Not-So-Bitter Renters Embrace Brooklyn

I really enjoyed this article. That said, I was shocked at how high the rents in Brooklyn have become, as my wife and I own and are out of the loop about the rental market. I never thought I'd see the day where an apartment in Bed-Stuy rented for $2550 a month, especially the Mynt, which doesn't have the best public transit options. How times change.

Posted by: guest at June 16, 2008 9:41 AM

$2550 a month to rent in bed stuy = idiot

Posted by: guest at June 16, 2008 9:46 AM

When do you ever see a young person in there late 20's or early 30's buying a brownstone??? I just bought a condo in the area and would rather have a brownstone but cant afford it and dont have the time to remodel it... This article makes no sense what so ever its stating the obvious. There will always be a demand for brownstones throughout Brooklyn....

And btw this guy is paying $2,550 to rent in BedStuy??? Why would someone pay that much to rent in that area??? The funny thing is he can buy a condo in that area and probably get a good deal and his mortage may be less than his rent is right now...But the article is forgeting to tell everyone that he cant get approved for a mortgage and has to rent not that he doesn't want to buy...

If you can buy a 1bd under $400k and negotiate a deal why wouldnt you buy??? How much lower can 1bd go? There will always be a demand for 1bd because of the young influx of people into NYC every year...

Posted by: guest at June 16, 2008 9:53 AM

$2550 for a rent at the corner of Nostrand/Myrtle Avenue right across Marcy Projects and a bodega constantly visited by drug addicts? Its a reality Show World

Posted by: guest at June 16, 2008 9:53 AM

most new yorkers are renters. Most housing units in nyc are rentals. Some are really nice some are dumps.
Some renters have/earn big $$$$ and some are on welfare.
So what else is new.

Posted by: guest at June 16, 2008 10:02 AM

I am in my early 30s an just brought a brownstone in Bedford Stuyvesant. many of my friends have are doing or have done the same thing and they are all in my age group. Who did they interview?

Posted by: guest at June 16, 2008 10:15 AM

1)I second Bob Marvin: Some people like full service buildings and some like brownstones and there's nothing wrong with that. Brooklyn's a big place and there's plenty of room for both types of people.

2)Young people typically can't really buy because they don't have the downpayment. I know that couldn't save enough for a downpayment until I was 33.

3) This is news because it used to be that if you were looking for a high end rental there were no options in Brooklyn. You were pretty much limited to Manhattan. SO the angle of the story is "People move to brooklyn, not for brownstones, but for full service apt living - which used to not be possible." And why is it possible? Because alot of buildings that were built as condo have gone rental. I think that's a legitimate news story for the real estate section. Any sector of the market which didn't exist 10 years ago that is now growing rapidly is totally newsworthy.

Posted by: guest at June 16, 2008 10:19 AM

I was 29 when I bought my house last year. My credit and income were excellent, but as other said, the main problem for a young first time buyer is to save for the down payment. But I saved for a few years, put 5% down, and got a 30 yr fixed loan with a good rate. That was in early 2007. I wouldn't be able to do it in the current lending environment. But I feel lucky I did, and I couldn't be happier, I love my house and my backyard, I'm getting rental income, and the net cost of living in my duplex plus backyard and basement is the same as the rent I was paying for a tiny 1 bedroom apartment.

Posted by: guest at June 16, 2008 10:25 AM

somebody deserves a cookie and a gold star.

Posted by: guest at June 16, 2008 10:32 AM

I'd like a gold star and 2 cookies.

I brought my first brownstone at the age of 31 and 3 yrs later brought a second.

Dont believe the media and the sideliners who missed the boat.

Posted by: guest at June 16, 2008 10:45 AM

Well, I bought three and gave one away when I was 14 and, and, and one time at band camp...

I am also very handsome.

Posted by: guest at June 16, 2008 10:52 AM

the level of self-congratulatory smugness on this blog has become truly nauseating, especially given the current economic and mortgage climate. I guess it's just a sign of the times - the gap between the haves and have-nots is continuing to widen and nowhere is this more evident, or happening more quickly, than in Brooklyn.

Posted by: guest at June 16, 2008 10:54 AM

Those of you who purchased a brownstone while in your late 20's or early 30's are an exception, not the norm.

That said, 10:19 had it right with his 3ed point. Brooklyn was lacking high quality rentals and this new condo to rental conversions will draw lots of interest from those living in manhattan.

....which is great for the borough!

Posted by: guest at June 16, 2008 10:55 AM

No gap between the "haves and have nots", only between the "will and won't do's".

There are a wide range of ownership options in Brooklyn, provided that one is willing to sacrifice, save, and be flexible about where to live. Plenty have done it in the past and plenty more will do it in the future.

Meanwhile, those who elect to spend their money on cars, dinners out, getting drunk, and taking vacations they can't afford will ensure landlords a permanent class of renters.

