Echoes of 1991 in Crown Heights?

Isn't it strange how history has a way of repeating itself?

brooklyn being brooklyn

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 9:09 AM

There was a recession in 1991 too. Hmmmmmm...

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 9:16 AM

let's hope the economy can somehow save us on this one otherwise bids for brooklyn property will disappear just as quickly as they came. settle in folks it could be a bumpy ride.

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 9:17 AM

Increase the peace.

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 9:18 AM

There was a recession in 1991 too. Hmmmmmm...

Too stupid to waste my time with a reply.

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 9:19 AM

Polemicist- you're an ignorant ass. I've loved reading your posts on Brownstoner because they are always good for a laugh. Your belief in your intelligence and analytical skills is touching but entirely unsubstantiated.

And since it's very obvious none of the rest of you self-defined pundits live in Crown Heights, you would sound so much more intelligent if you simply didn't comment. But since you seem to prefer media hype to real life, I shouldn't be surprised. It's the least we can expect from ego-driven, shallow, self-important but very mediocre thinkers.

bxgrl

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 9:31 AM

Ah, armchairwarrior- another poster who probably has sheets with eye holes folded in his dresser and a lovely picture of himself in a WW II army uniform. German army that is.

It sure doesn't take much to let the vermin crawl all over the blog. Good work gabbie- yet another racist, antisemitic day on brownstoner about to start.

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 9:35 AM

Yeah, 9:19, and crime doesn't go up on really hot Saturday's in August either. Maybe 9:16 identified a false corallary, but the comment is hardly "too stupid." Frankly, the much of the discourse on the blogosphere is just displaced aggression. If we couldn't insult each other anonymously from the comfort of our homes/offices, we'd all have to throw stones at buses too.

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 9:36 AM

bxgrl--

Whatever you think of Polemicist's in general, I don't see you saying anything to dispute the tensions between black and Jewish Americans historically. Take a look at the front page of the NY Times today, which reports on elderly Jewish voters in Florida and their knee-jerk distrust of Obama. You can write it off as coincidence, but it comes from a history of conflicts, particularly in cities like NYC where one group has moved into a neighborhood inhabited by the other. People can sugarcoat it however they want, but a 75-year-old Jewish voter looks at Obama and sees a black man whom they automatically assume is a secret Farrakhan. There is no point pretending these kind of attitudes don't exist, awful as they are.

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 9:43 AM

[looks at watch]

Hey, shouldn't Montrose Morris have come by to tell us that everything's fine in Crown Heights by now?

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 9:46 AM

I don't deny it exists- but the issue is the wholesale labelling of groups, not individuals. there are Blacks who hate whites- but the whole issue is presented lopsidedly and frankly polemecist is not trying to enlighten anyone. He is venting. He also makes no mention of the Black and Jewish groups and individuals who have been working since 1991 to make things better, and despite incidents, they are better. Not perfect, but better. Yes, tensions exist- and so does a lot of cooperation and communication. that's what polemicist and plenty of other posters like him won't tell you. they have too much fun being web nazis.
bxgrl

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 9:55 AM

9:43- and yet there are literally thousands of Jewish people supporting Obama, and Jewish groups that have gone to bat for him. I don't see you mentioning those.

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 9:56 AM

Here's a great article about the Shmira's role in the community: http://newvoices.org/features/rolling-with-the-shmira.html

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 10:03 AM

I'm from the area and Blacks and Jews do co-exist in relative peace. Over the past 40 years there hasn't been a ongoing WAR. That's why events like the '91 uprising and the current headlines standout. There's always been a slight tension. The Black people feel that the Jews receive special privileges from the police and government agencies. I'm not sure what the Jews think, but I'm sure some of it aint good.

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 10:05 AM

Polemicist - eat your breakfast, you're having a glucose slump or something. "Next level"? She's responding to your HUGE generalisations, not waving a gun around.

