You Have $140K Down, Where Do You Buy?

renting is for idiots.

Posted by: guest at May 30, 2008 10:04 AM

Philly.

Posted by: guest at May 30, 2008 10:09 AM

"His philosophy as "an evangelist for renting" has been that once you add in the closing costs, repairs, property taxes, mortgage principal, mortgage interest, and other monthly bills if you own a condo or co-op, you MIGHT be earning more on your $140,000 down payment if it were invested in something besides real estate."

And the word I capitalized there, is the key word of that sentence. And it's a very big MIGHT. I bought in 2006 and comps are already showing an $85,000 appreciation since when I bought. No way I would have made that in 2 years on an 140K investment.

Posted by: guest at May 30, 2008 10:14 AM

owning is for those whose lives are so predictable and boring that they'll live in the same city for five years.

Posted by: guest at May 30, 2008 10:17 AM

The Lodi place is junk. Seriously, though, you can do much better with $700K in NJ. Not saying I would go there, but look in places like Maplewood and you'll find nice stuff to buy for $700K.

Posted by: guest at May 30, 2008 10:17 AM

uhhh....philly's murder and crime rate are out of control right now...

Posted by: guest at May 30, 2008 10:18 AM

I would buy the Lodi house for the down payment alone, nothing higher.

Posted by: guest at May 30, 2008 10:19 AM

The Crest, more bang for your buck with plenty of ammenities nearby.

Posted by: guest at May 30, 2008 10:21 AM

Thanks for the Lodi reference, Mr. B!

Rent check is due tomorrow.

Posted by: guest at May 30, 2008 10:24 AM

A good friend of mine just bought a place in Concord Village for 550k in the C line:

http://www.concordvillageny.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=12&Itemid=29

It's a lousy location, granted, but they are zoned for PS8 and have enough money to maintain a large country house in Columbia County. I'm not so sure I wouldn't do this -- esp if the Shake Shack does come to metrotech.

Posted by: guest at May 30, 2008 10:25 AM

I can't believe people are still touting all the gains they made in real estate between 2001 and 2007 as the reason to buy now. If that's the case, I have some great Citibank stock to sell at $50 a share. I've also made a ton of money buying Euros -- so, if I were you, I'd just invest all my money in Euros right now. Can't miss. Dollars is for suckers. Or, invest in AOL, I remember when I bought at $10 and it went to $100 a share. You should only invest in AOL, like I did. How smart I was back then, so you should do the same right now.

Posted by: guest at May 30, 2008 10:25 AM

Marine Park-Brooklyn's best kept secret 1920's brick tudor 500k, & its non-ghetto

Posted by: guest at May 30, 2008 10:26 AM

Philly? New Jersey? Florida? United States? Disgusting at best. I would only stick with the Capital of the world NYC. I would Buy in BOCOCA or Park Slope I think they are solid Investments. Or Manhattan Of course.

Posted by: guest at May 30, 2008 10:29 AM

Bridgeview?? Agree that Downtown Brooklyn is a good neighbourhood (more because of the potential than what it is at the moment), but why Bridgeview? There's a ton of apartments that are better located and better priced. Oro, Toren... why the hell Bridgeview??

Of the developments coming up, looks like Toren gives the most bang for buck, though Oro has the advantage of being almost ready for move in.

Posted by: guest at May 30, 2008 10:34 AM

Bridgeview?? Agree that Downtown Brooklyn is a good neighbourhood (more because of the potential than what it is at the moment), but why Bridgeview? There's a ton of apartments that are better located and better priced. Oro, Toren... why the hell Bridgeview??

Of the developments coming up, looks like Toren gives the most bang for buck, though Oro has the advantage of being almost ready for move in.

Posted by: guest at May 30, 2008 10:36 AM

10:14 post again once you've sold.

Posted by: guest at May 30, 2008 10:38 AM

Think he was moving to DC, not washington state, but that article was so dull, I'm not going to read it again.

Posted by: guest at May 30, 2008 10:42 AM

I think Sarah put the Lodi house up as an expample of "The What"'s dream house in his ideal neighborhood. Maybe one of those lottery tickets will pay off for him.

Posted by: guest at May 30, 2008 10:47 AM

According to StreetEasy:
Park Slope (The Crest) property has been on the market at the same price for almost one year (June 07);
Prospect Heights (Washington Condos) apt is in contract after 335 days on market and listing price reduced from 739K to 669K;
Bushwick has been on the market for 105 days with 20K price reduction on 2/15;
Williamsburg appears to have just sold after 246 days on market and reduction from 710K to 689K;
Bridge Street has been on the market for 119 days.
These data make one wonder if now is time to jump in or if prices will continue to decline.