Posted by: guest at June 16, 2008 10:59 AM

bunch of trust fund brats..........an i'm an owner myself but i don't find the need to blow my own horn about it......what a bunch of self absorbed losers on this board. do you want a medal or a chest to pin it on?

Posted by: guest at June 16, 2008 11:10 AM

ahhh, the trust fund myth.

Posted by: guest at June 16, 2008 11:15 AM

10.59 has been reading too much Horatio Alger ... owning property does not = social virtue. Please get over yourself.

Plenty of renters "save" their $$$ too.

Posted by: guest at June 16, 2008 11:20 AM

10.59 - Everyone should take vacations they can't afford, otherwise you'll look back on your life and just regret what you didn't see and do. Unless you're hoping to go there when you're dead.

Posted by: guest at June 16, 2008 11:29 AM

All these new Condos in Brooklyn are nothing more than urban Mini-McMansions. They're for people who want identical, characterless square footage, kitchens with granite counters and high-end stainless appliances, master suites with walk-in closets, and huge master baths with double sinks, soaking tubs, and walk-in showers. The lobby takes the place of the double-height entry. These condos are essentially identical to the McMansions we all say we hate--theya re nothing more than urban vertical sprawl. And they are the death of Brooklyn.

Posted by: guest at June 16, 2008 11:35 AM

The article does promote irresponsible renting habits. Most of these folks with a little bit of initiative could be owners.

Posted by: guest at June 16, 2008 11:36 AM

11:29, don't worry, I plan to take many vacations. I'm young and have a good 45 years left on this earth. Now that the hard work of saving for a home is behind me, I am ready to play.

Posted by: guest at June 16, 2008 11:39 AM

11:35, I'm with you ... and I churn my own butter too.

Bring back the sheep to CP Sheep Meadow!

Huzzah for horse-hair plaster and lead paint!

Protect the "character" of Brooklyn!

Save the children!

Posted by: guest at June 16, 2008 11:40 AM

2550 for Bed Stuy is just craziness! Especially considering that you are a slave to the dreaded G train. For that price you live in prime Brooklyn- I pay $2200 for a 1bdrm in CG. Granted I'm a slave to the F train but I'm closer to Manhattan and have a ton of amenities. I wonder if anyone who lives in MYNT actually does any kind of apartment hunting.

Posted by: guest at June 16, 2008 11:40 AM

11:40, There is nothing wrong with change, the problem is that all these buildings are nothing more than suburban tract houses and they are bringing suburbanites here. Is that the kind of people you want to live with?

Posted by: guest at June 16, 2008 11:45 AM

Bxgrl, you are not in a position to be calling anyone judgmental. Re-read your post.

Posted by: guest at June 16, 2008 11:48 AM

Given the general tone of this blog I was pleasantly surprised to see that this article was mentioned today. All the article is essentially trying to say: "No, not everyone wants or needs a multi-family brownstone and really folks, that's okay too"

I'm just never sure why the brownstone owners get all pissed and peeved when that fact is mentioned or why the immediate response is "well, you're angry because you really do want one and can't have it" My sister and I were raised in a three family brownstone and neither of us would ever opt to live in one now or raise our own children in one, preferring an Ansonia type builiding or another very well laid out condo, with all or some of those nice amenities mentioned. Doesn't take anything away from our parents who still hold on to their brownstone and can't imagine living any other way. It's simply a preference.

As far as the "not so bitter renters"? That seems to be an open wound for owners on this blog as well. I know a significant number of people who, for various reasons **choose** to rent. They are my tenants, my friends and co-workers. They are not bitter, but not interested in owning either. Sometimes that too is a preference. For whatever reason, this blog always gets explosive rants whenever someone dares to even float the notion that everyone doesn't want the exact same thing.

Posted by: guest at June 16, 2008 11:54 AM

11:45 ... "suburbanites"?!?!?!

Most of these people are first time young buyers or young renters.

Please remove your head from ass.

Also, your "too-cool-for-school" suburbanite-bashing automatically means you are a transplant from Ohio.

Posted by: guest at June 16, 2008 11:56 AM

11:45:

As opposed to living with the smuglies who are mired in the idea that the only true living in Brooklyn is brownstone living?

I want to live with people who are good neighbors and respectful of community living.

Posted by: guest at June 16, 2008 12:02 PM

11:56--I am a born and bred Brooklynite, thanks. Lived here since 1969.

"Suburbanite" is a mind-set. It is the mind set of people who want granite counters and his and her sinks in the master bath. They can live in Brooklyn, but they're still suburbanites.

