« Hurdles, Question Marks for Walentas W'burg Hotel Bid Development Watch: 538 Washington Avenue/894 Fulton »

June 26, 2008

Inside Third & Bond: Week 43

062608-scales.jpgToday's post deal's with an issue close to many Brownstoner readers' hearts—neighborhood boundaries. Where are we? Where do our buyers want to say they live? These are two questions that have been bouncing around in our heads lately as we’ve been interviewing marketing firms. Are we in Carroll Gardens? Are we in Gowanus? Are we “at the intersection of Carroll Gardens and Gowanus?” In terms of the facts of mapped geography, it isn’t clear to us which neighborhood we’re in. The City’s neighborhood map lumps Carroll Gardens, Gowanus, Park Slope, Cobble Hill and Red Hook together and the Department of City Planning’s zoning study on wide streets in Carroll Gardens addresses only a portion of the neighborhood—not leaving us any clues as to the neighborhood boundaries. NY Magazine says the eastern border for Carroll Gardens is Smith Street. Wikipedia punts on the eastern boundary for the neighborhood entirely. Smalltownbrooklyn.com shows the canal as the eastern boundary. It seems like the more places we look, the more answers we get.

So without an authoritative map to guide us – not that real estate marketing sticks to official boundaries -- we turned to discussing what neighborhood is the right fit for our buyers. Are people more attracted to the established charm of Carroll Gardens, with amenities at every turn? Or does “Carroll Gardens” make people see $$$$$ and something staid?

What are people thinking about Gowanus? Is it seen as a bargain since it is new to the luxury housing game? Or do people think of it as a dirty industrial neighborhood with scattered tenements—and is that bad for us or good? Do people want reassurance or adventure? Or do they want a piece of both?


If a lot of our buyers are Gen Xers and we believe the stereotypes, then we are looking at people who are ambivalent about a lot of things. Why not let them live at the intersection of Carroll Gardens and Gowanus? They can tell their parents that they live in Carroll Gardens and their friends that they live in Gowanus. At our project The Clinton (W 48th Street), we use the tag: Clinton Comfort with Hell’s Kitchen Rents. That’s worked great for that project. We suspect that particular dichotomy would not go over as well for this one – especially since the new projects proposed for Gowanus are looking for prices equal or greater than today’s Carroll Gardens.


In our quest, we looked at the physical geography of our site, too. Going by sheer eyesight, we are at the intersection of two different places. We will be the last of the housing marching down Third St toward the canal (except for the building on the next corner that has a first floor commercial space and housing above). Across the street is a manufacturing district. Behind us is completely residential. We really are on the edge of residential and industrial. For now: residential = Carroll Gardens and industrial = Gowanus. But with Public Place, Toll Brothers, and others putting up new construction on Gowanus, how soon will that change? Is the intersection of two places an enticing image or just messy?
Inside Third & Bond: Week 42 [Brownstoner]
Inside Third & Bond: Week 41 [Brownstoner]
Inside Third & Bond: Week 40 [Brownstoner]
Inside Third & Bond: Week 39 [Brownstoner]
Inside Third & Bond: Week 38 [Brownstoner]
Inside Third & Bond: Week 37 [Brownstoner]

From our lawyers: “This is not an offering. No offering can be made until an offering plan is filed with the Department of Law of the State of New York."




Posted by Brownstoner at 11:29 AM | Comments (28)
Categories: Gowanus, Third & Bond Blog

Trackback Pings

TrackBack URL for this entry:
http://www.brownstoner.com/mte/mt-tb.cgi/5328

Comments

GoCaGa?

Posted by: z at June 26, 2008 11:48 AM

You're in Carroll Gardens - those are the amenities your residents will be using the the community they will be hooked into. Gowanus just doesn't really exist.

Posted by: guest at June 26, 2008 11:52 AM

The posts on this development are just going downhill. I'm sure you did this as an effort to garner good publicity for your project. Well buddy boy, this has totally backfired.

Who gives a %@$*@# what they call your hood? YOu are less than a block from the Canal, so you're in Gowanus.


Hey, did you get your violations fixed? Have you repaired your fences? Do you know how to build a fence?
Have you hurt anyone lately?

Posted by: guest at June 26, 2008 12:01 PM

Far West Central Slope?

Posted by: Biff Champion at June 26, 2008 12:04 PM

Who cares what neighborhood it is or anything about this third and bond crap.

Posted by: guest at June 26, 2008 12:07 PM

Your in the Gowanus. Or you can go by G_SLOPE

Posted by: guest at June 26, 2008 12:11 PM

You are Gowanus but you will end up calling it Carroll Gardens.

Posted by: Carol Gardens at June 26, 2008 12:12 PM

If it stinks of oil and chemical rot, you know you are in Gowanus.

Posted by: guest at June 26, 2008 12:13 PM

Tough crowd. I hope there's no Bed Stuy post today!!!!

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at June 26, 2008 12:21 PM

It's GowAnus Gardens ... duh!

Posted by: guest at June 26, 2008 12:32 PM

GoCaGa...

That has a ring to it... weird, but...hmm.

Interesting that the Slope is getting in there too. I thought the Slope was too far, especially with the psychological blocker of the canal. But maybe not?

Posted by: Alison at June 26, 2008 12:33 PM

For the last 28 years, I have lived around the corner on 2nd St and I've always lived in Carroll Gardens. There was no Gowanus neighborhood until recently.

