the big picture a little more and look outside your bubble.

Go take a walk and rediscover what it is that makes New York so special to you.

Posted by: guest at June 28, 2008 6:06 PM

Back to the topic of houses, both of these Crown Heights houses are architectural beauties on 2 of the best blocks in Crown Heights. Unfortunately, I do agree that both are priced too high, especially what is probably the better house, the one on St. Marks.

Thanks for the info, NOP, I did not know that the StuyPark House was designed by a black architect. That is the high rise modern building referred to as “projects” across the street from the Dean St House. It has a high concentration of active senior citizens, and may be Mitchell-Lama, and is certainly very well kept and quiet. The building was built on the site of a school, which Nostalgic on Park, as well as many of my friends who grew up here, remember well. Across the street from this house are both of the churches shown in the listing, and those are both masterpieces of sacred architecture, especially the brick Union United Methodist Church. Both of the blocks these houses are on are two of the most photographed and mentioned streets in Crown Heights, and are a pleasure to walk down.

Since I live a block from the Dean St house, I’ve seen the sellers fixing up their house for the last 7 years. I’ve only been to the doorway, and have seen the staircase, which is beautiful, but haven’t seen the rest of the house. But because of the corner location, the size and scope of the house, as well as the two car garage, I can see them getting pretty close, if not making it to a million dollars. A one family across the street from this house, sold by the same agent, went for over 900K last year, or the year before, and this house is much bigger. It only takes the right person to go for it, despite the scorn and ridicule of many on this thread.

The St. Marks place is a massive house on a truly impressive block. (Both blocks are landmarked, by the way.) Buying this house would really be an investment looking towards the future, as it is a case of buying a fixer upper on what could arguably be the best block in Crown Heights. This block boasts the last free standing mansion of the Gilded Age of the St. Marks District, as it used to be called, which is the Dean Sage House on the corner. It also boasts 2 semidetached Montrose Morris designed houses only a couple of doors down from this one, one of which has an amazing turret and loggia on the upper floors, as well as a very large intact carriage house in the back. With the notable exception of a hideous Fedders house in the middle of the block, as well as a misplaced modern Baptist Church, every other house on this block is a huge, beautiful gem. The new Children’s Museum is directly across the street, as is an elementary school and Brower Park is behind them. Most of the houses on this block have been in the same families for generations, and most are exceptionally well cared for. This was Crown Height’s Gold Coast, and will be again.

That said, assuming that the house needs mucho work, I think the seller is pricing it as if it were completely renovated and you only need your toothbrush and towel to move in. It’s way too expensive for where we are now, and for the economy, and I predict they will have to go down in price considerably. As a comp, the completely renovated, modernized down to the central air and wine cellar mansion on the other side of Brower Park, at 1094 Park Place, a past HOD garnering much discussion here, is listed at $1.395M, and that one you could just bring your toothbrush, and after a year, still no takers. This house is certainly worthy of a decent price, and certainly a top notch renovation. I plan on going to the open house because I never turn down a chance to see the inside of a house on that block.

Sorry about the length of the post, but both of these houses are worthy of lengthy discourse, not just the usual “Crown Heights? Are you nuts?” dismissals.

- Montrose Morris

Posted by: guest at June 28, 2008 6:07 PM

"This cutback on Wall Street may be painful now, but it's also a great thing for this city in the long term."

5:55 here. I agree on some level. When I first joined Wall Street, it did not dominate the landscape as it does today. This is very very healthy for NYC in terms of diversity, arts and culture and the general balance of professions in the city.

Why? Simply because NYC will be more affordable. In other words, because real estate values and rents will decline (are declining). That will be the single strongest driver towards greater diversity in the city.

The downsides are many, however, including:
- Economic suffering for most non-Wall Street industries in NYC
- Municipal budget cutbacks (decreased services - already happening w/MTA). This will hurt SCHOOLS and SAFETY as well.
- Greater crime (let's hope this doesn't happen, but naive to think it won't)
etc. etc.