Posted by: guest at May 30, 2008 10:51 AM

10.25 - Columbia county is a three hour drive. With the prices there you can "maintain a large country house" with a $30k salary.

On the subject of Columbia county, does anyone know why the city of Hudson has so many really old buildings left standing, including federal brick and early victorian? Really great old houses with cupolas, walled gardens and the like, including the very old ones at the bottom of the hill. Unfortunately, some genius built projects down there too so its got a very weird vibe, and the houses will just fall away and disintergrate in the end I'm sure.

Posted by: guest at May 30, 2008 10:53 AM

Brownstoner please read the NYTimes article before posting.
David Leonhardt purchased a place in DC and NOT Washington State!

Posted by: guest at May 30, 2008 11:02 AM

I wouldn't buy any of these, that's for sure. The Crest? Man, just go south 15 blocks and you'll see much better product on quieter streets, including some late model resale condos that have the advantage of already being established.

What about south slope, greenwood/sunset park and WT/kensington? Definitely better deals to be had there, in nicer neighborhoods.

Posted by: guest at May 30, 2008 11:10 AM

I read that article yesterday and have to agree with the logic (although he doesn't quite explain how to add "maintenance" in -- I assume you add annual costs to the price).

So, since I can rent a 2 bedroom in park slope for $34,000 per year (~2800/mo), I'll be looking to buy when I can get a 2 bedroom somewhere I want to live for ~15x that (500-550K).

To pay 700K, I'd need my rent to go up to $46500 a year ($3875/mo).

Posted by: guest at May 30, 2008 11:36 AM

I would go to Bedford Stuyvesant or Crown Heights. I want a nice brownstone but I can not afford even with 140K to live in Park Slope or Ft. Greene. I can handle the crime I lived in Ft Greene back in the early 90s. Bedford Stuyvesant seems to have the same architecture as Park Slope but the homes are like 800K and well perserved.

Posted by: guest at May 30, 2008 11:49 AM

11:49: This is why I don't live in Bed Stuy:

^^^^^
Suspect Shot by Police Officer in Brooklyn

NEW YORK (1010 WINS) -- A 28-year-old man was shot by police in Brooklyn Thursday afternoon after he allegedly opened fire from a minivan and shot a woman in the leg.

1010 WINS AUDIO: Al Jones Reports

The incident happened in front of 175 Patchen Avenue near Macon Street in Bedford Stuyvesant around 4:30 p.m.

Police say the suspect was in a red minivan with North Carolina plates when he opened fire and hit a 32-year-old woman in the leg before speeding away.

Police officers followed the suspect as he drove south on Patchen Avenue. The suspect crashed the van on Macon Street and then pulled out a .45-caliber Starfire semi-automatic firearm and exchanged fire with the police, officials said.

The suspect was shot once in the hip, police said.

Both the suspect and the woman were taken to Kings County Hospital in stable condition.

None of the officers were injured.

Posted by: guest at May 30, 2008 12:04 PM

You are a whimp 12:04. Patchen is in Ocean Hill

Posted by: guest at May 30, 2008 12:21 PM

12:16, Because in 30 years you will be done paying for the house.

You must then factor in the remaining years of your life that you will be renting...

I will have my house paid off at age 59. Will you want to be renting at that age, approaching retirement and on a fixed income??

Posted by: guest at May 30, 2008 12:21 PM

right now, williamsburg just east of the BQE is a good deal, and has a tremendous upside - from the Brooklyn Eagle:
"North Williamsburg and East Williamsburg: The average prices for condos in these areas were each up 12 percent to an average price of $798,000 and $510,000 respectively. Overall, Williamsburg had 35 sales compared to 31 last April."

South of Richardson/North of Metropolitan puts you in PS132 school district - excellent school. It's being gentrified from an Italian neighborhoood - it's very safe. This was the hood i was mostly strongly considering, but ended up buying in North/Prime Williamsburg because i found the perfect apt there.

I have lived in P. Heights and really hated it - i was constantly harassed and found that a lot of amenities where just not close enough.

Posted by: guest at May 30, 2008 12:23 PM

Someone is not a wimp for not wanting to raise their family in a crime-ridden ghetto. Murders and shootings in Clinton Hill, Bed Stuy and Crown Heights have been MORE than disturbing this past year.

Anyone who chooses to raise a family in that environment needs to have their head examined. Especially considering the asinine amounts people are paying to live in those neighborhoods.

When PS, Ft. Greene, etc were that bad, you could buy a house for 250K.

