Politicians Rally Against House of D Plans

Interesting. I hadn't realized the HOD plan was so much more expensive. It seems pretty hard to defend.

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 9:06 AM

But then theres all the bussing costs.

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 9:09 AM

"Connor talked about the flourishing downtown Brooklyn neighborhood. “People live here now. It has the fabric of a real community. A jail doesn’t fit – it makes no sense.”

Connor is a perfect example of how a moron goes into politics. People live here now? Excuse me- what did he think lived there for the last 300 years? Lemurs? What he's really saying is it has the fabric of a real rich community. When it was solidly middle and working class he had no interest. And you know what, that's fine- but let's not stoop to insulting the intelligence of the public by claiming as though there was nothing until the rich condo buyers came along.

Keep an eye on the pols- they'll run all over the city making little speeches about every unpopular issue in every neighborhood and get press, then do absolutely nothing.

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 9:13 AM

Open the damn thing already. Better yet, have the city buy up a few dozen brownstones and turn them into halfway houses and residential treatment centers for inmates with both addictions and severe mental illness. After that, the city could open 4 or 5 methadone clinics on Smith and Court Streets. Employment programs could open,too, with inmates getting jobs in cafes, bars, restaurants, and nail salons. C'mon, folks, open up your hearts to the downtrodden!!!

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 9:29 AM

Oh what! and not stuff any more of those in neighborhoods like Crown Heights, and Bed-Stuy? gee -there's a concept.

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 9:38 AM

9:38 -- You're right. I'm sure there are many more addicts in Cobble Hill than there are in Bed Stuy, so that would make lots of sense.

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 10:02 AM

really 10:02? You'd be surprised. And fyi- they don't put shelters and homes in the neighborhoods of the people they are monitoring. they come from all over the city and get shoved down the throats of poorer neighborhoods. Every neighborhood should do its part- but I guess you just don't like the concept of fairness or social responsibility.

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 10:16 AM

you must be joking dave, you think they don't already bus? know how to do that?

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 10:26 AM

every morning on my way to work i see a prison bus on it's way to the courthouse.

i think the security of a bus is way less than the security of a prison.

i don't care if they re-open the prison. it'll keep my rent affordable and keep the 'entitiled' familys from using their strollers on me like battering ram.

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 10:28 AM

No, dave- it'll be: Inmates overwhelm guards, take hostages, run rampant through the neighborhood kicking aside old ladies, slapping babies and picking flowers out of front yards because you know there is such a history of that with the BHOD.

I love Thompson, "Back Off, Dept of Corrections!" Yeah. And won't all these pols be the first to shove their faces in front of the cameras when inmates get early release because of crowded jail conditions? Or bitch that poor neighborhoods shouldn't be overburdened with "services?" Of course only when that presents a photo op.

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 10:30 AM

"social responsibility"

I wish the inmates had heard of that concept

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 10:39 AM

I don't see anyone addressing the fact that this neighborhood already bears far more than its fair share of community services - MTA, Board of Education, all the courts, and many others.

And the detainees will still need to be bussed. The new criminal courthouse at 330 Jay Street is at least 10 blocks from BHOD. Either they bus it or hoof it - and I'm guessing it'll be the former.

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 10:44 AM

i wish some of the residents of brooklyn Heights, Cobble Hill, Boerum and all the politicians had too.

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 10:48 AM

9:13 -- right on. Big time and insulting pandering on the part of the politicians. I guess the previous "community" didn't vote as much as this one.

9:29 -- there is a significant methadone clinic on Court Street already -- near President, I think. Also, on Atlantic Avenue there was a halfway house of sorts for teenage boys and young men in some kind of foster care limbo. It was recently shut down. That was truly a source of crime and will not be missed. I pity the neighborhood that ends up with that facility.

Can we all remember that the HoD is not a prison but a holding center for people being TRIED? Unless I'm missing something? People here seem to think they themselves will never end up in a House of Detention, but it could happen to you. Wrongful arrests happen in even the best justice system. In this one, it happens disproportionately to people of color. If it happened to you, the least you could want is to be easily visited and supported by your friends and family.

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 10:49 AM

Vaguely racist remark. What he really means is: White people live here now.