Posted by: guest at June 16, 2008 12:06 PM

Its funny that only a few weeks ago on this blog renterts were referred to as bitter, senseless and irresponsible and told they don't belong on this blog. How quickly things can change

Posted by: guest at June 16, 2008 12:18 PM

10:59 - you are nuts. buying in this market IS throwing your money away - renting is the best option now (wasn't when I bought in Brooklyn in 1998, but it is now.)

and 11:39, who I think is 10:59 again, did you make some deal with the devil? because, barring that, you don't know you have 45 more years here, none of us do...and as much as you may want to be smug about owning, your supposed life expectancy is one thing one is never advised to be smug about...but then, you are young, as you say, and therefore still clueless about life in general.

Posted by: guest at June 16, 2008 12:21 PM

"10:59- typical judgemental answer well- grounded in ignorance. Assuming you know the lifestyles of people who rent is about as correct as your assumption you have the intelligence to assess it."

What Did I say that that was "grounded in ignorance"? It's very true that there are a wide range of ownership options in Brooklyn, from brownstones to more affordable co-ops in East Flatbush, Mill Basin, or Midwood. It's also very true that giving up creature comforts like eating out, taking vacations, and owning a car can translate into huge savings for a down payment.

Your next paragraph was so inaccurate that I'm tempted to think it was intended as a joke:

"Owning is only one of the many choices you make in life.Since you look at everything through the lens of ownership of real estate I can pretty much guess what your life is like- you do no volunteer work because time is money..."

Very wrong. As a licensed social worker, I not only dedicate my career to helping the less fortunate, but also volunteer as a companion to an elderly man. In the past, I have done volunteer work with the mentally ill, children and teens, and immigrants.

"...you never contribute to charities because they might help people who have the stupidity to live in New Orleans- a city with a levee, for g-d's sake!..."

Wrong again. I donate to prospect park and to an organization that works will individuals who have been sexually assaulted in prisons.

"...you refuse to help a relative or a friend because if they had bought like you did all their life problems would be non-existent..."

Wrong again. I've had friends and relatives sleep on my couch during times of need. As mentioned above, I have dedicated my career - and at quite a low salary - to helping others.

"...you have no curiosity so you don't travel..."

Wrong yet again. I just returned from a vacation in Puerto Rico. Over the past few years, I've also visited Montreal, New Orleans, Chicago, and San Francisco.

"...you like McDonalds and never go to a good restaurant..."

I haven't been to McDonald's in a good 15 years. While I don't often go to expensive restaurants, I love good food, like roti, thai, mexican, etc.

"...you own a 12 inch black and white tv so you don't go to the movies, you illegally download music and movies because the money goes into your mortgage, and you pirated your copy of Windows Vista for the same reason."

None of the above.

"Oh - and you rented the apartment on your top floor to your sister because you can't afford to pay your mortgage without a tenant."

Nope. My partner and I own an apartment, not a building, so we pay the mortgage from our salaries.

So, there you have it. My partner and I don't earn all that much money, but we've become home owners through hard work and sacrifice. And I'm proud of this and make no apologies to you or anyone else for "tooting my own horn". That's what you're supposed to do when you've accomplished a major goal.

Many others could do the same, especially if they don't listen to those who imply that it can't be done without a trust fund or a job on Wall Street.

Posted by: guest at June 16, 2008 12:21 PM

bxgrl: Go back to selling kitty litter and living in your friend's basement, where you belong. Did you contact Hostos CC yet? If you get your tuition money back, you could move to Brooklyn.

You want to grow up and move out of your friend's house and live on your own?

She doesn't get it, 11:48. All bxgrl does is try to insult people all day with these crazy assumptions about the posters. Then, when you call her on it, she calls you stupid. Then she will say "it's like shooting fish in a barrel" and how much fun she is having - until she gets bored.

She has some serious issues which will never get resolved on this site.

- Bizarro What

Posted by: guest at June 16, 2008 12:23 PM

11:35- huh, what? NYC is, has, and will be mostly filled with apartments. This article is about providing high quality apartments - nice, new, clean, AC, washer/dryer, etc... to this particular class of people who prefer it to brownstone/prewar not renovated places.

they probably work a lot and are not interested in living in a crappy old building (which is typical in a pre-war in their price range in manhattan). and, actually in Brooklyn too. i can't even believe the walk up in williamsburg my friend lives in - crappy crappy top floor of a run down brick townhouse - $2300!! yikes. yucky.

anyway, these new apartments are just a blank slate. anyone who is interested in decorating can really make them special no matter what.

aren't brownstones cookie cutter too? yes, of course they are. boring brown stone on the outside. oppressive old fashioned moldings on the inside. small windows in small rooms. no central air. damp basements that flood. they are depressing and make you feel like you are in a victorian novel and not living in a fabulous life 2008 in the best city on the planet living.

it's all a person's point of view darling. the young gorgeous successful things in this town are not necessarily yearning to be betty crocker. they want to live the good life, not the "I gave up" the NYC dream life.

hey, before anyone says, what you don't like brownstones, whhhaat? why are you on this blog? etc, etc.... remember, brownstoner posted this article about new rentals, not me, and you're reading it too.