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 10:25 AM

And please shall we not throw around more "Jews hate Black People" garbage; I had enough of that in the Times this morning.

Jews and People of Color worked hand and hand to build the civil rights movement upon which so many of us stand today.

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 10:37 AM

Sad stuff.

When I moved from Manhattan to Brooklyn last year, Crown Heights was one of the first neighborhoods I crossed off my list.

When someone asked me why, I said "The people there hate each other."

:(

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 11:11 AM

i hate when people focus on entire groups of people, instead of the handful of low-life individuals that are causing the problems....not realizing this is what causes racial riots.

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 11:14 AM

boxgrl, all you ever do on here is attack other people's intelligence, without actually connecting it to anything they say, and other nothing other than the worn and tired yourself. You are just calling names, and have nothing to back up your categorizations.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and guess that you have a huge chip on your shoulder about your own intelligence.

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 11:23 AM

That Hassis are the filthiest, dirtiest bunch of racist grubs I've ever encountered. They should migrate to Israel. Inbreds is what they are. I'm wit the blacks on dis one, son.

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 11:30 AM

11.11 Just curious, what evidence did you have to make this statement? Did you meet anyone in Crown Heights that said "I hate my neighbors"? If so, did you ask them why they continue to live around people they hate?

Or did you just assume that the black folks had to hate the Jews who live here and the Jews, of course, couldn't stand the black folks who live next door, down the block and across the street from them?

Do you even know what's going on in CH?

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 11:34 AM

Just wondering, was any explanation ever offered as to *why* the black kid was pulled off the bicycle and beaten? I remember that the kid was the son of a cop -- but what possible justification was offered?

This is what really bothers me. People taking the law, or what they perceive to be the law, into their own hands.

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 11:40 AM

I find this article curious. The other truth about Crown Heights is that it's the new Prospect Heights with yuppies moving in and two new upscale bars and restaurants and loads of people renovating their homes. (Abigail and Franklin Park)
Why wasn't this the story?

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 11:44 AM

"That Hassis are the filthiest, dirtiest bunch of racist grubs I've ever encountered. They should migrate to Israel."

You do realize that they are antizionists don't you? They don't believe there should be an Israel until the coming of their lord.

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 11:53 AM

Why do they have to guess it might have been Shmira? Why hasn't Shmira stepped forward and said "yes that was our people and our van who beat the 20 year old".

Here's my big question, Shmira:

If what you're doing is right and just, why are you having to lie about it and hide from it?

Because deep down you know it's illegal and wrong?

This is America. If you're here you're American first and whatever else second. And you live by the rule of law. Get with the program.

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 11:56 AM

"Just wondering, was any explanation ever offered as to *why* the black kid was pulled off the bicycle and beaten? I remember that the kid was the son of a cop -- but what possible justification was offered?"

Because he was throwing rocks at jewish kids. They take the law into their own hands because they are routinely attacked violently and robbed. The police are not doing anything about this so they have decided to fight their own battle. Jews don't keep asking for the help of others because their culture says they've not been helped by goya during what they see as their 1000s of years of persecution.

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 11:59 AM

11:34 -- my evidence is that they beat each other up and shoot at each other and that the reaction of many people depends not on "what was done" but on "who it was done to".

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 12:03 PM

11:53.

I just want those inbred grubby scummy filth out of this country.

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 12:12 PM

"I just want those inbred grubby scummy filth out of this country."

If I buy the ticket for you, will you go back to Africa?

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 12:20 PM

11:40 you go to the heart of the matter. A black kid in his own neighborhood is treated with callousness by another ethnic group as if he did not have the same right to be on his bike in his own neighborhood. Police officers in both the 77th and 71st Precincts act as if the perpetuation of racial bias crime goes only one way---Blacks against Jews. In fact it works both ways. When Blacks are confronted with Jew on Black bias and attempt to report the crime, there is a concerted effort by officers of both precincts to keep a "hands off" towards the Hasidim. In one incident it took an attorney/community activist with political and community ties to have an issue addressed. If he had not had the knowledge of whom to call and how an incident of this type should be addressed, the matter would never have been handled properly.