Not 1.7 million.

Posted by: guest at May 30, 2008 12:24 PM

Williamsburg is a dump

Posted by: guest at May 30, 2008 12:25 PM

you'd have to pay ME 700K to live in Billyburg!

Posted by: guest at May 30, 2008 12:39 PM

Mr Spock - b/c the apartment will be worth $75,000,000 in 300 years. With your vulcan life span, you can't lose in real estate. Live long and prosper!

Posted by: guest at May 30, 2008 12:44 PM

Yeah and home in Park Slope was 600K whats your point? Please show me a 1.7 million dollar home in Bedford Stuyvesant. The brownstones in BS at best might be 900K.

Posted by: guest at May 30, 2008 12:46 PM

Also Hancock and MacDonough all those scary 70 year old black homeowners

Posted by: guest at May 30, 2008 12:49 PM

12:21, the idea is that if you are renting because it is cheaper than buying you are saving and investing the savings over 30 years (rather than pouring that money into a mortgage).

So, when the person who bought has paid off their mortgage and has all the value of their property, you have the value of 30 years of investing (stocks, bonds, gold, whatever) stored up to support you in old age.

On the other hand, if you rent but don't invest the money you save (v. buying) in some reasonable manner, then you will almost certainly be worse off than if you had bought.

Renting is better than buying (in the current market) if and only if you actually do something sensible with the money you save.

And probably the most sensible thing is to keep it somewhere safe so you can buy sometime in the next few years when prices get closer to 15x annual rent.

Posted by: guest at May 30, 2008 12:51 PM

900K for Bed Stuy is absurd.

That neighborhood is still a total ghetto. High crime, horrible poverty and the absolute worst schools. You think that's worth 900K?

You are VERY foolish.

Posted by: guest at May 30, 2008 12:53 PM

12.21 - you'll stuill be paying property taxes and insursnce forever on your fixed income - or do you think they will be abolished?

Posted by: guest at May 30, 2008 12:56 PM

Dave Leonhardt is an idiot. You buy in or close to Downtown Brooklyn. Conservatively assuming, your $700,000 condo increases in value @ 2% per year. You'll be earning a return of 10% on that $140,000. More than likely, you'll double your investment in 5 years in or around DT Brooklyn. No-brainer!

Posted by: guest at May 30, 2008 12:58 PM

"On the other hand, if you rent but don't invest the money you save (v. buying) in some reasonable manner, then you will almost certainly be worse off than if you had bought."

___
This is the KEY!!! Barely anyone in this country has enough saved for retirement, even homeowners. Something like 60% of the population has less than 10K saved for retirement.

I'd prefer to at least own my home by the time that rolls around. Stock markets don't always pan out either...

I don't even want to THINK about what rents will cost when I'm 65. With potential health problems, etc, renting sounds like a very scary proposition in old age. That's just me, though.

Posted by: guest at May 30, 2008 1:06 PM

Bed Stuy houses can be had for under $700K, but you will be forced to deal with black people. I think that scares more of the idiots on this site than anything else.

Posted by: guest at May 30, 2008 1:11 PM

I am looking to buy in Bed Stuy also.. the homes are absolutely gorgeous. My best friend just closed on a 4 story brownstone on a great block for 800K with every detail from 1885 still in place… I love the southern end of the area near Fulton Street. The only thing right now that I don’t like about the area are the schools but other than that the crime really is not all that bad… Some people on here seem to like to hype things up…

Posted by: guest at May 30, 2008 1:12 PM

I think you right 1:11

Posted by: guest at May 30, 2008 1:16 PM

Buy in Hoboken Nj, it is a better location than any of these and has great convenience to the city and shops and any thing else you would want.

Posted by: guest at May 30, 2008 1:20 PM

"Marine Park-Brooklyn's best kept secret 1920's brick tudor 500k, & its non-ghetto"

It's a ghetto for guidos, wannabe mobsters and high-school drop-outs. Not a safe place for non-Italians and non-whites.

Posted by: guest at May 30, 2008 1:21 PM

NO ONE is buying Bed Stuy right now.

Downtown Brooklyn and the Blue Chip neighborhoods are where it's at.

Park Slope is doing better in this "downturn" than any other neighborhood. Sales in 2008 are UP from 2007.

As are prices.

A neighborhood that does that in a bad economy is a good neighborhood for the long haul.

Posted by: guest at May 30, 2008 1:21 PM

1:20, it's in New Jersey.

YUCK!

Posted by: guest at May 30, 2008 1:22 PM

"Anyone who chooses to raise a family in that environment needs to have their head examined. Especially considering the asinine amounts people are paying to live in those neighborhoods."

