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May 5, 2008
Broker Dreams Of Outlet Shopping At Revere Site
Good brokers don't just sell property, they sell a vision, especially when dealing with raw land or an area on the cusp of change. Red Hook might have missed this past gentrification wave but the sleepy neighborhood of 11,000 will no doubt be flooded with shoppers once IKEA opens June 18. Change is inevitable, considering IKEA openings in far less dense cities have caused deadly stampedes, rendered stoplights useless and clogged expressways so badly desperate shoppers simply parked and hopped the fence (things calmed down after awhile). Some people try to push back the tides of change, others surf on them. Massey Knakal director of sales Landon McGaw told us he thinks the neighborhood is ripe for an outlet mall and said Thor Equities' Revere Sugar Refinery site would be the perfect location. The refinery has been demolished, leaving a huge waterfront lot between Fairway Market and IKEA that allows 1.3 million square feet of development, according to Property Shark. "There's no outlet shopping in all of New York City," said McGaw, adding that he has a direct line to one of the nation's most prolific outlet shopping mall owners and knows developers here who have been mulling the idea. "Vorando, Related [Companies], they all have their eye on Red Hook." Just think, one day you could outfit your entire life for rock-bottom prices by visiting Red Hook's waterfront: Nab your pre-fab dining room set and bold curtins at IKEA; last season's J Crew khakis at Revere Outlet Mall; and gourmet fare at Fairway. See how Thor Equities responded after the jump...
Even if outlet shopping becomes a reality here, it would be several years off and we think it would run into considerable opposition. But like most suburban-style implants that offend many peoples' most basic urban sensibilities, if an outlet mall actually opened it would probably be buh-nan-ahs. We asked Thor Equities spokesman Stefan Friedman if the retail magnate is considering McGaw's idea (the above rendering, sans sign, was unearthed a while ago by Curbed and has a residential component). He responded with this statement: "280 Richards Street provides an enormous opportunity to develop something really special given Red Hook's ongoing revitalization ... We are therefore keeping all of our options open and look forward to hearing suggestions from the community about how to best develop this parcel." So, what do you think?
StreetLevel: Hook IKEA Opening Soon [Brownstoner]
Revere Dome Comes Back to Life in Shipping Mall [Curbed]
IKEA Openings Everywhere Leave Path of Mayhem, Cars [Answers.com]
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Comments
Red Hook has some great views of the city...and they want to put shopping there...not residences. I don't get it. Let's waste our waterfront on warehouse like retail stores that sell crap.
Posted by: guest at May 5, 2008 11:45 AM
11:45, the problem is that not many people want to LIVE no where near transportation.
That's the reason Red Hook still only has 11,000 residents. It is isolated and remote.
Retail is something people will be drawn to regardless of the lack of transportation. I think this is a GREAT idea.
Would be terrific for Brooklyn.
Posted by: guest at May 5, 2008 12:02 PM
Hey 11:45. Just where should we put retail. If Ikea and the like were building in residential areas, you would complain about that too. Maybe we should just have no stores in Brooklyn at alland we can just do all our shopping online.
Posted by: guest at May 5, 2008 12:13 PM
Love how they incoporated the old Revere dome in the new mall entrance.
Posted by: guest at May 5, 2008 12:22 PM
12:02 said 'Retail is something people will be drawn to regardless of the lack of transportation. I think this is a GREAT idea.'
If there is NO transportation in Red Hook...how are people going to get to the retail????
Not everybody in Brooklyn has a car.
Before they start devoloping Red Hook as the outlet center of Brooklyn, they need to figure out how to get people there to shop.
Posted by: guest at May 5, 2008 12:59 PM
Another reason to keep brokers from creating a "vision" - that thing is so but ugly it looks like it could be anywhere.
Posted by: guest at May 5, 2008 1:00 PM
I'm going to be sick.
Today: Red Hook.
Tomorrow: Wilmington, DE
Posted by: guest at May 5, 2008 1:03 PM
Allowing the waterfront to go to Ikea was the biggest fucking development mistake this city ever made. It is absurd to even consider following that colossal Doctoroff brain fart with more of the same.
Transportation has absolutely nothing to do with it. A large portion of the upper east side by Gracie Mansion (some of the most expensive real estate in the city) is as far from any subway station as Red Hook. If the city decided to let Red Hook go residential, a Walentas type developer with long term vision could turn this neighborhood with some of the most beautiful views in all of New York City into something really special.
To allow this waterfront property to become a big box haven is absurd and this Massy Knucklehead broker should have an entire bag of frozen Ikea Swedish meatballs crammed down his throat.
Posted by: guest at May 5, 2008 1:37 PM
That's the worst thing I've ever heard. Even Bill DiBlasio admitted on Lehrer last week that IKEA was a mistake. And it's one we don't need to keep making.
Put Big Box stores off 4th Avenue. (I can't wait to hear the hew and cry over that.) But Red Hook can be something special and this is a waste of valuable resources that could be developed in a more interesting and original fashion that also helps the residential part of the neighborhood rather than hurts it and appeals to people from other neighborhoods. (If you don't think so then consider why we don't put an outlet store on the piers at the end of Atlantic Avenue rather than the proposed Brooklyn Bridge park. That's actually closer to major traffic arteries and those piers are also under utilized industrial relics.)
Why can't we have the performance space that Joe Sitt floated at a CB6 meeting? (That was supposed to be one option for repurposing the Revere Dome, but then he simply tore it down.) Or considering the number of artists and arts oriented events in the neighborhood, a branch of a major museum. This could be done in conjunction with smaller scale, independent retail options, and maritime uses. Portside NY is looking for waterfront space to site their community sailing project. And they need a permanent home for the Mary Whalen.