The problem is that not only is there a correct perception that there is favortism in bias incidents, there is a fact that police officers for whom we all pay taxes towards the salaries handle the two communities differently. A law abiding citizen be they be an adult or minor are in fact treated poorly by the police and all too often by their Jewish neighbors.

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 12:25 PM

Finally something worth discussing about, instead of strollers
......

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 12:26 PM

Crown Heights has been a hotbed of anti-semitism for as long as I can remember. Its Jewish residents, including me, are sick of it and there is a limit to what we will tolerate. If that means taking up arms to protect ourselves and our families, so be it.

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 12:39 PM

Mississippi 1948 = Brooklyn 2008

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 1:06 PM

I'm a black guy who's owned a house in Crown Heights since 2000, and who has lived in Brooklyn all my life. I don't have a problem with any of my Jewish neighbors in Crown Heights, never have had one, and they've never had one with me. I'm friendly with several white people in the community, some of whom I know to be Jewish. A Jewish guy owns the small agency I work for, and I even bought my home from a Jewish real estate agent. Ther are Jewish families living on the "black" (or north) side of Crown Heights and black folks living on the "Jewish" side. The communities interact every day. Does every black person feel the way I do? Clearly not. But I know many who do. I'm sure the same is true of the Jewish community - some may have ill will towards black people as a group, but I know several who are friendly with their black neighbors in Crown Heights. If we all can continue to treat each other with the proper respect, and not generalize about each other based on what group we happen to belong to, everything willl hopefully work out for the best.

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 1:08 PM

Why do Hasidic men on the subway knock over old ladies and pregnant women to make sure they get a seat?

Can someone please explain this to me...?

I see it happen almost nightly on my way home from work.

Literally pushing people out of the way to sit down.

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 1:09 PM

Mississippi 1948 = Mississippi 2008

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 1:10 PM

1:09: while we're on the subject, why do they always hit on youngish women? i'm in my 20s, as are many of my friends, and many of us have been hit on by hasidic men in the subway.

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 1:16 PM

1:16...Hassidic men are known to hire prostitutes quite frequently also.

I think it's cause their wives don't put out much.

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 1:19 PM

1:19...unsurprising if you think every time you put out you're going to wind up preggers. the broods they have!

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 1:23 PM

Don't I know it, 1:23!

I like to think I'm tolerant of most people, but every time I see one of those guys on the subway barrel people over to sit down, I want to scream. It's happened enough times that it seems to be a "thing" with them. Seems they have a total lack of respect for anyone but their own kind.

They will sit there, while a 80 year old with a cane tries to stand upright and a pregnant woman bursting at the seams stands.

It is a real turn off.

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 1:27 PM

If the jews want me take a side on this then I will side with Blacks.

Let's see - the jews at work are recists, entitled, rude, mean, evil, petty, and hate mongers. They'll lose every time.

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 1:55 PM

The only reason that the incident with the Black kid being assaulted by Hasids was brought to light was because his father was a cop who got 100 Blacks in Law Enforcement involved. The Hasidic definitely get preferential treatment by the NYPD which can create anymosity. However, the two groups do live side by side in relative peace and have done so since the Lubavitch sect started moving to Crown Heights en masse at about the same time that Blacks who migrated from the south started moving in. Although the relationships have been peaceful and cordial, there is little real interaction between the two groups with the exception of an occassional basketball game staged by community leaders. Other than these pre-arranged events the children play separately from each other.