There's a cloud to every silver lining.

Posted by: guest at June 28, 2008 7:15 PM

4:02 here again. i have to back up 5:44. i have not been on wall street nearly as long, but was back office in 01 (switched to equity side in 04) and remember the pain. this feels way worse to me. all my former colleagues at a big broker (you would know the name) are very unhappy/freaked out right now. i have friends at bear. some found jobs, some didn't. i hear of hedge funds liquidating and doing poorly every day. SAC (one of the most successful hedge funds) just announced it is shutting down a division and firing all the staff from it. this is already very bad and it is certainly getting worse. if we have a commercial leg (which is a real possibility) to the downside this cycle, the only comparison we will have is to the great depression. i certainly hope some of these people ONLY lose 20%. none for me, thanks.

Posted by: guest at June 28, 2008 8:23 PM

Montrose Morris:

That was an excellent, information-filled post, well-balanced, and useful for anybody thinking about the Crown Heights houses.

I learned about Wilson, the architect, when I was writing an undergraduate New York history paper at Columbia and went to his office on 125th Street. There, on the wall, was a technicolor rendering of the New York Avenue apartment house. When I learned the address, my heart sank. (Today, of course, developers are smarter, and would have included wonderful P.S. 41 as the building's base featuring duplex "loft" units in the former high-ceilinged classrooms. I wish!)

Wilson was one of those grand old men, perfectly dressed, with an aristocratic mien, and flawless diction. He may or may not have met FDR, but I could easily imagine him sharing a martini during one of the president's famous cocktail hours (Ivy Leaguer to Ivy Leaguer -- at least as they were back in the 30s). His favorite story: Being turned down at a well-known architectural office because he was African American only to be asked decades later to renovate one of the office's buildings!

As for the Dean Street house, I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one (the only time I've had an issue with you in Brownstoner). It may be smaller, but it's certainly better than the St Marks number. Sure the latter is magnificent, but from what I can see, its facade has been stripped up top while the Dean property appears to be in original shape. And the plan is wonderfully flexible and livable.

I was so convinced of it that I even asked my brother whether he'd be interested in taking a look with me. He also keeps a place in town and this could give us a chance to consolidate. My pitch: the garage, where he could store his Jeep on his trips down from Maine. He thought the house is great, but his girlfriend is a born and bred East Sider and never thinks of going east of Lexington Avenue.

"Maybe in ten years," he said. So, if some time a decade from now you see a couple of old duffs pottering around one of those Crown Heights beauties, come up and say hello.

NOP

Posted by: guest at June 28, 2008 9:34 PM

i agree with all the wonderful things being said about crown heights and the north slope.

all nice stuff to hear among so many negative posts.

Posted by: guest at June 28, 2008 10:23 PM

For those thinking about buying at current bubble prices, this missive from one of the economists who actually noticed the bubble early on might be interesting. NYC is running a bit more than a year behind the national leaders in this cycle:
http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?article=the_meltdown_lowdown_062708

And the Bubble Keeps on Bursting

The new Case-Shiller housing data showed that prices kept plummeting in April. Real house prices in the 20-city index were falling at close to a 26 percent annual rate over the months from January to April. Since their peak in the summer of 2006, real house prices have dropped by more than 23 percent. This means that we're probably a bit more than halfway to the bottom of the bubble.

Prices in the most rapidly deflating markets are dropping much faster. In the last three months, real house prices in Phoenix, San Francisco and Miami have all fallen at close to a 40 percent annual rate. The implications of this rate of price decline are incredible.

Imagine you had paid off 20 percent of a mid-priced home in the San Francisco area as of January. This would have given you approximately $136,000 in equity on a $680,000 home. Three months later, that home is $597,000 and your equity stake is down to $53,000. In three more months at this rate, you will be underwater. Such are the joys of home ownership in a collapsing bubble.

Of course, it is not gloomy for everyone. Imagine that you are a wise renter who was thinking of buying a mid-priced home in the SF area. You are now $83,000 richer as a result of your decision to wait. That's not bad -- you get almost $28,000 a month for not buying.