Well boohoo for the entitled whities in the neighborhood that just moved in. God forbid they should have to see black people visiting and look out those unappealing bail bonds signs. What a load of crap. I would like to see the jail reopen.

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 10:52 AM

i've lived 3 blocks from this thing for 12 years. guess what? who cares? never saw a man in an orange jumpsuit rampaging down smith street.

what do those against this IMAGINE is going to happen? Man escapes and then beats people up in surrounding area? what?

my guess is that the absolute jerk-offs that have migrated to this hood with their tankers full of money are concerned not with the prisoners. but the people VISITING the prisoners. aka - the riff raff.

also - this thing isn't here for no reason. Guess why they call it COURT street.

people around cobble hill/Heights need to toughen the fuck up already and show a microscopic amount of fortitude.

jeez.

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 10:52 AM

9:13 here- I lived in that neighborhood for years. Funny- thought it was a real community with real people to me. Naaahhhhh- I'm hallucinating. we only had invisible people so of course Connor could be expected to make a mistake.

"I pity the neighborhood that ends up with that facility."

and that's my point exactly. Instead of making it better they close it down. they don't do that in neighborhoods like Crown Heights and bed-Stuy and those neighborhoods are probably where that facility will end up now. Those neighborhoods have far more than their fair share of these facilities. It's not fixing the problem, it's Brooklyn Heights and the rest practicing classic NIMBYism.

What you said about the BHOD being a holding center was right on the money. And thank you for saying it.

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 11:01 AM

10:52- GASP! Do you know what you're asking??? Oh the horror!

And you're completely right.

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 11:03 AM

It seems to me that all the people who are up-in-arms about the NIMBY issue are ignoring all of the public policy, correctional policy, and fiscal policy arguments that make a lot of sense. Not to mention the fact that the City is doing all of this in a "blatantly illegal" fashion as evidenced by Mr. Mastro's statements. If you can step outside of your moral outrage for two moments, you might see that this is about more than lower property values or orange jumpsuits clashing with prada bags and strollers.

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 11:07 AM

10.52, I'll forgive you for your race-stupidity. What he means is people who vote live here now.

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 11:12 AM

Who is proposing to put the jail in Crown Heights or Bed-Stuy? Nobody. Why not fix Riker's Island? That was the whole reason BHOD was closed down in the first place. Centralized efficiency. Now suddenly the City reverses its own policy because it dropped the ball with maintaining Riker's?

Commissioner Horn says Queens bears too much of the burden of the jails? Give me a break. Saying Riker's Island is a burden to Queens is like saying Ellis Island is a burden to Manhattan or Brooklyn. Queens has no community jails.

Brooklyn already houses a federal prison in Sunset Park that is home to more than half of the City's federal convicts.

There are places in the City (and in Brooklyn) that are not large commercial and residential hubs - right next to the federal prison in Sunset Park, for one.

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 11:18 AM

George Carlin used to do a great bit about how prisons were great to live near, since if anyone broke out, the immediate are whould be the last place they'd want to hang around.

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 11:21 AM

9:13 your are a complete uneducated DOOOSH....

20 years ago there was crime everywhere in the area it wasnt safe. ANd its safe and very desirable and the purpose of not opening the jail is to keep the area going in the right direction you stupid ass...

Yes I understand people lived here before but not as many that do now and have invested alot of money to an area. The jail was put up in the late 50's when the area had no promiser its a totally different ball game now.

SO leave you ignorant comments to yourself becasue you are bitter at life...

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 11:27 AM

Its obvious that most of the posters here live east of Flatbush Avenue.
Such malevolence agaisnt the communities along Court Street. Or maybe it's envy.

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 11:44 AM

good point 11:44. it's a mystery why so manny are ANGRILY PRO JAIL. or ANTI ANTI JAIL. jeez.

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 12:03 PM

The HOD is an obsolete facility that has been empty and deteriorating for years. It is the very embodiment of the word "dinosaur". Past multi-million dollar renovations have been the embodiment of the word "boondoggle". The City should cut its losses, sell the property for a pretty penny and build a new state of the art facility on Riker's Island where it belongs.

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 12:04 PM

Do you know what pisses me off that people dont realize that gentrification is good for an area. It means better bars,restaurants,shopping and most importanlty safety.