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 2:24 PM

Grew up in CH
The irony in the conflict between the Hasids and the Black community is that they both have a sense of entitlement and feel slighted by the other.
Both communities act as if they own the streets when in fact they need to figure out a way to share which doesn't come easily
Whenever the West Indian Parade falls on a high holy day the Hasidic community wants it shut down completely, not just moved to another date which inevitably happens
The two sides simply have utter contempt for each other and it's been that way for a long time.
As to historic beefs between Blacks and Jews lets not go there. We had each other's backs during the struggle for Civil Rights. Even amongst the Jewish community in NY, there is distaste for how the Hasidic community operates. They just get too bada$$ to be around other people.
Can't we all just drink some Manishevitz?

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 2:30 PM

I got hissed at by a Hasidic woman in the Atlantic Terminal for walking with my boyfriend (I'm a man). We were not even holding hands. This was maybe 2 months ago.

HISSED!!!

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 2:43 PM

"while we're on the subject, why do they always hit on youngish women? i'm in my 20s, as are many of my friends, and many of us have been hit on by hasidic men in the subway."

This is not exactly a riddle for the ages.

Young women are hot.

Older women are not.

Next question....

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 3:07 PM

Some of those hasidic chicks are actually pretty hot. Given half a chance, I'd gladly slip 'em the old turkeyneck.

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 3:08 PM

Well, the day's almost over and we've thankfully been spared a droning 5000-word post by Montrose Morris. I can only hope that this continues.

My guess is that even Montrose Morris can no longer defend Crown Heights. So far this year, murders in the 77th precinct are up 80% and rapes up 116%. It's so bad that it was designated an Operation Impact zone and last year the 77th was one of only a few citywide that saw an increase in crime. Not a week goes by that RESIDENTS of Crown Heights don't post information about muggings and shootings on the brooklynian.com message board. Before long, the Bedford Armory will see an influx of dually-diagnosed ex-cons, which should do wonders for property values. And now, in the southern part of the neighborhood, several crimes between blacks and Jews are inviting negative publicity.

But I guess that we should just disregard all of this and conclude the Crown Heights is safe because, well, because Montrose Morris says so.

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 3:41 PM

Biff

2:30 PM here.

take it easy. if you are not rah rah waving a Pro-Israel flag you are not automatically an anti-semite. Some tongue and cheek stuff on a blog does not make for the 2nd coming of the Holocaust.

For the most part we are talking about the Hasidic Lubavitch community. As with the ultra-orthodox of any religious community they happen to deal poorly with people unlike them and that is reflected in the various comments.

Now hows about splitting a 40oz Manishevitz with me? We can poor out a little liquor for the Candy Man, Sammy Davis Jr.
C'mon.

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 3:44 PM

BTW CH is safer than it was in the 80s and 90s but crime is on the rise compared to some other areas in BK.

So it could stand to be safer than it is.

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 3:46 PM

I wonder how this situation is going to impact Black Bar Mitzvahs..

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 4:00 PM

3:41:

As you're free to skip Montrose Morris's posts, we're free to skip yours.

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 4:41 PM

i just skipped all of them. the times article was the most interesting part...not the drivel spewed from you "people"

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 5:22 PM

Ah, spend all day at a job site, and come home to this trash.

Wow, I missed all of this snappy repartee, and the blatently bigoted and sexist vomitus from anonymous teenage KKK wannabees, who seem to post more and more on this site. Seig Heil, kids, it's Springtime for Hitler on Brownstoner.

No, 3:41, I'm not going to comment on two articles that prove that hack journalism is alive and well, here in NYC. How about some articles about the new businesses going up in CH, how about stories about the growth of the communities on both sides of Eastern Parkway? How about a complete and total coverage of these recent incidents, instead of merely throwing gasoline on cooling embers? What about a story pointing out the real differences between the Crown Heights of 1991, and the Crown Heights of 2008? That would be a worthy story of cooperation, coalitions, and yes, problems both real and perceived, that have yet to be solved. But riots? NO WAY.