Posted by: guest at May 5, 2008 1:53 PM
As long as each individual outlet store is under 10,000 square feet, this whole thing could happen as of right, without any public review at all. The NIMBYs would be totally frozen out. I love it!
Posted by: guest at May 5, 2008 1:54 PM
We ourselves don't have a car but literally every house on our block has one. People totally drive to shop. Whether Bloomie likes it or not. Brooklyn doesn't offer enough good amenities, that's the problem. I don't even like the groceries in Park Slope and Park Slope generally has the best stores in Brooklyn. So the city gives us no choice but to have to buy or rent cars to do our bulk shopping.
Posted by: guest at May 5, 2008 1:55 PM
"Transportation has absolutely nothing to do with it. A large portion of the upper east side by Gracie Mansion (some of the most expensive real estate in the city) is as far from any subway station as Red Hook."
Yes, but most people who live in Red Hook are low income and most who live on the Upper East side are filthy rich and can afford either A. Taxis or B. Drivers
I don't I've ever even seen a Taxi in Red Hook. They know they aren't gonna get much business.
Posted by: guest at May 5, 2008 1:57 PM
IMO the upside sown funnel-shaped reference in this rendering to the dome of the demolished structure is shameless--almost obscene!
Posted by: Bob Marvin at May 5, 2008 2:10 PM
Ikea should have been in the industrial section of Sunset Park, which is also where the American Stevedoring should be, which is also where and other big box visions should go. You know, like where Costco and Home Depot are, where you have easy access from the BQE.
Our only hope for Ikea is that it will be so frustrating trying to get to and leave the store that everyone will give up even trying. Although even if no one ever set foot in that store, Ikea got their money's worth just for the advertising positioning of that sight as the international community of cruise ship vacationers go in and out of New York harbor and their first two recognizable icons will be the Statue of Liberty and Ikea.
Posted by: guest at May 5, 2008 2:16 PM
Some of us on the UES did take the subway. My husband drives but I don't know how and never want to learn. Often I would Taxi it or once in a while use my uncle's driver, but the subway was always faster. I was on 86&3, just 4 blocks from Gracie Mansion and have friends who live right across the street from it and they would take the subway as well.The walk to the station was nothing at all like a walk in Red Hook.It was alot nicer and much quicker. Red Hook is the middle of nowhere.-Mimi
Posted by: guest at May 5, 2008 2:28 PM
As I've said a million times, Red Hook will be a giant bull's eye for much future big big box development so as long as the community is so divided - the houses v. the back, residential v. industrial, hipsters v. yuppies, trust funders v. drug dealers, santimommies v. old school families, renters v. homeowners, Bugaboos v. Gracos, McGettrick v. O'Connell.
It doesn't take much to divide and conquer a fractious community with so much infighting. Hopefully, the wacky villagers will wake up and discover three things:
1)the industrial types such as SWBIDC can help stop the proliferation of big box stores in Red Hook;
2.)If your going to see any major land use changes in Red Hook, O'Connell, the area's largest landlord must be at the table no matter what you think of him;
3.)Forget notions of the dated, pie-in-the-sky 197 A plan or Strober Brother's plan for the Todd Shipyard and come up with a realistic development scheme that includes small commercial and light industrial on the waterfront and upzones portions of the existing residential areas from R3 to R6 to spur a higher caliber of construction in the nabe.
Posted by: guest at May 5, 2008 2:58 PM
Mimi, 3rd avenue is not very far east in those neck of the woods. You still have Second Ave., First Ave., York Ave., and East End Ave.
Go to google maps and look at the distance from the subway from Gracie Mansion and then the distance from Red Hook. There are places in Red Hook where the walk is more and places where the walk is less.
Posted by: guest at May 5, 2008 3:12 PM
Brownstoner, why are some of my comments not posting?
Didn't you just spend billions of dollars and hours migrating to a new server? And at the opportune time of the flea opening so you would not have to worry about anyone trying to sabotage your master plan to take over Brooklyn?
Posted by: guest at May 5, 2008 3:25 PM
To the posters who think that the waterfront is wasted as big box shopping and should've been residentially developed, I ask: Who would be able to afford it?
Any waterfront property in Brooklyn is not easily accessible or is still industrial. And, if stores are built, shoppers will come. Everyone in Brooklyn doesn't have a car. That never stopped anyone from Brooklyn from shopping at the IKEA in NJ.
Posted by: ms sandy at May 6, 2008 4:52 AM
Is it just me, or does it seem like every developer in this city chooses from one of two templates: Battery Park City, or Orem, Utah? I think they should build a fence around Red Hook, pay the locals to act they they always do, leave the decay intact, and call the whole place "NewYorkWorld'85." Europeans would pay money to get mugged, movies would have place to shoot gritty films, and frankly, it would be a hell of a lot more aesthetically pleasing than anything tools like Joe Sitt are going to come up with. Unless, of course, he promises a blimp landing pad.
Posted by: guest at May 6, 2008 10:28 AM
One of the beggest problems in Red Hook is that a large portion of it is zoned industrial and, like it or not, industrial is a thing of the past in New York. Red Hook has fabulous views and could have fabulous housing, too, but for the existing zoning in the area (which makes it virtually impossible to build residential on one pier -- you need good residential throughout the area to build a residential base). With little housing other than the Projects, the Red Hook market simply won't support housing at numbers that are profitable, and developers won't build unless they can make a profit. So don't be surprised that, when the market won't support housing which is high-end enough to pay, retail becomes the only viable choice.
Posted by: guest at May 6, 2008 11:51 AM
If the MTA stepped in to extend the G line into Red Hook, this place would get cleaned up fast. It's a true wonder of the city as of now, and taking advantage of low income housing and poor transportation to turn it into a woodbury commons is a shame.
Posted by: guest at May 6, 2008 1:14 PM
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