So having all the jail reopen and who knows more bail bond places will open, more traffic and parking in area is all negative impacts on development...

Soi stop being so obstuse and understand what makes sense...

The ignorant thing is it was there so let it stay there that is a dumb f "in" comment the area has changed dramatically

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 12:16 PM

D-O-N-E-D-E-A-L!!!

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 12:28 PM

When the jail was built, that part of Atlantic Avenue was considered an urban wasteland just waiting for the bulldozers.
Cities are tenacious though, and now the HOD is in the very heart of brownstone Brooklyn.
There is no reason to keep this jail in Boerum Hill any more than to keep cardboard box manufacturers in DUMBO. Times change, cities evolve. What seemed like a great idea in 1958 may not be such a good idea in 2008.

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 12:53 PM

I-L-L-E-G-A-L

I-D-I-O-T-I-C B-U-R-E-A-C-R-A-C-Y!!!!

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 12:53 PM

amazing what distorted perspective when the dork mention bars and restaurants first as benefits of gentrification.
I'd gladly trade most of the bars and plenty of the restaurants.
And reason HOD is there is not because Atlantic Ave was wasteland in 1958 and it is not in heart of brownstone brooklyn.
It is across from the court house and part of commercial/business/goverment center of downtown brooklyn.
Whether it makes $ sense to expand capacity I don't know - but using the current facility probably does make $ sense and practical sense and does no harm to surrounding neighborhoods.

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 1:08 PM

1:08 - That's just it. It doesn't make $ sense OR practical sense to use the current facility. Closing it in 2003 has gained the City more than $5 million in annual savings due to economies of scale. The old facility is not only inhumane (imagine living in 40 square feet of space), but it's also completely inefficient. That's WHY it was closed in the first place.

Commissioner Horn doesn't want to open it without expanding it because that makes no sense. That's why he has to expand it. And the DOC wants to ignore all the legal mandates required by such an expansion.

Is Bloomberg asleep at the wheel? His own chief financial officer is calling for him to sell this monstrosity. The City's in a financial crisis. Maybe it's lame-duck syndrome.

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 1:21 PM

But, 1:08, the current relic that is sitting there now does not meet today's guidelines and would have to have a crapload of money to make it useable. They can't just sweep the floors and call it a day.

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 1:22 PM

I don't understand why the jail has to be so close to the courts. Do the inmates prefer shorter bus trips? They have to be bused to the courthouse one way or another. The Bleeding hearts may be well-intentioned but they are mistaken. The existing facility is really gross and inhumane. There is nothing that favors the inmate population there. On the contrary.

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 1:41 PM

I have asked the bigwigs at the company I work for if they would move right next to me so I don't have to commute on the subway or the bus and so that I can be closer to my family.

The Guest

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 2:10 PM

"Commissioner Horn says Queens bears too much of the burden of the jails? Give me a break. Saying Riker's Island is a burden to Queens is like saying Ellis Island is a burden to Manhattan or Brooklyn. Queens has no community jails."

I guess you have never visited Rikers Island. People don;t sit in backed up bottle neck traffic trying to get on and off of Ellis Island. I feel for the people who live along the route to the BQE. They have to deal with traffic from those buses making hundreds of trips to courts in S.I., the Bronx, Brooklyn, Manhattan and Queens all day Monday through Friday. During shift change the traffic is backed up from the BQE all the way to the Island.

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 3:24 PM

I just bought 3 blocks away. Use it as a prison, don't use it as a prison, doesn't matter. I don't think having a bunch of people locked up and awaiting trial affects anything. And when they let them on the streets it is one of the few times these people are unarmed, so they are relativly harmless.

Now if they replaced it with a high school, where they let the criminals out on the streets every day, that would be something worth protesting. Do you ever see a story like the queens stabbing happen because a bunch of prisoners were just released?

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 3:25 PM

I just want to run over somebody with my double-wide stroller, carrying twins. Don't care who. Escaped inmate, visitor, blind guy, wormy neighbor that hates kids. Doesn't matter. I just want to batter people because I am entitled damnit all.

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 3:33 PM

And after I run over a some folks, I am going straight to the bar, with my kids, for an afternoon beer. Ahhh beer.