Posted by: guest at June 16, 2008 12:36 PM

"you never contribute to charities because they might help people who have the stupidity to live in New Orleans- a city with a levee, for g-d's sake!",

Seriously Bxgrl, calm the f*^@ down. You're babbling and throwing around false accusations. I think you owe 12:21 an apology.

Posted by: guest at June 16, 2008 12:42 PM

""Suburbanite" is a mind-set. It is the mind set of people who want granite counters and his and her sinks in the master bath. They can live in Brooklyn, but they're still suburbanites."

Yeah, damn people who want nice sinks and countertops, go back to the suburbs. If you want to live in NY you have to have a tiny kitchen with cracked plastic countertops and a tiny sink with spotty hot water!

Seriously, WTF? When did wanting to live in a nice apartment = living in the suburbs. I've lived here for 17 years, but the worse thing about this city is the crappy, overpriced housing. If I could live in NY and have a giant jacuzzi tub and a subzero fridge, well, why wouldn't I prefer that?

Posted by: guest at June 16, 2008 12:55 PM

"the problem is that all these buildings are nothing more than suburban tract houses and they are bringing suburbanites here. Is that the kind of people you want to live with?"

No, the problem is you do not get to be The Decider about who is allowed to live in Brooklyn.

A city evolves. Constantly. Accept it.

Oh, and if it weren't for all the people who would have normally chosen the suburbs 10 years ago instead of buying a brownstone in Brooklyn like they're doing now -- your brownstone wouldn't be worth anything near what you've invested in it, and we wouldn't have jack sh** for amenities in Brooklyn. (We just barely have what we need now). So you actually should be very thankful towards these former "suburbanites".

Posted by: guest at June 16, 2008 1:07 PM

Two of my neighbors who bought their homes (Park Slope) for around 2 million are in their early 30's.

Posted by: guest at June 16, 2008 1:09 PM

People in their 20's and early 30's need to focus their time and energies on establishing their careers. Not restoring a 100 year old house and dealing with tenants. Especially if they are single which the typical young condo buyer is.

I bought an 80 year old house in need of renovations in my late 20's too, as a single, and it was really really hard. I would get a condo in a heartbeat if I could do it all over again. The house was lovely but became a big source of stress on top of my very demanding career at the time. And it was a money pit at a time I should have been traveling and spending my money on enjoying my youth.

As for Bob Marvin saying he did it so others should do it, as I understand it from what you've described before, Bob you were married in your late 20's not single. You also weren't in a corporate job with long hours. Huge huge difference. Nothing to compare.

Posted by: guest at June 16, 2008 1:16 PM

Appreciating and loving brownstones is not just about the bricks and mortar of it. It's about appreciating history and where we came from.

I meet too many people...especially in New York who don't give a rats as* about the past. It's important to know about our history and to preserve what past generations have given us.

Thanksfully there are those who still appreciate this concept.

For the rest, there are plenty of white boxes to go around...

Posted by: guest at June 16, 2008 1:18 PM

People can appreciate history without having to live in it, 1:18.

Duh.

Posted by: guest at June 16, 2008 1:26 PM

Today's modern design will be tomorrow's garbage. Give it 10 years.
Remember those cool modern compressed wood wall panels of the 70's? They were so hip even some station wagons had them installed on the exterior.

Posted by: guest at June 16, 2008 1:28 PM

I see very few people in their 20's and 30's appreciating much of anything but gin and tonics and britney spears.

Posted by: guest at June 16, 2008 1:30 PM

The only new building in Brooklyn I can think of that is going to still look good in 10 years is Toren.

The rest are crap and will look horrible in 10-20 years.

Brownstones age well. They look as beautiful today as they did 100 years ago.

Posted by: guest at June 16, 2008 1:32 PM

The interesting thing about the article is that people with choices are (1) choosing to live in Bedstuy at a rather high rent, and (2) prefer to rent, at least while rents are cheaper than the even higher sales prices.

So long as buyers are willing to move further out and into previously unacceptable neighborhoods, and so long as the city keeps rezoning to create vast new high density areas, it is hard to see why land should continue to have enormous scarcity value.

Thus, NY's market should stabilize with comparable prices for rentals and purchases, both of which should reflect the actual costs of building high-end housing (about $500/s ft., apparently). Builders will build new buildings whenever they can buy land cheaply enough to allow profits as rentals or sales.
Eventually, supply will increase enough to bring prices down to costs.

Current rental prices seems to reflect these actual costs for luxury housing. Landlords of older homes are exploiting the inefficiency of the market to charge higher prices than they could get in a competitive market. Their ability to do this will drop as the high-end market expands.

Current prices for sales, on the other hand, are far higher than the fundamentals warrant.
In the short run, this becomes self-reinforcing: because prices for land and obsolete buildings are high, developers face high acquisition costs which make them unwilling to develop unless they can get high sales prices which reduces supply, keeping prices (including land prices) high.