Ah yes, the smug & superior elitist super mommies declaring anyone who can't afford Park Slope are terrible parents.

Somehow someway thousands and thousands of families have raised their children in these neighborhoods through the years and NO, they are not all thugs.

Get over yourselves, please. We'll see how great a job you did at your own parenting when your kids are teenagers, not mere toddlers. Don't pat yourself on the back too soon.

Posted by: guest at May 30, 2008 1:23 PM

1.23 - the point was its irresponsible of you to live there - theres plenty of safe nabes that aren't park slope.

Posted by: guest at May 30, 2008 1:33 PM

yes 1.11 - you are right. Becuase that idea fits your own personal prejudices.

Posted by: guest at May 30, 2008 1:35 PM

"Anyone who chooses to raise a family in that environment needs to have their head examined. Especially considering the asinine amounts people are paying to live in those neighborhoods."
that persons parents did not do a good job with them. They are KKK elitist...

Posted by: guest at May 30, 2008 1:38 PM

I love Brooklyn and never thought I would say it, but I'm thinking that if I ever have a family, I think I would choose Maplewood/South Orange if I couldn't afford Short Hills/Millburn.

I love the feel of those towns and after driving around looking at open houses, there is a lot to choose from in terms of architecture, not to mention how positively lush it is in the Spring. The mid-town direct serves both communities and brings you to the city as quickly as the F does from the Slope.

The communities are diverse in people and architecture and boast many amenities such as shops, restaurants and parks. You can get a pretty nice 1920s tudor or colonial on a nice lot with mature trees for $600-750K there and have some left over to pay your property taxes, which are admittedly exorbitant. Private schools aren't a necessity, but your kids may know that black people exist before they enter the real world which is more than you can say for towns like Chatham, Madison, Morris Twp. and Mendham. Maplewood and South Orange are perfect for the NPR-listening set who have grown tired of their cramped city abodes.

For now, while I'm unmarried and unencumbered by children, Brooklyn it is, but I may change my tune 10 years from now. It doesn't make a lot of sense to pay $12-20K a year in property taxes if you don't have kids in the schools.

I certainly don't see why anyone would chastise someone for moving outside of the city so they can have more space and can send their children to better schools.

If you are moving to Lodi however...

Posted by: guest at May 30, 2008 1:46 PM

I live in Bed Stuy and love it, 1:35. (1:11 here). I am not black and I am not afraid of black people. Why do you think I have a personal prejudice? Don't make assumptions about me since I know you don't know me.

Now for the "normal" people on this post ....

The biggest draw back to the area is the lack of services. (OK, now the police blotter trolls are going ot come out!)

There is a long-standing and large group of homeowners who have done a great job of creating a community. They have pride in their community, maintain their homes and make new people and strangers feel welcome. Strangers frequently say "hi" as they pass you. I know that doesn't fit into the perceptions of the area, but those perceptions are either incorrect or dated.

You don't have to live here or raise your children here. Your choice. But don't make comments based on heresay and fear.

Posted by: guest at May 30, 2008 1:48 PM

To answer the original question, I would probably opt for Washington Condos in Prospect Heights - 3 bedrooms! Nice layout, proper closets. Next choice would be Williamsburg.

mrspock, based on apartments I've been looking at your maintenance looks a bit high for the size (I'm sure you could pay that if you liked) and $1,000 a square foot seems pricier than you would have to pay. Is 7% the going rate? I closed 3 months ago on a 30 year fixed (conforming) at 5.25%. Apparently, I was lucky on that point if you're right.

Posted by: guest at May 30, 2008 1:59 PM

"KKK elitist"

Thats an oxymoron if ever there was one.

Posted by: guest at May 30, 2008 2:00 PM

1.48 - classic post - makes assumptions about the people on the site then gets angry when someone makes assumptions about him. great.

Posted by: guest at May 30, 2008 2:02 PM

To answer the original question, I would probably opt for Washington Condos in Prospect Heights - 3 bedrooms! Nice layout, proper closets. Next choice would be Williamsburg.

mrspock, based on apartments I've been looking at your maintenance looks a bit high for the size (I'm sure you could pay that if you liked) and $1,000 a square foot seems pricier than you would have to pay. Is 7% the going rate? I closed 3 months ago on a 30 year fixed (conforming) at 5.25%. Apparently, I was lucky on that point if you're right.

Posted by: guest at May 30, 2008 2:02 PM

I'm sure theres great communities in other dangerous areas - but so what?