Posted by: guest at June 29, 2008 9:24 AM

NOP, it would be very cool to have you as even a part time visitor to the old nabe, and having your brother own it would be quite an amazing return. The Dean Street house really is great, and I get your point. The facade on St. Marks has been altered, and the curb appeal of Dean St can't be denied. I confess to a partiality and fascination for that block of St. Marks, however. When I lived in Bed Stuy, I used to go for long walks over here, and I distinctly remember "discovering" this block, and couldn't believe how magnificent it was, especially after also "discovering" the block on Park Place with the old Methodist Home, as well as the block of Prospect Place between Nostrand and New York, also chock a block with magnificent and stately homes. I never get tired of walking around here, and have collected many more wonderful and interesting blocks tp add to my favorites list.

Your story about the architect, Mr. Wilson, reminds me of perhaps the most well know African American architect, Paul R. Williams, who, as I am sure you know, practiced in Southern California from the 1920's through the 1950's. There is a famous story about him where he would never offer to shake hands with his white clients, to avoid any awkward social situations where they would not shake hands with a black man. Hard to believe in this day and age, yet not all that long ago. In spite of the prejudices and bias he often suffered through, his career was amazing, and body of work impressive, his talent was awesome, and his personal story quite inspiring.

I would love to get some more information on our East coast Mr. Wilson from you, and in the meantime, will do some research on my own, as this is important to me, and the community. Thank you so much for that tidbit. Hope you attend the open house!

Montrose Morris

Posted by: guest at June 29, 2008 9:59 AM

holy yikes!

Posted by: guest at June 29, 2008 11:20 AM

yikes...what happened?

Posted by: guest at June 29, 2008 12:32 PM

I just keep asking myself if the Brownstoner blog really needs hundreds of copies of the same novella?

Posted by: guest at June 29, 2008 5:20 PM

9:24: You are an idiot.

You don't lose equity if you have already put the money down or payments on your mortgage have gone to principal. Your mortgage doesn't change either. You only have an issue if you try to sell.

It is obvious that you have no concept of how a mortgage works. Keep renting and helping to pay your landlord's mortgage.

Asshat.

Bitter renter = fuzzy math wiz

Posted by: guest at June 29, 2008 5:40 PM

^^ I hope this asshat is just a bot. if not, you have a seriously deranged and pathetic individual on your hands ^^

Posted by: guest at June 29, 2008 8:02 PM

Decatur:

"professionally landscaped garden"

Who they think they kiddin'?

Posted by: guest at June 29, 2008 9:49 PM

"I'd suggest buying now if you're going to or else in 3 years you may very well get a cheaper house in a prime area, but you're going to be paying the same mortgage payment, just with more interest."

You're assuming the absense of a growing savings account. More money down on a cheaper house. Same monthly payment (including interest) and maybe even lower. Not everyone blows away the savings between renting and buying in this assinine price environment. Bad assumption. Miserable argument.

Posted by: guest at June 29, 2008 11:24 PM

Montrose Morris (and others):

Did you visit the Crown Heights open houses?

Anything to report?

NOP

Posted by: guest at June 30, 2008 12:16 AM

"9:24: You are an idiot. You don't lose equity if you have already put the money down or payments on your mortgage have gone to principal. Your mortgage doesn't change either. You only have an issue if you try to sell.
"It is obvious that you have no concept of how a mortgage works. Keep renting and helping to pay your landlord's mortgage.
"Asshat.
"Bitter renter = fuzzy math wiz
Posted by: guest at June 29, 2008 5:40 PM"

Wow. Rude name calling and doesn't even know what "equity" means. Maybe you should do a little remedial kindergarten.

Or is this a new manifestation of the bubble: do overpriced houses now come with a guarantee that owners can't lose equity!? Is that a natural law, a covenant given at Sinai, or just a perverse way of expressing extreme faith in the skills (and goals) of the Federal Reserve?