In the medium run, however, potential owners are likely to decide to rent instead. For most people, and especially for potential condo owners looking for relatively generic housing, it makes little sense to own if owning is likely to cost more money than renting. As these potential new entrants into the housing market decide to rent, prices will go down. Some condo developers will switch to rentals, and others may see a niche in quality rentals. This will eliminate the only remaining reason to buy, namely the shortage of quality rentals, thus reducing demand for sales even further.

Meanwhile, as general prices drop, developers will be unable to pay the silly prices they've been paying recently for land acquisition, so land/obsolete house prices will go down too.

This process could take a few years, but relatively quickly we should see a convergence to normal prices, in which buyers save money by buying (because they are assuming risk and because they are tying up capital), and sales prices are no higher than replacement costs.

For most of Brownstone Brooklyn, this suggests price drops of roughly 50%.

Posted by: guest at June 16, 2008 1:36 PM

I had my brownstoner handed to me on a silver platter.

Posted by: guest at June 16, 2008 1:41 PM

I had my brownstoner handed to me on a silver platter.

Posted by: guest at June 16, 2008 1:41 PM

1:36 - total nonsense

Posted by: guest at June 16, 2008 1:41 PM

Well la-di-da 1:32. Feel superior much?

Not everyone can afford to buy a brownstone house, or can afford to pay $800 a month maintenance for a coop apartment in a brownstone building on a brownstone block. On top of buying the place.

We ourselves do own a brownstone house but at least we're capable of understanding not everyone can afford it!

Jeez. Sometimes I'm ashamed to be part of the snooty patooty Brownstone-owner crowd.

Posted by: guest at June 16, 2008 1:43 PM

1:32 -- I looked at roughly 95 brownstones before buying one. Of those 95, at least 40 were wrecks that looked like pitiful reminders of their magnificent past, chopped up, badly maintained, etc. Virtually all of the rest were even worse: "renovated" by people with no taste and not enough access to credit, trying to coerce an old building to accommodate a modern life without enough thought. I don't think I saw more than one that I actually wanted to move into and live in as is, and not more than half a dozen that had actually aged well (there were still some untouched single family houses in those days).

Brownstones have beautiful facades and their moderate density makes for nice neighborhoods. But relatively few people have figured out how to adapt them beautifully and usefully to smaller families, modern CVAC, informal eating habits, no servants and so on.

Posted by: guest at June 16, 2008 1:44 PM

Bitter owners. So jealous that they can't afford to go out to expensive diners or a night of drinking with friends because they are dumping all their income into renovations and taxes. Upset they never get to take a nice, loooooong vacation anywhere because they can't risk leaving their brownstone for more than a day or two. The antiquated plumbing may break, or their tenets roof may cave in. Sad, bitter owners.

Posted by: guest at June 16, 2008 1:53 PM

1:43: Most of the crappy new construction is quite expensive. While it is hard to do really good design without a reasonable budget, it is quite easy to spend lots of money and still build crap. The Smith+Court, the NOVO, the Forte, much of the new construction near DUMBO look bad already. Patina isn't going to help.

Posted by: guest at June 16, 2008 1:55 PM

For most people, 'owning' just means renting from the bank. Who cares whether you own or rent, so long as you treat the building and your neighbors with respect?

If prices dropped by 50%, maybe we could talk about how to design a brownstone garden duplex instead of debating whether "owning" is the path to riches or moral ruin.

Posted by: guest at June 16, 2008 2:03 PM

So I've seen insults on this thread toward the usual suspects: bitter renters, trust fund owners, midwestern transplants, suburban mcmansion owners. But what about the Park Slope stroller nazis?? C'mon folks, get with the program!

Posted by: guest at June 16, 2008 2:05 PM

Sober enough to post, Biff? How was your whorish weekend?

You add nothing to every post, so I am in good company in that respect.

Get a job bxgrl. Get a job. Same goes for you, Biff.

- Bizarro What

Posted by: guest at June 16, 2008 2:13 PM

$2,550 in bed stuy is a joke in your town!

is that "affordable housing?"

Posted by: guest at June 16, 2008 2:16 PM

Yeah, you're right 1:53...after that 3 million I spent on my bstone, I'm just oh so poor now.

No money left for dinner at all, in fact.

Ramen noodles for me every night.

Sometime with a piece of bread, on rough weeks, just a cracker or two...

Posted by: guest at June 16, 2008 2:16 PM

A well-designed brownstone garden duplex? Yeah, and a railroad flat with extreme light. Doesn't exist.

Posted by: guest at June 16, 2008 2:22 PM

I was just in Berlin last week and met a few people out at the bars who were talking about their trip to NYC last month and all they could talk about was Park Slope.

It was nuts.