The racist spewage that appears on this site really went to new lows today. The comments about Hasidic Jews, as well as black people, here today, only reinforce in my mind the need for the alliance between blacks and Jews to become stronger again, not weaker. As was pointed out by several other posters, Jews marched and died side by side with blacks and others, to aid the struggle for black civil rights in this country. We have far to go to achieve full equality, where someone’s race or religion, or sexual orientation is just a part of who they are, not the definition of who they are. From many of the disgusting comments here, we have a long way to go.

Posted by: guest at May 23, 2008 12:09 AM

12:09 was obviously me. Oh, and 3:41, I forgot to thank you for the ego boost. I never realized I had that much power. I shall have to stand on the corner and make a pronouncement, and thereby make it so.

Wow!

Montrose Morris

Posted by: guest at May 23, 2008 12:14 AM

The Jews of CH remember 1991, when the the City (Dinkins) basically permitted a pogrom to occur. I don't think a "pogrom" from 16 years ago is a good reason to avoid engaging with your neighbors - it's certainly not justification for beating up an innocent kid. But, it does explain the Lubavitch insularity /weariness/ defensiveness/etc.
And while Chasidic men generally have bad subway manners (aggressively pursue seating to the point of pushing pregnant women out of their way), I see male members of many of ethnic groups, including the Chinese, Russians, Pakistanis, etc do this as well. And I regularly see Black male teens taking up two-three seats, using their PSP's with the mute-off, etc while a pregnant woman stands 2" in front of them. But bad subway manners are just a fact of life in NYC and the best way to alleviate them would be to run more trains so that more seating would be available (although, maybe the MTA should remove some of those stupid pro-recycling/"green" posters and replace them with instructions on proper subway manners/etiquette).

Posted by: guest at May 23, 2008 7:03 AM

Brownstoner: Please block posts from guest 6:53am. S/he's abusive and threatening. Thank you. (A reader, but not M.M.)

Posted by: guest at May 23, 2008 7:06 AM

7:06, there was no threat in that message (though I can see how one might read a threat into it). However, the post *is* abusive and the poster could rightfully be banned for that reason.

I will say, though, that if M.M. would just try to be a tad more succinct, s/he would not engender this kind of ridicule. I like much of what M.M. says, but s/he *is* sermonizing and most of M.M.'s posts are *three times* as long as they should be. M.M.'s post would be not only more pleasing but more effective if s/he would edit them down to a reasonable length.

A few thoughts offered for the good of the cause...

Posted by: guest at May 23, 2008 7:36 AM

703am here again to complete my hasty and half finished post: many of the posters on this thread are picking on the lubavitch for being insular, defensive, rude to pregnant women on subways, lecherous, etc. I think that is unfair. The Lubavitch are no more insular, rude, etc than any other ethnic enclave-dwellers in NYC. For example, if you are white and you walk through Chinatown, you are basically considered an alien. Merchants may try to sell you something, but that's about it. It's the same in Flushing and Sunset Park. It's also the same in Bay Ridge (large Arab population), Roosevelt Ave/74th Street (Indian population), parts of Ditmas (Pakistani), Brighton Beach (Russian) etc. I am fine with that because I grew up here and it's what I expect. It may be a little unfriendly, but it is also understandable because people are naturally clannish when they are new to this country, were somehow victimized in the past, etc. So why pick on the Jews?

Posted by: guest at May 23, 2008 7:52 AM

7:52, it's a fallacy to argue that, because all ethnic groups are sometimes insular and sometimes manifest subway rudeness, all ethnic groups are therefore equally insular and equally prone to subway rudeness. And while you may believe that Hasidic Jews are in fact no more insular and no more rude than any other group, there are obviously people here who disagree with you. They, like you, are free to voice their opinions. And frankly, I don't see how anyone can seriously dispute the insularity of Hasidic Jews. I mean, don't they have a full-blown intention to be insular? They simply are not comparable to a group of people who cling together for the simple comfort of what is familiar.