Posted by: guest at May 30, 2008 2:04 PM

your a wannabe 1:22. Brooklyn is nice if you live in Brooklyn Heights, every other area lacks. Manhattan is the it place if your really concerned about being a elitist.

Posted by: guest at May 30, 2008 2:05 PM

Bed Stuy is a really bad place to live if you have $800k to spend 1:12pm. The resale value in Bed Stuy will be nonexistent.

Anyone who chooses to raise a family in that environment needs to have their head examined. Especially considering the asinine amounts people are paying to live in those neighborhoods

Posted by: guest at May 30, 2008 2:10 PM

"NO ONE is buying in Bed Stuy now".

Amazing that you were able to assemble that statistic from total thin air.

Also amazing are the THOUSANDS of families raising their children in BS now, and for the last 50 or so years, producing thousands of tax paying, go to work everyday, non criminal citizens, just like everywhere else. How bout that!

Posted by: guest at May 30, 2008 2:14 PM

Bed Stuy is GREAT if you're not white.

Posted by: guest at May 30, 2008 2:21 PM

bed stuy is great if you don't care about crime, crappy schools and no services.

other than that, it's nearly PERFECT!!

Posted by: guest at May 30, 2008 2:28 PM

slopenick,

There is not a cause and effect relationship between perceived and real risk. It is just that on those occasions when there *is* a significant divergence between the two, there is created an opportunity to profit if you can spot the divergence.

Sometimes, the market is right.

Posted by: guest at May 30, 2008 2:46 PM

Mrspock: your assumption of 1% above inflation for appreciation is above the historic averages. More importantly, given the appreciation of recent years, it is unreasonable to expect the next period to come close to the historic norms -- a significant drop is far more likely.

Accordingly, your purchase projections are too optimistic and your rental equivalent should be higher. Buying is not nearly as good a deal as you suggest.

On the other hand, you are requiring a 15% return on your downpayment, which seems a bit rich -- or maybe that is to reflect the risk that you won't earn your 4% return.

Posted by: guest at May 30, 2008 3:03 PM

Hoboken is a great choice - $700K gets you:

The Hudson Tea condo
13 foot ceilings.
1200 Sq Ft.
2 bedroom
2 bath
granite counters
stainless steel appliances,
wainescoating in bedroom
parking
24 hour doorman
community room
free, 2700 sq ft. state of the art gym
one block to the ferry
private shuttle to the PATH
bus to Port Authority at corner
Restaurants and bars at your doorstep
Some units have amazing NYC views
10 minutes to Manhattan
vibrant, urban living with a small town feel

Who on earth would you choose Lodi over Hoboken?

Posted by: guest at May 30, 2008 3:11 PM

"1.23 - the point was its irresponsible of you to live there - theres plenty of safe nabes that aren't park slope."

Except the definition of "safe" for you elitists is whether the neighborhood is black or white. That's all it takes for you. You could easily call the precinct somewhere about a particular street you're considering and find out if there is actually crime there. But no, why do that when you can make vast generalizations? I actually question YOUR parenting. You way overpay for real estate leaving you house poor so you can't afford to give your child the extras in life like international travel or paying for college years from now so they don't have to take out a student loan.

Posted by: guest at May 30, 2008 3:18 PM

3:11,

I use to live in Hoboken. Now I live in Park Slope.

Hoboken is a nice place. The first time I saw Park Slope I remember thinking "this is what Hoboken wants to be when it grows up".

The better neighborhoods of Brooklyn are better than Hoboken, but I'm not sure how much longer Brooklyn can support prices too much higher than Hoboken.

However, 10 minutes to Manhattan is the usual realtor misinformation.

Once the PATH train leaves the station you will be at Christopher or World Trade in 10-15 minutes if there are no delays.

If the place you are living has a shuttle to PATH, I assume it is 1/2 mile or so away, so add 10 minutes for the shuttle.

And then ~5 minutes for a train during rush hour and 15-45 minutes for a train off peak hours.

So that's, 25-70 minutes to Manhattan.

Oh, and parking is worse than Park Slope. Believe it or not...

Posted by: guest at May 30, 2008 3:20 PM

3:11

If you can afford to live at Hudson Tea you can afford to take the Ferry - it really is 10 minutes.

The Hudson Tea unit includes deeded parking.

Get your facts straight.

Posted by: guest at May 30, 2008 3:29 PM

"Bed Stuy is GREAT if you're not white."

But Dave is white.

Posted by: guest at May 30, 2008 3:32 PM

3:11

People who can afford to live at Hudson Tea, instead of the west side walk-ups, can afford to take the ferry. It departs from pier 1 block away from the front door of the building.