Posted by: guest at June 16, 2008 2:26 PM

Dave: mostly people who view their real estate as an investment.

Posted by: guest at June 16, 2008 2:32 PM

I plan to leave my brownstone to my children.

What do you plan to leave them, 2:03? Besides the debt you will likely accrue in old age from having to rent...?

By then a 1 bedroom rental should average around $8,000 a month here in NYC. Hope you're saving well...

Posted by: guest at June 16, 2008 2:34 PM

bob marvin -- keep waiting. the bubble took 8 years up and it'll take 10 years down. by the end, middle class people will once again be able to live in decrepit houses in marginal neighborhoods.

Posted by: guest at June 16, 2008 2:35 PM

Pride of ownership goes a long way. People who say it's renting from the bank, etc. don't really have many aspirations or pride in themselves. They also probably don't care too much about family, making memories or future generations.

There is something special about raising a family in a house you own. You have the opportunity to make it yours and to share it with others.

Some are fine to rent a box for their lifetime, but I don't consider those people very goal oriented.

Posted by: guest at June 16, 2008 2:37 PM

"keep waiting. the bubble took 8 years up and it'll take 10 years down. by the end, middle class people will once again be able to live in decrepit houses in marginal neighborhoods."

I bought my PS brownstone for 270K and the going rate is now around 2.8 million. How long should I wait before my house is worth 270K again, 2:35?

Posted by: guest at June 16, 2008 2:45 PM

So the lesson I learned today is that in my early and late 20s, I should not experience all the city has to offer (nightlife, dinner, culture ie things that cost money) in order to buy an overpriced, depreciating asset. Then, ideally, I should procreate and bring my spawn to the bars/restaurants with me so I'll be the old dude with a kid.

Then what exactly is the point of living in NYC if you don't experience it? I would have a much easier time sitting at home on Saturday nights if I lived in Smithtown, Long Island - rents are a whole heck of a lot cheaper too.

Posted by: guest at June 16, 2008 2:56 PM

But 2:56 -

You also forgot you can sit on Brownstoner.com and make fun of renters, and brag that you will be able to leave your kids a brownstone!!

Posted by: guest at June 16, 2008 3:00 PM

guys, why the HELL do you care this much about other's choices?

So stupid.

I've recently switched from looking-to-buy in Brooklyn to looking-to-rent. I'm 26, married, professional, and a second-time buyer. We all have different stories, and do what works for us.

Posted by: guest at June 16, 2008 3:03 PM

2:56, what you seem to have learned is to be a sheep, and to have your life dictated to you by anonymous posters on a real estate blog.

You do realize that some people in their 20's are going out nightly, some are married, and in some 3rd world countries are in their "old" age not far from death.

Personally in my 20's I bought a place AND was going out with friends all the time and experiencing all that nyc has to offer. I still do it today in my 30's too. Imagine that.

Just because you are in a certain situation and can't afford to buy a home and go out simultaneously, does not mean that everyone else is the carbon copy of you.

Posted by: guest at June 16, 2008 3:06 PM

3:06

I was being sarcastic, mmmkay?

I could afford to buy now if i wanted to, but i realize it's not the time. if you listen to people on here (which i don't) they would lead you to believe that the best thing someone could do is buy property as soon as possible, sacrificing everything else to do so.

Anyone know of a good place to buy a vacation home?

Posted by: guest at June 16, 2008 3:22 PM

Funny article, at least all the condos are not going to sit around as empty eye soars.

I am in my mid 20's and I would rather rent in a Brownstone and keep trying for that elusive Garden Rental than live in Bed-Stuy with Floor to Ceiling Windows so everyone in the hood can see how big my flat screen is.

One of those All Glass Condo/rentals is going up next to my friends building across from the Lafayette Gardens in Clinton Hill/Bed Stuy. The back porch of the 3rd unit (i think) is next to his roof. Hope who ever lives there doesn't mind college students grilling on the roof next to their porch.

Posted by: guest at June 16, 2008 3:24 PM

I don't understand why anyone would pay that much to love right across the street from the Marcy projects.... literally. The MYNT is on myrtle and nostrand ave. Being born and raised in Brooklyn, I know that that is a ridiculous price to pay for that space/area. Basically is just seems that either the people that rent there don't know any better or they get swept up with the appliances and "perks" and forget that they are still getting ripped off.

Posted by: guest at June 16, 2008 4:05 PM

2:34, the opportunity cost of a $2.5m brownstone is about 200k/year, or more if you view working for your tenants as work rather than pleasure. That doesn't include the price declines that are likely in the next few years -- it's just the real cost of keeping your money tied up in the house instead of in an index fund.

If your main concern is leaving money for your kids, you should sell now and put your money in the broadest index fund you can find. No hassle, no sweat, and a far higher expected return.