Leverage works to amplify your losses on the way down just as it amplifies gains on the way up. Anyone who doesn't understand that really doesn't understand how mortgages work.

Posted by: guest at June 30, 2008 12:44 AM

"Leverage works to amplify your losses on the way down just as it amplifies gains on the way up."

Yup. Owing more than your home is worth. "Underwater" if you will. Bloop bloop bloop...

Posted by: guest at June 30, 2008 10:37 AM

NOP, I went to the St. Marks house. I passed the Dean St house coming and going, and there were quite a few people there both times, so it looks like they had a good turnout. Since I did not go in, I can’t comment on the house, except its exterior, but since I live almost as close to NY Ave, I have to disagree with the poster complaining about the noise from the bus. I don’t even hear it anymore, and my corner has the bus stop, unlike Dean Street. The traffic can get backed up, and quite busy, but this is New York, I don’t expect a country lane. Unless there is a jam and people start honking, I don’t hear traffic at all, and I expect whoever buys this house wouldn’t either.

St. Marks house: They called it Millionaire’s Row, so I expected rich detail and I wasn’t disappointed. Wow. They must have deforested a whole mahogany forest for this place. The parlour floor has woodwork and detail for days. Nice wide 23’ house. Beautiful built-ins, all on angles in corners, so no room is completely square, including the placement of the fireplaces. I loved it. That said, it does need a great deal of work. Deferred maintenance issues, mostly. The usual – plumbing, electricity, new kitchen(s), bathrooms, HVAC, some leakage issues, some new floors where leakage, and general restoration of rest of floors, and the usual cosmetic goodies. The top two floors probably were rented out, so there are some partitions to knock down to open it up again. Lots of beautiful dressing rooms between the bedrooms, but all need much work to restore. It is essentially a one family, although they obviously rented out rooms on the top two floors, and there are the remains of another kitchen on the top floor. Back yard is clear, just needs deforestation and landscaping. No trees.

Someone did some dubious exterior work on the top floors of this and its adjoining twin, and the period façade is not intact, but that could be corrected with some imagination and dollars. It is next door to those gorgeous Montrose Morris gems, and the side windows of the house, especially on the upper floors, gives you a wonderful view of the gables and varied planes of the slate roofs of both the house and the exquisite stone carriage house behind it. As an architectural nut, and great admirer of my nom de plume, that is a worthy bonus for me

It would be a labor of love to restore this house. It would make a great B&B, or house for a large family, as it would be a shame to cut it up. It will take quite a bit of money, and would not be for the faint of heart. Why can’t Lotto pick my numbers? So unfair!

- Montrose Morris

Posted by: guest at June 30, 2008 10:44 AM

Thanks for the update on the St Marks house, Montrose Morris. Sorry you didn't get inside to report on Dean Street. A prior poster indicates that it, too, needs a lot of work. Wish I had the time to restore a house.

By the way, if you Google John Louis Wilson, you'll find his obit (he died in '89 at the age of 91!) as well as some pix of him at an anniversary of Harlem River Houses (at the tender age of 89).

There he is, ramrod straight and in a three-piece suit, among the last of an old-world type. (I was surprised to learn he was originally from Mississippi; I don't remember an accent at all.)

Now there's a gent who'd be comfortable in Crown Heights Millionaire's Row, although he's pictured with David Dinkins, which makes me think he was a member of Harlem's elite, probably ensconced on Sugar Hill since the 1930s.

Wonder what he'd think of Obama-nation.

NOP

Posted by: guest at June 30, 2008 12:33 PM

wow, 12:44, you are a moron. Unless the person sells the home, there are no gains or losses.

You freaks who think the prices are going to tank should point out when are where this is going to happen. Your scare tactic that it could be at any time are just pathetic. The great boogy man that could come and snatch you in the night when you are not watching!

Isn't happening and your attempts to fight the bitter renter tag fail miserably.

Posted by: guest at June 30, 2008 7:42 PM