I neglected to mention that the unit described comes with deeded parking included in the price. Parking is only a problem in Hoboken if you are too cheap to pay for it.

Posted by: guest at May 30, 2008 3:32 PM

The people who think Bed Stuy is a ghetto have not been there in a loooooooong time. Keep in your lilly white bubbles.

White people are afraid of black people for absolutely no reason. You pay crazy prices to live in a "safe" neighborhood and ASSume everywhere else is "fringe" "ghetto" and "crime ridden", For those of us who live in Bed Stuy, we know the truth because we live it every day. You are simply talking out of your asses.

2:02: You are a moron who added nothing to the conversation. Nothing.

Posted by: guest at May 30, 2008 4:41 PM

There are a lot of non-african americans in bed-stuy. You all need to get out more.

Posted by: guest at May 30, 2008 4:49 PM

4.41pm

With all due respect, you could not be farther from the truth. Bed-stuy is crime ridden. You just have to look at the prencint reports, or the gun-related violence reports. These are reports which summarise a systematic pattern of violence (murder, rape, assault, larceny) much higher than the surrounding neighbourhoods.

To say that Bed-stuy is not crime-ridden is just statitically wrong, regardless of what role demographics may or may not play.

Posted by: guest at May 30, 2008 6:05 PM

i live in philly,and u can get a 3bed. row house(kinda like the ones in east new york and red hook)here for 30K.better bring a gun though.

Posted by: guest at May 30, 2008 6:39 PM

Downtown or Park slope. Safest bets.

Posted by: guest at May 30, 2008 8:39 PM

6:05: You are an idiot.

If you knew anything about Bed-Stuy you would know that it is HUGE and the crime stats cover both the unsafe projects to the north and the extremely safe southern parts of the area. You can easily live in Bed-Stuy and not see, hear or be a victim of crime. I have lived in the area for over 3 years and my biggest problems are the squirrels digging up my flowers and trying to get through the neighborhood we every other block is having a block party.

So the next time you even think of putting your lilly-white fingers on a key board to make a generalization about a neighborhood of which you have NO knowledge, think twice. Otherwise you will prove the point all of us in Bed-Stuy already now: You have never been here and you are afraid to find out what it is really like because of your racism.

Posted by: guest at May 30, 2008 9:19 PM

why real estate works compared to stocks:
10,000 invested in stocks may become 20,000 in 5 years, if you are very lucky. If you are like most stock investors, you will come out with about 8,000 after 5 years due to most stock investors' inexperience.
10,000 in real estate can be leveraged into purchasing a two family home with a rental income.
while the stock value could easily tumble to zero, it is unlikely that a real estate investment would devalue to zero, even then, you could still live in it and have a roof over your head, what do you do with a stock certificate? use it for kindling while you're sleeping on a park bench?
here's the biggie; say your investment in real estate goes through the roof? you could sell it and pay zero capital gains for the first million if married or 500k if not. if your stock takes off and you sell, get ready to pay uncle sam his share of about 200 thousand. what's more, real estate investments have huge write-offs in depreciation and mortgage interest. try writing off 500 class A shares of IBM.

Posted by: guest at May 30, 2008 10:34 PM

Look up the 79TH precinct in Bedford Stuyvesant where I live. in 1990 there was 71 murders today there has been one this year and that was new years and the person was mental and the police killed him.. So you people really should check your facts first...

Posted by: guest at May 30, 2008 10:41 PM

10:53: The reason there are so many lovely old buildings remaining in Hudson is that for many years absolutely nobody was interested in the City, and thought it didn't even merit "urban renewal." Properties couldn't be sold, so they were just boarded up and left to rot. Then twenty or so years ago, antique dealers from NYC and elsewhere started gravitating to Warren Street, Hudson's main drag, buying dilapidated buildings for very little, and restoring them as shops, with either their residences or rental apartments upstairs.

I own a house in Hudson, and would advise you to get a good education in property taxes upstate before you think of buying there. While there's a lot of inventory on the market, the property taxes are astronomical (there's no limit on one to three family houses, as there is in the five boroughs)and the local municipalities tend to do what's called "sales chasing." That is, when you buy, the house that has had a very low assessment for many years suddenly sees its assessment jacked up (sometimes doubled or tripled) based on your purchase price alone. It's not legal, as it saddles you with an inequiable burden of tax, but it's done all the time. The property taxes in Hudson (which needs lots of money as it's the County seat, with lots of patronage jobs and social services to pay for, in an economy in which there's very little private sector employment) can be astronomical - and the school system is hopeless, despite school taxes rivaling those in Westchester.