Posted by: guest at June 26, 2008 12:36 PM

Some people seem to trying hard to create an identity for a Gowanus neighborhood (i.e. Gowanuslounge.com and that nut from brookltneagle.com) but I doubt you'll get many people that have lived in the area more than a decade using the term for other the the expessway or the canal.
I mean - what exactly would the focal point, commercial hub of Gowanus be?
As far as NY Mag as a source of info (can i gag now) - the Carroll Garden Historic district would not even fit into their boundary.
Matter is neighborhoods don't have official boudaries and are fluid and ambigous. Whether the use of Gowanus really has legs only time will tell. My feeling is that it won't. Too many mini-neighborhood names already.

Posted by: guest at June 26, 2008 12:37 PM

i prefer GoCaCaGa, or CaCa for short.

Posted by: guest at June 26, 2008 1:00 PM

Here's one for you. Prior to the 1970s, the entire area was called South Brooklyn. The area now known as Carroll Gardens was lumped into the Red Hook category. When I was growing up on President St (Smith-Hoyt) in the late 50s-60s, if you told people you lived on President or Carroll or Union, etc., they would say, OMG..you live in Red Hook..how can you live in such an awful place... Believe it or not, this is true.

Posted by: guest at June 26, 2008 1:25 PM

I know people who grew up in what is now Boerum Hill that called it Gowanus in the 70's.

Posted by: guest at June 26, 2008 1:47 PM

Howzabout Brownzonesville?

Posted by: guest at June 26, 2008 1:51 PM

Why do people have to be so mean on here? It's kind of ridiculous. I'd say it's clearly Gowanus, but that Gowanus will completely cease to exist as an identifier in a few years—except for the manufacturing south of third.

Definitely go with Carroll Gardens though. People don't want to buy into Gowanus.

Posted by: guest at June 26, 2008 2:24 PM

What public school are you zoned for? If you are zoned for PS 58 I'd definitely call that Carroll Gardens because, when it comes to "neighborhoods", that's what most people care about. I don't know where the border of PS 58 ends.

Posted by: guest at June 26, 2008 2:25 PM

1:25, that's what I recall too. My family jumped around a bit from Bergen St, Butler Street, and Columbia Street, in the late 1950's and 1960's. Boerum Hill didn't even exist back then. And Cobble Hill wasn't widely known back then as such. When gentrification started occuring the names started changing. Before then, everything was either South Brooklyn or Red Hook, in those areas, And Clinton Gardens appeared to be the name of an apartment complex on Clinton Street between Carroll and President St. One of the "safe" places I had as a child was the branch library on Clinton and Union Street. It was never known back then as the Carroll Garden's Branch.

It's funny though I'm finding that I'm running into a lot of people who claim they're from Red Hook these days, almost similar to the claims that people were at Woodstock in 1969.

Posted by: guest at June 26, 2008 2:29 PM

2.29 - Being from Red Hook is nothing to brag about ... unless you like-uh der Svedish meatballs-uh.

Posted by: guest at June 26, 2008 4:36 PM

2:29: I'm 1:25. I also remember hearing about (and fearing, as a child) the two rival gangs: the DeGraw Street Boys & the Seaview Kids (presumably from Red Hook).

Posted by: guest at June 26, 2008 4:39 PM

...and how can we forget the Park Slope Patchouli's ... they were fierce. Hung around Ye Olde Tea Lounge in the 50's.

Posted by: guest at June 26, 2008 4:45 PM

Hey, 4:36, I gotta say it is something to brag about, if ya survived Red Hook the way I did. And people who recently grew up there are still bragging about it, as evidenced by a soon-to-be-released CD, "Welcome to Red Hook Houses."

2:29, Those gangs like the DeGraw Street Boys, Kane Street Midgets, Bishops, etc. were just a little before my time. I do remember zip guns, however. And who could forget the DTKLAMF scribblings in the streets by each gang marking its turf.

Posted by: guest at June 26, 2008 5:07 PM

I remember zip drives. Who could forget the "click of death" noise they would make as your disc was about to get wacked.

Posted by: guest at June 26, 2008 8:12 PM

As a broker who represents buyers/renters mostly in their 20's and 30's looking to move to Brooklyn (some native New Yorkers, some out-of-towners), I can honestly say that not a single person at any price point has ever asked me to find them a place in Gowanus. Go with Carroll Gardens.

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 12:59 AM

I have a question about boundaries. Not names, just physical boundaries.

You moved your fence on Bond Street all the way to the curb. So now the sidewalk just ENDS, which is potentially dangerous, as pedestrians have to step into the street. Can you put up a barrier so that people can safely walk on the edge of the street?

Do your permits allow you to block the entire sidewalk? Why did you put up the fence along the property line and then later move it out?

Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 11:27 AM

Hi Guest 7/7 11:27,

Just noticed your comment. In case you check back: yes, we do have permits to put our fence on the sidewalk. Pedestrians can cross to the opposite side of Bond and walk on that sidewalk which is entirely open. We moved the fence onto the sidewalk after procuring the permits because we needed the extra room on the site to do work along the property line--shoring and foundations.

Posted by: Alison at August 5, 2008 10:52 AM

Post a comment

Please be patient while your comment is published. It may take a moment.

Latest Restaurant Additions