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 3:36 PM

9:13 here- 11:27- seeing as I lived there for well over 20 years and saw it go from a nice quiet, reasonable to rent in neighborhood to a gentrified, hi end area I"d say i know quite a bit more about it than you. When did you move there? 3 weeks ago? Now I could understnd if the jail had been a real problem, but it NEVER was. It was built there because it was convenient to the courts and families. And guess what? The courts till haven't moved so why should the jail-which was never completely closed. Get your facts straight - this is NYC. You don't like looking at a jail in your precious neighborhood, put on blinders. Which you're probably already wearing.

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 4:20 PM

4:20
Have you ever thought that maybe you have lived in Brooklyn too long?

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 4:59 PM

No- I think you have tho'

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 7:02 PM

Bussing prisoners from Rikers to the courts in Brooklyn and back every day? How can you people even suggest that without feeling complete embarrassment.

SUCH a classic NIMBY phoney limousine liberal move. Try using some consistent values for once. Bussing back and forth every day would be horrible for the environment. And for the already bad congestion. Buses spew out tons of pollutants, gobble up tons of fuel. So so so so irresponsible.

Well not that any of this matters or this jail will be stopped. Protestors numbered in the "Dozens" = 20 people maybe in newspaper speak. It's a non-story.

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 8:27 PM

DOC houses inmates in trailer dormitories which are attached to all of the ten older jails on Rikers Island. The trailers were supposed to be a temporary fix for a burgeoning jail population back in 1991. New jail construction was planned in 1995-1998 but due to budget cuts, the plans were sacked. The dorms are now falling apart and not very secure.

Post-Katrina, the federal governmwent and various oversight and prisoner rights groups demanded that the city come up with a viable evacuation plan for Rikers Island which is below sea level in the East River. During high tide, staff members who park too close to the parking lots edge, often find their cars submerged in water. In the event of a major hurricane, 90% of the island, most of which is landfill, would be submerged. Evacuation would be almost impossible because there is only one two lane bridge on and off of the island, there are not enough buses to get everybody off and the bridge access would be flooded first because it is below sea level.

DOC's center of operations must be spread out. This makes good tactical sense. It is harder for gangs and organized crime to communicate when they don't have proximity to each other. Inmates in one jail can currently pass information by leaving notes called kites, in the recreation yards and signaling each other out of their cell windows.

Laguardia airport is literally just feet away from the Island. One plane crashed onto the island in the 1950's and another into the river almost severing the bridge in 1988. In 1950's there were no injuries to anyone on the island because there was only one jail on the island at that time. There are now 10 and the entire bus fleet is stationed on Rikers.

The Brooklyn House opened in 1957 on Atlantic to replace the Raymond Street jail which had been in operation on Raymond street since the 1800's. Raymond Street is now Ashland Place. There has ALWAYS been a jail downtown, near the courts.

The Brooklyn Correctional Facility called BCF or the Brigg which was on Flushing Avenue by the Navy yard was closed and sold for development.

The residents of East Elmhurst carry more than their share of the burden by housing the city's inmates most of whom come from Brooklyn, the most populus borough.

All of the above are excellent reasons why the jail should reopen right where it is and the DOC should build another in the Bronx. BTW, Brooklyn House had to house inmates, especially those on-trial, with Staten Island cases. So, DOC should be looking for another site to build a jail in Staten Island. This is NIMBY and nothing more. If a jail were in Brownsville and the DOC was considering putting it into use once again, you wouldn't here a word from Boerum Hill or Brooklyn Heights residents about the issue no matter how much money the city spent.

Posted by: guest at June 27, 2008 8:41 PM

Questions:

Where was all of this outrage from 'Stop the Jail' when the city wasted money renovating this place? Better yet, where was the outrage when the city contemplated building in Hunts Point? Why was 'Stop the Jail', who now considers themselves experts on prisoners rights, not concerned about the federal prisoners being abused in the Federal jail in Sunset Park?

One Answer:

Wasn't in their neighborhood. NIMBY dumbasses should not have bought property in the jails backyard if they didn't want to live near a jail. These politicians are full of it. They are pandering for votes. If their constituents were in the neighborhoods where the many of the family members of inmates lived, they'd be for the jail. I bet if I started a movement called "Open the Jail" I could rally the unions, judges, business people from the area, inmate family members and the sensible residents of this neighborhood, several of these politicians would be singing a different tune.