That having been said, though its local politics are a swamp, Hudson has a lot of interesting residents and can be fun if you don't mind everyone minding your business (and probably knowing it, as the City is so small). But if you're a couple with a kid to send to school and don't have a ton of disposable income, don't buy in Hudson.

Posted by: guest at May 31, 2008 8:03 AM

I'm a born and raised Brooklyn native so it was really, REALLY hard to admit that my dream of a brownstone or town/row homes wasn't going to happen since simply put, I'm priced out. My husband (born and raised on the L.E.S)and I made the decision to take advantage of the fantastic deals you can still get on brownstones and brick townhouses in Jersey City. Our taxes are significantly higher but we just purchased a 3 story single family brick townhouse built in 1890 for under 360K (we've only had to put in an additional 23K in reno.:roof, electric, minor re-pointing). All original detail intact. We're right near the Path train to WTC it takes me less than 1/2 hour door to door to get to work downtown (train itself is 13 min.).
Please don't beat me up too hard. Understand, if I could have stayed in Brooklyn I would have. I just wanted people to know that if finances are somewhat limited there are other options than moving into a teeny condo. It's still possible to have a backyard for the kids to play in.
I gotta say it was a hard to sell me on the idea at first but overall this really is a great place to live.
Thanks to Brownstoner for such a great website. You've been my "go to" guide for so many of the projects we had going on when we made the purchase!
(You can take the girl out of Brooklyn but you can't take the Brooklyn out of the girl)

Posted by: guest at May 31, 2008 10:19 AM

Junkman,

We also jut bough at Toren, one of the smaller 1 bedrooms. However, we paid slightly over $700/sqft. If you don't mind me asking, what line of 1 bedroom did you buy A, B, etc. etc.?

Completely agree with everything you've said, Oro doesn't hold a candle to Toren (on paper). Really looking forward to see what it looks like once the curtain wall is up. And you've got to love the fact that there will be a drug store, supermarket, NYU campus and City Ponint (once it's built) a stone throw's away.

I think you're right, the risks associated with preconstruction probably drive prices down somewhat. Let's see if they (and hope that they do not) materialise.

Posted by: guest at May 31, 2008 10:30 AM

I'm quite impressed with Toren.

I have a few architect/designer friends who live in Manhattan and I showed them the Toren website, and they were impressed.

One even said (and keep in mind, I had to bribe her with wine to get her to see my newly bought co-op) that it was the first thing she's seen in Brooklyn that actually tempted her to move here...

Posted by: guest at May 31, 2008 12:09 PM

guest 10:19 where in Jersey City did you get a brick home near the path for that price? Seems very cheap for a home in Jersey City. Maybe in Journal Square. Either way good luck. Im in Hoboken and I love it. My mom owns in Jersey City and things are really starting to change. GOOD PURCHASE.

Posted by: guest at May 31, 2008 12:37 PM

my vote, old victorian on staten island close to ferry and vz bridge.

http://newyork.craigslist.org/stn/rfs/696771236.html

Posted by: guest at May 31, 2008 12:43 PM

You can have a backyard - a front yard too - with a porch in Brooklyn for under 1 million. Near trains and express buses. Not far from Prospect Park or Park Slope. Good Schools P.S. 217 & 139. Lots of good take out. A few restaurants. Ditmas Park.

Posted by: guest at May 31, 2008 1:04 PM

Good guess 12:43, we are in Journal Square, right off Lincoln Park near St. Peter's College with all the Victorian mansions on the surrounding blocks. It's actually changing a lot faster than we thought it might.

I know we were lucky for sure finding what we did but...I still look (all the time (it's such an addiction isn't it?) and I see a lot of gorgeous old brownstones and row houses in this area that are really affordable for those of us with "not-so-deep" pockets (please, no comments about being cheap, we're just trying to live within our means without sacrificing on architectural details or a swing-set for the tikes).

Posted by: guest at May 31, 2008 3:10 PM

I'd buy in South Slope, but not in any of the 500 units buildings on 4th Ave. Park Slope is by far the safest bet. If you buy for investment then don't buy in NYC, but in Beijing where you can get a 2000 square feet apartment for $200k.

Posted by: guest at May 31, 2008 3:17 PM

10:41 what the hell r u talking about?everyone knows COMPSTAT is a bunch of bull.someone was killed in Marcy Houses last week.so wouldnt that at least make it two?

Posted by: guest at May 31, 2008 4:34 PM

Junkman,

Working abroad for the next few months, so I'm afraid meeting up is going to be difficult. I'll PM you (if this site allows PMs) when I get back.