Posted by: guest at June 16, 2008 4:07 PM

As someone who grew up in brownstone Brooklyn, bought a condo in a brownstone first and then traded up to a house a few years later and then after 10 years of beautifully restoring and living in that 100 year old brownstone we had an opportunity to build a brand new house in another brownstone and have not looked back since. The new house we currently live in has all the amenities we love: central air, radiant floor heating, non squeaking/non sloping floors/staircase, reconfigured rooms and overall house design to bring in up to date with way we live today as opposed to the way people lived 100 years ago. This is all in a great and convenient neighborhood – we love - and feel fortunate to have had the opportunity to build and live in a modern designed interior with an exterior that is 100 years old and fits in with the rest of the hood.

Posted by: guest at June 16, 2008 4:09 PM

I love bxgrl

It is one stupid entertaining post after another. It is like watching a Lindsey Lohan car wreck... but dumber.... and uglier... and about real estate... and dumber (did I say that already?). I can't keep my eyes off it. Please MORE BXGRL postings! AAAAAAHHH!

Posted by: guest at June 16, 2008 4:13 PM

BTW- to the person saying this is not a BUYERS MARKET. Let me guess you are still renting?
If you wait when the RE market swings back up (like pre 2008) then you really deserved to be a renter for the rest of your life. Seriously. Stop giving bad advice.
If you are a first time buyer, have 30% (20% down + closing + one year protection) of the value of the unit you want this year is the time to buy. If you rent, I have a shotgun in I can teach you how to trigger with your toes.

Posted by: guest at June 16, 2008 4:26 PM

"If your main concern is leaving money for your kids"

See, this is where you are confused. I said I wanted to leave my HOME to my kids, not money. You know...the place they loved growing up with many wonderful memories...they are all fighting over which one wants it more. My guess is two of the three kids will move in when we pass on...

You don't read very well, do you?

Posted by: guest at June 16, 2008 4:40 PM

4:26- you don't really seem capable of teaching anyone anything. You may not know it but people really don't take advice from those who still drag their knuckles on the floor when they walk.

ANd guest at 4:40- what makes you think that the only way to make good memories for your kids is have a house?

I wouldn't worry too much about renters, I can see how concerned some of you homeowners are. they'll do just fine with or without your approval.

Posted by: guest at June 16, 2008 5:16 PM

bxgrl, you're kinda trashy, aren't ya...?

Posted by: guest at June 16, 2008 5:26 PM

After hearing that people pay $2200 a month to live in the absolute ahole of Brooklyn, I feel pretty great about owning, actually.

Posted by: guest at June 16, 2008 5:32 PM

If you want to leave a house to your kids -- you should own, or better yet inherit a rent controlled apartment, and you be certain to have kids who aren't very ambitious or are lucky enough to have the kinds of careers that work in NYC and who will marry the same, and you should be certain to die young enough that they haven't gotten themselves settled elsewhere yet. Or that they want to retire to Brooklyn.

If you are investing for your kids, you should take lessons in equity from Dave, who can explain what happens to the equity-holder when a highly leveraged asset goes down in price, even if he doesn't understand why some people call paying monthly interest charges "rent".

If you are trying to live a happy life, you should concentrate on things that are likely to make you happy. For most people, that includes actual relationships with your children while you are still alive, productive work, and so on, with property ownership quite far down the list.

Posted by: guest at June 16, 2008 5:46 PM

What is your IQ, bxgrl? Did they ever test it at Hostos CC?

Posted by: guest at June 16, 2008 5:49 PM

4:40 -- very sweet, the idea of your retirement-age "kids" moving in together after you die to the house where they lived half a century earlier. But the second generation generally have other things to do than wait for mum and dad to die. Not sure I'd recommend this life plan to the average home buyer

Posted by: guest at June 16, 2008 6:08 PM

Wow, this "quote of the day" ranks as the dumbest comment ever made on brownstoner, and regular readers know that is no small feat.

"So the lesson I learned today is that in my early and late 20s, I should not experience all the city has to offer (nightlife, dinner, culture ie things that cost money) in order to buy an overpriced, depreciating asset."

This is not an "either/or" thing. Most people sacrifice when saving for the down payment and then enjoy life thereafter. They, my friend, have the best of both worlds, and to say that their asset is depreciating is downright ignorant. I've owned my apartment for four years and it has increased in value by 35%. If I were a flipper, I might concede your point, but those of us who are in it for the long haul know that we will come out ahead. Unless you can show me a NYC property that was worth more 30 years ago than it is today, you have no case.

I'll never understand the people who somehow think that having the privelege of paying $20,000 a year towards their landlord's mortage is more intelligent than sacrificing in order to own a home.

Posted by: guest at June 16, 2008 6:22 PM

********

Not to add something dumb to this conversation...and I JUST COULD NOT get through all the comments (so maybe someone already "said it")...

But, I have to admit it:

I'M A BITTER HOMEOWNER!