Posted by: guest at June 28, 2008 10:23 AM

"I bet if I started a movement called "Open the Jail" I could rally the unions, judges, business people from the area, inmate family members and the sensible residents of this neighborhood, several of these politicians would be singing a different tune."

True. It would be so easy to show the support for reopening the jail far outweighs the protests.

Why do a few homeowners believe they have the right to decide something like this based on their own narrow selfish personal interests? They're the Landed Gentry of privileged white male homeowners in Brooklyn.

Posted by: guest at June 28, 2008 12:36 PM

As a privileged white female homeowner just blocks away from the jail, I can promise you that I bought my place with the full knowledge that it could open again at any time. I've lived in this neighborhood now for 15 years and while I love some of what gentrification has brought, I also am appalled and embarrassed by what I perceived as the NIMBY attitude.

However, if the facts are that it would cost more to renovate the Brooklyn HOD than to renovate Rikers, then that's a different story. I'm reserving my opinion until I understand what really is at stake here.

Posted by: guest at June 28, 2008 4:08 PM

It's not just about the renovation costs. That's like one issue out of ten they have to consider here.

Read again this thread and see the very well informed and reasoned posts about how it affects those who work in the courts, if the prisoners are kept at Rikers not near the courthouse. Bussing prisoners, and attorneys and D.A. always having to travel to Rikers. Etc etc etc.

I have a friend who works in the D.A.'s office. He works really hard and it's for all our benefit. Why make his job and life harder? Just because of unfounded ridiculous panic over your property values. Manhattan has a jail near Tribeca. You WISH your property values would be like Tribeca. This is just a lot of irrational nonsense from nincompoops. Move to the suburbs and spare us.

Posted by: guest at June 29, 2008 10:08 AM

How do you raise Riker's Island above sea level? Or is it more cost effective to build levees around it? We all know that levees will keep water out in extreme weather. What about the security issues with keeping the prisoners in a centralized location? Fixing Rikers doesn't address this.

If you don't have loved ones working there, including the defense attornies, court officials, medical staff or family incarcerated there, I guess that your property value, which BTW will not decrease because of the Brooklyn House reopening, is more important to you.

Posted by: guest at June 29, 2008 11:17 AM

bxgrl, your numbers are impressive, but is it the case that every building and location of Rikers needs to be fully renovated in order to continue to house the Brooklyn detainees? Sure, it would take more money to renovate the entire Brooklyn Museum than my apartment, but if in reality they just needed to upgrade one toilet stall vs. an entire gutting of my brownstone, then it's no comparison. In this case, I think there should be a comparison of the actual work plans somewhere that addresses this more appropriately.

I'm still not opposed to the jail re-opening - oddly, the only thing I'm opposed to is the "Stop the Jail" movement itself - but really, that's as much of a knee-jerk reaction in me (I hate NIMBY attitudes) as theirs is to the idea of the jail. But what are the facts? I'm okay either way - jail, no jail. But I'd like to see a decision based on what makes the most sense.

Posted by: guest at June 30, 2008 6:58 AM

4.08 - how are you privileged?

Posted by: guest at June 30, 2008 9:24 AM

It is great that your friend works in the DA's office works hard. So do the thousands of CO's and other staff that have to trek out there on a daily basis. Their lives are at risk EVERYDAY. Not just on the occassional visit. Rikers is antiquated and should be shut down. Re-Open the Brooklyn House! As a matter of fact open another jail in one of the new condo buildings downtown, right on top of the condo's.

Posted by: guest at June 30, 2008 12:42 PM

Here are some facts-

Having worked in the building before, I can tell you that the city will never let go of this place. Can you imagine the city trying to get some real estate to build a new prison somewhere? Never gonna happen- they'll fight this to the end.

It is needed since it is for people on-trial. It would take 4 hrs each way to get people in an out of Rikers to appear in court. There is no option but to keep it.

It was closed because the existing building does not have enough light for inmates (they lost some court case I believe). They need to spend about $15M to provide new "security windows". That's just the windows, folks, and that doesn't include upgrading the interiors.

Posted by: guest at June 30, 2008 1:27 PM