Everything you mentioned played a role, but in addition I was trying to see what the neighbourhood would like by 2010-2011:

- NYU campus nearby, bringing in a ton of young, wealthy studnets
- A supermarket and Duane Reade down the road
- Citypoint, a block away, which will hopefully bring in a ton of useful retail, and catalyze the 'upscaling' of Fulton Mall
- BAM cultural district
- Beautification of Flatbush extension
- Police precincts were rezoned so that Toren falls under precinct 88, which also covers some of the other 'nice' neighbourhoods (e.g. DUMBO)

I'm hopeful that you're right and that we did, indeed, hit the jackpot.

Posted by: guest at May 31, 2008 4:45 PM

Ditmas Park is not under a million, 1:04. Two years ago we looked at the least expensive house in Ditmas Park and it was $1.1 million. Located way far out. Needed $300K worth of work. Tiny bedrooms. Nonspectacular details. Seeing that as representative of the most affordable house in the neighborhood made us look elsewhere entirely.

Posted by: guest at May 31, 2008 6:31 PM

6:31,

The relative word in your post is two years ago. Prices haven't dropped much but you can still get in Ditmas Park for under 1 million. The area is not "way far out" and is affordable, which of course is relative, for all of the previously stated reasons, in comparison to purchasing in one of the other areas mentioned in this thread. It was mentioned as an alternative to say Lodi which is way out there.

Posted by: guest at May 31, 2008 10:45 PM

Junkman, are you a partner at BFC???

Posted by: guest at June 1, 2008 12:46 AM

where can I gtet a mortgage for 6.02% ??? give me a break. ANyone that believes what bankrate says is a moron. 7.2% for Jumbo sure no problem. End of the day it's nearer to 7% for normal whatever you call it vanilla mortgages and jumbo is well over that close to 8 if not higher and that's for duh full doc. jmho

Posted by: guest at June 1, 2008 2:21 AM

10:34 comparing stocks to r.e. is just wrong. Wrong on risk: the odds of an index fund, the way that retail investors should invest in the stock market, going to zero are close to zero; if it did, urban real estate would be well under zero. In contrast, in a leveraged house investment, you lose all your equity if prices drop 20%. And prices in Brownstone Brooklyn need to drop more than that to be in line with construction costs, rental value, or comparable cities elsewhere in the region. Wrong on expected returns: doubling your money in 5 years in the stock market (unleveraged) is quite unlikely. Doubling your money in the next 5 years in real estate (leveraged) is far less likely than losing your entire downpayment. Wrong on taxes: the capital gains giveaway applies only to the owner-occupied part of the house. If you are using rental income to pay for part of the house, you aren't getting tax free capital gains (unless you are planning on committing criminal tax fraud).

Posted by: guest at June 1, 2008 10:06 AM

10:34 comparing stocks to r.e. is just wrong. Wrong on risk: the odds of an index fund, the way that retail investors should invest in the stock market, going to zero are close to zero; if it did, urban real estate would be well under zero. In contrast, in a leveraged house investment, you lose all your equity if prices drop 20%. And prices in Brownstone Brooklyn need to drop more than that to be in line with construction costs, rental value, or comparable cities elsewhere in the region. Wrong on expected returns: doubling your money in 5 years in the stock market (unleveraged) is quite unlikely. Doubling your money in the next 5 years in real estate (leveraged) is far less likely than losing your entire downpayment. Wrong on taxes: the capital gains giveaway applies only to the owner-occupied part of the house. If you are using rental income to pay for part of the house, you aren't getting tax free capital gains (unless you are planning on committing criminal tax fraud) there. And there is no depreciation on the owner-occupied part. The mortgage subsidy is real, and nice, but it isn't enough to make a bad investment into a good one.

Posted by: guest at June 1, 2008 10:19 AM

Doubt Junkman is a BFC Partner given his previous posts...

Looks like Toren also put together a commercial a la Oro (but a lot less amateurish):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=332nHNkLmy0

It's interesting that they haven't used it on TV yet (not, at least, to my knowledge). Perhaps business is brisk enough without any of that?

Posted by: guest at June 1, 2008 7:54 PM

I'd buy at Toren. It's the best value and the area has the most upside potential. DoBro will be a very different place in three years.

I don't care for that Toren commercial. The copy running across the top of the tower was eerily reminiscent. I think Real Estate and TV don't go together. Real Estate should stick to online and print.

I love the building though. It beats all of the other choices.

Posted by: guest at June 2, 2008 3:00 AM