There. I wrote it.

Oh, yeah, and I bought when I was just over 30...

Want to sell and move to the country (or out of it if possible). Back to the land, Kids, back to the land!

;-)

**********

Posted by: guest at June 16, 2008 7:38 PM

So according to the comment of the day, you should not buy when you are young, and live it up and party and go out to dinner every night. So by that philosophy, I am also screwing up my golden years, by assuring that I will have to pay rent after I aim to retire, having to succumb to a landlord, rising rent costs, possible moves every year, etc. all while trying to enjoy my golden years that i've worked so hard for.

no thanks. i'll take the moderate approach. buy now, be finished with my mortgage when i'm 60, then live out the rest of my life (on a fixed income, mind you) and be able to enjoy the fruits of my labor.

and people say americans don't plan for the future.

if you look at the comment of the day, one would think that was true...

Posted by: guest at June 16, 2008 7:47 PM

Heather:

My parents live in Queens. They bought their house in 1975 (so 33 years ago) for $22,000.

If they put it on the market, they could probably get around 900K for it for a quick sale.

Are you really going to tell me that when factoring inflation that your numbers add up??

You aren't very smart.

Posted by: guest at June 16, 2008 7:49 PM

I'm a bitter owner.

Posted by: guest at June 16, 2008 7:59 PM

money, money, money!!!!!!!!!!

Posted by: guest at June 16, 2008 8:47 PM

I dont get how so many of you repeat posters have that much time during the day to sit in front of your computer and pick fights-doesnt anyone work anymore? It seems that the dumbest threads are the ones most commented on..

Look! Fonzie is waterskiing in his leather jacket!, its not even getting wet!, he's up the ramp-in the air, switch to stock film of a shark- and DOWN!.-he made it!

its gotten so trite on this site, thank god the brokers/advertisers are holding it together so all of you can still blow off work to fight each other in circles.

Posted by: guest at June 16, 2008 8:49 PM

The ONLY reason renters get called names here is because many of them pray for, wish upon and seem to incessantly hope that home prices will halve, effectively causing many nice, hardworking people in NYC to go bankrupt.

That is the one and only reason why all this began. If renters were truly secure with their decision, they would not project their feelings onto others.

Very few homeowners here who spent many years saving for a downpayment, spent many weekends fixing up their place or investing in their future are bitter about the biggest purchase of their lives. Most I imagine are quite happy and proud.

I don't know if the same can be said for many people who have been renting for 10 plus years in this city...

Posted by: guest at June 16, 2008 9:22 PM

bxgrl, yall in the wrong country.

Posted by: guest at June 16, 2008 10:11 PM

Hey, I like bxgrl's posts, too.

And though I've been an owner, and currenly style myself happy renter, I love this post for creating the term "bitter owner." Yes, they do exist.

That's why they attack renters here. And no, it isn't because renters are wanting housing values to halve - most are just trying to get ahead in life, and perhaps buy some day when they are ready to. And no, most likely don't see owning as their main goal in life right now. As some have noted, there are other things many renters focus on in various stages of their lives. If you want to own, fine, but all you owners should stop with the renter-hating here - it gets old. As does the park slope hating, the stroller hating...get a life, haters.

Posted by: guest at June 16, 2008 11:33 PM

5:16
It must be hard for you that even a Neanderthal can afford to buy and a clean knuckles like you still giving away vacations to land lords. It is sad really. You must be the person who said not to buy in a down real estate market. God gave you the ability to walk upright but decided to leave with the brains of pigeon. Your post is like random street poop.

Posted by: guest at June 17, 2008 1:29 AM

"polemicist,
a skilled debater in speech or writing"
-The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition

and your post stands as a true testament to your skills. NOT.

Although now we know. You tipped your hand, Bizarro What. Now we know your log in name.

Not that it wasn't obvious- your immaturity and low level of communication stamps you every time. You even too stupid to realize it.

Posted by: guest at June 17, 2008 1:47 AM

I love the NYTimes. If you read the Times, and you don't know any better, you would think that 27 year old corporate lawyers who can afford $34,000 per year in rent for a 1BR are the norm.

Posted by: guest at June 17, 2008 2:00 AM

heather, you might want to quit while you're behind.

seriously lady. you are digging yourself deeper into the land of ignorant.

Posted by: guest at June 17, 2008 10:42 AM

um I bought 10,000,000 brownstones by the time I um 6 years old and um I live in both the suburbs and brooklyn at the same time and um my stoop is better than yours and my countertops are made of um gold which is way better than granite and um today I am time traveling back to 1970 to buy all the property in brooklyn and um I just did

-P

Posted by: guest at June 17, 2008 11:16 AM

11:33 PM,
Thanks for acknowledging my coining of "bitter owner".
best,
FGG

Posted by: guest at June 17, 2008 11:54 AM