Posted by: guest at May 23, 2008 8:45 AM

7:03, thanks for your point. If people really want to go down the generalization path, I'm an mother with two young children with whom I had to commute to Manhattan from Brooklyn on the 4 train. By the time I got on the train, it was always filled predominantly with African Americans, at least half of whom were overflowing into the next seat. Maybe one time in those six months did an African American offer a seat to me 2 and 4 year-olds. To think orthodox Jews' behavior is any worse that African Americans or any other groups is crazy. As an Asian woman, I know about stereotyping - it's easy to pick on different groups. If the hateful posts here were said about Asians or African Americans, I somehow think people would be more upset than they are jumping on the anti-Jew bandwagon.

Posted by: guest at May 23, 2008 9:12 AM

9:12, there is nothing wrong with generalizations. Inductive generalization is the stuff of science. Without generalization, even our most rudimentary forms of reasoning about the world would be impossible. The problem is with *bad* generalizations, not generalization in general, and while you may disagree with the generalizations of others, we have no reason to accept that your generalizations trump theirs.

Posted by: guest at May 23, 2008 9:23 AM

faithful = M.M.

Posted by: guest at May 23, 2008 9:57 AM

Thanks for your support 912-1. A question for 8:46: by what method did you determine that Chasidic men are more rude on the subway (lecherous, insular, whatever etc) than other ethnic-enclave-dwelling New Yorkers? Also, have you made a comprehensive comparison between the Lubavitch community's insular nature and, for example, the South Asian (Pakistani, Bangladeshi, etc) community's? To me, it looks like both groups stay in their enclaves, wear clothes that make them distinct from the larger population, not mingle so much with other groups, send their kids to yeshivas or masjids, etc. These are hallmarks of an aversion towards assimilation and I (a secular New York born male from a mixed ethnic/religious background) am fine with that. You should be too. 9:12-2 makes a good point that generalization is a necessary and valuable reasoning tool that has its limits. Finally, the only generalization that I can make about pregnant women finding seating on the subway is that women (of all ethnic groups) tend to give up their seats more frequently, and often faster, than men. It shames me to see this.

Posted by: guest at May 23, 2008 10:02 AM

9:28, I'll second that. And I'll add that Montrose Morris's posts encouraged me to visit my old neighborhood, Crown Heights, where I grew up in the 1950's and that I hadn't seen in decades. That visit not only was a wonderful trip back in time but has also helped me put the neighborhood's current social situation in context.

There's more to Crown Heights than the occasional sensational crime or ethnic confrontation. And from what I was able to observe on my visit, day-to-day neighborhood life can be found on every block, where handsome houses and apartments have been restored and people's pride and investment in their community is more than evident.

My family's been in New York for five generations. The headlines we read today are the way some of them lived back in the day, when people crossed between blocks at their peril and were chased with knives and broken bottles depending on their race, ethnicity, or religion. (One uncle, nicknamed "Whitey" as a kid, still regales us with stories of gang life in the Bronx during the '30's. His best friend at the time? A pal he calls an "Afro-American" whose friendship opened him to associations with all kinds of people and helped him break from the vice of his family's and community's prejudices.)

None of what's occuring in Crown Heights is new, or limited to it. From my uncle's Bronx neighborhood, to Manhattan's "San Juan Hill" (site of Lincoln Center) and Brooklyn's Bensonhurst, turf wars -- vicious, wasteful, and stupid -- are part of New York's history.

I'm glad to know that saner heads in Crown Heights are working on its problems. And I wish the old neighborhood (and Montrose Morris) well.

Nostalgic on Park Avenue

Posted by: guest at May 23, 2008 10:09 AM

Montrose Morris = NOP.

Same long-winded writing style, one always backing the other. Dissociative Identify Disorder, anyone?

Posted by: guest at May 23, 2008 3:00 PM

Montrose Morris...it sounds like someone from CHRM doesnt' like you. Are they not the truth sayers of Crown Heights?

Posted by: guest at May 23, 2008 3:28 PM